Desiring Help with a Plan of Attack (Klonopin 3mg Daily)

[[Pa...]]

Alright, I'm trying to do a 10% cut every 14 days for the first couple of months. Maybe that's too fast like you say but I can adjust accordingly if that's the case.

 

Quite frankly I can't figure out how to do this titration without wasting the medicine. If I could get a good method down that didn't waste any, I'd even consider a daily down taper. I read your guides but I can't figure out what is best for me and I'm worried I will make mistakes, measurement errors, lose potency from poor storage, etc. I would feel more confident if I could get this down and learn how to do it efficiently. I don't have time to spend hella time on this each day and I also don't want to become obsessed with it. I have OCD and I know that part of the withdrawal process is not hyperfocusing on the taper or the symptoms. I hope that makes sense.

 

A question you could easily answer. Have you heard of anyone jumping off </=.025 after a couple years and going through PAWS? I just don't want PAWS, man. I'm in a fortunate position to potentially avoid it and I can't have this happening to me in the next two years. My future is very dependent on my performance in the next two years. But, if I'm in for a ride even with the perfect DMT, I want to know.

 

I'm a little confused. A liquid/tablet hybrid taper doesn't waste any medicine at all if you use the liquid recipe I describe; there are no discards. The method I use is clearly outlined in my signature linked posts, including links to the products I use to measure accurately; it's not perfectly written and I welcome feedback, but I think I got all the details in there. Tell me clearly your questions, and I'll try to answer them!

 

Your first and last paragraphs seem to contradict each other. In your first paragraph you're suggesting you'll start tapering at 10% and adjust based on symptoms; symptom-based tapering doesn't seem to work well for long-term users. Usually a few months to a year into their taper (depending on unknown factors), long-term users get met with the brunt of their WD symptoms; if they're doing a symptom-based taper, by that point they're usually down to half or less than their original dose, sometimes even just fumes.

 

You don't need to imagine the damage that happens when a part of our neurology accustomed to a full dose of tranquilizer suddenly realizes it's on half or less; you can just read around the forum about long term users who've cut at 10%+/14 days for months, then rather suddenly lost functionality, and often so quickly and so psychologically, they rarely reinstate appropriately to recover their health. I'm sorry to paint such a grim picture, it's only the one I'm seeing from other members; I think it's quite common to think we're the lucky one, and that is how I believe people get really messed up.

 

If your goal is to avoid PAWS, and if your goal is to remain highly functional throughout your taper, the only suggestion I have is to go SUPER slow. 5-7%/14 days is my suggested start rate, and I'd maintain this for at minimum 6 months to get a sense for what my body can handle and give my deeper neurology a chance to get with the program.

 

You can certainly jump off at less than 0.025mg, if that's important to you; it might feel necessary if you've rushed through the earlier parts of the taper and are hanging on to your last little dose to try to limit your symptoms, but I understand doses below this point are usually only psychologically effective. Avoiding protracted withdrawal has nothing to do with staying on non-therapeutic doses, and everything to do with maintaining a slow taper rate that your body can effectively and regularly recover from.

 

Long-term use complicates this taper rate question immensely, and in my mind, negates the possibility of a symptom-based taper until much much later in the taper.

 

The good news is that a percent-based reduction will have your dosage dropping the most in the first year of tapering; at a 6%/14 day reduction rate, you'll be at 1mg/day in 250 days, the entire taper will only require 672 mg of medicine, and will take a total of just under 3 years. But more importantly, you'll be going as fast, as safe, and as comfortably as I can possibly imagine for you.

 

I hope you'll take this advice seriously, but it is entirely your choice how you do this. 

 

Hi slownsteady,

 

Can you point to studies or posts to back up this claim? 

 

[[sl...]]

Hi Pamster! No, I can't offer any studies that support my claims. I've inserted additional speculative language in there to be more clear.

[[Pa...]]

Hi Pamster! No, I can't offer any studies that support my claims. I've inserted additional speculative language in there to be more clear.

