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Caught Between a Paradoxical Reaction and a Withdrawal. My Theory of Everything.


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Posted

Caught Between a Paradox and Withdrawal.

 

 

Still just a theory, but with lots of reason and building evidence. It is not a "hypothesis". It is a theory.

 

In scientific reasoning, a hypothesis is an assumption made before any research has been completed for the sake of testing. A theory on the other hand is a principle set to explain phenomena already supported by data.

 

 

Two things are happening to people in so-called withdrawal. But it is important to see these two things as independent yet compounding events in those that have both.

 

1) The standard conventional withdrawal.

 

These types of withdrawals work well for taperers. People can even get off them with little to no problems if they are totally stable on the drug when they come off. I've done it myself in a matter of days (3 times prior to the abominable to come). Months of withdrawal, but it was never severe.

 

2) A reactive effect that literally does damage to the Central Nervous System that takes indefinite amounts of years to recover from. Occasionally it's permanent to a degree.

 

These types are actually not withdrawals They are "reactions", but they also include the standard withdrawal which happens simultaneously and compounds the problem like salt on an open wound.

 

People doing tapers during this are actually reacting more and more as they taper. And although the withdrawal may get some better as they reduce, the reaction continues on. The consequence of this is that people end up in protracted as the reaction is harder to recover from than is the actual withdrawal. Much harder. Also, they might spend more time tapering because they think that getting worse is a sign of the need to hold. Often years of trying to "hold" upon group advice.

 

Tapers usually make these people no better and sometimes dramatically backfire. People often mistake this for tolerance when it is actually a reaction that tends to build with the addition of more of the drug, and less so with less of the drug. Upping the dose may or may not help for a short period but would never get rid of the reaction. The reaction would continue to build. Lowering the dose would help "only" with the conventional withdrawal, but actually makes this long-term damage worse.

 

With this problem, taperers would be better in the long term with a cold-turkey or rapid taper, as it would leave less of a reactive state to recover from. However, the acute phase would be compounded as the pain etc from the reactive state is compounded by the loss of the positive effects of the drug as one heals a tad from the conventional withdrawal (the salt on the wound). Once the actual withdrawal is over, the protracted phase might go on for several years or more due to the damage from this reactive state.

 

The consequences of the reactive state:

 

The "much" larger problem here is the reactive state. If one remained in that reactive state for a very long period, the damage from the sensitivity of the reactive state might be nearly UNLIMITED.

 

This theory can help explain kindling as well. Kindling is a CONTINUATION of the reactive state, but only after that reactive state has been initiated. Each consecutive withdrawal would be intensified and take more time to heal from, and often MUCH MUCH longer.

 

Although reinstating may initially help, the reaction begins immediately, instead of delayed. The speed of the build in the reaction with a direct correlation to the addition of the amount of the drug intensifies and quicker sensitivity/damage becomes the norm. The result is typically a longer and more intense so-called withdrawal than the last, given that the amount of time back on the drug is not very limited. And often severely so.

 

This also explains the differences in the time it takes to heal. A cold turkey effect might produce longer-lasting protracted withdrawals only if the person had been reacting for a large portion of time beforehand. Even sometimes for years. In the case of taperers, they might be made worse from a "further" problem of tapering from this reactive state. Although they may or may not have an easier time getting off than a cold turkey (due to healing from the conventional withdrawal little by little instead of tossing all the salt on the open wound), the taper "Itself" may be an "ADDITION" to their reactive state, although less and less during the taper. So, as a result, these people may end up in a "several-year" withdrawal that may take much longer to recover from than many cold turkeys. And make all these other variables nearly trivial. 

 

As you can see, many of the phenomena here are explained that cannot be explained by current means.

 

1) Kindling

2) Why both taperers and cold turkeyers both end up in protracted.

3) Tapers are so unbelievably hard, especially near the end.

 

And much more...

 

The reason people get stuck on their tapers and "cannot go up" and "cannot go down" is the definition of "Being Caught Between A Paradoxical Reaction And The Withdrawal Itself"

 

The key observation here is "the people in these reactive states for the "longest time" and with the "fasting building reactions" in "so-called" tolerance, or on a taper, or both" would have the longest and likely most intense withdrawals regardless of cold turkey or taper. However, for some, a taper adds to the problem. And yet for those that weren't reacting heavily for months to years, a taper might certainly ease the acute stage allowing them to get off without a way more extreme withdrawal. Often is very minimal.

