Klonopin Taper Going Awry

[[He...]]

Hi Del

 

How’s today going?  Sorry you have to feel so bad!  It’s not easy to get off benzos.  Yes, ideally you would have tapered anti depressants first.  But that ship has sailed.  I’m no expert on how to taper.  Nobody is really.  But, it seems most true to say take your dose at same time every day, and same dose.  You’ve tried a lot of meds and doses.  Your brain is confused.  Do one thing and stay with it awhile.  Like a month or more.  Eventually, symptoms will calm.  They won’t disappear.  It’s so important that you do not sit and focus on symptoms.  Instead, do something anything to distract.  It helps.  Watch funny tv, walk outside in a park or quiet streets, draw and write, long warm baths while you deep breathe, chamomile tea all day long,  get rid of coffee and sugar, change your sensory experiences for example add heat or run cold water over your wrists, lay on the floor and prop your feet up on a wall.  This activates you’re vagus nerve in the parasympathetic system.  That part of your nervous system isn’t firing, so you need to help it.  I’m not a fan of updosing or switching meds.  Too confusing.  But that’s just me.  If you do, know there’s no guarantee if it helping.  And it takes time for your brain to switch and catch up.  So, hmmmm.  I’m tapering clonazepam.  I’m rigid about how much and when to take it.  I realize my brain needs consistency.  I know wd symptoms are my brain trying to heal.  You’ll get through all this.  People here care. 

[[de...]]

I do get the sense that people on here care...!    I have moved my dose 'til 8 p.m. That way I sleep a little better. I know I need patience -- I do wake usually around 5 a.m., filled with terror, sometimes shaking or sweating. I allow terror to get to me. The withdrawals from antidepressants probably aren't helping at all. I honestly never thought I'd have to taper Kpin, given that it was PRN/occasional for so long; had I known, I probably would have tried to taper it first, but there's no point in ruminating in regret. I've got enough ruminating going on about other things. I really hope things even out a little on .5 mg. and that I don't go further into withdrawals. The last two days at least have been absent of visual hallucinations, so that's something.

 

I tried doing two .25mg doses, 12 hrs. apart, a couple of months ago, but it didn't go so well. My body didn't seem to register the drug in a high enough level at any given time. I do wish I was able to dose twice per day.

 

I started an echinacea supplement (not the kind for colds; there's a different strain that helps with anxiety). It seems to take a slight edge off of my sensitivity to visual stimuli and to buy me an hour here or there of less anxiety. I realize supplements are iffy/controversial but this one feels mild and at least not hurtful. My longterm hope is that as my brain heals from the antidepressants, it will make my benzo journey a little easier. But until then, I have quite a bit going on. It's nice to feel support though from others who get it, so thank you.

[[Pa...]]

I see acceptance in your words, its a necessary part of this process because we can fight it all we want to but it takes what it takes.  I'm glad you found something you feel helps and really, there's no controversy concerning supplements, we just see some help, some hurt and we never know who this will happen to so we caution members. 

 

I can see you've got a lot going on in terms of symptoms from the A/D and the Klonopin, I hope things settle down soon.

 

[[He...]]

Hey Del

 

Good the weird visuals are toning down.  That’s positive news.  I really believe you will calm and each day can be better.  Go for any neutral supplements that help.  Just wise to not do it all at once, or you won’t know what’s working.  Can you listen to meditations online?  There are some that support Beta brain waves, and calm you.  You just listen, nothing hard about it.  It’s a good distraction and seems to calm the parasympathetic nervous system.  Something to remember..as hard as it is to get through, all those symptoms are your brain working on healing itself.  I often repeat ‘my brain is healing’ or ‘all I well, I am safe’.  Keep sharing here! I’m

[[de...]]

I am still having a challenging time at this .5mg of Klonopin. It sedates me and dulls my mind so much, plus it makes me feel depressed. How does one deal with depression caused by a drug, and yet know that coming off of it too quickly also causes depression? I know "acceptance" is technically the right answer. It is my brain that I need to tell me to embrace acceptance though, and that is the part that is injured by the drug. I really want to just accept; I am not refusing to; I admit to just not knowing how. I tell myself my brain is healing; I do find this mantra to be a bit helpful but not enough, especially when the cognitive fog starts to interfere.

