Low Dose Naltrexone - Very Helpful

[[...]]

And I think that's the crux of the problem. Something like LDN looks attractive, especially to those of us with other withdrawal experience, because we can't imagine anything worse than benzo withdrawal. So if something could make it easier we'd consider trading one withdrawal for another.

 

  Well said, Stephen.  I actually came back to add one final thought along those lines.

 

Nexttime, I hope you're not taking this discussion personally?  I totally understand how you feel it's so improved your quality of life.  And that's nothing to take lightly.  I get it, believe me, I get it!  That's why I'm posting here after all.   

 

However, it's still a drug that we're discussing and which you're highly recommending (and promoting ... it's in your sig as well, although I'm happy to see it's linking to this thread).  So we have to exercise caution.  Discuss the pros as well as the cons.  If it makes you feel any better, I'll go on record as saying if I thought for one minute that by reinstating a benzo, a benzo of all things, that it would give me back 50% (less than that even) of my health, I'd do it!!!  In a heartbeat, I'd do it!!!!  Fortunately for me (or not?  ), nothing about reinstating at this point makes any sense to me.  I digressed.  The point I'm trying to make is there are always two sides to everything (or three or ten or more).  It doesn't do anyone any good just reading the positive publicity and not delving a little bit deeper, thinking things through for themselves, and ultimately weighing the risks up against the benefits, and coming to their own conclusions!

 

[[St...]]

I don't get the impression that next time takes it personally. There's no con because none else seems to have experience with it.

[[Ce...]]

Wish I knew of a doctor who would work with trying these things out... But my doctor doesn't even believe in benzo withdrawal

 

How to obtain LDN

https://sites.google.com/site/dudleyslowdosenaltrexonesites/home/how-to-obtain-ldn

 

This is great but is the doc expensive?

[[pr...]]

Firstly, for the record, I certainly have not put huge effort into investigating it at length, but just enough to satisfy myself that I for one have no interest in pursuing it further.  Also, for the record, my *sole* interest in this is my desperation for some pain relief.  Nothing more and nothing less.  Desperation.  That's my disclaimer because I'm a bit concerned about everyone reading this and thinking it's a miracle drug for withdrawal and rushing out to try it.  It's another medicine, bottom line, another poorly understood man-made chemical that we're considering throwing into our already very sensitized nervous systems.

 

 

abcd,

 

in the very beginning of this whole journey, in acute withdrawal i had been in touch with Jack Hobson-Dupont a lot, he is the author of "The Benzo Book" - have you heard of him or seen his name mentioned on here? well, anyway, he was just trying the LDN for himself for some auto-immune issues he was having as he was about ten years benzo free when he decided to try it. and he sent me a book about it that i mostly read as it was a kindle and kinda hard reading on a computer. but anyway, i did some good reading about the LDN and that was why i decided to go on the uldn when i was tapering from the suboxone.

 

by the way, suboxone opiate is  a much different medicine/chemical than LDN. but in all my research about it i knew that the LDN would absolutely not help the benzo withdrawal at all. it's not that kind of medicine. well, in my opinion - nothing will ever help benzo symptoms except time. but i did read some really good reports of the LDN healing people's brain leison's who had MS. and that would be the only reason i would try it out. i think it's probably a medicine that helps auto-immune disorders and such. but from all my reading about i don't think it's a bad medicine and you know how against all drugs i am now. it's definitely something i am interested in trying. but i still want to wait until more healing has occurred with the benzo symptoms because i am scared that it just couldn't be a good thing for me with how kindled and how bad of a brain injury i've had.

 

anyway, you know me and i say to you that when you're feeling up for it you should read a little more about it. there is a book called "The Miracle of Low Dose Naltrexone" is the one that Jack sent to me.  actually just looked it up and not really sure of the books name? i will have to retrace my emails with Jack but here is a link if you're up to it. it's the only thing i want to try next.

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/09/19/one-of-the-rare-drugs-that-actually-helps-your-body-to-heal-itself.aspx

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Hey Pretty.  Heard of Jack, haven't read the book, wonder whether it helped him or not?