 

Consequently, a taper might actually "throw" a small percent into an extreme acute phase rather than cushioning it from the reductions. And this due to the direct damage from the reactive state.

 

If the theory is correct, "I DON'T AT ALL" suggest that everyone cold turkey, but I do suggest that people who were in tolerance and getting severe problems for many months or even years do not drag out their taper. The faster you get off, the better. But this is only true with "regard to safety". The acute stage would be a monster when combined with the damage done to the nerves via reaction. But avoiding the reaction might just keep one from a several-year, or worse withdrawal.

 

Posted

Hey 2b's

 

Long time  >:D

 

I read your post and to be candid, it was far more involved than my focus allows so I'm not sure whether the following is pertinant or not.  Speaking only for myself, in a nutshell, call it down regulate or something else, but I believe using Ativan, nightly  for many years slowed  down my own gaba production significantly. 

 

However the removal of that gaba product did not increase the production of/the gaba levels to go back to pre-benzo levels.  So, for me, there is damage to my original design. Which, for me, I believe may be permenant

 

Not sure what you call that or if or where that falls in your theory 

 

Hope you are doing ok  :)

 

WWWI

Posted

Hey 2b's

 

Long time  >:D

 

I read your post and to be candid, it was far more involved than my focus allows so I'm not sure whether the following is pertinant or not.  Speaking only for myself, in a nutshell, call it down regulate or something else, but I believe using Ativan, nightly  for many years slowed  down my own gaba production significantly. 

 

However the removal of that gaba product did not increase the production of/the gaba levels to go back to pre-benzo levels.  So, for me, there is damage to my original design. Which, for me, I believe may be permenant

 

"Not sure what you call that or if or where that falls in your theory" 

 

Hope you are doing ok  :)

 

WWWI

How long were you messed up before you got off? If you could tell me that bit of info, maybe I could reply to how it might fit. Any Kindling? If so, were you in a bad way when you reinstated? Your decription seems to indicate you were sleeping less and less before you got off. Possibly having other problems, too?

 

If that's the case, can you tell me for about how long? Any updosing involved to try to ease that?

 

As for me,

 

Almost 9 years off now. It's usually less intense, but I'm still nowhere near recovered. I'm definitely healed a lot, but from where I came, there's a lot left to heal from.

 

Wise, how do you reply with quotes? It's been a long time since I have been on this site.

 

Thanks, buddy.

Posted

Looks like you got the quotes resolved  :)

 

I know the fact that I was put on Ativan to sleep at ever increasing amounts and it having a short life meant that pretty much from the start I was having inter-dose withdrawal for the duration of the ten years.  Perhaps that explains why my mornings continue to be so bad.   

 

Honestly, my real question isn't about long term people who had or are having problems but in fact, is about those people who were on long term and then had no problem getting off the drug or afterwards, however they got off. 

Posted

No, I didn't get quotes resolved. I meant only to quote a section of your text, not all of it. I actually put quotation marks around what I was trying to quote. How do you choose a piece of the text?

 

Yes, this is what I thought. It seems that the worst cases, and those are often my old friends from nearly a decade ago, or longer, that are still in w/d were in so-called tolerance before. Stories just like yours. I believe the dose was increased regularly to cover a "slow-building reaction", and not tolerance withdrawal as Ashton and many others describe and is supported by pseudoscientific receptor theory. The reason your PAWS is so bad is due to that reaction you think was tolerance. It sensitized you "directly" slowly. Then under the positive effects of updosing, that reaction was covered up more and more. But it slowly built up again. Each time you did this, you were covering up an even bigger beast. And then eventually, that beast could no longer be covered up. You then CT'd and had one of the largest beasts of all. That's why you are around 9 years off now and reporting that you don't think you'll ever heal. Good thing you didn't taper. I know the months off after the CT must have been much worse as it quickly released that beast, but it also probably extended the PAWS phase and made it worse.

 

You were caught between a paradoxical reaction and the standard withdrawal from the positive effects of that drug.

 

That's exactly what my theory states. Had you been Kindled, you likely would have exposed all this sooner. Kindling is just a continuation of that beast once back on. And it continues to grow at an even faster pace until there is nothing you can do to relieve anything. Up, down, doesn't matter. But the longer you stay on that stuff, the longer and more intense the recovery will be. You don't need to be kindled for that to happen though.