 

I can't even start tapering yet, because I am getting bad headaches/brain zaps/dark depressions/feelings of sensory overwhelm/occasional hallucinations on the dose that I'm on. But holding causes depression, confusion, etc., due to the drug itself. Going up in dose, then, would only cause these side effects to worsen.

 

I know there is no magic wizard here at BB who can predict what will happen; I am not sure what I'm looking for. Maybe just reassurance, ongoing virtual pats on the back, etc. It's been 11 days back at .5mg and I am not sure things have improved much. Ideally a split dose schedule would help, but history has proven that to not work (at .25mg and .25mg). It is so difficult to wait a whole 24 hrs. between doses at .5mg, because by then my sensory overwhelm and perceptual distortions/depression become scary. Asking doc for an extra dose may just increase side effects though, so I just feel so lost. Yes, "lost." That is the most apt word.

 

Incidentally, approximately 8-12 hrs after a dose is when I get the most calmness/mental clarity.

 

Anyway, again I am not sure what I'm looking for with this post, except additional feedback that this is a manageable situation. So often it feels like I am not ever going to be able to taper, but holding also feels really really difficult (as does the prospect of small updosing).

[[Pa...]]

I know what you're going through, we rely on our brain to inform us, we use it to perceive the world around us, what can we do when our injured brain is not giving us reliable information anymore?  I felt so badly for my mom, she had schizophrenia and she listened to her injured brain tell her things which weren't true.  She was so distraught and resentful when I would tell her that what she thought was true wasn't, she didn't believe me, why should she when her reality was what her brain told her?

 

It's the same for us while we go through this, we've always listened to our brain but during this process we're told not to listen to the horror, the doom and the negative thoughts, but how can we, what else do we have but a bunch of strangers on the internet? 

 

I truly don't know what to tell you, how to answer your questions or help you see your way past this.  The only thing I can tell you is what I know from my experience.  Distraction and the passing of time helped and it was that simple.  I didn't taper so the decision of when to cut or hold was not a part of my recovery, I'm sorry for your pain.

[[He...]]

I think there are a few thoughts and things that can help.  One alone isn’t enough.  Nothing is perfect.  Altogether you can feel a little better and also more empowered to heal.  This is WD.  You can get in front of it and manage it.  You can’t control it or make it go away.  Accept it.  But don’t lay down and feel a victim to it.  Look at your diet.  Eat clean and ditch sugar.  No caffeine.  Have routines besides med routines.  Other things to focus on.  Like, bedtime soothing rituals, same time every night.  Walks outside.  No news media stress.  Funny movies instead.  Projects, super simple.  Like planting seeds indoors for Spring.  Warm lavender baths.  Chamomile tea, all day.  Read about the vagus nerve in the parasympathetic nervous system.  Activate it.  It’s not working, so it’s hard to settle.  Your brain needs help.  It’s not attacking you, it’s trying to heal.  Help it.  Write the words down so when you can’t think, you can read them out loud.  I Am Healing.  My Brain is Healing.  Breathe deep and slow.  Out breath is bigger than in breath.  4 7 8 breathing helps.  Lay on the floor with your feet on the wall.  All of these together are helpful and distract from the other brain activity.  I urge you not to updose.  Your cut to .375 was 25%, and maybe a bit too much.  But truly,  going back to .5 won’t do much good now.  You’ve already cut, so wait it out.  Take care!

[[de...]]

Thank you; I appreciate the solidarity. I may ask on here for it often. It just helps knowing others have dealt with it. Your story about your mother's schizophrenia is moving; that must have been difficult. But it is a sensible analogy.

 

I realize that before, I said it's been 11 days back on .5mg; it's actually been 13 days. I forgot today's date! 

