The Long Hold Support Group

[[li...]]

Wow 100% stable. I know at least 80% is possible for me because I was therefor a few days before tapering. But I only held for four weeks. Also I tried to do this taper with Ativan and I was great before crossing over to klonopi but no way I'm going back. My brain can't take any more changes. Encouraged by all here.

Liza

[[Va...]]

Wow 100% stable. I know at least 80% is possible for me because I was therefor a few days before tapering. But I only held for four weeks. Also I tried to do this taper with Ativan and I was great before crossing over to klonopi but no way I'm going back. My brain can't take any more changes. Encouraged by all here.

Liza

 

There is nothing wrong with holding. It will only help. I'm at 2 months and still holding. Going to try an updose to see what happens. I really won't lose anything because I will be holding another month or more anyway. Might as well be comfortable. I was getting stable and took melatonin and it threw me back into withdrawal pretty hard ( I should have known better as it has a paradoxical effect since I started tapering).  You should be able to get stable on K with a long enough hold.

[[li...]]

Thanks Valley.

[[jr...]]

Wow 100% stable. I know at least 80% is possible for me because I was therefor a few days before tapering. But I only held for four weeks. Also I tried to do this taper with Ativan and I was great before crossing over to klonopi but no way I'm going back. My brain can't take any more changes. Encouraged by all here.

Liza

 

There is nothing wrong with holding. It will only help. I'm at 2 months and still holding. Going to try an updose to see what happens. I really won't lose anything because I will be holding another month or more anyway. Might as well be comfortable. I was getting stable and took melatonin and it threw me back into withdrawal pretty hard ( I should have known better as it has a paradoxical effect since I started tapering).  You should be able to get stable on K with a long enough hold.

 

I am holding at .0750X and think I may updose again. I took a hard lick by making a 25% cut. I updosed once already but I may again if my sxs dont come under control. Why do we do these things to ourselves?

[[Va...]]

Wow 100% stable. I know at least 80% is possible for me because I was therefor a few days before tapering. But I only held for four weeks. Also I tried to do this taper with Ativan and I was great before crossing over to klonopi but no way I'm going back. My brain can't take any more changes. Encouraged by all here.

Liza

 

There is nothing wrong with holding. It will only help. I'm at 2 months and still holding. Going to try an updose to see what happens. I really won't lose anything because I will be holding another month or more anyway. Might as well be comfortable. I was getting stable and took melatonin and it threw me back into withdrawal pretty hard ( I should have known better as it has a paradoxical effect since I started tapering).  You should be able to get stable on K with a long enough hold.

 

I am holding at .0750X and think I may updose again. I took a hard lick by making a 25% cut. I updosed once already but I may again if my sxs dont come under control. Why do we do these things to ourselves?

Because we think we can push it and get off faster lol. I've learned my lesson. I plan on a minimum of two years now. I thought I could do 6 months but there is no way that is happening if I have to function.

[[li...]]

Valley I thought you said you thought you were stabikizing at 7 weeks. Also I was told in another forum that continual updoses can sensitize you. I feel harder to taper from 1.25 than when I was trying to taper from 1 mg last summer. Has anyone else heard of this?  That at some point updosing has diminishing returns?  That was Ashton's whole argument--don't go back up if you've gone down. I also have more side effects from the higher dose so I don't think going higher would be good but everything in this has been the exact opposite of what I thought. My poor kindled brain. Thanks GP who prescribed klonopin for sleep back in 2002! 

[[Va...]]

Valley I thought you said you thought you were stabikizing at 7 weeks. Also I was told in another forum that continual updoses can sensitize you. I feel harder to taper from 1.25 than when I was trying to taper from 1 mg last summer. Has anyone else heard of this?  That at some point updosing has diminishing returns?  That was Ashton's whole argument--don't go back up if you've gone down. I also have more side effects from the higher dose so I don't think going higher would be good but everything in this has been the exact opposite of what I thought. My poor kindled brain. Thanks GP who prescribed klonopin for sleep back in 2002!

Hi Lizgal. I was stabilizing nicely until I used extended release melatonin. I didn't sleep for 3 nights after that and felt like I had been hit by a bus. I've never been that tired. I couldn't do anything. As for updosing, and this is just Reg Peart's opinion, it only works for Valium. I would not even consider updosing if I didn't have to work and write prertty in depth reports so I have to be sharp. I also have to maintain the family as my wife works nights. If I could, I would just hold until completely stable as I really hate updosing. . I will know if the updose works in about 3 days. If I don't feel better, I'll drop down again. It seemed to work the last time I tried to updose. I didn't have the reaction I was looking for, so I dropped back down but stabilized quickly after that. I really wish I could just hold and ride it out but know I can't keep it up after this setback. I really think in your case (as a poster on an Internet forum so I'm no expert lol), a long hold will bring you out of it. I now think of long holds as 3 months or more or at the point where you feel good enough to cut again. Funny you mention, you have more side effects at a higher dose of K. I've read many others who have the same issue when updosing K.

