Addiction/Dependence Discussion

[[be...]]

Bads:

 

Good post as usual. Of course we will read those bottle labels, but how much of the ignorant population really read them? I know my mom takes whatever she is scripted so I have to look at the bottle and make sure it is safe for her to take, like Cipro is a big  :nono: for her.

[[lo...]]

Well that's just the thing.  The last straw for LF might have been the "this shit will ruin your life" statement.  It's a bummer to think that one's life may have been ruined by some jerk in a white coat that one trusted.  But what are we supposed to do here?  Curl up in our security blankets and suck our thumbs?  Continue to believe and parrot the bought-and-paid-for thought leaders, academics and industry shills who create soft medical terms that minimize the dangers of these pills?  But yet many if not most of my fellow buddies here believe that these newly-minted terms are appropriate, valid, true.  Fully invested.  They talk about the pain this level of honesty causes those who are currently addicted.  Oh, the stigma, the shame!  Please cut the crap.  You're not just ignoring an epidemic, you're helping to feed it.

 

I think of an appointment I had with my psychiatrist, oh, about 15 years ago.  I owe her a lot, actually.  She was my supplier and she knew it.  So, I asked her directly.  "I'm addicted to this stuff (Ativan) now, right?"  Without hesitation and with complete certainty, she said "yes."  She could have answered like the first guy and mumbled some nonsense about how benzos are like insulin, you know the routine...patient compliance via bullshit.  These people KNOW these drugs cause addiction, and they know they cause addiction fast.  But what do you do as a doctor in a world where there's some malpractice lawyer waiting to cash in?  You hide behind a word.  But, oh my, the word has surpassed all expectations.  The victims and their advocates now believe the word!

 

Come on folks.  You want your kids and eventually your grand kids to wind up in this forum, or worse yet in a detox clinic getting their brains fried because our culture wants to play games with words?  Does the prospect of this make you want to leave this thread?  Is it too much?  Well, do what you gotta do, I guess.

 

It's benzodiazepine ADDICTION.  Get the T-shirt.

 

I believe that the language matter, because it determines how we are treated. I naively went to rehab, I wanted off the med and when my doctor suggested a reduction that I couldn't do I figured I was an addict, stopped taking xanax and checked myself in without consulting him. In my opinion I was very wrong. There was nothing positive about that experience. Rehab brought me closer to street drugs (patients smuggled in) than I had ever been in my life. I gave money to a fellow patient because he told me that he would hitch hike on the highway if I didn't. I was a mess, way to vulnerable to be there. The protocol in place, was only harmful to me. I put myself there, that was my mistake, but it is the facilities mistake to think they knew how to treat someone coming of benzodiazapines. I did learn the word "benzo" in rehab, I learned that they are also called footballs, zanies, bars and that people snort them and shoot them up. Just one of the many things I learned that was of no use to me in my suffering. My humble opinion is that something needs to change. There needs to be some distinction or we will never get the care we need.

[[Fl...]]

Still waiting for anyone on the other side of this debate to address any of the points that clearly illustrate why the use of the addiction label is straight up dangerous for people who find themselves tangled up in this mess. Explain to me how you justify the grievous harm this label causes patients.

 

If you don't have anything more than "We should use certain language so people pay more attention" I can't take your argument seriously.

 

https://www.madinamerica.com/2017/07/uniting-critical-voices-collaborate/

 

This is one reason.  A very good reason.  We have to come together to overcome the status quo power structure that exists.  Remaining fragmented with personal agendas won't work to create any meaningful change.  No matter your stance regarding the dependence vs addiction discussion excluding one group or another for whatever reason diminishes the power of the goal which is change.  The language we use is irrelevant if no one listens.  Most I run into in real life speak and understand the language of addiction.  It holds their attention.  To affect change and overcome the powerful structure that controls our issues we need numbers and unity first.  When I start talking about benzos and dependence and iatrogenic harm the language doesn't make sense.  The idea doesn't really make sense, it's not in their experience or part of their understanding.  It sounds like an excuse to everyone who speaks the language of addiction which is most of them. 