 

Thanks slownsteady, it's a strange place we come from, to comply with the rules we have to be vague in order to be clear that much of what we talk about here is anecdotal and can't be supported by actual scientific studies.

 

I appreciate you making the distinction of what you've observed, most of my opinions have been formed through reading member posts, not through my own experience so I hope I caveat this by using language that lets the reader know this.  But even if I do use my own personal experience, I still need to preface my remarks to let them know this is my experience and it may not be theirs. Like I said, we walk a fine line that's easy to cross. 

[[sl...]]

Thanks slownsteady, it's a strange place we come from, to comply with the rules we have to be vague in order to be clear that much of what we talk about here is anecdotal and can't be supported by actual scientific studies.

 

I appreciate you making the distinction of what you've observed, most of my opinions have been formed through reading member posts, not through my own experience so I hope I caveat this by using language that lets the reader know this.  But even if I do use my own personal experience, I still need to preface my remarks to let them know this is my experience and it may not be theirs. Like I said, we walk a fine line that's easy to cross. 

 

Thanks for helping me to communicate more clearly, and for being so patient and understanding while doing it! 

 

Milagro Man; Pamster is right to point out I'm only sharing a personal and anecdotal perspective with regards to some (if not all) of my post. I really wish I had some medical studies that clearly illustrated delayed withdrawal effects for long-term benzo users. For now there seems to be only the human suffering present here on the forum for a reference, and I've noticed there are many other interpretations than my own to consider.

 

I'm still happy to help if you want to formulate a tapering plan. I won't try to stop you from cutting 10%/14 days; I apologize if I came across too harshly.

[Guest [Mi...]]

Thanks slownsteady, it's a strange place we come from, to comply with the rules we have to be vague in order to be clear that much of what we talk about here is anecdotal and can't be supported by actual scientific studies.

 

I appreciate you making the distinction of what you've observed, most of my opinions have been formed through reading member posts, not through my own experience so I hope I caveat this by using language that lets the reader know this.  But even if I do use my own personal experience, I still need to preface my remarks to let them know this is my experience and it may not be theirs. Like I said, we walk a fine line that's easy to cross. 

 

Thanks for helping me to communicate more clearly, and for being so patient and understanding while doing it! 

 

Milagro Man; Pamster is right to point out I'm only sharing a personal and anecdotal perspective with regards to some (if not all) of my post. I really wish I had some medical studies that clearly illustrated delayed withdrawal effects for long-term benzo users. For now there seems to be only the human suffering present here on the forum for a reference, and I've noticed there are many other interpretations than my own to consider.

 

I'm still happy to help if you want to formulate a tapering plan. I won't try to stop you from cutting 10%/14 days; I apologize if I came across too harshly.

 

Don’t worry. I was aware this was anecdotal advice. After all, I read your story and it’s quite different than mine in many ways. I do see how some could take advice as the “literal only way to taper”, but I’ve lurked on the forums for long enough to know better. Thanks for the apology but it is not needed. You didn’t come across harshly.

 

Also thanks for looking out Pamster! I’m just an unknown face on the other side of the Internet so thank you for protecting the members.

 

I think I was led to believe that a bit of the benzo gets thrown out each time you cut, especially near the end of the cut. I’m a bit foggy from this initial cut so I’m not understanding simple things I normally would be. This whole debacle has also stressed me out so I’m trying to discern which is natural fear and which is sxs (I think it’s just natural worry from being told “well if the month taper doesn’t work you can always go to rehab with tegratol”, when I’ve never once shown signs of abuse).

[[sl...]]

I think I was led to believe that a bit of the benzo gets thrown out each time you cut, especially near the end of the cut. I’m a bit foggy from this initial cut so I’m not understanding simple things I normally would be. This whole debacle has also stressed me out so I’m trying to discern which is natural fear and which is sxs (I think it’s just natural worry from being told “well if the month taper doesn’t work you can always go to rehab with tegratol”, when I’ve never once shown signs of abuse).

 

Yikes; was it your doctor who suggested rehab?

