Benzo Taper please help Dalmane - Klonopin

[[Pa...]]

Hello,

 

I know this was not a good idea Pamster.

What do I do best now?

 

Its very difficult to follow your conversation since it lapses from English to German, please remember to use translate before you post.

 

I don't have taper experience but I can tell you that your body needs consistency so try to find a dose that allows you to function and stay on that dose for a few weeks.  Hopefully you'll find a dose of Dalmane that can do this for you because it's the better option than taking both Dalmane and Klonopin. 

 

Something you might want to understand is that the Dalmane will still work for you if you take the right dose.  The reason it isn't working for you anymore is because your body can no longer achieve the same affect at the dose you were on.  When this happens we must either increase our dose or taper from it to feel relief.  Your taper was too quick and you're paying for it now so in my opinion, the best thing you can do is to go back on Dalmane but at a greater dose than when you began your taper if your doctor will support it. 

 

Its unrealistic to expect the drug to work instantaneously, so varying your doses every day based on what you feel each day is counterproductive.  Decide on a dose, take that consistently for a week, if you don't get relief then increase it a bit and take that amount for a week.  Finding balance for your brain is a time consuming and painful process but we're dealing with powerful drugs and it's critical we do this methodically and carefully.

[[sl...]]

Its unrealistic to expect the drug to work instantaneously, so varying your doses every day based on what you feel each day is counterproductive.  Decide on a dose, take that consistently for a week, if you don't get relief then increase it a bit and take that amount for a week.  Finding balance for your brain is a time consuming and painful process but we're dealing with powerful drugs and it's critical we do this methodically and carefully.

 

Well said Pamster!

 

This is so true in my experience. Reactive dosing has caused me so many problems, but I was fortunate that I'd learned hard lessons about this ineffective approach before I became entangled with benzos. Tolerating day-to-day discomforts while aiming for a long-term trend in neurological stability and functionality is, in my opinion, the only way to reach functionality goals amidst the fallout of benzo tolerance and withdrawal.

[[Fa...]]

Sorry that I sometimes write in German.

 

I am now taking half a Flurazepam again. You mean I can just skip the Clonazepam and increase Dalmane? Clonazepam is very hard....

Dalmane goes up to a maximum of 30mg....you can't go higher than that.

Then hold for a week no matter if it gets better....

I know I have been jumping back and forth with the dose...this is not a good idea.

But my CNS is also used to 1/2 Dalmane in the morning....so it has been for the last few years....

So I'm trying 3/4 tablet to start or dierect 30mg.

It's hard for me to decide, if it doesn't work I'm stuck on a high dose. And the stuff no matter which benzo is just awful....

Especially the withdrawal....because of it I have now lost my job....I should have left everything as it was....

Is depression also typical in withdrawal?

 

Thanks Pamster, I am so sad that I didn't make it...sometimes I think that maybe a clinic would be better after all....

But somehow I don't think anyone who hasn't experienced it knows what this stuff can do.

 

Today I went to my family doctor and he said I should take oxazepam if needed.

How carelessly doctors deal with it and prescribe it makes me very angry and very sad 😢

[[Qu...]]

Dalmadorm it is sold also at 30mg per tablet with the advice not to take more than 60mg for a short period. I don't endorse such updosing. I'm just saying it to explain that going to a clinic for 15mg of Dalmane is rather odd at best.

 

As Pamster said don't mix alcohol and benzos. It magnifies the effect N times. You can't be afraid about updosing and blame your doctor because prescribed you an anxiolitic and then taking Dalmane and beer..

I've got some sleeping effect from Mirtazapine at 15mg. Unfortunately after one week it affects my mood. My doc said it's very unusual and actually many buddies found relief at 7.5-15mg, unfortunately it's not my case.

 

The only benzo you are taking at almost full dosage is klonopine, which is not an hypnotic btw. Dalmane half life is long enough to reduce klonopine withdrawal symptoms. It's longer than diazepam which is often used for benzo tapering. It's main downside is the fact that it cames in 15mg tables only, while diazepam e klonopine have liquid formulations and bigger choice of dosages.

 

I understand you're afraid of trying something different or updosing, but believe me trying to combine different rx drugs at too low dosages brings nowhere. Perhaps just stress you more and makes your insomnia more drug resistant. I know it because I went that way. Also avoid to draw strong conclusions judging by the immediate effect you have the night after. Relationships aren't so linear.

[[Fa...]]

Hello Quarantine,

 

In Germany there is once Dalmadorm in 30mg and Staurodorm in 27,42 mg which are also water soluble.