 

I don't disagree with your message FloridaGuy, it's simply that most not affected by these meds don't speak the language or care that much.  They don't have the time or interest to pursue your (our) points much less change and overcome a lifetime of belief (addiction paradigm). 

 

To get the kind of broad change you are looking for everyone who has been affected by these psych meds has the stand together.  Your goals can't be achieved by being insensitive, uncaring, intolerant or outright dismissive of someone else's history.  Invalidating others experiences is exclusive and counterproductive to the goal of change.  We are stronger together than we are apart.  From my perspective and dare I say the existing power structures perspective with benzos addiction is the language that is spoken most of the time.  That being said not including that language excludes a large percentage of those who would be your ally in the broader goal called change. 

 

The lobby for change needs to include everyone despite their affiliation with one camp or another.  Otherwise we (you) will be seen as a fringe and radical element. Something that can largely be ignored and discarded and to date has been. 

 

Your (my) goal is simply not as easy as changing the language used to speak about benzos.   

 

So it would be better to band everyone together using an inappropriate label that leads to grievous harm to patients instead of working on getting it RElabeled for the CNS damage that it actually is?

 

This is what we call cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[[be...]]

PB:

 

like Kiddo said there is another thread with the exact same title on it in this same section. I know you have posted there so what gives with a new one? It's hotly debated so no need for two hotly debated threads.......... :

[[co...]]

 

Let's not worry about labelling those who have found this forum the hard way.  Instead, let's use better product labelling to warn those who might end up here in 5-10 years.

Good post, especially this last sentence. I cold turkeyed through ignorance so this discussion passes me by. When I saw my doc, I was off Xanax and definitely didn't want back on. So I don't think I was labeled "addicted". But there is something different about benzos vs. other addictive drugs and would behoove medical science to find out what. Finally, in my best "Make lemonade out of lemons" mode, at least I can adequately warn all those in sphere of contact about these drugs, warnings I never received.

[[Fl...]]

But yet many if not most of my fellow buddies here believe that these newly-minted terms are appropriate, valid, true.  Fully invested.  They talk about the pain this level of honesty causes those who are currently addicted.  Oh, the stigma, the shame!  Please cut the crap.  You're not just ignoring an epidemic, you're helping to feed it.

 

Once again, you focus on a minor point and completely ignore the real physical, mental and spiritual torture that is caused when inappropriate labels cause inappropriate (inhumane) treatment. I have asked you multiple times to explain how this is justified, and you don't even bother to answer. I assume this is because you don't have an answer.

 

I think of an appointment I had with my psychiatrist, oh, about 15 years ago.  I owe her a lot, actually.  She was my supplier and she knew it.  So, I asked her directly.  "I'm addicted to this stuff (Ativan) now, right?"  Without hesitation and with complete certainty, she said "yes."  She could have answered like the first guy and mumbled some nonsense about how benzos are like insulin, you know the routine...patient compliance via bullshit.

 

Looks like you were lucky enough to have not had your pills ripped out of your hands. According to your signature you did a 2 1/2 year taper. What if your doctor had done what many doctors would do in that situation and force you off the pills rapidly because "that is what you do when someone is addicted to something"?

 

Come on folks.  You want your kids and eventually your grand kids to wind up in this forum, or worse yet in a detox clinic getting their brains fried because our culture wants to play games with words?  Does the prospect of this make you want to leave this thread?  Is it too much?  Well, do what you gotta do, I guess.

 

It's benzodiazepine ADDICTION.  Get the T-shirt.

 

The irony being that this will never, ever change until it is recognized for the very real damage that it causes to the CNS. People have been calling this addiction for years and yet.....here we are.

[[Fl...]]

