Rapid Tapering from high dosage. Struggling.

[[da...]]

I started my tapering from Aug 23. My doctor didn't give my any clear planning or instruction. He claimed that quitting the benzo is easy and I can quit it within a couple of weeks. At that time I don't know about this forum so I didn't planned all the stuff properly.

I started with 3mg Lorazepam + 5mg Diazepam. On January 24, I went down to 5mg Diazepam only. That's where the severe WD kicked in. I once went down to 2mg Diazepam on late Feb 24 but the WD is getting worse, so I up-dosed to 2.5mg Diazepam on 1 March. (I wrote more on my progress log)

Now it is 2 weeks after my up-dosing but WD is not getting better.

DPDR 3-4 times in a day (last for a few mins), Balance problem (getting more and more), Muscle and Joint pain, Dry mouth, Fast heart rate & High blood pressure, Fast breathing.

Really bad sleeping quality. I still managed to have 5-7 hours a day but I wake up 3 times at least. I always wake up with sweating, fast heart rate or fast breathing

I am trying my best to maintain my life. Last weekend, my best friend invite me to spend the day together causally and I got struck by DPDR for a few minutes. WD is getting worse when I hang out (or meet/talk with anyone, including my family). My brain energy feels like draining after focusing and talking with them. But still I think I should keep communicating with others, to maintain my social life and avoid self-isolation.

Now I am on 2.5mg Diazepam. I really don't want to up-dose and I really want to be fully recovered. I really want to enjoy my life with my family and friends. Most of the encouraging posts in the forum said that the WD will fade away, so I keep myself to hold on. But the struggle sometimes dispirits me and I don't see much hope.

I have no clue what to do next. No tapering plan. May I get some help in the planning and also the WD? (especially the DPDR and sleeping problem). Thank you.  

[[ns...]]

dav867, hi!

Sore your having such a difficult time. 

I'm not the person to guide you thru a taper plan. However, I was wondering why you cut back your valium instead of the lorazapam. 

Many people use diazapam to taper off benzos like lorazapam because diazapam is a longer life benzo. Lorazapam is a short half life and usually more difficult to taper. 

Just curious.

I'm tapering lorazepam and was going to switch to diazapam for my taper, but I was already down pretty far with it.

It would be good to talk to someone here about this. Someone will be by soon I'm sure. 

Try to be patient ok

Take care

Ns

[[je...]]

Hi @[da...]

I'm sorry you're struggling. I have to go now and may not be able check in again in the next couple of hours. I have a few ideas. Please remind me to come back to your thread.

[[da...]]

@[ns...] @[je...]

I started with 3mg Lorazepam and 5mg Diazepam. I tapered the Lorazepam first and keep the 5mg Diazepam.

On Jan 2024 all of the Lorazepam is cut off, so it is just 5mg Diazepam. The WD is getting intense starting from that time.

Now I stayed at 2.5mg Diazepam for 2 weeks. I really want to complete the treatment and also not feeling too uncomfortable at the same time. But I am not sure how to achieve that. I think i messed up by tapering rapidly so I need some advice this time.

[[je...]]

Hi @[da...]

you sound truly miserable. I think you’ve tapered way too rapidly. Your 3mg Lorazepam is equivalent to 30mg Valium and you tapered that in 5 months. To give you a comparison, it took me almost two years to taper the equivalent of 40mg Valium. 

In benzo withdrawal there’s a thing called accumulation effect. It means your body remembers each previous cut and each subsequent cut builds on the previous one. If you cut too fast then these cuts catches up with you and essentially your body crashes because it can’t sustain the cuts anymore. I think that’s what happened with your last cut. 

If it were me I would updose and go back to 5mg. The 0.5mg you updosed is such a tiny amount in relation to your overall reductions I don’t even think your body is registering it. I myself have updosed twice and it helped tremendously to get me functional again and get my taper back on track. I don’t believe in unnecessary suffering. Usually when we’ve tapered too fast updosing helps. 

[[da...]]

Thank you for the advice @[je...] Sorry I reply you late.

