Re: Newbie/Shocked _SA

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Hi Colin

I think the begining of something new and positive is exciting,but i know and have been through the w/d and have read about it on here. I am not naive but try to remain excited(anxious?) about starting this journey.

I know no other life but benzos so this will be awesome!

 

Dena

[Guest [...]]

Hi Dena,

I lost you because you are here in Community and not on planning your taper. Let's move you to Planning Your Taper. Once again I'll have to leave and come back here.

 

As inspiration, remember that I was so severly symptomatic that I couldn't make a single cut in the usual manner. I was stuck there for a long time at 13.5mg Valium.  On the day I began a 0.05mg cut daily, things changed. I was able to increase this right away, and I then cut at one and one half of the usual Ashton goal. For me, this was the magic! Titration s just very different.

 

If you can do this with a benzo, you can do it with the other drugs after the benzo.  You can be free of all of it.

Jana

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Let's move you to Planning Your Taper.

 

Done! 

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Thanks Jan,

Now I just need to master the titration! Yikes

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Hi all, Jana

Is the point to lessen the amount of milk (with the valium in it) as you go along? I am feeling my tolerance level is knocking at my door and would really like to get going before i end up on another set of pills. Although im keen to get started,im nervous already.

Dena

[[Co...]]

Hi Dena,

 

Jana is more up to speed with your taper. I'll look at this later if Jana has not already done so.

[[Co...]]

Hi Dena,

 

I think what Jana proposed is the following.

 

You now take six 5mg tablets (30mg in total) of Valium per day.

 

Take five of these tablets whole, and titrate just one tablet.

 

Assuming that you are going to take three doses per day, you need to divide the five tablets into as equal amounts as you can manage. I suggest that you take 1¹/₂ tablets in the morning (7.5mg); 1³/₄ (8.75mg) in the middle of your day;  1³/₄ (8.75mg) at night. Whatever the actual timings, you should aim to space them about eight hours apart. I would also recommend that you obtain 2mg Valium tablets, as they will allow you to spread your doses into much more equal amounts.

 

Now, you take one 5mg tablet and let it dissolve in a small amount of the homogenised milk. When you are sure it is dissolved, top up the milk to 30ml (I know this figure differs from Jana's). It would make sense to do this in a sealed container, and give it good shake to make sure that the Valium is even distributed.

 

You take the tablets as described, and top this up with your liquid. The liquid should be split into three 10ml doses. The idea is to take a little less of liquid each day. If you deduct 0.1ml from each 10ml of your liquid doses, you will be reducing your dosage by 0.15mg per day. This is 0.5% of your total daily dose. You drink the remaining liquid. Although this is probably manageable by most people, and would be considered a pretty gentle taper, it might be sensible for you take it a little more slowly, and see how it goes. Here are two alternative options.

 

First option: you could make up milk to twice the volume (that's 60ml), again split this into three doses (now 20ml each), and like before, remove 0.1ml each day. This means that you will be reducing your daily dose by 0.075mg. This is 0.25% per day - a very slow taper.

 

Second option: increase the volume to 45ml, split into three doses of 15ml. Again, you remove 0.1ml per day, and drink the remaining liquid. This will give you daily cut of 0.1mg, 0.33% of you total daily dose.

 

If you are feeling particularly nervous, go for the 60ml option, but I think it nearly eveyone can manage faster taper than that. If things go well, you can always pick up the rate of your taper. Of course you can alter the figures to any taper rate you wish. I hope that these examples give you better idea of what you need to do. The fastest taper above is 0.5% per day - I think the majority of people can manage a 1% cut per day - Jana is much more cautions than me though. The important opinion is you own though. being failrly cautious, especially if you good reason, would be sensible though. The taper rate can always increased quite easily!

 

Jana may well post a slightly different approach. She's far more experienced with titration than I (she's the one with the real experience), so it would be good idea to read what she might have to say. In the end though, use whatever approach you feel most comfortable with.

 

Since you are not using homogenised milk, do be sure to give the milk a good shake before you remove the liquid you will be discarding, so that the Valium is evenly distributed.

 

Edited to correct my own fiugures.

[Guest [...]]

Dena, This is just what I would do.

 

I would make a supply of Valium liquid using what tablets you have. Make it at 1.0mg in 20.0ml of liquid. This will give you 0.1mg in every 2.0 ml. You can use this information to make adjustments to your taper as needed. Holding a dose is the best way to handle increased symptoms. If you are making these small reductions, you won't have a lot to correct even if you enter a bad spot.

 

If you want to follow Colin's suggestion of a 10% reduction over 14 days, you would want to reduce close to 0.2mg each day.  This is in 4.0ml. You can do that with this 1:20 strength. Just use 4.0ml less of your liquid each day. If this is too much for you, you can reduce by 2.0ml each day.

 

If the cut that worked well for a long time starts to cause problems, just reduce it. You have plenty of wiggle room with a 1:20 strength.

 

It can help preserve the liquid to add a ml or so of Vodka as part of the liquid. Keep it in your fridge.