 

Anyway I know that time is a great healer; I am impatient and readily admit it; I find that people distract me. I am alone at home right now, and that is so hard. I feel terror when I am alone. Others give me an outlet for talking, doing, etc. I wish I could just go back to work; that would provide me an outlet. I cannot work right now, due to terror, sensory problems, cognitive problems, etc. I hope to one day be able to work again.

 

I am married and feel better when my spouse is home. (Again, people are a distraction). I have a therapy group I go to; I will go there later today. (Again, it's the people-distraction). Getting there is harder and harder, despite the .5mg, unless I take a supplement or something.

 

 

[[de...]]

Healing 64: I think your post came through while I was typing my last one. Thanks for the suggestions. I too have found that writing down that my brain is healing, and then reading it on notecards, is helpful. I've taken some quotes from Baylissa Fredericks' book and wrote them down on cards, to read.

 

 

[Guest [ba...]]

Regarding splitting doses...

 

If you (for example) took 0.5 at 8 am, then tried taking 0.25 at 8 am and 0.25 at 8 pm, you actually end up lowering your dose a bit, and it takes 4-5 days for it to get back up where it was.  It's nearly a 10% reduction the first day.  To compensate (with klonopin), one needs to take .33 in the morning, then go to .25 doses at night and after that.  Then there's no drop.  Here's what the difference looks like graphically (blood level is y-axis, time in days on the x-axis)...

 

http://enchantedskies.net/OneToTwoPerDay.jpg

 

Regarding acceptance...

 

Acceptance doesn't mean resignation.  When somebody tells you a joke, you accept the humor, respond, and move on.  You don't giggle like an idiot all day long.  Unfortunately, when something 'bad' happens, we often stay stuck with the thought instead of moving on.  Maybe there's a need to try to mentally fix the problem or some innate (inane) need to suffer.  I don't know, but I see a lot of unhappiness as a result.  I do know that there will be times when you may feel depressed.  We all do.  Accept those times, but then be willing to move on.  Don't ponder the bad news or feeling any more than you would ponder the good. 

[[de...]]

I have been trying to "hang on" taking .5mg Kpin since my last post. It just isn't helping me stabilize. Tolerance withdrawal (if that is the correct term) is getting worse. I now have developed increasing derealization, some paranoia, plus constant hangover/flu-like symptoms (nausea, some vertigo, deep pains in muscles, burning muscles), plus an increase in burning skin and the feeling that my brain is burning. I have not skipped doses or tried cutting the dose again. My pervasive sense of terror is worse; it's how I felt when I had tried reducing the drug before, except now I've been back at my steady dose.

 

In sum, it's now been over a solid month since I've held at .5mg, and instead of stabilizing, my tolerance symptoms seem to be continuing getting worse. I cannot taper like this; I really don't know what to do. I thought by giving it more time, my system would settle, but instead the withdrawal is getting worse.

 

I was on 1mg back in January; yes it was PRN but was up to a few times per week before doc prescribed daily .5mg dose. I am wondering if this is still fallout from that change 3 months ago. Maybe it was too abrupt.

 

I like the scale badsocref explained in the last post. I didn't respond because I didn't know what to do. So I continued waiting.

 

Has anyone else here gone through something similar? I am waiting/trying to wait it out but the .5mg is becoming more and more like feeling like when I tried reducing the dose. This is so ... best word would be SURREAL.

[[Ch...]]

Hi del.

 

Let me take a few minutes to go read over all your posts since you joined in February. I want to see if anything jumps out at me.

I’ll be back soon.

 

Challis 

[[Ch...]]

So I went back up to .5mg. last night. I feel so strange and unreal and like despite returning to .5mg., psychotic withdrawal symptoms are inevitable, as they are returning again. I am so terrified. I guess I tried to taper too fast, and my brain got used to not being on the .5mg.

