Addiction/Dependence Discussion

[[Ch...]]

Why someone took benzodiazepines isn't really the point, is it?  Dependence and its ensuing withdrawal and recovery problems are the issues that need to be widely messaged.  There's plenty of awareness about drug addiction.

[[Fl...]]

FG,

 

do you think your benzo nightmare and your brother's addiction are different? -- are you two different people, different set of circumstances that happened to both of you? i'm trying to figure this out also for myself since my brother displays many "addict" behavior and personality traits. is it just the drugs he is still on? is it the kind of drugs he is still on -- soma and opiates verses benzos? you know what i mean?

 

The similarities between our experiences begin and end with having "withdrawal" symptoms. Aside from that I don't see how our situations could be any more different.

 

Could I have ever ended up homeless and nearly dead from using illicit drugs? I guess it could happen to a lot of people under the right circumstances but I would bet that he is just fundamentally wired differently in some way that makes him more prone to addiction.

 

I have a buddy who is an alcoholic. He obviously has something that predisposes him to craving alcohol and I have seen him do some pretty stupid stuff as a result, stuff that he wouldn't do if he wasn't under the spell of alcohol. Like, almost killing himself walking too close to a cliff when he was stumbling drunk and almost burning down his house and possibly killing his entire family when he was drunk at home. Not sure what it is about alcohol that is different from benzos but I have had alcohol cravings myself so I know that it is also a lot different than benzos.

 

So if your question is "does it matter what kind of drug", I would say "yea, I'm sure it matters a lot". But I also think that some people are just going to use or abuse something that helps them escape reality.

[[pr...]]

some people are just going to use or abuse something that helps them escape reality.

 

 

yeah, it could come down to just this. even that someone going into their trusted doctor's office with symptom of anxiety or maybe even grief from a loss in their lives -- to being prescribed something that will alter their reality. even if it's the supposed right thing to do at the moment. the healthy thing to do at the moment.

 

[[Lo...]]

Why someone took benzodiazepines isn't really the point, is it?  Dependence and its ensuing withdrawal and recovery problems are the issues that need to be widely messaged.  There's plenty of awareness about drug addiction.

 

I agree with you, Challis99. I think this particular topic of Addiction vs Dependence has been beaten to death over the years in so many threads. It's the withdrawal and recovery symptoms that are poorly understood and need to be given a much wider attention. In other words, people need help.

[[...]]

One last point about the language of addiction/dependence. It has political ramifications. Where I come from politicians direct the majority of funds towards illegal drug use. Glasgow is due to receive £2.3 million a year for self-injection or "shooting galleries" for heroin users. These people need help, no doubt about it but unfortunately the misuse of drugs and prescription drug dependency get lumped together. They think they have the problem covered. They don't. We are told to go back to our doctors if we encounter problems with our prescription, the very people who started the whole ball rolling in the first place. And of course prescribing is done under good clinical practice and follows set guidelines. Then we have denial. How many times are patients told they cannot possibly be having difficulties tapering or in withdrawal? How many times are side-effects and withdrawal symptoms given psychological labels? Perhaps we all have addictive personalities? Something Professor Malcolm Ladar entirely discredits. Addiction services don't begin to address the issue of prescription drug dependency, the culture is all about abuse and rehabilitation. 

 

 

 

By the way, great articles from madinamerica FloridaGuy, excellent exposition on the language around addiction and dependency. 

[[Co...]]

Most of us are suffering because someone has slapped a label on us in the past.  Why continue labeling ourselves?  We have an iatragenic injury, and we're healing.

[[Lo...]]

Most of us are suffering because someone has slapped a label on us in the past.  Why continue labeling ourselves?  We have an iatragenic injury, and we're healing.

 

Thank you. Great observation

[[Te...]]