 

Let's not worry about labelling those who have found this forum the hard way.  Instead, let's use better product labelling to warn those who might end up here in 5-10 years.

Good post, especially this last sentence. I cold turkeyed through ignorance so this discussion passes me by. When I saw my doc, I was off Xanax and definitely didn't want back on. So I don't think I was labeled "addicted". But there is something different about benzos vs. other addictive drugs and would behoove medical science to find out what. Finally, in my best "Make lemonade out of lemons" mode, at least I can adequately warn all those in sphere of contact about these drugs, warnings I never received.

 

Yes, these drugs can cause long term damage to the CNS and this absolutely should be addressed in the labeling. If I had any idea whatsoever that I could be suffering from painful, debilitating issues 6 1/2 years after my last dose of this drug I wouldn't have taken the first pill.

[Guest [Le...]]

I actually never thought about the semantics of this, because I took Ativan 'as prescribed.' When I tried to stop I discovered that I couldn't, so I Googled my symptoms and found BenzoBuddies. Never once did I think of my incapacitation as addiction, nor did I think of it as dependence, because semantics are trivial when the snarling benzo beast is devouring the mind and body.

 

I simply knew that I was hooked, period. Then I learned here what to do about it and got off. Now I'm recovering.

 

There are well-known usage conventions about the terms 'addiction' and 'dependence,' and it seems pointless to argue about how these distinctions came to be and what they really mean while you're busy trying to figure out how to get off a runaway train.

 

If it feels important to identify as an addict, then by all means do that. Or wear the t-shirt.

 

But it seems simplistic to believe that calling it 'addiction' rather than 'dependence' will somehow magically enlighten doctors, patients, family and friends, and that that's how to stop this plague - fat chance.

 

 

Come on folks.  You want your kids and eventually your grand kids to wind up in this forum, or worse yet in a detox clinic getting their brains fried because our culture wants to play games with words?  Does the prospect of this make you want to leave this thread?  Is it too much?  Well, do what you gotta do, I guess.

 

It's benzodiazepine ADDICTION.  Get the T-shirt.

 

 

Edit: Typo

[[be...]]

 

Come on folks.  You want your kids and eventually your grand kids to wind up in this forum, or worse yet in a detox clinic getting their brains fried because our culture wants to play games with words?  Does the prospect of this make you want to leave this thread?  Is it too much?  Well, do what you gotta do, I guess.

 

It's benzodiazepine ADDICTION.  Get the T-shirt.

 

 

Sorry but they don't have my size.

[[Ch...]]

This thread seems to have run its course.  After discussing it, the team has decided to lock it now.

Challis

[[Ch...]]

After even more discussion, we've decided our decision was too hasty.  The thread has been unlocked.

Challis 

[[be...]]

[[wa...]]

Thanks to moderators.  I did feel that it was a little too censorshippy to lock it.  WBB

[[Ro...]]

Agree.  Too censoring to pull down.  I dont really care what we call this.  My body is damaged, maybe for life.  I feel wired and exhausted and understand there is no drug or supplement to solve this.  Period.  What make me feel better temporarily are sunshine, exercise, remembering the wonderful years I had up until I started this.  I took my amazing life for granted.  At least I had 50 years.  For those of you young, I feel if you stay off Everything and tough this out, you will eventually heal and be wiser and smarter. 

[[Te...]]

 

Let's not worry about labelling those who have found this forum the hard way.  Instead, let's use better product labelling to warn those who might end up here in 5-10 years.

Good post, especially this last sentence. I cold turkeyed through ignorance so this discussion passes me by. When I saw my doc, I was off Xanax and definitely didn't want back on. So I don't think I was labeled "addicted". But there is something different about benzos vs. other addictive drugs and would behoove medical science to find out what. Finally, in my best "Make lemonade out of lemons" mode, at least I can adequately warn all those in sphere of contact about these drugs, warnings I never received.