 

The milk's value is in its evenly dispersed fat globules. The Valium  is carried by the fat. So homogenized is essential. If your milk is low fat, using some homogenized cream can help. Shake it well anyway. If your tablet needs help, crush it. Mine always disappeared quickly into the milk.

 

Once you find your best taper rate, this should work for  along time. At doses of lower than 5.0mg, you may want to take smaller steps or cuts. You still can use this same strength of liquid Valium for that.

Keep records as you use your doses. This will serve you well as well as provide a record for your doctor.

 

Don't be freaked out by bad days. Just adjust as necessary. There always are reasons for bad patches. Hold on or reduce the cut. Don't up dose for a special occasion. No occasion is worth that. Never give up the ground that you fought for. Do it for your babies.

 

You will find that none of the drugs is doing any more than making itself necessary. This enslaves you. You are a bystander as your life seeps down the drain. So fight for it. It really will surprise you; you'll love your new freedom.

Best of luck with this,

Jana

[Guest [...]]

Hi Dena,

I see that I didn't address the tablet with liquid subject.

How many mgs are in one of your tablets?

Jana

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Hi Jana, Colin

 

There are 5mg in each of my tablets, i am supposed to take 2 three times a day. No specifics on what times.

Dena

[[Co...]]

Hi Jana, Colin

 

There are 5mg in each of my tablets, i am supposed to take 2 three times a day. No specifics on what times.

Dena

 

Hi. This is what I had understood that you had meant. It's best to take the tablets is equal doses, at equal time intervals. That would be 10mg, 8 hours apart, of course. Obviously, you need to make changes with your titration taper.

[Guest [...]]

Dena,

It's possible to decide how much youwill use on a day and then measure out the wholeamount from the liquid that you made.This is a lot of liquid mixture to work with.

 

So you will probably want to get what you can from tablet form, then the smaller bits from a liquid.

 

If you use six tablets of 5.0mg each in a day, you would use five tablets plus the rest  in premade liquid form. This is to avoid cutting tablets and therefore being as accurate as possible.

 

Let's say that you want the whole30.0mg just for practice. You put five of the tablets into the measuring cup. Then you put the other five mgs in from the liquid form. Then you add enough milk to have something that you can divide into doses easily.

 

If you want to cut 0.2mg daily, you will cut 4.0ml daily. This is using a 1:20 strength.

 

You put five tablets(25.0mg)in the measuring cup. Then you subtract your cut from the other five mgs. This is 5.0mg less 0.2mg or 4.98mg in liquid form. Put this into the cup. Now add enough milk to make an amount that you can divide into doses.

 

Everyday for a while, you will use five tablets plus the liquid form of the other five mgs with 0.2mg or 4.0ml less.

 

If you write this on paper and make your own plan, it might be better. This is just a suggestion. A willing pharmacist does this sort of thing too.

Jana

 

 

 

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Hi Jana,Colin

 

Thank you for going to all that trouble to describe the tiration method which i am trying to understand, i am used to taking my 5mg of valium spread as evenly as possible through out the days in 5mg doses, it makes me feel safer knowing i have a pill waiting, thats why i am having trouble with the "take the 10mg 3 times a day 8 hourly"

 

Can i not just dissolve a 5mg tablet in 100ml of milk and lessen by 4 mls a day? isn't that 25 days or do i need to start on a  .something having been on them so long?

 

I am getting whole milk tomorrow, and i feel like a clutz not being able to figure this out.

do i need 3 columns ..yes or no? to write down the pill/milk/tenth% ?

 

Im so terribly lost here. I live in a rural farming area so support or any kind of a helping hand is well not there.

Im not managing here at the moment,and i don't know if it's true for other members, any kind of shopping or family event warrented more drugs to cope. I have that tomorrow and at the end of the month. I am a bit of a recluce, and the benzo's just made/make life a blur.

But on the other hand, life might just be a whole lot of fun..ups and downs expected.

just floundering here!

 

I can only get 5mg tablets.

Best i can do.

Dena

 

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Thanks for the quick response Jana,

 

I think i have a fair idea of what this titration entails so hopefully i can begin on wednesday.

I will see if my pharmacist can help out, one way or another I'll get it done.

Dena

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Hi Colin, Jana, anyone

 

Why do you have to take Valium every 8 hours..is this for a specific reason? any comments are most welcome.

[[Th...]]

Maybe someone else will come and correct me, but I don't think you *necessarily* have to take the Valium three times a day. The half-life of that drug is long enough that you could take it just once a day. However, some people clear drugs from their system really rapidly--Jana is one of those people. She had to divide her Valium into multiple doses. I would say you could start with once a day, but then if you notice that your withdrawal symptoms get worse right before your day's dose, try dividing it into two parts, twelve hours apart. If you still notice a problem, you could divide it into three parts.

 

I think part of what Colin and Jana were trying to get across is that if you do divide your Valium into multiple doses, make sure they're evenly spaced during the day, so that the amount of drug in your system stays reasonably constant.

[[Co...]]