 

I know with the beer I have done myself no favor.

Now no one knows how high I have driven the tolerance.

 

Fear, I have since I have already experienced all the withdrawal symptoms that are in the Ashton and of course that I will never get rid of the stuff.

And at the moment my thoughts are only about tablets and Rivotril drops....

A depression has also set in since I was on 2mg Flurazepam.

Since the symptoms were bad...

It is very hard for me to make a decision with the benzodiazepines that is probably what makes it so complicated.

Kind regards

[[Fa...]]

Hello,

 

and thank you very much first of all that you are there and support me.

I find that totally sweet of you.

 

 

[[Fa...]]

I meant dear thanks to all of you!

[[Fa...]]

Hallo,

 

also mindestens 1 Woche probieren mit der höheren Dosis?

Ist es sinnvoll RX - Medikamente dazu?

Liebe Grüße

[[Pa...]]

Your question using google translate:

 

So try at least 1 week with the higher dose?

Does it make sense to do this with RX drugs?

Warm greetings

 

We understand you have a difficult decision to make and its likely to cause you pain but its the only way to find the best path forward.  Indecision is very stressful and stress will increase your symptoms so my suggestion is to make a decision and implement it.  No matter what you do right now you're going to be uncomfortable but the only way out of this mess is through it.

 

In answer to your question, we're attempting to help you find a way to get stable, this may mean going up in dose and I know you don't want to do that but if you're non functional then its a good option so you can get stable then begin a slow taper that will hopefully allow you to live your life while you reduce the drug.

 

Please tell us what drug or drugs you will be taking and what amounts, you can use this equivalency table to help make your decision. https://www.benzo.org.uk/bzequiv.htm

[[Fa...]]

Hello Quarantine,

 

do you think you can ever get rid of the flurazepam?

I got it from an addiction doctor who says that nobody takes it.

So for me the withdrawal symptoms were terrible....

Do you ever get off of it?

In Germany, for example, Flurazepam real and Staurodorm are currently not available.

Dalmadorm is.

I always had Flurazepam real.

I went to my doctor today, he says I can increase Flurazepam or even Klonopin....

Plus antidepressants...

Lg

 

 

[[Fa...]]

Hello Pamster,

 

I currently only have the option of Klonopin, which the doctor is very supportive of because he says it is easier to taper off.

Or Flurazepam, which I am also allowed to take....

And I should take an antidepressant says the doctor, because then the discontinuation of the benzodiazepines would be very easy....

[[Fa...]]

Hello Pamster,

 

I have not changed anything yet....

[[sl...]]

And I should take an antidepressant says the doctor, because then the discontinuation of the benzodiazepines would be very easy....

 

I am skeptical of this claim by your doctor. I have not heard "very easy" used to describe benzo tapering in cases of concurrent AD use; in fact, just guessing from my own experience on the forum it seems that poly-drugged taperers may have more trouble tapering than those only taking a benzo. Furthermore, I understand that antidepressants like SSRIs can have their own unpleasant side-effects such as an initial increase in anxiety, and their own uncomfortable withdrawal process.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/

 

I would be extremely reluctant to add any new psyche drugs to my body while trying to recover from the injury of others. I hope this helps. 

[[Pa...]]

Hello Pamster,

 

I currently only have the option of Klonopin, which the doctor is very supportive of because he says it is easier to taper off.

Or Flurazepam, which I am also allowed to take....

And I should take an antidepressant says the doctor, because then the discontinuation of the benzodiazepines would be very easy....

 

If you make the decision to only take Klonopin, what would be the dose you would start at using this table?  https://www.benzo.org.uk/bzequiv.htm

[[Qu...]]

And I should take an antidepressant says the doctor, because then the discontinuation of the benzodiazepines would be very easy....

 

I am skeptical of this claim by your doctor. I have not heard "very easy" used to describe benzo tapering in cases of concurrent AD use; in fact, just guessing from my own experience on the forum it seems that poly-drugged taperers may have more trouble tapering than those only taking a benzo. Furthermore, I understand that antidepressants like SSRIs can have their own unpleasant side-effects such as an initial increase in anxiety, and their own uncomfortable withdrawal process.

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/

 

I would be extremely reluctant to add any new psyche drugs to my body while trying to recover from the injury of others. I hope this helps. 

 

Without knowing what AD doc has in mind, it's difficult to judge him. Ex.: giving low dose trazodone is preatty common to ease benzo tapering, usually at a level which is not even considered antidepressant.