 

So yes, I haven't researched it up and down at all, but most of what I did skim through seemed to show the most success perhaps with the autoimmune diseases ... which I don't have  ... my only interest at this time is muscle relaxation and/or pain control.  So, truthfully, I don't have that much personal interest in investigating it further.

 

Yes, definitely take your time if you decide to try it, I agree, Pretty, particularly when your "MS diagnosis" sounds far from convincing, doesn't it?  I'd probably start with the FB groups, read the experiences of people there.  By the way, Benzotired also gave his personal account on the 18-30 Plus thread recently.

 

 

I don't get the impression that next time takes it personally. There's no con because none else seems to have experience with it.

 

Huh?

 

 

 

 

[[St...]]

I don't get the impression that next time takes it personally. There's no con because none else seems to have experience with it.

 

Huh?

 

In the discussion about the pros/cons of LDN no one here was making an argument against it (at the time I posted that) because no one here seems to have experience with it.

[[ne...]]

The point I'm trying to make is there are always two sides to everything (or three or ten or more).  It doesn't do anyone any good just reading the positive publicity and not delving a little bit deeper, thinking things through for themselves, and ultimately weighing the risks up against the benefits, and coming to their own conclusions!

 

 

Well said!!!

[[pr...]]

Hey Pretty.  Heard of Jack, haven't read the book, wonder whether it helped him or not?

 

So yes, I haven't researched it up and down at all, but most of what I did skim through seemed to show the most success perhaps with the autoimmune diseases ... which I don't have  ... my only interest at this time is muscle relaxation and/or pain control.  So, truthfully, I don't have that much personal interest in investigating it further.

 

Yes, definitely take your time if you decide to try it, I agree, Pretty, particularly when your "MS diagnosis" sounds far from convincing, doesn't it?  I'd probably start with the FB groups, read the experiences of people there.  By the way, Benzotired also gave his personal account on the 18-30 Plus thread recently.

 

yeah, i don't think the LDN will help with pain or muscle relaxation. when i'm up for it i will contact Jack and see how it is working for him. i know that in the beginning he said that it did interfere with his sleep and he was trying to find the right dosage. and maybe it won't work for me at all because i am not convinced of the "MS" diagnosis that those Doc's gave me. especially since all those Doc's do not understand withdrawal syndrome. i just hope that those leison's that were on my brain will go away at some point. some did go away when i had my last MRI so i hope that they all will. i did also hear that LDN could help with having a woman have her cycle begin again after she had some trauma/injury or other illness that stopped her cycle of which i have had.

[[ne...]]

LDN helps support a healthy immune system. That helps with pain and inflammation.

 

Inflammation seems to be an underlying cause of disease like cancer and I'm guessing fibromyalgia since it works so well for so many with fibro pain. Again, it's why I started on LDN and I was able to walk without pain the next 3 days. I thought it was purely placebo.

 

I'm still on an LDN holiday and I'm glad I waited as I had a couple of nightmares last night (mild) and am very fatigued today so I know it's not from starting LDN again.  This is the first day I'm home alone and wanted to have a day or two alone in family home before starting again.  LDN is helping others with anxiety and depression. It makes total sense as endorphins are a 'feel good' hormone.

 

I had several weeks of euphoria when I started and I could sure use that again. All was right with the world and all things were good possibilities. It was all during my taper.

 

I started this thread to pull much of the information together that I spent hours researching while flat on my back. I did more in a few short weeks than I had done in years prior it seems.

 

Even if it doesn't help in withdrawal but someone with MS gets their life back, it's still all good information even though it's posted here.  I just feel that LDN may help me die from old age and not disease. That is a comforting thought.

 

Western medicine in it's current model want to give us benzos....they don't tell us about LDN which in my case is helping ward off depression.

[Guest [Le...]]

LDN helps support a healthy immune system. That helps with pain and inflammation.

 

Inflammation seems to be an underlying cause of disease like cancer and I'm guessing fibromyalgia since it works so well for so many with fibro pain. Again, it's why I started on LDN and I was able to walk without pain the next 3 days. I thought it was purely placebo.