I think the accumulation effects are really hitting me hard. I am not feeling SUCH severe WD when I am tapering the Lorazepam during Aug to Dec 2023. The serious WD all comes after Jan 2024.

I don't have a schedule when I tapered Lorazepam. I first reduce the Lorazepam by 0.5mg and let it holds for at least a week. If I get a week relatively comfortable, then I will further reduce Lorazepam by 0.5mg. And it repeats. At first it is not very unpleasant, but I think it was still too rapid and that is why the accumulation occurs.

I am determined to complete the tapering treatment. I don't wanna messed it up anymore, so are there a suggested schedule after the updosing to 5mg Diazepam? I read the Ashton manual but some BBs don't feel comfortable about it.

Thank you!

[[je...]]

I think for now we just need to focus on getting you stable again. It can take a couple of weeks or months. Then based on how you feel we decide what is the best way to proceed. There’s no one way fits all. Ashton reductions are often too fast for many people. We will help you with this last bit. You’re not alone. I just don’t like planning so far in advance when you’re not stable yet. 

[[da...]]

I think updose and hold on for some weeks is the best for me. To make myself stable from the rapid reduction in the past months.

May I know what is "stable" means? I don't think it means "feeling fully comfortable". Is it means that the symptoms don't get any worse? or there is no severe symptom?

I am going to record my feelings every 2 or 3 days from now on. Should I put it here or do it in my own progress log?

Thank you!

[[je...]]

Stable means you’re functional and you can do what is expected of you. You don’t necessarily feel good or great. I felt stable within two days but to avoid yet another accumulation crash I held my dose for 6 weeks to give my body time to recover. I do however think the definition of stable can vary for each individual. It will be good to keep a daily journal at home where you track the intensity of your symptoms. You rate each symptom out of ten and then you can track your progress. 

[[da...]]

Update in the past few days: 0 to 10 marks, 10 is the most unpleasant WD symptoms. I would mark the past week is 8. And the past three days (after updosing) is 3.5 (or 4)

The DPDR is still there but it is better than before. 1or 2 times a day and last for 10 sec.

Muscle pain and joint pain are also getting better. I can go outside and complete my daily task (buying something or so). Casual walking for 15mins. The sunshine and fresh air is comfortable too. I wish I can walk more but the joint pain not allow me to do more for now. I am doing some stretching to relief the pain. I hope it also helps my balance problem.

The blood pressure is good and normal. It is around 120/65. I usually got 135/75 in the past few months. The heart rate is a bit high. It is 75/min. Maybe it showed I am still a bit anxious.

But still I am struggling to communicate with people in real situation. I had some good chat with my friends on the text message. But it becomes hard to talk in reality. I feel nervous and anxious. My body will tense unintentionally. Also, Sometimes I am angry easily. That's the main problem bothering me now.

At least I am feeling better than the previous week, and I feel the hope that I can actually continue the treatment. I am afraid of the accumulation crash so I am going to stay for some weeks regardless. 

-Dav

[[or...]]

39 minutes ago, [[d...] said:

Update in the past few days: 0 to 10 marks, 10 is the most unpleasant WD symptoms. I would mark the past week is 8. And the past three days (after updosing) is 3.5 (or 4)

The DPDR is still there but it is better than before. 1or 2 times a day and last for 10 sec.

Muscle pain and joint pain are also getting better. I can go outside and complete my daily task (buying something or so). Casual walking for 15mins. The sunshine and fresh air is comfortable too. I wish I can walk more but the joint pain not allow me to do more for now. I am doing some stretching to relief the pain. I hope it also helps my balance problem.

The blood pressure is good and normal. It is around 120/65. I usually got 135/75 in the past few months. The heart rate is a bit high. It is 75/min. Maybe it showed I am still a bit anxious.

But still I am struggling to communicate with people in real situation. I had some good chat with my friends on the text message. But it becomes hard to talk in reality. I feel nervous and anxious. My body will tense unintentionally. Also, Sometimes I am angry easily. That's the main problem bothering me now.

At least I am feeling better than the previous week, and I feel the hope that I can actually continue the treatment. I am afraid of the accumulation crash so I am going to stay for some weeks regardless. 