I think doctors are more likely to be understanding of something happening with the body - blood pressure, heart, lungs, etc. They can "fix" that. But someone coming into the office talking about anxiety - that's in the mind, and for some reason they don't want to deal with it. Maybe since they've been through medical school, they have the "suck it up" mentality and look on people who ask for benzos as weak. They are more compassionate towards depression than they are anxiety, which in the past was more of a woman's problem.

 

I could be completely wrong about this, but I'm just throwing it out there.

 

People who get off easily from benzos tend to think that we're exaggerating symptoms. Women have the most prescriptions of benzos, and women have been looked down upon.

 

There is definitely a stigma attached to benzos that's been from the beginning.

 

[[bu...]]

Those of you who don't understand the difference between dependence and addiction, have never actually had an addiction.

[[Te...]]

I know I am addicted to coffee. The only thing that made me stop it during the benzo mess was when I got a TIA from high blood pressure, coffee being a strong culprit in that along with the cortisol rushes. But even so, I still continued to look longingly at people in cafes and would dream about being able to drink coffee. I have tried over many months to get used to it again in terms of my nerves and the hbp resulting from it, and now I have finally gotten to a place where I can enjoy a little without it causing havoc to my bp. But I don't go overboard out of fear. Still, I look at it as an addiction.

 

But the benzos and bp pills? No. Those are not addictions and never have been, although I have taken extra bp pills when I was suffering the most and even took rescue doses of Xanax.

 

I saw my sister suffer with alcoholism, which was very rough. That was a severe addiction, and she only quit drinking after ending up in the gutter and not knowing how she got there. She could not drink again. That would have killed her, and she knew it.

 

 

[[pr...]]

I know I am addicted to coffee. The only thing that made me stop it during the benzo mess was when I got a TIA from high blood pressure, coffee being a strong culprit in that along with the cortisol rushes. But even so, I still continued to look longingly at people in cafes and would dream about being able to drink coffee. I have tried over many months to get used to it again in terms of my nerves and the hbp resulting from it, and now I have finally gotten to a place where I can enjoy a little without it causing havoc to my bp. But I don't go overboard out of fear. Still, I look at it as an addiction.

 

 

i think sugar, coffee and cigarettes in that combo is a pretty strong addiction.

 

[[Lo...]]

Yes. Drinking coffee while tapering or in recovery from benzodiazepines can be problematic because coffee is a stimulant and a psychotropic. It actually works as a GABAa receptor antagonist, and it will boost other excitory neurotransmitters that are already in overload.

 

On the other hand , drinking coffee while occasionally taking benzodiazepines (long before the tolerance is reached) can have an unexpected benefit in some people because coffee will displace some of the bzd amounts from the receptor binding sites, resulting in less benzo dependence.

 

Coffee also has a physical dependence profile that is poorly understood and seldom talked about. It is probably the most socially acceptable mood altering substance.

 

I recall when I was with Kaiser and had their insurance years ago, waiting for a prescription for a non-psych med, they had this electronic billboard that would say what blood pressure ranges were low, borderline or high. After that one, there came the next message on the electronic billboard that said "Hey, please stop by our cafeteria and have our delicious coffee". Talk about mixed messages

[[Te...]]

Yes, mixed messages for sure. Do they even get it? Probably not, because a lot of people don't seem have a problem with coffee. I walk around town wondering how people can manage a full Starbucks cup, for example. It always amazes me now to see that.

 

But I have to always watch my blood pressure with coffee. I am finding, however, that for some reason, 1/2 cup of coffee seems to help make my nerves stronger or more resistant to other stimuli. But maybe it's because I'm almost 40 months out. I don't know. I didn't feel I used to have a problem with coffee at all. My nerves have become so sensitive, too sensitive, on coffee.

 

This also reminds me of some women's magazines that are diet issues. Right after that there are pictures of mouth-watering desserts. Talk about a mixed message!

 

Pretty, I can eat sugar without a problem. It doesn't really rev me up. But I can't overdo it. Cigarettes, I've never cared for.

[[Lo...]]