 

I'm still on an LDN holiday and I'm glad I waited as I had a couple of nightmares last night (mild) and am very fatigued today so I know it's not from starting LDN again.  This is the first day I'm home alone and wanted to have a day or two alone in family home before starting again.  LDN is helping others with anxiety and depression. It makes total sense as endorphins are a 'feel good' hormone.

 

I had several weeks of euphoria when I started and I could sure use that again. All was right with the world and all things were good possibilities. It was all during my taper.

 

I started this thread to pull much of the information together that I spent hours researching while flat on my back. I did more in a few short weeks than I had done in years prior it seems.

 

Even if it doesn't help in withdrawal but someone with MS gets their life back, it's still all good information even though it's posted here.  I just feel that LDN may help me die from old age and not disease. That is a comforting thought.

 

Western medicine in it's current model want to give us benzos....they don't tell us about LDN which in my case is helping ward off depression.

 

Hi Nexttime, what happened after the first several weeks of euphoria - did you plateau, or experience depression of some kind?

 

My worry would be about trying something, getting relief, and then having it stop - just the way it did with benzos.

 

Thanks for any enlightenment!

[[ne...]]

 

 

Hi Nexttime, what happened after the first several weeks of euphoria - did you plateau, or experience depression of some kind?

 

My worry would be about trying something, getting relief, and then having it stop - just the way it did with benzos.

 

Thanks for any enlightenment!

 

After the euphoria, I just felt balanced. Even energy and upon checking with others who felt it, they were back in balanced energy.

 

I was SO sick for months, it was just an amazing feeling.  I have someone I know who started LDN who has no disease markers or health issues and they felt a few hours of it also. They have had no issues since. They take it from time to time for work for energy. 

 

Hope that helps.

[Guest [Le...]]

Thanks, yes it does.

 

I'm pretty phobic about drugs, but I'm left with some pretty fierce back pain and neuropathy, so there's always the hope that it can somehow be relieved safely.

 

However, some days are better than others, so I keep thinking that as I get further from benzos, the pain may ease up naturally, and with exercise.

[[ne...]]

Thanks, yes it does.

 

I'm pretty phobic about drugs, but I'm left with some pretty fierce back pain and neuropathy, so there's always the hope that it can somehow be relieved safely.

 

I wanted to take some L-Theanine today but held off for the same reason. I don't want to take anything.

[[ne...]]

Info from LDN yahoo group:

 

Yes, LDN can be given to a two-year-old. The suggested dose would be the weight of the child in pounds times a factor of .03. If, for example, the child weighs 50 pounds, the suggested dose would be 50 X .03 = 1.5 mg at bedtime. This site has more information about LDN dosing and side effects: http://tinyurl.com/ldn-side-effects-and-dosing

 

 

Dr. Jacquelyn McCandless treated hundreds of children with LDN for autism. She wrote a book about her experience, "Children With Starving Brains." For more information, visit http://tinyurl.com/ldn-4-autism

Treating Autism With LDN - Dudley's Low Dose Naltrexone Sites

 

An introduction to Low Dose Naltrexone as a treatment for autism.

 

For information about LDN in the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, visit http://tinyurl.com/ldn-4-rheumatoid-arthritis

Treating Rheumatoid Arthritis With LDN - Dudley's Low Dose Naltrexone Sites

 

A discussion of Low Dose Naltrexone in the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis. Includes helpful links.

[[ne...]]

After a holiday from LDN since Sunday, I started again this morning with 2 ml.

 

Later I had energy, was up exercising and dancing around with headphones on with my favorite music. Pain is gone for now and aches are mostly gone along with full muscle fatigue. Got in 10 minutes of cardio (dancing) and some pushups by leaning against the kitchen counter.

 

Skin pain has changed into a vibration kind of feeling. I have a sense of calm but also a feeling of wanting to get some stuff done.  Got in a long hot shower. Back resting now. A good rest after some intense short term work out movements. Stretching some and will stretch again before bed.

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In the discussion about the pros/cons of LDN no one here was making an argument against it (at the time I posted that) because no one here seems to have experience with it.