 

I am really in a bad place. I never thought I would end up dealing with Klonopin like this. I don't know how to proceed. I am pacing, rocking, feeling at rock-bottom, hearing things, feeling like my body is disappearing and/or melting, feeling doom, lots of intrusive thoughts, akathisia. I am also getting delirious, not able to think clearly, barely able to make myself a cup of coffee. My spouse is gone during the days during the week. Without her here I don't know how I am supposed to even fix myself food. The cognitive challenges are the scariest, because I need my cognition in order to live.

 

Recommendations/suggestions please... Thank you.

 

How are you doing relative to this post?

[[Ch...]]

This .5mg isn't holding long at all. I woke up feeling agitated and shaky. Sounds are distorting again; paranoia is creeping in again. I think I need to try switching to a longer-acting benzo in order to have a shot at tapering. I called a detox center, thinking maybe they help with crossovers, but this one did not. I took another .5mg this morning (not supposed to have another dose until 6 p.m.), hoping to stave off some of the worst symptoms and buy myself some time, cognitively, to make some phone calls and decisions.

 

My confusion is over whether I can ever stabilize on a dose that is no longer working for me; options seem to be to see if I can get doc to increase dose (and then try taper), to taper from here despite severe withdrawal symptoms that are getting scarier by the minute (distortions, fear of going outside, delirium is starting), or switch to something else. My next doc appt. isn't until April 2 and I know my body and mind won't be too stable in the interim. I just don't know what to do.

 

Or this one? Are you doing better or the same or worse?

[[Ch...]]

Hmmm...are you taking this just once a day? One of your posts says you started feeling better 11-12 hours after your dose.

 

Also saw a comment that you feel better when your spouse is around, so some of this is anxiety over the situation you’re in, which is totally understandable and to be expected. Although you aren’t in any danger, I know it feels like it. 

 

I’ll stop talking and let you catch up.

But I’ll stay logged on and watch for your post.

 

[[de...]]

Hi. Initially I'd feel better a certain time after dosing. It is no longer the case. The last 3-4 days, it's as if I didn't dose at all, and in fact the withdrawal symptoms are getting more and more feeling like when I tried to CT. Major pressure in head, scary command thoughts, some hallucinations, akathisia, terror looking at anything familiar; my wife seems so far away or like a stranger (derealization); these symptoms I had when I tried to CT. It's not quite as bad as the CT level yet but almost.

 

I dose once per day. For the last 2 weeks, it was like nails on a chalkboard for the last 6 hrs before dosing again. So I'd have a brief time of feeling okay enough to function, only to feel a massive dropoff of med levels. I tried dosing slightly less than 24 hrs apart, to reduce the time of interdose withdrawal. For instance, this past week, I had tried dosing at 10 pm but moved it to 8pm a couple days then 6 pm; each time though, I'd have several hours of excruciating symptoms before dosing again. And the last few days, I barely notice any help from the med at all; I don't get even a couple hours of relief.

 

I hope I am explaining all of this clearly and will also stay logged on to wait for your response. Thanks.

 

[[Ch...]]

I quoted your past posts because I wanted to make sure you weren’t reacting paradoxically to the Klonopin. If so you wouldn’t want to up the dose, you’d want to taper faster instead.

 

Regardless of the reasons for how you’re feeling (could be Covid19 anxiety, could be antidepressant w/d, could be the big cut in January, could be a combination), it sounds like it’s just about intolerable. It doesn’t have to be this tough.

 

My thought is this...what about taking .375mg twice a day (12 hours apart)?

 

You’d end up higher at .75mg.  How do you feel about that?  I would then give some thought to a daily micro reduction once stabilized.  IF you stabilize. There is no knowing how upping a dose might go, but I think I saw in another post that you already know that..

[[Ch...]]

And you also may be in tolerance withdrawal after holding a month. This can happen.

[[de...]]

Ok thank you. I do need to find a dose at which I can tolerate for a while before tapering, in my opinion. I feel there are mixed opinions and advice here about holding. I had to hold because I never really got back to an okay enough place to taper.

 

The .375 2x/day may be a good option... What about .50mg and then .25? I don't know that I have enough knowledge to make exact cuts of the .5 into quarters; the doses would not all be the same. I tried it before but don't know if I made good clean cuts.