Yes, I wasn't really a morning coffee person (unless I had to wake up super early for work or something of the sort), but  a mid-day cup of coffee was never really a problem for me before the benzodiazepines. It's when I hit tolerance, I'd start getting mild panic attacks when drinking coffee. Something wasn't right. I basically just stopped drinking coffee soon after, and it is one thing I will probably not resume. I have heard that some people do have good results with small amounts of it.

[[Te...]]

If it works for you to do that, Loraz, then it sounds good. I haven't gotten a panic attack in a long time, and the anxiety isn't as bad as it used to be. It's down to a whisper when it used to be screaming. But coffee still brings my bp up, not as much as before, though. I'm on so many pills that cause fog and dizziness. I can barely function. It used to be that that many pills did hardly anything for my blood pressure. I felt like I was on speed a lot of the time. Now it's the opposite. I'm tapering off, but very slowly. I'm just too scared to make any quick changes.

[[Lo...]]

If it works for you to do that, Loraz, then it sounds good. I haven't gotten a panic attack in a long time, and the anxiety isn't as bad as it used to be. It's down to a whisper when it used to be screaming. But coffee still brings my bp up, not as much as before, though. I'm on so many pills that cause fog and dizziness. I can barely function. It used to be that that many pills did hardly anything for my blood pressure. I felt like I was on speed a lot of the time. Now it's the opposite. I'm tapering off, but very slowly. I'm just too scared to make any quick changes.

 

Sounds as if you're doing pretty good, Terry. That must be such a relief not to experience those horrid panic attacks. I'm looking forward to that phase myself.

[[Te...]]

You'll get there, guaranteed!!! I never thought I'd be here. It'll happen!!! It's not over just yet, but it's getting there.

[[Ph...]]

Those of you who don't understand the difference between dependence and addiction, have never actually had an addiction.

<<"Those of you who don't understand the difference between dependence and addiction, have never actually had an addiction.">>

 

I've had both.  I am currently dependent on immunosuppressants to control an autoimmune disease.  Without them, the disease would progress to a dangerous stage.  There are side effects but there is no withdrawal.  Thank goodness I'm not also dependent on Insulin.  But I do depend on the U.S. Postal Service, as unwise as that may seem.

 

But, up until 6 months ago, I had been physically addicted to lorazepam for 20 years.  I engaged in drug seeking behavior.  When faced with the possibility of running out of the drug, I would contact my dealer (doctor) and arrange for a stealthy pick-up (pharmacy).  And there certainly was withdrawal every six hours, although not as difficult as when my first supplier 20 years ago abruptly cut off my 3mg daily supply of Xanax and I ended up in fetal position on my bathroom floor begging God to kill me.  (But boy, when I finally got a 4 mg fix from that ER doctor...what great high that was!)

 

So yes, I understand the difference between dependence and addiction because I've experienced both.  But, honestly, that's not why I take issue with the herd moving toward the nice, safe-space-friendly word "dependence."  The beef I have with the word is that it has no clear meaning "out there."  No edge, no bite and too many word-associations that dilute its meaning.  It's not the kind of word that motivates action and can help force a solution to a public health problem.  I'll give you this, though, it's better than "iatrogenically injured."  Try that one on Main Street!

 

[[Lo...]]

Those of you who don't understand the difference between dependence and addiction, have never actually had an addiction.

<<"Those of you who don't understand the difference between dependence and addiction, have never actually had an addiction.">>

 

But, up until 6 months ago, I had been physically addicted to lorazepam for 20 years.  I engaged in drug seeking behavior.  When faced with the possibility of running out of the drug, I would contact my dealer (doctor) and arrange for a stealthy pick-up (pharmacy).  And there certainly was withdrawal every six hours, although not as difficult as when my first supplier 20 years ago abruptly cut off my 3mg daily supply of Xanax and I ended up in fetal position on my bathroom floor begging God to kill me.  (But boy, when I finally got a 4 mg fix from that ER doctor...what great high that was!)