[[li...]]

Valley--I was a freelance writer for 12 years before I had to quit last summer because my benzo brain got so bad. I tried melatonin before my reinstatement and woke up feeling like I had a concussion. Thanks for sharing. I've also heard that Reg Peart says that average time for hitting tolerance when holding in withdrawal is 2 months but most stories I've heard of stabilizing say it takes between 2 and 3. The side effects make holding hard because you want so badly to be rid of them. Maybe it's cuz I'm not stable and when I get stable that will be better too. No idea. Take care!

Liza

Oh and come to think of it when I first reinstated on ativan in early 2015, i tapered too fast and updosed against my own opinion and totally stabilized and felt great. The klonopin crossover was a huge mistake IMO

[[Va...]]

Valley--I was a freelance writer for 12 years before I had to quit last summer because my benzo brain got so bad. I tried melatonin before my reinstatement and woke up feeling like I had a concussion. Thanks for sharing. I've also heard that Reg Peart says that average time for hitting tolerance when holding in withdrawal is 2 months but most stories I've heard of stabilizing say it takes between 2 and 3. The side effects make holding hard because you want so badly to be rid of them. Maybe it's cuz I'm not stable and when I get stable that will be better too. No idea. Take care!

Liza

Oh and come to think of it when I first reinstated on ativan in early 2015, i tapered too fast and updosed against my own opinion and totally stabilized and felt great. The klonopin crossover was a huge mistake IMO

Here are some quotes that may help wth the concept of tolerance:

 

"Tolerance withdrawal" is a phrase that's tossed around a lot and usually, in my opinion, used wrongly. In fact most of the time I think it's referring to prolonged withdrawal symptoms. In fact I don't think you can really use the phrase "tolerance withdrawal" during a taper, because by definition tolerance withdrawal is something that happens when you're taking steady ongoing doses of a benzo.

 

However, Klonopin is kind of notorious for causing a kind of delayed withdrawal with holds that might be related to the tolerance withdrawal phenomenon."

 

"Yeah, the way "tolerance withdrawal' is bandied about on the benzo boards (try saying that five times really fast) drives me nuts. Especially since like you said, it's usually used to scare people into keeping cutting faster, which is almost always the opposite of what they need to be doing. VERY rarely is "just keep cutting" the right answer. Drives me nuts. Feels like I'm always the voice in the wilderness on that one. People go too fast, get into withdrawal, hold for a short time; their symptoms get worse (unrelated to the hold, it's just ongoing withdrawal from going too fast before); they get told they're in "tolerance withdrawal" and they need to start cutting again. Yet when someone CTs and has prolonged withdrawal for months or years, nobody says it's "tolerance withdrawal", because obviously that's impossible if you aren't taking the drug. What's called tolerance withdrawal is almost always just plain delayed withdrawal symptoms which are pretty much universal with benzos. Benzos are notoriously up and down and nonlinear and long and drawn out, in withdrawal. Okay, thanks for letting me rant about that. The whole thing drives me nuts (she says for the third time). "

 

Makes sense to me.

 

 

[[li...]]

So this says I'm screwed by holding on klonopin?  Who said this?  What does this mean?  I'm supposed to hold longer or shorter. Dear God I have no idea who or what to believe anymore.

[[Va...]]

So this says I'm screwed by holding on klonopin?  Who said this?  What does this mean?  I'm supposed to hold longer or shorter. Dear God I have no idea who or what to believe anymore.

Not at all lol. Re-read it. The poster states that K is notorious for delayed withdrawal which is then attributed to tolerance when it's just delayed withdrawal.

 

I know I thought the same thing as you when I first read it and then read it again and got the meaning of the poster.

[[li...]]

So how do you know if you've held too long?  Im praying it gets better than this. I have a friend who is microtapering Valium and she stabilized at 2 months after a crash and wanted to enjoy it for a while so held for another two weeks and says she crashed in tolerance because things got horrid. But she had also been taking steroids, antibiotics and an inhaler for an infection so who knows. Thanks Valley

[[Va...]]