 

Yes, these drugs can cause long term damage to the CNS and this absolutely should be addressed in the labeling. If I had any idea whatsoever that I could be suffering from painful, debilitating issues 6 1/2 years after my last dose of this drug I wouldn't have taken the first pill.

 

I think you're right, FG. The fact that benzos cause extensive damage to the CNS HAS to be in the labeling. So many doctors just assume, in ignorance, that once the benzo is out of the body, a person shouldn't experience "cravings" or even symptoms. They demean us into a box labeled "addicts," which is absolutely false. As long as the word addiction trails benzos, it's going to be very difficult for doctors to understand the real havoc benzos cause: CNS damage.

[[Ph...]]

When you are taking a benzo to treat a short term psychological issue, you are dependent.  No problem there, that's what the English word "dependent" means.  You're relying on the stuff to get past a temporary problem.  But when you are still taking a benzo after three months or to simply to avoid the pain of interdose withdrawal, you are physically addicted.  Is it possible for us to ask our handlers to leave our brains for a moment and allow us to apply some common sense to this?  No, it's not.  Because as primates we need our handlers in our brains.  But that's another topic, and a rich one indeed, which is explored in this great podcast episode:

 

http://bigpicturescience.org/episodes/skeptic-check-rational-lampoon

 

You may think you're making your dependence/addiction judgement as a result of your own rational, informed free will.  Not so fast...

 

[[li...]]

'Is it possible for us to ask our handlers to leave our brains for a moment and allow us to apply some common sense to this? '

 

Handlers ? I don't get what you mean.

[[Fl...]]

I dont really care what we call this.  My body is damaged, maybe for life.

 

How can you not care? Terminology dictates the treatment protocol. If we treat people who are dependent upon benzos or who have been damaged by benzos as if they are addicted, we can cause them harm. And vice-versa.

 

As long as the word addiction trails benzos, it's going to be very difficult for doctors to understand the real havoc benzos cause: CNS damage.

 

Of course it is. There is a reason why we call cancer "cancer" and AIDS "AIDS". If you treat a cancer patient with AIDS drugs, what is going to happen? Some people are too shortsighted to see how these benzo labels are no different. I personally believe that this "benzo illness" needs a name of it's own (at least if it drags on a certain amount of time after acute), but as it stands the best we can do is push to apply existing terminology to fit as best we can in order to ensure humane treatment.

 

When you are taking a benzo to treat a short term psychological issue, you are dependent.  No problem there, that's what the English word "dependent" means.  You're relying on the stuff to get past a temporary problem.  But when you are still taking a benzo after three months or so simply to avoid the pain of interdose withdrawal, you are physically addicted.

 

So what do you call it if you never had interdose withdrawal and you stopped taking the benzo simply because you wanted to stop taking it, then weeks later all hell breaks loose with your body, then after a few days or weeks of mulling it over you finally realize that it was the benzo (actually the lack thereof) that is making you incredibly sick?

 

Also, what difference does it make if someone is using a benzo to treat a short or long term issue or a psychological or a physical issue?

 

 

[[Ph...]]

We are dependent on a drug when we rely on it to treat a diagnosed condition or illness. 

 

We are addicted to a drug when we take it simply because we are taking it. 

 

This stuff is simple.

 

Stop using the words dependent or dependency in connection to benzodiazepines.  The word is already taken and it means something else!  In common parlance it means to rely on something or someone.  Find another word that matches the seriousness of this life-ruining epidemic that the public can understand.  Pass the memo up the food chain to the Big Dogs and tell them to change the word.  Heck, if the word is really a good one, I'll use it too!

 

 

[[Ph...]]

'Is it possible for us to ask our handlers to leave our brains for a moment and allow us to apply some common sense to this? '

 

Handlers ? I don't get what you mean.

Just listen to the podcast, which explains what I mean.  In short, we're not making independent judgements about this topic or for that matter, any other topic.  Please listen to the whole podcast.

[[be...]]