 

Just do a BB search.  Here are a couple I'd bookmarked, meant to add them in last time, sorry.  Like I've said, I haven't done an exhaustive search, so there are likely more.  These are some people from the "Con" side, less than glowing reports.

 

It had no obvious benefit for me during that time - if anything it made things worse

I'm off the LDN now but it was a bit of a bumpy ride.  It seemed to increase withdrawal symptoms as I lowered it.  Probably should have taken it even slower but got to that 'really just need to be off it' stage. 

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=94117.0

 

 

 

I did start LDN last year and have been off and on it several times. However, I was never able to take it long because it would either activate something latent in my body, causing low grade fever and aches etc, or because my pain was bad enough from spinal cord injury that I needed narcotics which really can't be taken with LDN, as they cancel each other out.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=68204.msg939204#msg939204

 

 

 

I tried the LDN with bad results, sorry to say.  I have a lot of it if you want some. I'll never try it again. It revved me up big time.  Regarding pain control, it didnt do anytihng.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=141544.msg2207904#msg2207904

 

 

 

And copy/pasting this pm, with permission, from a BB who wishes to remain anonymous at this time (only because they're currently dealing with some horrible posting anxiety.  Sending them hugs  ).

 

Yes I tried LDN..  my doctor put me on it when I originally got off the benzo the first time not realizing that the benzo was making me so sick...  he thought I must have developed an autoimmune disease.  I was on LDN the entire time I tapered from valium (once I figured out it was the benzo i reinstated to taper which was a big mistake)  anyway I also had to taper the LDN very slow and I can definitely say it did not help me one bit... However, I joined a LDN facebook group to learn more about it and there are many there that say it has helped them with their autoimmune diseases, and a lot that say it made them worse... soooo i truly believe its just like any medicine where it helps some and others not.. hope Im making sense..  Im kinda afraid of that post because I fear everyone will think its a miracle drug and try it..  altho it could help some people so who knows..  just my experience..  You could always join the LDN facebook group (there are several) and ask some questions.. I think it can help with actual autoimmune diseases but not sure about benzo w/d.. 

 

 

[[ne...]]

That is excellent......thank you.

 

 

[[ne...]]

I knew there was another thread on this but when I started to post there it was several months old so it suggested I start a new thread.

 

I found this as the second post from your 1st link

 

 

i am currently on the ultra low dose of naltrexone. i am looking forward to getting on the LDN. but i first have to get off the suboxone medication because you can't take any opiates while taking the LDN since it also acts on the opiate receptor and will cause severe opiate withdrawals. but the ultra low dose is supposed to help with 'tolerance' of the opiate whatever that means, i don't really know?

 

but when i read the book of the miracles of LDN i was completely hooked on the fact that it could potentially help to heal the leison's on the brain in MS sufferer's and i do have a few leison's. i also have spoken with a few other women on here who claim that the LDN have been helping their benzo withdrawal symptoms. they have been swearing by it which i don't understand because it just acts on the opiate receptor but since it is also supposed to help the immune system by creating more endorphin's--maybe it does help with the body as a whole.

 

I think anyone dealing with autoimmune disorder should definitely know about the LDN option as that, an option. This is something that may help with it yet most doctors don't know or won't talk about it.

 

I hope I've stated all along it's not a miracle cure or it works for everyone.

 

As I stated, I've cleared my system of all LDN since Sunday and today's morning dose had a positive effect.

If a good day in the morning I plan to lower to 1ml and get home if I can and start on some much needed house cleaning.

 

Thanks for those links on the con side. It helps for a more complete picture.

[[...]]

Aaarrghh!   

That's me screaming at myself because I really want to pack my bags and move on from this thread.  But it's just niggling at me so this will be my final post ... hopefully  )

 

Just, by the way, that last quote you pulled in, that's Pretty and she's already contributing to this thread.