So how do you know if you've held too long?  Im praying it gets better than this. I have a friend who is microtapering Valium and she stabilized at 2 months after a crash and wanted to enjoy it for a while so held for another two weeks and says she crashed in tolerance because things got horrid. But she had also been taking steroids, antibiotics and an inhaler for an infection so who knows. Thanks Valley

It's so hard to say with benzos. So many things interact. The only thing I have is anecdotal evidence that long holds are good. I've seen holds anywhere from 3 months to a year and those that held said it was the best thing they ever did and some were able to actually move faster in their tapering. I no longer believe you can hold too long (although I used to believe it). You can't cut when you're symptomatic or you will be symptomatic all the way down. It wears on you mentally. The only exception would be toxicity which is rare. I really believe you cut when you feel ready however long that may be. Try not to add stress by overthinking it. You may experience some bumps, but that's how this works. They do begin to diminish in a hold. Mine did. I was just stupid enough to use melatonin which I know doesn't work for me. It threw me back into horrible withdrawal. The nerve pain is slowly going away. That is one of my worst symptoms. When it ramps up, it's hard to do anything. I'm still holding at over 2 months now.  I believe we follow the pattern of those who have acute withdrawal when cutting too fast or letting symptoms of our taper catch up to us so it only makes sense that in time symptoms will abate (my personal theory).

[[li...]]

Thanks for your thorough responses Valley!  I'm praying that a long hold will indeed allow me to go faster. I pray it works for me like it has for others and not that my brain and body don't just hate the brain damage that klonopin feels like it's causing. But I'm holding on to the fact that I had days before I tapered that were a lot easier and I could actually drive and go places and work and walk and had much much hope and actually less side effects. I'm holding on to that as proof that my brain can get back there. I've only gone from 1.25 mg to 1.20 mg in 5 months so I can't imagine I can't get back there.

Have a good day

Liza

[[fr...]]

  I think the same thing happens with Valium,  I don't get hit until around 8 or 9 days post cut and then it just gets worse and worse.  This last small cut I made was awful, the burning intensified and the nausea, oh it was so awful.  The nausea finally started to lift at around a month out from the cut but is still there only not all the time and not so bad.  Also the burning is back full force but comes and goes.  I'll have a good day and then a bad day.  I am going to hold another few weeks to a month and see if I can stabilize some more.  We just have to do what feels the best for our bodies and I will never believe that cutting when you are in agony will help anything. 

[[4G...]]

Thanks for starting this thread, Oscar.

 

I was on 15mg of Valium and am now down to 8.5mg.

 

But it seems to be taking forever. While most people I see on here seem to be able to reduce by 1mg per month, I struggle to drop by 0.5mg. And I have now had anxiety and depression for five years.

 

Boyfriend has gone to see family over the Easter weekend but I am too ill to go. I have a Mental Health Appointment on Tuesday but I don't think I'm going to be able to go.

 

Why is it taking me so long?

 

Gilly x

[[jr...]]

IMHO I dont believe many people experience tolerance withdrawal. Withdrawal comes from cutting and a long hold will allow a persons body to catch up with the cut. I know of a person on here who did a 2 year hold without a problem. the goal is to cut with the minimum amount of sxs. If we can slow down and only cut according to how we feel, I think IMHO it will be a better taper.I was feeling good for two months and did a 25% reduction (stupid)and I am still trying to get stabile. We so often shoot ourselves in the foot by wanting off so very badly.Most people on here who stepped off fairly easy have done a taper lasting 2-3 years. I know there are exceptions but IMHO that is the general rule

[[Va...]]

  I think the same thing happens with Valium,  I don't get hit until around 8 or 9 days post cut and then it just gets worse and worse.  This last small cut I made was awful, the burning intensified and the nausea, oh it was so awful.  The nausea finally started to lift at around a month out from the cut but is still there only not all the time and not so bad.  Also the burning is back full force but comes and goes.  I'll have a good day and then a bad day.  I am going to hold another few weeks to a month and see if I can stabilize some more.  We just have to do what feels the best for our bodies and I will never believe that cutting when you are in agony will help anything.

I can't agree more. I cut 8.5mg in 6 weeks. I was fine at 7.5 but didn't wait long enough to cut again. I got hit at day 4, day and day ten and had what was akin to acute withdrawal. I've now gone through the waves and Windows pattern of stabilization, but even at one month holding, I was still a complete mess. I was doing well at 7 weeks and then downhill after a supplement I should have avoided. I updosed to 12.5 yesterday and will reasses in a couple of days as to whether it's working. I know it's a crapshoot at 2 months holding, but my main goal is to stabilize and remain stabilized the rest of the way down by cutting only 10% every 4 to 6 weeks. I no longer care how long it takes if I can do it symptom free or have very few tolerable symptoms it will be worth it.