We are dependent on a drug when we rely on it to treat a diagnosed condition or illness. 

 

We are addicted to a drug when we take it simply because we are taking it. 

This stuff is simple.

 

Stop using the words dependent or dependency in connection to benzodiazepines.  The word is already taken and it means something else!  In common parlance it means to rely on something or someone.  Find another word that matches the seriousness of this life-ruining epidemic that the public can understand.  Pass the memo up the food chain to the Big Dogs and tell them to change the word.  Heck, if the word is really a good one, I'll use it too!

 

 

I disagree with that PB.................

 

[credit: wiki]

Addiction is a disorder of the brain's reward system which arises through transcriptional and epigenetic mechanisms and occurs over time from chronically high levels of exposure to an addictive stimulus (e.g., morphine, cocaine, sexual intercourse, gambling, etc.).[1][10][11] ΔFosB, a gene transcription factor, is a critical component and common factor in the development of virtually all forms of behavioral and drug addictions.[10][11][12][13] Two decades of research into ΔFosB's role in addiction have demonstrated that addiction arises, and the associated compulsive behavior intensifies or attenuates, along with the overexpression of ΔFosB in the D1-type medium spiny neurons of the nucleus accumbens.[1][10][11][12] Due to the causal relationship between ΔFosB expression and addictions, it is used preclinically as an addiction biomarker.[1][10][12] ΔFosB expression in these neurons directly and positively regulates drug self-administration and reward sensitization through positive reinforcement, while decreasing sensitivity to aversion.[note 1][1][10]

[[Ph...]]

We are dependent on a drug when we rely on it to treat a diagnosed condition or illness. 

 

We are addicted to a drug when we take it simply because we are taking it. 

This stuff is simple.

 

Stop using the words dependent or dependency in connection to benzodiazepines.  The word is already taken and it means something else!  In common parlance it means to rely on something or someone.  Find another word that matches the seriousness of this life-ruining epidemic that the public can understand.  Pass the memo up the food chain to the Big Dogs and tell them to change the word.  Heck, if the word is really a good one, I'll use it too!

 

 

I disagree with that PB.................

 

[credit: wiki]

Addiction is a disorder of the brain's reward system which arises through transcriptional and epigenetic mechanisms and occurs over time from chronically high levels of exposure to an addictive stimulus (e.g., morphine, cocaine, sexual intercourse, gambling, etc.).[1][10][11] ΔFosB, a gene transcription factor, is a critical component and common factor in the development of virtually all forms of behavioral and drug addictions.[10][11][12][13] Two decades of research into ΔFosB's role in addiction have demonstrated that addiction arises, and the associated compulsive behavior intensifies or attenuates, along with the overexpression of ΔFosB in the D1-type medium spiny neurons of the nucleus accumbens.[1][10][11][12] Due to the causal relationship between ΔFosB expression and addictions, it is used preclinically as an addiction biomarker.[1][10][12] ΔFosB expression in these neurons directly and positively regulates drug self-administration and reward sensitization through positive reinforcement, while decreasing sensitivity to aversion.[note 1][1][10]

If the internet and wiki had existed in the 1940's and 50's, you would have found an equally erudite paragraph with fancy terms no one can understand, explaining how a frontal lobotomy administered via ice pick through the orbital socket of an eyeball and scrambling the frontal cortex was an effective treatment for schizophrenia.  The procedure was supported by all the Big Dogs in neurology, because, well...the idea reached a critical mass.  Ideas like these reach critical masses (touted by sufficient numbers) where they just accepted.  After all, these people are researchers and doctors with Phd's!  But here's a shocker for you.  YOU can figure this out all by yourself.  You don't have to wait for instructions.

[[...]]

We are dependent on a drug when we rely on it to treat a diagnosed condition or illness. 

 

We are addicted to a drug when we take it simply because we are taking it. 

 

This stuff is simple.