 

You on Facebook, Wise? I could use some "mo betta" friends lol.

Posted

You got much of my story, but I did in fact taper.  Was put to valium and slow tapered off.  Valium never covered up the loss of ativan, but it did give me the opportunity to taper off.  Whether that was good or bad, or worse or better, all I know is that it sucked a lot. 

 

I do agree with you that the higher we go when we are in tolerance does just hide an ever worsening beast that when uncovered, is one if not the worst monster one can have residing in one's own heads. 

 

Not really on FB :(  But I posted in protracted today.  I'm better than I was in w/d, but accepting that  my CNS is pretty much as good as it's going to get.  Check it out if you want.

 

WWWI

Posted

Can you just send me a link? I have not been on this site in years. That would be much easier. I don't think I plan to stay here, but who knows.

 

Much appreciated. :)

Posted

Hey, Wise. I'll get back to this eventually. I have just been having less functionality. I also sent you a pm thinking you deleted everything, but you didn't. I just made the same post in protracted is all, and your replies are not on that one. Someone replied and your comments were gone, so I thought you deleted them. I'm not too active until this head and back clamp eases off some.

 

Just wanted to let you know. Thanks, bud!

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

I am a firm believer in "medication spellbinding".

 

This often adds to the time sick and reacting to the drug after the reactive state has initiated. 

 

The doctor and patient believe this to be tolerance, when in fact it's not tolerance at all. It's an iatrogenic reactive state which continues to grow unbounded with medication spellbinding as the reactive states continue to grow. Often this is mistaken for tolerance. But tolerance is when the drug stops working, more than the reactive state. This is overlooked by the medical field's inability to recognize this effect. As well as the medical societies of the world to admit its existence due to what admittance means in a courtroom.

 

Without proof, the only thing that could be used in court is "admittance". And sending out medical literature or even a simple memo to doctors of the fact means the possibility of a lawsuit due to admittance.

 

Since profit to these drug companies is more important to the health of humanity, this medical literature, or even a memo will not be dished out to a single doctor.

 

But this only becomes a major problem once the "reactive state "has been initiated. Until then it is not a problem.

 

https://connect.springerpub.com/content/book/978-0-8261-0844-9/part/part01/chapter/ch09#:~:text=Abstract,highly%20uncharacteristic%20of%20the%20individual.

Posted

Hey, 3W. I finally got back to your post and replied. As far as I am concerned, your limitations when being a winner are nil. <3 I left a short reply. :)

 

I also want you to know that even at 9 years (in a week or so) I'm still feeling like I am healing at a glacial pace. It's just hard to see. But acceptance is a good idea. I get it. <3

  • 10 months later...
Posted

How can one possibly read a taper with a dramatically fluctuating medical illness? One would surely mistake the painful peaks for cutting too fast. Cutting and holding as per these fluctuations makes absolutely NO sense as it's an independent problem and the rough periods are part of the fluctuations, not the withdrawal. They may be suppressed by MORE of the drug, but that runs the risk of making the delirium/TE worse as you cut again should that reaction not have been stopped by a lower dose or cessation of the drug completely. The fluctuations go on for the remainder of the delirium regardless of whether you are even ON the drug or not, much less the fluctuations while on it.

 

Attributing getting worse to cutting too fast would be a near impossibility for a rational person much less the diagnosed, of which many are truly irrational, to begin with. I don't mean everyone, of course, but there is a much higher percentage of this population that is. And even if one is rational, it's still impossible for severe fluctuations, especially if these fluctuations are severe. The worse they are, the more need people would think they need to hold. BUT worsening delirium is a DIRECT EFFECT which requires LESS of the drug, and not more holding until they get better.

 

And here (with the Ashton Manual) we see the flaws of so-called research into the drug problems of those with NO EXPERIENCE other than their medical literature.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

bump

 

https://emcrit.org/pulmcrit/recognizing-and-managing-paradoxical-reactions-from-benzodiazepines-propofol/

 

"Rarely do these drugs cause paradoxical reactions".

 

The above sentence is bull. These paradoxical reactions are quite common and are the reason why people are delirious for indefinite amounts of time. Sometimes even permanently, and worthy of a Toxic Encephalopathy diagnosis.