-Dav

All you're able to still do sounds so good to me!  But I have to tell you I still have anger episodes and find I just won't suffer fools lets' say, because it's the truth.  I do mean in face to face meetings.  Maybe everything else is healing, and I'm still tapering, but maybe the anxiety is last to be healed, everyone is different.  But I don't put strict rules on myself when it comes to a "plan" for tapering.  I listen to my body, weigh out my sxs, and decide when and how much to cut, oregonlady, and it sounds you are doing very good, you are still able to function.

Getting back with people is a whole new thing after what happens in our healing from Benzo-brain I don't try to explain to those who have zero experience, including family, and very close friends

[[PE...]]

On 16/03/2024 at 15:56, [[d...] said:

I started my tapering from Aug 23. My doctor didn't give my any clear planning or instruction. He claimed that quitting the benzo is easy and I can quit it within a couple of weeks. At that time I don't know about this forum so I didn't planned all the stuff properly.

I started with 3mg Lorazepam + 5mg Diazepam. On January 24, I went down to 5mg Diazepam only. That's where the severe WD kicked in. I once went down to 2mg Diazepam on late Feb 24 but the WD is getting worse, so I up-dosed to 2.5mg Diazepam on 1 March. (I wrote more on my progress log)

Now it is 2 weeks after my up-dosing but WD is not getting better.

DPDR 3-4 times in a day (last for a few mins), Balance problem (getting more and more), Muscle and Joint pain, Dry mouth, Fast heart rate & High blood pressure, Fast breathing.

Really bad sleeping quality. I still managed to have 5-7 hours a day but I wake up 3 times at least. I always wake up with sweating, fast heart rate or fast breathing

I am trying my best to maintain my life. Last weekend, my best friend invite me to spend the day together causally and I got struck by DPDR for a few minutes. WD is getting worse when I hang out (or meet/talk with anyone, including my family). My brain energy feels like draining after focusing and talking with them. But still I think I should keep communicating with others, to maintain my social life and avoid self-isolation.

Now I am on 2.5mg Diazepam. I really don't want to up-dose and I really want to be fully recovered. I really want to enjoy my life with my family and friends. Most of the encouraging posts in the forum said that the WD will fade away, so I keep myself to hold on. But the struggle sometimes dispirits me and I don't see much hope.

I have no clue what to do next. No tapering plan. May I get some help in the planning and also the WD? (especially the DPDR and sleeping problem). Thank you.  

You made a huge cut and it's not strange you having problem. 0.5mg diazepam can not cover for the 3mg ativan you dropped. 

If you can cope, it sounds like you cam but having a fight, I would try to ride it out. If you can't, then up your dose.

This is sadly a long process. 

[[je...]]

2 hours ago, [[d...] said:

Update in the past few days: 0 to 10 marks, 10 is the most unpleasant WD symptoms. I would mark the past week is 8. And the past three days (after updosing) is 3.5 (or 4)

The DPDR is still there but it is better than before. 1or 2 times a day and last for 10 sec.

Muscle pain and joint pain are also getting better. I can go outside and complete my daily task (buying something or so). Casual walking for 15mins. The sunshine and fresh air is comfortable too. I wish I can walk more but the joint pain not allow me to do more for now. I am doing some stretching to relief the pain. I hope it also helps my balance problem.

The blood pressure is good and normal. It is around 120/65. I usually got 135/75 in the past few months. The heart rate is a bit high. It is 75/min. Maybe it showed I am still a bit anxious.

But still I am struggling to communicate with people in real situation. I had some good chat with my friends on the text message. But it becomes hard to talk in reality. I feel nervous and anxious. My body will tense unintentionally. Also, Sometimes I am angry easily. That's the main problem bothering me now.

At least I am feeling better than the previous week, and I feel the hope that I can actually continue the treatment. I am afraid of the accumulation crash so I am going to stay for some weeks regardless. 

-Dav

This is wonderful @[da...]! It can take a couple more weeks to feel the full effect of the updose, so hopefully you’ll see some more improvement. But a 50% improvement in symptoms in such a short time is really good. 