 

Stop using the words dependent or dependency in connection to benzodiazepines.  The word is already taken and it means something else!  In common parlance it means to rely on something or someone.  Find another word that matches the seriousness of this life-ruining epidemic that the public can understand.  Pass the memo up the food chain to the Big Dogs and tell them to change the word.  Heck, if the word is really a good one, I'll use it too!

 

I can't disagree totally with you, Photo.  If I had a choice, I'd have even preferred "Benzo Discontinuation Syndrome".  Again, it's far from ideal but seeing as the message is getting out with the ADs, I think it would've possibly had greater impact to have piggy-backed off that.

 

However!  As far as the word is already taken, etc., well, it's already taken by the medical dictionaries as well, whatcha gonna do about that?  It would be great if the English language were as simple as you're declaring, wouldn't it? 

 

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/drug+dependence

[[be...]]

We are dependent on a drug when we rely on it to treat a diagnosed condition or illness. 

 

We are addicted to a drug when we take it simply because we are taking it. 

This stuff is simple.

 

Stop using the words dependent or dependency in connection to benzodiazepines.  The word is already taken and it means something else!  In common parlance it means to rely on something or someone.  Find another word that matches the seriousness of this life-ruining epidemic that the public can understand.  Pass the memo up the food chain to the Big Dogs and tell them to change the word.  Heck, if the word is really a good one, I'll use it too!

 

 

I disagree with that PB.................

 

[credit: wiki]

Addiction is a disorder of the brain's reward system which arises through transcriptional and epigenetic mechanisms and occurs over time from chronically high levels of exposure to an addictive stimulus (e.g., morphine, cocaine, sexual intercourse, gambling, etc.).[1][10][11] ΔFosB, a gene transcription factor, is a critical component and common factor in the development of virtually all forms of behavioral and drug addictions.[10][11][12][13] Two decades of research into ΔFosB's role in addiction have demonstrated that addiction arises, and the associated compulsive behavior intensifies or attenuates, along with the overexpression of ΔFosB in the D1-type medium spiny neurons of the nucleus accumbens.[1][10][11][12] Due to the causal relationship between ΔFosB expression and addictions, it is used preclinically as an addiction biomarker.[1][10][12] ΔFosB expression in these neurons directly and positively regulates drug self-administration and reward sensitization through positive reinforcement, while decreasing sensitivity to aversion.[note 1][1][10]

If the internet and wiki had existed in the 1940's and 50's, you would have found an equally erudite paragraph with fancy terms no one can understand, explaining how a frontal lobotomy administered via ice pick through the orbital socket of an eyeball and scrambling the frontal cortex was an effective treatment for schizophrenia.  The procedure was supported by all the Big Dogs in neurology, because, well...the idea reached a critical mass.  Ideas like these reach critical masses (touted by sufficient numbers) where they just accepted.  After all, these people are researchers and doctors with Phd's!  But here's a shocker for you.  YOU can figure this out all by yourself.  You don't have to wait for instructions.

 

I still disagree with you despite the fact that my great aunt had a lobotomy. And no ice pick was used.  :laugh:No matter when, there will always be health care mistakes. And everyone makes mistakes, unless they are perfect. The trick is the learn by past mistakes. Not only with health care, but history tends to repeat itself in all matters. Live to not learn.

[[Fl...]]

We are dependent on a drug when we rely on it to treat a diagnosed condition or illness. 

 

We are addicted to a drug when we take it simply because we are taking it. 

 

This stuff is simple.

 

If it were simple you would be able to answer my questions and provide rebuttals, but I have yet to see any of that. Why do you refuse to address my questions and points directly?

 

Not only do you want to add confusion to medical terminology, but now you are making up your own definitions to make everything. Ask any addiction expert and they will tell you that:

 

"Dependence" is when your body chemistry is altered by a drug and your body is dependent on the drug to function properly.

 

"Addiction" is inability to discontinued use of a drug despite serious negative consequences.