 

Here's what's bothering me, Nexttime.  I worry for others reading because, and no offense meant please, but I find your approach way too salesy.    And you're linking to some seriously shitty websites too (I followed your links, I saw one very savvy affiliate marketer thrown in, some Dudley Doodly or whoever the hell he is, etc, etc  ).  And now out of nowhere you're pitching it for TWO YEAR OLDS!  And on a benzo site?  Weird.  Where is that coming from?  This is a MEDICATION.  No matter how awesome you think it is and how amazing your *personal* experience with it has been, the bottom line is it's screwing with our brain/body chemicals and that is *exactly* how we all landed up in this hellacious place in the first place!!!  PLUS, we now all have extra sensitive, compromised nervous systems, so have to be extra, extra cautious. 

 

I know you say you're not trying to convince anyone and aren't claiming it's a miracle drug, but in reality (to me) that's exactly what you're doing.  You're marketing the crap out of it, from arthritis to auto immune diseases to depression, pain, etc., etc.  And generally giving only a one-sided view, unless challenged.  And that's the problem I'm having with this.  We owe it to one another to try and act responsibly, there's just too much pain and suffering on these boards already, and it's very rare to see someone promoting another med so passionately.  Know what I mean?  If you've done such a sh1t load of research, as you say, then I'd have hoped you'd have highlighted some cautionary notes too, including side effects such as *spasticity".  Not so tempting for someone like me asking you about muscle relaxation! 

 

Anyhoo, I'm picking up my bags and really heading off now.  You're a cool guy, Next, I know you're really trying to help.  Really I do.  And maybe you're just being super passionate in general, so I apologize if this sounds a little harsh, but I think it's important.  I just don't want to see anyone inadvertently suffering anymore than they already are.  That's all.

 

I do hope you keep pointing everyone to this one thread so they can get a balanced view and make their own informed decision. 

 

[[pr...]]

You're marketing the crap out of it

 

 

as hopeful as i am about a future trying out the LDN, i am actually done with the whole 'marketing" vibe here myself. so i am going to catch abcd somewhere else on another thread -- and be done here myself. just a little too much. and yes, that was a quote of mine from many years ago actually.

 

have fun!

[[ne...]]

 

 

I do hope you keep pointing everyone to this one thread so they can get a balanced view and make their own informed decision. 

 

 

I am, it's in my sig.

 

As far as marking and sales, not one site I point to is selling anything except the sites that are the compounding pharmacies or pharmacies and they are providing the much needed service that has helped many.

 

I'm glad you have found this doesn't work for you and you are choosing to move on to other solutions.

The https://www.ldnscience.org/ site is Hersey Medical Center Penn State University.

There are other Universities doing research in the states and some extensive studies in the UK.

 

I have posted all the links as it is part of the rules of the board. To post links to sites that have information so it's not all personal opinion.

 

The 'spacitity' issue shows up in MS patients and a very good reason for posting the links, so people can do their own research for them. They need to be aware of it and start at a lower dose of 0.50 mg to avoid that issue. I did a lot of work and this is a list of the sites I found that I could understand and that helped me. There is a wikipedia site I couldn't fully understand and I am adding that here. I am unable to add to the first post as the modify button is gone after a few hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-dose_naltrexone

 

The Dudley site is a clearing house of information also. Nothing is sold there.

He is one of the hardest working individuals on the yahoo group.

 

It has been proven effective in Autistic children.

 

I hope you find things that work for you.

I'm sorry if this feels like a sales thread to you.

I'm not making any money on this, only sharing information.

Some are passionate about CBD oil and some about magic mushrooms.

With that information from those threads, I have decided that those are not on my path to healing.

 

If you feel this thread is not within the guidelines of the board, please report this and the moderators will pull it.

 

 

[[ne...]]

Here is the search results from NIH.GOV on LDN

 

https://search.nih.gov/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&affiliate=nih&query=ldn&commit=Search

 

 

 

The use of low-dose naltrexone (LDN) as a novel anti ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3962576/

Low-dose naltrexone (LDN) has been demonstrated to reduce symptom severity in conditions such as fibromyalgia, Crohn’s disease, multiple sclerosis, ...

 

Low dose naltrexone for induction of remission in Crohn's ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24558033

Low dose naltrexone for induction of remission in Crohn's disease. ... Low dose naltrexone, an opioid antagonist, has garnered interest as a potential ...