Some symptoms will be difficult regardless. In my case for example my insomnia never got better when I stabilised. I also understand what you mean about the anxiety in social situations. I had intense anxiety in conflict situations which I never had before but now that I’m off I’m doing so much better. 

[[da...]]

@[or...]

I can relate to the face to face meetings problem. I like to communicate with people, but I just can't do that in real life meeting. I am being nervous and anxious whenever I talk to someone. But I can talk to them normally via text. Therefore, I can still maintain my social life. I'm also too harsh on other people, just like the situation as you mentioned.

I'm glad that I finally got some relieves after a struggling month. The previous month is just so painful because of the accumulation. Now I think I should let things stabilize first.

I really appreciate the accompany from the community! That really makes me feel that I am not alone!

[[or...]]

25 minutes ago, [[d...] said:

@[or...]

I can relate to the face to face meetings problem. I like to communicate with people, but I just can't do that in real life meeting. I am being nervous and anxious whenever I talk to someone. But I can talk to them normally via text. Therefore, I can still maintain my social life. I'm also too harsh on other people, just like the situation as you mentioned.

I'm glad that I finally got some relieves after a struggling month. The previous month is just so painful because of the accumulation. Now I think I should let things stabilize first.

I really appreciate the accompany from the community! That really makes me feel that I am not alone!

Oh metoo on the company of others here, it's really my go-to for true interaction with other people.  I don't live where I grew up, and no family, friends from highschool. In a way that may be a good thing as people change, even without benzos. So this is where I get my more  1 on 1 communication and it's not so shallow like other forums, plus Facebook where I can't talk about this biggest thing I deal with, which is the benzo for now.

I can't agree more with you are thinking about stabilizing before you taper again, best thing I've learned I think, oregonlady

[[da...]]

Update (22-25 March 2024)
I would say the past few days are 3.5 out of 10 marks, comparing to the previous week 4/10. (10 is the most unpleasant).

I got a small casual gathering with my friends on weekend. I still had some good time despite the joint pain, fast heart rate and a bit hypertension are being with me all day. I am glad that the DPDR stroke me after the gathering and it is not a huge one. I'm satisfied with that for now. I am practicing on talking with them without being too anxious and I'm still trying. It is hard. 

I walked outside everyday for at least 20 or 30 mins. The fresh air and sun is relaxing. Also, I want to expose myself to outside and adapt it bit by bit. I can feel my heart rate raise to around 75~80/min when I was outside. It is a bit better at home, ~65/mis. Blood pressure is not always good. Sometimes I will get 135/75~140/80 and I knew I have to calm myself down. Usually 10mins of slow & deep breathing can brings it back to 120/65~135/70.

I got a Physiotherapy window to try to fix my joint/muscle pain. I've got several exercises to train my balance problem and muscles. I've just started it for 2 days. The exercises are long-term so I am going to be patient. I also got a new bed to fix my back pain. My bed is used for more than 10 years and the physiotherapist said that's definitely doing no good to the body. The bed starts to deform after being used for 5 years and it starts hurting my back. I am getting me a new one as Easter gift for myself.

I think this is the best week in 2024 so far!

-Dav

[[Ch...]]

On 16/03/2024 at 10:56, [[d...] said:

I started my tapering from Aug 23. My doctor didn't give my any clear planning or instruction. He claimed that quitting the benzo is easy and I can quit it within a couple of weeks. At that time I don't know about this forum so I didn't planned all the stuff properly.

I started with 3mg Lorazepam + 5mg Diazepam. On January 24, I went down to 5mg Diazepam only. That's where the severe WD kicked in. I once went down to 2mg Diazepam on late Feb 24 but the WD is getting worse, so I up-dosed to 2.5mg Diazepam on 1 March. (I wrote more on my progress log)

Now it is 2 weeks after my up-dosing but WD is not getting better.

DPDR 3-4 times in a day (last for a few mins), Balance problem (getting more and more), Muscle and Joint pain, Dry mouth, Fast heart rate & High blood pressure, Fast breathing.