 

I'm sorry to hear you're not thinking clearly lately. My cut-and-hold clonazepam cycle was symptoms started 2 days after the cut, peaked at days 5-9, and then I experienced full recovery across days 10-14. Sometimes recovery took longer for me, especially at larger cuts.

 

It turns out my average reduction rate, once I accounted for all my hold times (days spent waiting to stabilize), was only 6%/14 days, even though often my cutting rate was 7%+, and even a 9% DMT for several weeks. So rather than put myself through a painful start-stop-start cycle and regularly losing functionality, I'm now just cutting 6% DMT. I treasure my functionality so much, that's why I resonated with your goals and have urged caution.

 

You're right, there are methods where a little benzo gets tossed every time you cut. There are also methods where no medication is lost. The latter methods I know of are making a liquid formula like I do, either for a liquid/tablet or pure liquid taper; and there is also a dry taper where you crush the pills (or shave/file the pills per weight reductions and save your pill powder until you get to lower doses) and then fill custom weighed capsules with pill powder and filler (Bob7's the expert, benzodrytapermath.com).

 

I wish it was easier to taper at home. My method is the easiest I could find, and it's still not easy. What anxious person wants to be stirring and measuring crushed tablets in alcohol, and then hoping for the best? But when I found out a popular Facebook group encourages water titration as the de-facto best tapering practice, I knew I could do better than that; clonazepam does not like to dissolve in water, and water makes a poor suspension.

 

I hope your symptoms improve and that we can help you taper smoothly. I'll be around if you have questions about titrating that I can answer. I suspect you'll learn a lot about your nervous system with this first cut. 

[Guest [Mi...]]

I didn’t do anything wrong. I think he’s getting slammed for overprescribing and is trying to work his way out of trouble because he was always the slow and steady type with all other medications. He was acting rather odd. Never seen him like that.

 

Do you know why Bob mixes with the cellulose? I didn't quite get why that was needed.

[Guest [ba...]]

Adding cellulose makes the pill heavier.  So it's easier to get a more accurate weight.

 

Instead of your 1 mg pill weighing something like 0.150 mg, it will weight 1.150 mg (after adding an extra gram of cellulose 'filler').  So if you want to weigh out 0.1 mg, it will weigh 0.115 mg instead of 0.015 mg.  The heavier weight can be weighed out more accurately on those little Gem-20 scales.

 

(I'm obviously making those weights up - you'll have to weigh your own klonopin pill to know the actual weight)

 

But you gotta crush the pill well and mix it really well with the cellulose (cornstarch works fine too; you can even use powdered sugar).

[Guest [Mi...]]

Ah that makes perfect sense. Thanks for the quick reply! Bob’s site is great. Other than the cellulose part it all made perfect sense.

[Guest [Mi...]]

Adding cellulose makes the pill heavier.  So it's easier to get a more accurate weight.

 

Instead of your 1 mg pill weighing something like 0.150 mg, it will weight 1.150 mg (after adding an extra gram of cellulose 'filler').  So if you want to weigh out 0.1 mg, it will weigh 0.115 mg instead of 0.015 mg.  The heavier weight can be weighed out more accurately on those little Gem-20 scales.

 

(I'm obviously making those weights up - you'll have to weigh your own klonopin pill to know the actual weight)

 

But you gotta crush the pill well and mix it really well with the cellulose (cornstarch works fine too; you can even use powdered sugar).

 

Do you know if it is okay to make Bob's cellulose/klonopin mix and leave it in storage in a room temperature environment? I want to make these doses in advance because quite frankly, a lot of posts on these tapering boards are quite obsessive. I much rather just have the doses ready instead of making a daily ritual out of it.

 

Another question too. I have two "types" of klonopin. C1 tabs and "V" tabs. One I'm guessing is generic. Should I avoid mixing those two together in any of my Bob-dust?

[Guest [ba...]]

You can make the mix in advance.  Just store it in a cool, dry place.  I'd mix it a bit before using it each time.

 

I don't have a feeling for the C1 or V pills.  In theory, they should contain roughly the same amount of drug, so it really shouldn't matter if you mix them.