[[Va...]]

Thanks for starting this thread, Oscar.

 

I was on 15mg of Valium and am now down to 8.5mg.

 

But it seems to be taking forever. While most people I see on here seem to be able to reduce by 1mg per month, I struggle to drop by 0.5mg. And I have now had anxiety and depression for five years.

 

Boyfriend has gone to see family over the Easter weekend but I am too ill to go. I have a Mental Health Appointment on Tuesday but I don't think I'm going to be able to go.

 

Why is it taking me so long?

 

Gilly x

I've adopted the harm reduction rule. No more than a cut of 10% of the previous months dose every 4 to 6 weeks (always wait until stable).  That would put your next cut at 7.65 which is only a .35mg cut (8.5x.90=7.65). It may take longer, but you'll feel better. Always listen to your body. It's usually trying to tell you something. Disclaimer: I'm not an expert, so my advice should not be construed as professional and set in stone. Too many variables with benzo withdrawal.

[[4G...]]

Thanks Valley Um ( love the name) but I don't really understand. I am doing a Valium vodka titration. I put 1mg of Valium in 100ml of the solution of vodka and water. Then I draw off 2.5ml every time I want to cut. At the moment I am really on 8.45mg of Valium.

 

I can't go out without having terrible trouble and I am sick of this fight after five years. I fear I will never make it and yet there is no alternative. All family out and about doing things and enjoying themselves. I do not begrudge them this but I admit that I am jealous.

 

How do my figures compare to yours? I am no good at maths.

Thanks.

Gilly x

[[Va...]]

Thanks Valley Um ( love the name) but I don't really understand. I am doing a Valium vodka titration. I put 1mg of Valium in 100ml of the solution of vodka and water. Then I draw off 2.5ml every time I want to cut. At the moment I am really on 8.45mg of Valium.

 

I can't go out without having terrible trouble and I am sick of this fight after five years. I fear I will never make it and yet there is no alternative. All family out and about doing things and enjoying themselves. I do not begrudge them this but I admit that I am jealous.

 

How do my figures compare to yours? I am no good at maths.

Thanks.

Gilly x

Yikes!  My math was off. 10% of 8.45 is 7.60. That would be a .85mg cut. Are you cutting daily?  If you're having trouble with the cuts each month, try spreading out the time between cuts to 6 weeks to 2 months and see if it helps. If you're cutting daily, you could do this by cutting a few days and then holding. Try to figure your symptom pattern and work from there. You should be shooting for very minimal symptoms on the way down. Never cut until you're stable.

[[4G...]]

Hi Valley Um, I am supposed to be cutting every day but it's not working out like that. I have been on my own for four days and it's been terrible. My boyfriend is coming back today, thank goodness. I think I will stick at 8.5mg. I tried cutting by 2.5ml out of 100ml but it's making me feel really bad. I am stuck in bed and I have a doctor's appointment tomorrow that I am really worried about because I feel too ill to go. Thanks for your advice. Gilly x

[[Va...]]

Hi Valley Um, I am supposed to be cutting every day but it's not working out like that. I have been on my own for four days and it's been terrible. My boyfriend is coming back today, thank goodness. I think I will stick at 8.5mg. I tried cutting by 2.5ml out of 100ml but it's making me feel really bad. I am stuck in bed and I have a doctor's appointment tomorrow that I am really worried about because I feel too ill to go. Thanks for your advice. Gilly x

Hope you feel better soon. Don't cut until you feel ready.

[[Va...]]

I've been holding for 2 months now. I had some setbacks due to  melatonin last week which brought on severe withdrawal with the worst being insomnia and neuropathic pain. In a panicked frame of mind, I decided to updose to the last stable dose off 12.5 last Saturday. What a freaking disaster. It was like I took an amphetamine so my two attempts at updosing have been complete failures. The long hold is working great. Once past the disasters of last week, I feel great! I can joke and laugh again which I haven't done for years. I will continue holding as I'm stable and functioning at about 75 to 80 percent but want to see if it improves even more.  I'm a firm believer in a long hold if your the lag time in a taper catches up with you. Good luck all long holders!

[[li...]]

Very encouraging Valley as I'm on day 30 and hoping for much better things.  Are you staying at 12.5 or did you go back down to where you were?  It's amazing that you recovered so fast from both mishaps.  Please keep posting every couple of days.  This holding thing is still such a phenomenon to me and I feel like I'm the only person in the world it's not going to work for (and I used to be the most positive person in the world).

Liza