Really bad sleeping quality. I still managed to have 5-7 hours a day but I wake up 3 times at least. I always wake up with sweating, fast heart rate or fast breathing

I am trying my best to maintain my life. Last weekend, my best friend invite me to spend the day together causally and I got struck by DPDR for a few minutes. WD is getting worse when I hang out (or meet/talk with anyone, including my family). My brain energy feels like draining after focusing and talking with them. But still I think I should keep communicating with others, to maintain my social life and avoid self-isolation.

Now I am on 2.5mg Diazepam. I really don't want to up-dose and I really want to be fully recovered. I really want to enjoy my life with my family and friends. Most of the encouraging posts in the forum said that the WD will fade away, so I keep myself to hold on. But the struggle sometimes dispirits me and I don't see much hope.

I have no clue what to do next. No tapering plan. May I get some help in the planning and also the WD? (especially the DPDR and sleeping problem). Thank you.  

I don’t know what to say other than congratulations for making it this far.  You’re solid.  Keep going.  🙏

[[da...]]

Update (26-29 March 2024)

Things didn't changed much. I will give 3.5 out of 10 for the past few days. Same marks as the previous week. (10 is the most unpleasant).

I'm glad that the DPDR is getting better. The DPDR strikes less frequent and also milder than before. 1 or 2 times a day and last for 10 sec. (usually at night because I am more tiring after the day) Also, I learned how to deal with the DPDR (more or less), so I am less scared and panicked (but still quite uncomfortable). I will sit down, slow down my breath and relax my body (especially back, shoulder and facial muscle).

I am trying not to be too aggressive when talking with others. Sometimes I still get angry easily or Sometimes I am being too rude. This is hard and I am still trying.

I keep my 30mins walking routine everyday. I think fresh air, sunshine and keeping my body moving are good for me. So I do it everyday despite the muscle pain and joint pain. The pain is unpleasant but I am still capable for a causal walk. Last week, the Physiotherapist gave my some exercise to strength my muscle and try to fix the pain. Those exercises are really really hard and tiring in the beginning because my muscle is very weak. (although they looked easy) I just keep trying in the past few days. Although the muscle and joint pain hasn't relieved, I can start doing the exercises correctly for a few sets. I do feel the improvement when I am doing the exercises (more) correctly and I can do more than before. i am happy with that although the pain didn't get relieved. But I think it is a long-term thing so I will give it time.

Blood pressure is often good (115/65~130/70). Sometimes it goes to 140/80 so I will rest myself. Still the heart rate is too fast. 65~75/min at home and around 80~85 when outside.

Sleeping is not very good (but not very bad). I wake up around 2 or 3 times at night. I got nightmare if the day was too intense. But still I manage to get 7 or 8 hrs everyday to keep everything staying on track. 

Thanks for the encouragement from the community! I will do my best!

-Dav

[[or...]]

38 minutes ago, [[o...] said:

Oh Lord, I'm having trouble.  I decided to just cut 2% which I can get that to the 0.98.  Then I'm lost again as my scale weight should "say" 0.98 mg??  I'm so sorry, my brain scrambled because I'm too used to just weighing out grams on this scale.  Oh kera'pppp, I'll just go a minus .002 from my .093 g weight dose   I just can't seem to fully understand dose vs weight, true apologies Ellie.

 

On 18/03/2024 at 11:41, [[j...] said:

Hi @[da...]

you sound truly miserable. I think you’ve tapered way too rapidly. Your 3mg Lorazepam is equivalent to 30mg Valium and you tapered that in 5 months. To give you a comparison, it took me almost two years to taper the equivalent of 40mg Valium. 

In benzo withdrawal there’s a thing called accumulation effect. It means your body remembers each previous cut and each subsequent cut builds on the previous one. If you cut too fast then these cuts catches up with you and essentially your body crashes because it can’t sustain the cuts anymore. I think that’s what happened with your last cut. 

If it were me I would updose and go back to 5mg. The 0.5mg you updosed is such a tiny amount in relation to your overall reductions I don’t even think your body is registering it. I myself have updosed twice and it helped tremendously to get me functional again and get my taper back on track. I don’t believe in unnecessary suffering. Usually when we’ve tapered too fast updosing helps. 