 

Btw now he's just underdosed. There is no virtue in going crazy taking drugs at low and ineffective dosage. And taking two benzos together increase the risk of cross tolerance, making cross over more difficult.

 

[[Fa...]]

Hello Pamster,

 

I don't know....

 

1,5mg is not enough...3, 4 or 6mg if that is enough I don't know... the doctor says 4x20 drops = 8mg.

 

Dalmane I have yes already back in the system and Klonopin also😭

 

Lg

 

 

[[Fa...]]

Hello Quarantine,

 

I don't understand what you mean by cross-tolerance,

don't you even have three benzos with Valium, Dalmadorm and Lormetazepam, aren't they cross-tolerant?

 

And the flurazepam can I just replace that?

 

Trazodone might help?

 

Lg

[[Fa...]]

Hello Quarantine,

 

tapering flurazepam is hard right?

I was on 2mg, I'm so annoyed I couldn't stand it and now have to get on a high dose Shall.

 

AD is Milnaneurax.

[[Fa...]]

Hello,

 

Flurazepam is what the doctor says.

1/2 in the morning and 1/2 in the evening so that the level remains constant. And always leave out some of the Klonopin.

 

He also says better is only one substance a benzo.

 

Klonopin I can also increase he says....

[[Fa...]]

@[Pa...]

 

my doctor has a different equivalency chart.

 

There are 30ng Dalmane = 10mg Valium.

and 2mg Klonopin = 10mg Valium.

[[Fa...]]

Dear thanks slowly,

 

I think so too, but you don't seem to be in tolerance and your taper seems to work pretty symptom poor and you have a small dose at 1.5 mg that seems to work as well.

 

Kind regards

[[Qu...]]

Hello Quarantine,

 

I don't understand what you mean by cross-tolerance,

don't you even have three benzos with Valium, Dalmadorm and Lormetazepam, aren't they cross-tolerant?

 

And the flurazepam can I just replace that?

 

Trazodone might help?

 

Lg

 

Mixing benzo you're more likely to became tolerant also to other drugs and benzo you've never taken.

 

I don't take Valium anymore on a regular basis. Sometimes I try something when I wake up early. But it's a mistake I'm trying to avoid: 90% of the times I've got no result.

 

It's hard to find something effective for sleeping after 15+ years of benzo. And regarding to insomnia I don't believe equivalence scale that much. They can be preatty wider. Crossing from an hypnotic to an anxiolitic may require more dosage than supposed.

Btw yes it's better taking one benzo alone.

 

The AD you said is venlafaxine.

[[Fa...]]

Hello Quarantine,

 

it is probably similar to venlaflaxine.

 

I don't want to mix the benzos at all, I would prefer to be rid of them.

Dalmane has never worked that hypnotic for me. At the time I managed to get rid of the Klonopin with it though....

 

Then I stopped Dalmane too quickly and instead of just ramping it up a bit I made the mistake of taking Klonopin.

 

And now I'm in a miserable situation....

I don't know if I can find a reasonably stable dose.... and especially not with what.

Both are a disaster...

[[Fa...]]

Quarantine are you still taking Flurazepam? Or another benzo?

Or how do you do that?

 

Don't you have withdrawal symptoms?

[[Qu...]]

At the moment I have strong insomnia and I'm basically unable to sleep without something.

 

Trazodone doesn't help me much with sleep. Maybe a little bit with anxiety / mood. Btw it's largely used in benzo withdrawal.

 

In my personal experience side effects of several off label rx drugs are worst than side effects of a good hypnotic. It's just my personal experience. As I said Mirtazapine gave me depressed mood/suicidal thoughts after 7-10 days. But it's not what happens normally. I never heard something like that even here. Also doctor was quite surprised. It's considered on average preatty safe and often prescribed during withdrawal.

 

I'm taking Zolpidem and I love its sleep quality. My main concern is about duration (it doesn't last much, 4-5h at best) and tolerance (I don't know how long it will last). Btw many people here hate it. If I could find the way to get 5.5/6h with zolpidem and trazodone I would consider myself stabilized.

 

I found no difficulties in tapering diazepam. But I never slept well on it. Tried also klonopine, same result. My idea is that switching from an hypnotic to an anxiolitic for sleeping isn't so easy and the equivalence is rather subjective.

Even in Ashton manual 15mg of Dalmane = 5-10mg of Diazepam. It means that 5mg could be OK or 50% underdosed. Stabilization is more a try and see than hard rock math science.