 

It is estimated that as much as 80% of people in the ICU have a form of delirium. Sundowner Syndrome, also known as Nursing Home Syndrome is more paradoxical reactions. And most people in nursing homes have experienced these paradoxical reactions causing their delirium/TE and no one wants to admit it. It's usually misdiagnosed and treated as dementia or other health problems. The evidence is quite clear if you google the right searches and look for drug-induced delirium aka Toxic Encephalopathy. This is very very common and the problem is getting much worse as time goes on.

 

I imagine ALL of the protracted population was having these paradoxical reactions and are dealing with chronic delirium aka Toxic Encephalopathy.

 

Google away. The info is there.

 

All the best.

Posted

Thanks for all your work.

 

I did a xanax CT about 15-20 years ago. I lived the crazy, got the PTSD I.D. card (fear of doctors mostly) was put on mental health holds, hospitalized, and generally pretty much raped by the mental health system and psych meds.  I had no idea I was on a benzo, or what any of it had done/was doing, except I was in hell 24/7 and completely out of my mind. Was called a junkie and a crazy by too many people to count. No one knew any different at that time. I lost everything.

 

Reinstated after about 5 years, inadvertently. I still knew nothing about psych drugs. I had no idea how quickly one can become dependent on  benzos. Still uninformed. A well meaning doc was trying to acclimate me to anti depressants who was as uninformed as I was to cope with anxiety, which I now know was a setback from floxing and a few other things. The anti depressants were intolerable, tried a few more, added xanax to cope. The xanax did not help. Dropped the AD, but I was now dependent on xanax again. It did little to help, took it to mitigate wd. I think its been 8 years on the xanax, maybe 4 on the seroquel.

 

Had no idea how to get off, apart from a CT, which at my more advanced age I did not think I could survive. Have been tapering the last few years, it is the best option right now. It took me several years to find benzo buddies, and about 2 more to start tapering more effectively as opposed to how I was doing it.

 

I believe that  psych drugs damage us. It starts as soon as we take that first pill. They continue to damage as we continue to take them. If we cut too much, the body goes into hyper mode trying to correct the deficit. I experienced this cutting seroquel. Cut it in half, and all hell broke less. That was in December. I reinstated, but am still experiencing the sxs from doing that.

 

SO having done CT, and now tapering, this is my anecdotal conclusion:

 

Doing a CT is overwhelming to your CNS. The act of removing the drug completely causes  more damage as your body painfully tries to figure out how to function. You also remain highly highly sensitive to set backs, from antibiotics to Tylenol to steroids, also, you are likely suffering from mast cell activation, which is its own hell.

 

Doing a taper allows the drug to continue causing damage, but also keeps the experience from driving you mad. I don't think any taper is easy, but for most of us, it is preferable to CT because of the intensity of going cold.

 

Either method is a reaction to damage caused by the drug(s) in the first place. However we get off of them, we have to find what we can tolerate, what is available, and do what we have to in order to get through the process. Then the after process.

 

If I felt like I could survive a CT, I would do it. Having done it before, and not being as young now, I don't think I would survive. I would love to be free of all the fear of refills, the gaslighting, the pharma abuse, would love it. But I can't go the way I would prefer. I also can not be bed bound at this time, I have many responsibilities I can not pass off to someone else.

 

It comes down to study, knowing our limitations, and making the best decision we can with the information we have.

 

Its a hell of a thing to have to endure, and robs of so much time regardless. It has eaten up years of my life. I am angry. I am frightened. I am in chemical anxiety. The antipsychotic has taken me from a trim healthy dancer to an overweight tired sick woman who is doing everything I can to have a life in spite of this horror. The xanax has done what xanax does.

 

Again, thank you for your work on the advantages of CT. Since pharma gaslights the millions of people it is killing, we have to study and collect evidence ourselves. This is a topic I see little study on, so I appreciate what you are doing. It needs to be in the lexicon of demedicating  with as much valid information and data as possible.

 

Be Well

-Dove

 

 

 

 

Posted

Thanks for all your work.

 

I did a xanax CT about 15-20 years ago. I lived the crazy, got the PTSD I.D. card (fear of doctors mostly) was put on mental health holds, hospitalized, and generally pretty much raped by the mental health system and psych meds.  I had no idea I was on a benzo, or what any of it had done/was doing, except I was in hell 24/7 and completely out of my mind. Was called a junkie and a crazy by too many people to count. No one knew any different at that time. I lost everything.