I can't agree more with a slow taper, I've struggled with 1 or 2% tapers, and holding each of those doses for at least 9-10 days.  Hold the dose your on now until you stabilize, the taper much less %.  That's what I would do. oregonlady

[[da...]]

Update (30 Mar - 4 Apr 2024)

Not a good week. I faced a bump. From 30 Mar to 1 Apr is 4 out of 10 marks (10 is the most unpleasant). 2 Apr is not a good day 6/10 marks. 3 Apr is terrible, 8/10 marks. Today 4 Apr is better, 4.5/10 I would say.

I found that sleeping time is critical to my symptoms. If I get too little sleeping time at the night before, then the symptoms will be severe in the next day. I only got 4 hours on 2 Apr night, so 3 Apr is terrible. It flares up the DPDR, anxiety and muscle pain at the same time. They interwove and make each others worse. It is a vicious cycle. I tried to slow down my breath, do stretching to relief pain and try to calm myself down, but that didn't help much. All I can do is to sleep earlier and hope for a better next day. I got a good 9 hours today and I feel much better.

Although I faced a bump, I still do the stretching and daily 30 mins walking everyday. I got my new bed yesterday. Hope it will help my sleeping quality and back pain a bit.

Maybe the last week is a bit frustrating. But I will stay on the track!

-Dav

[[je...]]

I’m sorry you had a tough week. I know exactly what you mean by sleeping impacting your symptoms. I’m exactly the same. I need to get a minimum amount of sleep or I struggle immensely the next day - it feels like my symptoms are intensified by a hundred. Unfortunately for me, there’s just no way to control my sleep. I generally get between 3-5hrs a night. Insomnia is a very common symptom and very difficult to manage. It just takes time. I hope things settle down for you. 

[[da...]]

I am glad that the bump lasted for 2 days only. Things are much better on yesterday and today, as if the bump didn't happened at all. I would say 4.5/10 marks for these two days.

That's odd... I wonder if this is normal, and what caused it?

I am not very confident to say i am stable. After all, I was going too fast in the beginning. So, maybe 1 more week of staying on this stage?

-Dav

[[je...]]

In my opinion it doesn't do any harm to hold a bit longer. 

[[da...]]

Update (5-10 Apr 2024)

This week it is averaging 6 out of 10. (10 is the most unpleasant) Most of the day in late March I got 4.5 or 5. I am facing some turbulent.

I will start with the positive. It is good that DPDR seems fading away and becoming mild. Blood pressure & Heart rate is getting better. And I am also way less aggressive than before.

But my sleeping quality is terrible. 8 out of 10. It is very difficult to fall asleep. Somedays I can barely grab 3 or 4 hours. But even if I got 7 or 8 hours, I still felt very tired. Muscle tightness and joint pain are also on the down side. The pain started on my left hip but now it is my whole back and shoulder. Maybe it is a WD. Anxiety also flares because of sleeping quality and joint pain. Anxious week.

Nonetheless, I still keep my daily 30 mins walking and stretching routine (and I enjoy it). I want to keep my body (and muscle) fit and prepare for future healing. I know my muscle pain is going to get worse if I keep staying at home and don't do any exercise. It helps the mental part too, kind of.

I want to change my lifestyle and do something good to myself, mainly in the sleeping part. Any recommendation? Also, may I ask what should I do to my treatment in the coming weeks? (or just to do nothing?)

-Dav

[[je...]]

10 hours ago, [[d...] said:

I want to change my lifestyle and do something good to myself, mainly in the sleeping part. Any recommendation? Also, may I ask what should I do to my treatment in the coming weeks? (or just to do nothing?)

I don’t know if there’s anything that really helps for benzo induced insomnia. You can maybe try a low dose melatonin. I sometimes use it but I can’t really tell if it does anything. You can look on the Insomnia forum to see if there’s anything that might seem beneficial to you. 

Regarding the way forward. I generally recommend holding for 6 weeks just to make sure your body has stabilised, but there’s no scientific reasoning behind it. I am just cautious especially with long acting drugs. If you do feel like you have stabilised within the next week or two I would suggest you start making cuts of no more than 5-10% of each new daily dose every two weeks.