 

I do feel that dosing more than once makes more sense than once-daily dosing, in my case. I had tried to do that in the past, with twice-daily .25mg, but that didn't seem to work.

 

I will take all of this into consideration.

[[Ch...]]

I think that sounds like an even a better idea, actually. That way your body isn’t wondering where the .125mgs went!

 

When I cut pills, I always used the cut pieces in my next dose to make sure I was getting all of it. With K that’s less immediately noticeable than a short-acting benzo like Xanax, but still I think a good strategy.

[[de...]]

Thanks to people who've responded. I'm terrified and seeking help but also feel ambivalence about reinstating to a prior dose. I see where it just creates an endless cascade of catching up with symptoms, only to have them return. I took an extra .50 dose last night (making it two in 24 hrs.). I felt desperate. And now I realize I shouldn't have done it, because it didn't even help much anyway. I lay awake most of the night shaking, ruminating, spasming, and even more depressed than before. I woke up feeling even worse. I think I got a little extra sleep because of extra sedation, but not much.

 

I continue to have the question though: When to taper, if symptoms never stabilize? Stay at a nonworking dose indefinitely? I just don't get this part yet, even though different people have given advice in different ways. Some people say you can't taper while destabilized. Some people say that staying on a dose too long creates more tolerance withdrawal. Etc. I know I need to find a plan and commit to it, and see how it goes. I do see though that reinstating part or most of my previous dose is no guarantee of relief.

 

In sum: To be stuck at a nonworking dose for over a month, a dose that works less as the days go on, is a very confusing place to be.

 

 

[[de...]]

Still in dire straits. I just had a phone consult with Baylissa Fredericks. (She is amazing, by the way). Anyway, she believes that even these crazy symptoms I'm having, at the dose I'm on, will eventually settle. That gave me a little bit of feeling better.

 

In desperation on 4/5, I took 2-  .5mg doses of Kpin, within 3 hrs of each other. The whole night, I was awake with strange cognitive distortions, trembling, and fears. The next day (4/6/20), I slept a lot, which was welcome actually but not worth the other hell. I tried 2-  .5mg doses of Kpin again (not together but rather spaced a few hrs apart) -- I figured maybe I needed to give it another shot, and was hoping to stave off interdose withdrawals. Anyway, same result: yes it makes me sleepy but also makes me feel more hoplessness, more foggy, more confused, more "weird."

 

I did not follow the advice given by Mary (on another thread) or by Challis -- I thought "more" (e.g., a return to my January dose) would fix the problem. I got desperate. I admit it. I am just scared, and sometimes fear makes people do things that aren't wise.

 

The lesson is that two .5mg doses are not the answer to my woes. Now as for what might be the answer? I can try a dose of .25mg to help with interdose withdrawals, as Challis and I had discussed. The bigger issue is that even my regular .50 dose just doesn't seem to do much of anything anymore. I just don't know anymore. I can't believe this is happening. Long story short though: The .5mg reinstatement I did a few weeks ago helped a little but not a lot; it then devolved into interdose withdrawals and now a tolerance withdrawal I never thought possible. Words of encouragement, please! I don't know that advice about reinstatement/holds is needed right now, as I think I've gotten decent suggestions on that already.

 

Thanks.

 

[[Pa...]]

The unpredictability of this process is maddening, no two tapers are the same, just as no two people are.  I wish I had words of encouragement but I only have my experience which was light years away from yours.  I didn't know these drugs had to be tapered so I just stopped taking them and while I would never recommend a cold turkey, at least there was no decision to be made, it was done. 

 

I'm sorry for your pain and indecision and sorry nothing seems to be working. 

[[go...]]

Pamster - How long were you on 6 - 10 mg. of Klon.?

[[Pa...]]

It kind of grew to that dose, I'd say at least a year of those massive doses, I had a problem with taking them for social reasons, to sleep, to give myself an appetite, to get through a presentation at work, I was very erratic, very dangerous and stupid.