 

Reinstated after about 5 years, inadvertently. I still knew nothing about psych drugs. I had no idea how quickly one can become dependent on  benzos. Still uninformed. A well meaning doc was trying to acclimate me to anti depressants who was as uninformed as I was to cope with anxiety, which I now know was a setback from floxing and a few other things. The anti depressants were intolerable, tried a few more, added xanax to cope. The xanax did not help. Dropped the AD, but I was now dependent on xanax again. It did little to help, took it to mitigate wd. I think its been 8 years on the xanax, maybe 4 on the seroquel.

 

Had no idea how to get off, apart from a CT, which at my more advanced age I did not think I could survive. Have been tapering the last few years, it is the best option right now. It took me several years to find benzo buddies, and about 2 more to start tapering more effectively as opposed to how I was doing it.

 

I believe that  psych drugs damage us. It starts as soon as we take that first pill. They continue to damage as we continue to take them. If we cut too much, the body goes into hyper mode trying to correct the deficit. I experienced this cutting seroquel. Cut it in half, and all hell broke less. That was in December. I reinstated, but am still experiencing the sxs from doing that.

 

SO having done CT, and now tapering, this is my anecdotal conclusion:

 

Doing a CT is overwhelming to your CNS. The act of removing the drug completely causes  more damage as your body painfully tries to figure out how to function. You also remain highly highly sensitive to set backs, from antibiotics to Tylenol to steroids, also, you are likely suffering from mast cell activation, which is its own hell.

 

Doing a taper allows the drug to continue causing damage, but also keeps the experience from driving you mad. I don't think any taper is easy, but for most of us, it is preferable to CT because of the intensity of going cold.

 

Either method is a reaction to damage caused by the drug(s) in the first place. However we get off of them, we have to find what we can tolerate, what is available, and do what we have to in order to get through the process. Then the after process.

 

If I felt like I could survive a CT, I would do it. Having done it before, and not being as young now, I don't think I would survive. I would love to be free of all the fear of refills, the gaslighting, the pharma abuse, would love it. But I can't go the way I would prefer. I also can not be bed bound at this time, I have many responsibilities I can not pass off to someone else.

 

It comes down to study, knowing our limitations, and making the best decision we can with the information we have.

 

Its a hell of a thing to have to endure, and robs of so much time regardless. It has eaten up years of my life. I am angry. I am frightened. I am in chemical anxiety. The antipsychotic has taken me from a trim healthy dancer to an overweight tired sick woman who is doing everything I can to have a life in spite of this horror. The xanax has done what xanax does.

 

Again, thank you for your work on the advantages of CT. Since pharma gaslights the millions of people it is killing, we have to study and collect evidence ourselves. This is a topic I see little study on, so I appreciate what you are doing. It needs to be in the lexicon of demedicating  with as much valid information and data as possible.

 

Be Well

-Dove

 

I have never said there was an advantage to CT. I never would recommend a CT unless someone immediately started reacting to a drug. Only during very short-term use would I recommend a CT to anyone.

 

What I tell people is "It's like an airplane in distress. You don't want to come in too steep or nosedive and crash that plane. You don't want to overshoot the runway and end up back in the air with the airplane in even more distress. But you also don't want to take forever to land as that is just as dangerous as the other types of landings".

 

I'm not sure if you have read my full theory, but it doesn't seem like you absorbed it well, if you have.

 

All the best. Hang in there.

Posted
It depends on the person though. I only took 12 days so that's even under the manufacturer guidelines of 2 weeks and if I had cold turkeyed entirely (cut 40%), I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be alive right now.
Posted
There are many factors to consider, but taking longer than is necessary for a direct effect makes no sense for anyone. And this is regardless of other factors. If the drug is toxic, the person needs to stop reacting to that drug. That's just logical.
Posted
Depends I think. I have had times these past months where I get more burning skin after taking the drug and I kept taking it anyway cause decreasing too fast would have been worse. I've also had times where symptoms seemed worse right before taking the dose but I didn't split doses and that also changed again so no real interdose withdrawals either. I think it was in old posts from Valley Um that he mentioned he had some paradoxal effects to taking the diazepam but continued a slow taper so one needs to outweigh how bad those are compared to the alternative.
  • 8 months later...
Posted (edited)
On 09/03/2023 at 14:05, [[C...] said:

It depends on the person though. I only took 12 days so that's even under the manufacturer guidelines of 2 weeks and if I had cold turkeyed entirely (cut 40%), I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be alive right now.