 

 

Wow, that's horrible. Living through those dreaded Ativan induced interdose withdrawals for 20 years must have been horrific. Wish you had a chance to switch to Klonopin and slowly taper from that, rather than suffering that many years on ativan. From my personal experience, about 2mg of ativan/day seemed to be a breaking point, and my body started rebelling viciously. I think at that point, a crossover or a partial crossover to Klonopin or Valium may be in order, as tapering straight off of ativan is Hades. It's hell on Earth.

 

I think the words "physically addicted" don't do it justice. I prefer to call it: Hell, Hades, Chemical Terror, Horror Movie overexcitation, Nightmare World, Primal Suffering, etc. etc. You get the drift. William Styron called it a "brainstorm" or a "howling tempest in the brain". All good descriptions. Persephone and the Underworld come to mind, as well....

 

I spoke to one psychiatrist and he told me I was on a "low" dose and should go to detox and come back and resume my life like nothing happened. Yeah, right. Dream on.

[[pr...]]

i have been addicted to opiates

 

and dependent on benzos. both different withdrawals. both different experiences.

[[Fl...]]

So yes, I understand the difference between dependence and addiction because I've experienced both.  But, honestly, that's not why I take issue with the herd moving toward the nice, safe-space-friendly word "dependence."  The beef I have with the word is that it has no clear meaning "out there."  No edge, no bite and too many word-associations that dilute its meaning.  It's not the kind of word that motivates action and can help force a solution to a public health problem.  I'll give you this, though, it's better than "iatrogenically injured."  Try that one on Main Street!

 

Again, if you insist on re-labeling something to "do justice" to the condition, please explain to me how you justify the grievous harm that is caused when benzo patients receive improper, inhumane treatment by doctors when they treat someone who is suffering from benzo symptoms the same way they treat someone who is jonesing for a heroin fix.

 

This is like pouring gasoline on a fire to help firefighters see the smoke. I understand your point but I don't think you truly grasp the implications of deviating from the standard definitions of commonly accepted terminology.

[[Lo...]]

[the grievous harm that is caused when benzo patients receive improper, inhumane treatment by doctors when they treat someone who is suffering from benzo symptoms the same way they treat someone who is jonesing for a heroin fix.

 

And that is exactly the point. I have never imagined beyond my wildest dreams that people who decide to live without benzodiazepines or at least want to reduce their dose and live healthier lives would be met with such prejudice, scorn, belittlement, and contempt. If a person identifies that these meds are no longer helping them and looks for support to get off of them in humane, supporting way, they should be given that kind of support, and not just be ripped off their meds and left to suffer in complete agony. This is a human rights issue, and these things should not be happening in the 21st century.

 

Although, from what I've heard, people who decide to get off heroin/opiates for good have to endure a ton of prejudice and humiliation, too, and that's another very vulnerable group of people who also need help much in the same way.

 

Generally, whatever the problem is, people have an inalienable right to live free of chemicals if they choose so, and should get proper medical support.

[[Fl...]]

This is a human rights issue, and these things should not be happening in the 21st century.

 

Most people take for granted that our society has evolved to the point where we no longer have to be constantly concerned about our safety but the reality is that the danger is still there, it just comes in a different form and it is much less obvious to see.

 

 

[[Te...]]

Yes, FG, that is exactly right!

[[pr...]]

Although, from what I've heard, people who decide to get off heroin/opiates for good have to endure a ton of prejudice and humiliation, too, and that's another very vulnerable group of people who also need help much in the same way.

 

 

yes they do need help and yes they do also endure a ton of prejudice.

 

 

Most people take for granted that our society has evolved to the point where we no longer have to be constantly concerned about our safety but the reality is that the danger is still there, it just comes in a different form and it is much less obvious to see.

 

 

not only is it hard to see but there is a gaslight affect to it. they make it out like it's all 'our" fault.