 

Low-dose naltrexone for the treatment of fibromyalgia ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23359310/

Low-dose naltrexone for the treatment of fibromyalgia: findings of a small, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, counterbalanced, ...

 

The use of low-dose naltrexone (LDN) as a novel anti ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24526250/

The use of low-dose naltrexone (LDN) as a novel anti-inflammatory treatment for chronic pain. Younger J(1), Parkitny L, McLain D.

 

Naltrexone - National Institutes of Health

livertox.nih.gov/Naltrexone.htm

Introduction . Naltrexone is a synthetic opioid antagonist used in prevention of relapse of opiate adiction and alcoholism. Naltrexone has been ...

 

Low-dose naltrexone for disease prevention and quality of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19041189

Low-dose naltrexone for disease prevention and quality of life. ... [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Publication Types: Research Support, Non-U.S. ...

 

Low dose naltrexone therapy in multiple sclerosis.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15694688

Low dose naltrexone therapy in multiple sclerosis. Agrawal YP(1). Author information: (1)Department of Pathology, The University of Iowa Roy J. and ...

 

[Low dose naltrexone in the treatment of dissociative ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25421416

1. Nervenarzt. 2015 Mar;86(3):346-51. doi: 10.1007/s00115-014-4015-9. [Low dose naltrexone in the treatment of dissociative symptoms]. [Article in ...

 

Low-dose naltrexone therapy improves active Crohn's disease.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17222320

Low-dose naltrexone therapy improves active Crohn's disease. Smith JP(1), Stock H ... LDN therapy appears effective and safe in subjects with active ...

 

Effect of naltrexone on senile dementia of the Alzheimer type.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1028579/

Terry RD, Katzman R. Senile dementia of the Alzheimer type. Ann Neurol. 1983 Nov; 14 (5):497–506. Iversen LL, Rossor MN, Reynolds GP, Hills R, Roth M, ...

 

PubMed - National Center for Biotechnology Information

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20042414

Revisiting the ALA/N (alpha-lipoic acid/low-dose naltrexone) ... [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Publication Types: Case Reports; MeSH Terms. ...

 

Geller Lab Home Page - National Institutes of Health

ldn.nhlbi.nih.gov/

Movie of a cultured mouse Dorsal Root Ganglion Neuron growth cone growing on poly-L-lysine deflected by Chondroitin Sulfate Proteoglycans (green).

 

Low dose naltrexone (LDN) enhances maturation of bone ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24455776

Low dose naltrexone (LDN) enhances maturation of bone marrow dendritic cells (BMDCs). Meng J, Meng Y, Plotnikoff NP, Youkilis G, Griffin N, Shan F.

 

Safety and tolerability of low-dose naltrexone therapy in ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23188075

Safety and tolerability of low-dose naltrexone therapy in children with moderate to severe Crohn's disease: a pilot study.

 

Ex vivo studies for the passive transdermal delivery of ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24785567

Low-dose naltrexone (LDN) therapy has shown promising results in the treatment of several autoimmune disorders. Our aim was to formulate NTX into a ...

 

Pilot trial of low-dose naltrexone and quality of life in ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20695007

Pilot trial of low-dose naltrexone and quality of life in multiple sclerosis. Cree BA(1), Kornyeyeva E, Goodin DS.

 

Treatment of Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS) Using ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23546884

Treatment of Complex Regional Pain Syndrome (CRPS) using low dose naltrexone (LDN). Chopra P(1), Cooper MS.

 

Fibromyalgia symptoms are reduced by low-dose naltrexone ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19453963

Fibromyalgia symptoms are reduced by low-dose naltrexone: ... we tested the effectiveness of low-dose naltrexone in treating the symptoms of ...

[[pr...]]

The 'spacitity' issue shows up in MS patients and a very good reason for posting the links, so people can do their own research for them. They need to be aware of it and start at a lower dose of 0.50 mg to avoid that issue.

 

thanks for all the info nexttime.

[[Je...]]

I wondered if this affects the vagus nerve?

[[do...]]

Very interesting. I'm going to follow along