What happens is you are "undrugging" the damage. The damage is not "withdrawal", but the positive effects of the drugs, ripped off the newly created problem (that lies underneath, but is so-called medicated) is going to be exposed. It's no different than if you took someone with cancer pain (like bone cancer) that was being suppressed by the drug and took all their drugs away. They'd go nuts too. But their bone cancer is not caused simultaneously by the drugs, so there would be no reason to do that. So, we won't see it. 

The actual withdrawals from these things are trivial. Taking the positive-suppressive drug effects off the problem, are not. THAT is why people feel the need to slow taper. But they need to stop the reaction causing the problem, or the problem will eventually get even worse, even if they are tapering. And if they spend YEARS tapering and cannot stop this reaction, they will be in for quite a long ride if they survive the end of that taper. 

This problem is a cellular one that is independent of the actual receptor up/downregulations (which are trivial compared to the hormetic problem). 

Edited by [Ro...]
Posted

@[Ro...] what you write makes so much sense to me.  I'm very frightened.  I started reacting badly to the benzo very soon.  I still do not know why those around me couldn't see I needed to get off the drug pronto.  I crawled around all day, violent shaking, screaming, terrible struggles to breathe, tore my hair out, banged my head, etc after updosing.  Finally I rushed the taper and the jump off was indescribable.  I am still struggling 5 months off although not to this obscene level. Am I looking at years then?  I've stopped shaking but still get anxiety pains in my chest throat and sometimes up my arms and legs

Can you explain how it is a cellular problem?

  • Like 1
Posted
On 15/03/2022 at 07:42, [[R...] said:

Caught Between a Paradox and Withdrawal.

Still just a theory, but with lots of reason and building evidence. It is not a "hypothesis". It is a theory.

In scientific reasoning, a hypothesis is an assumption made before any research has been completed for the sake of testing. A theory on the other hand is a principle set to explain phenomena already supported by data.

Two things are happening to people in so-called withdrawal. But it is important to see these two things as independent yet compounding events in those that have both.

1) The standard conventional withdrawal.

These types of withdrawals work well for taperers. People can even get off them with little to no problems if they are totally stable on the drug when they come off. I've done it myself in a matter of days (3 times prior to the abominable to come). Months of withdrawal, but it was never severe.

2) A reactive effect that literally does damage to the Central Nervous System that takes indefinite amounts of years to recover from. Occasionally it's permanent to a degree.

These types are actually not withdrawals They are "reactions", but they also include the standard withdrawal which happens simultaneously and compounds the problem like salt on an open wound.

People doing tapers during this are actually reacting more and more as they taper. And although the withdrawal may get some better as they reduce, the reaction continues on. The consequence of this is that people end up in protracted as the reaction is harder to recover from than is the actual withdrawal. Much harder. Also, they might spend more time tapering because they think that getting worse is a sign of the need to hold. Often years of trying to "hold" upon group advice.

Tapers usually make these people no better and sometimes dramatically backfire. People often mistake this for tolerance when it is actually a reaction that tends to build with the addition of more of the drug, and less so with less of the drug. Upping the dose may or may not help for a short period but would never get rid of the reaction. The reaction would continue to build. Lowering the dose would help "only" with the conventional withdrawal, but actually makes this long-term damage worse.

With this problem, taperers would be better in the long term with a cold-turkey or rapid taper, as it would leave less of a reactive state to recover from. However, the acute phase would be compounded as the pain etc from the reactive state is compounded by the loss of the positive effects of the drug as one heals a tad from the conventional withdrawal (the salt on the wound). Once the actual withdrawal is over, the protracted phase might go on for several years or more due to the damage from this reactive state.

The consequences of the reactive state:

The "much" larger problem here is the reactive state. If one remained in that reactive state for a very long period, the damage from the sensitivity of the reactive state might be nearly UNLIMITED.

This theory can help explain kindling as well. Kindling is a CONTINUATION of the reactive state, but only after that reactive state has been initiated. Each consecutive withdrawal would be intensified and take more time to heal from, and often MUCH MUCH longer.

Although reinstating may initially help, the reaction begins immediately, instead of delayed. The speed of the build in the reaction with a direct correlation to the addition of the amount of the drug intensifies and quicker sensitivity/damage becomes the norm. The result is typically a longer and more intense so-called withdrawal than the last, given that the amount of time back on the drug is not very limited. And often severely so.

This also explains the differences in the time it takes to heal. A cold turkey effect might produce longer-lasting protracted withdrawals only if the person had been reacting for a large portion of time beforehand. Even sometimes for years. In the case of taperers, they might be made worse from a "further" problem of tapering from this reactive state. Although they may or may not have an easier time getting off than a cold turkey (due to healing from the conventional withdrawal little by little instead of tossing all the salt on the open wound), the taper "Itself" may be an "ADDITION" to their reactive state, although less and less during the taper. So, as a result, these people may end up in a "several-year" withdrawal that may take much longer to recover from than many cold turkeys. And make all these other variables nearly trivial. 

As you can see, many of the phenomena here are explained that cannot be explained by current means.

1) Kindling

2) Why both taperers and cold turkeyers both end up in protracted.

3) Tapers are so unbelievably hard, especially near the end.

And much more...

The reason people get stuck on their tapers and "cannot go up" and "cannot go down" is the definition of "Being Caught Between A Paradoxical Reaction And The Withdrawal Itself"

The key observation here is "the people in these reactive states for the "longest time" and with the "fasting building reactions" in "so-called" tolerance, or on a taper, or both" would have the longest and likely most intense withdrawals regardless of cold turkey or taper. However, for some, a taper adds to the problem. And yet for those that weren't reacting heavily for months to years, a taper might certainly ease the acute stage allowing them to get off without a way more extreme withdrawal. Often is very minimal.

Consequently, a taper might actually "throw" a small percent into an extreme acute phase rather than cushioning it from the reductions. And this due to the direct damage from the reactive state.

If the theory is correct, "I DON'T AT ALL" suggest that everyone cold turkey, but I do suggest that people who were in tolerance and getting severe problems for many months or even years do not drag out their taper. The faster you get off, the better. But this is only true with "regard to safety". The acute stage would be a monster when combined with the damage done to the nerves via reaction. But avoiding the reaction might just keep one from a several-year, or worse withdrawal.

After a long time I found that my Paradox in withdrawal was actually the effects of cutting too fast. I learned the hard way that the first half of the taper is easy since I had so much 'benzo' stored in my brain, fat and bone tissues.  Cutting too fast just caught up with me eventually at the half way point. Myself and many others here had found that A long hold is needed especially at around the half way point of a taper.

  • Like 1
  • 4 weeks later...
Posted
On 15/11/2023 at 23:37, [[R...] said:

What happens is you are "undrugging" the damage. The damage is not "withdrawal", but the positive effects of the drugs, ripped off the newly created problem (that lies underneath, but is so-called medicated) is going to be exposed. It's no different than if you took someone with cancer pain (like bone cancer) that was being suppressed by the drug and took all their drugs away. They'd go nuts too. But their bone cancer is not caused simultaneously by the drugs, so there would be no reason to do that. So, we won't see it. 

The actual withdrawals from these things are trivial. Taking the positive-suppressive drug effects off the problem, are not. THAT is why people feel the need to slow taper. But they need to stop the reaction causing the problem, or the problem will eventually get even worse, even if they are tapering. And if they spend YEARS tapering and cannot stop this reaction, they will be in for quite a long ride if they survive the end of that taper. 

This problem is a cellular one that is independent of the actual receptor up/downregulations (which are trivial compared to the hormetic problem). 

I am in need of some advice/help with possible paradoxical reaction after surgery with general anesthesia. Thought at first it was reaction to oxy. fentl. and whatever was used which I still have not found out. Almost crisis at this point. I was 6.5 years off K. When I went into this reaction I took small dose’s 1/8mg, .250mg for the last 6 days. Total at this point 4-5mg. Now last night I took .250 and I freaked. Took another .250 and it did nothing. I believe it could be the surgery/anesthesia but when this last dose did nothing I’m lost and scared. I am a 70 year old male that took K for 20 years along with Zol and did a long slow taper that ended in 2017. Total of 3 years. Thanks in advance.

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