Hi,

 

Yes, twice a day is probably often enough with Valium. More often will not cause any harm though, and may be even better. You may well notice little or no difference though. As Therese wrote, it is making sure that the doses are evenly spread that's important. That would be 15mg twice a day - 12 hours apart; 10mg three times a day - 8 hours apart; or 7.5mg four times a day - 6 hours apart (or as close as you can manage it without waking yourself up to take a dose).

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Hi Therese, Colin

I am afraid i have let myself down today, I Had to go with my mom to have her hair done, then me off to the dentist and lastly shopping. I am sure i have mention i am a bit of a recluse, and suffer from agoraphobia. So I took 35mg of Valium from 7.30am till about 11.30am.

I have an extremely high tolerance for these types of pills, yes i felt tired, no i didn't need to sleep, actually as the day progressed i got more and more anxious, leading me to conclude that the only thing making me feel that kind of anxiety was too much Valium..and round and round we go. It's now 9pm and I'm still not ready for bed.

I really feel down about that because i was/am so positive for getting rid of this junk! change.I keep wondering as little as i do get out-am i going to need these crutches? I want to clobber myself over the head for being so stupid.

 

I have homogenised milk now and am doing the 10% over 14 days taper starting tomorrow.

see how that works. Perhaps I need a slower titration through out the day? I don't know? Lets see how this goes and i need to space my doses evenly and alot of them.

 

There is a family gathering neat week and im trying to positive words in my head. But tomorrow i will start, and i know i will have a benzo "hangover"

[[Th...]]

  Sorry to hear about your day.

 

As you discovered, for someone who is dependent on these drugs, popping more of them does not make you feel better. Your body learned a long time ago how to compensate with these chemicals in your system.

 

I had the same fears as you about coming off benzos. What if my anxiety comes back? What if the panic attacks get worse? Will I be able to function without this stuff? Well, as I got lower and lower on the Valium, things gradually began to change. VERY gradually. Many people, once they're off benzos, find that their underlying reason for taking the drugs in the first place has just disappeared.

 

Tomorrow is a new day, and a new start. The first day of your taper!

[[Co...]]

Hi Dena,

 

It is important, even vital, that you control your dosing before you start upon this process. What I can say is that just about everyone reports that they can manage their anxiety far better once off benzos than they ever could whilst on them. Benzos stop working on anxiety within some months, and in the end just make it worse. It seems that once people have conquored benzos, they are stronger and are better able to tackle anxiety. Like the old saying: what doesn't kill us makes us stronger!

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Hi there Therese, Colin, All

How long does one have to be 'stable' on (in my case valium) before i can start to cut down?

Discipline is a bit of a problem. I have no set hours as i am an artist (and i dont go out the house,only when vital) so i sometimes paint all night and sleep most of the day...it varies from day to day.

Should i get into a 9 to 5 pattern?

I am going to be the thorn in your sides but i really am battlling to grasp the titration thing.

5mg pill>to>?Milk?>how much do you take way each day,milk? im lost.no good at numbers.

anyone who can lend a hand would make my day!

I cant go to my pharmacist, he will alert my pdoc and i won't get the valium to go off very very slowly.

i have to walk around making notes on post its to remind me of what to do-it's as if my thinking/memory capacity is gone..is this common? How long does it last after titration?

i'm still seeing things that are common but have taken on a different form. Spiders is one i see a lot (im not afraid of them at all)...snakes..terrified. I need to buy very dark glasses as my eyes feel like they are being burned by the sun. I think this is common too.

Weekend's coming so i can spend some more time on the titration math.

 

Thank you all for your support, quick replies, and understanding.

Dena

[[Co...]]

Hi Dena,

 

I will try to work on simpler system for the titration. In the meantime, can you get hold of 2mg tablets? Your present tablets won't go to waste, as you can mix-and-match. Whilst I work on a system that is easier, you could be reducing your dose in small increments (a quarter of a tablet - 0.5mg). You'd remove this from just one of your doses (not the one before you go to bed). This cut is 1.67%; you should not notice it. You can make similar cuts every few days (twice a week maybe) for a gentle taper.

 

You should take your doses at equal intervals throughout the day. If your sleep patterns are variable, just take the tablets as near to your normal time as possible. Regular sleep will probably help your situation. When making a fresh cut, take it from another of your daily doses. You should remove doses in a stepwise fashion, so keeping the doses as even as possible. The nighttime dose should be the last one to cut to match the other doses.

 

As I said, I will work on the titration figures for you.

 

Take care.

[[Th...]]

Dena,

 

Yes, forgetfulness, memory loss, and inability to concentrate are classic benzo w/d symptoms. I'm dealing with them myself  . There's no telling when it will go, unfortunately. I have found in my taper that I have worse periods and better periods. During the first part of my taper, I could hardly think. Then one day, my thinking was clear again! It was that fast. Unfortunately, as I continued on with the taper, things got foggy again. Then they cleared. Now they're foggy again. It's crazy.

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Hi Therese, Colin

Colin I did manage to get 2mg Valium prescribed for me yesterday, nice pdoc so willing. Didn't even ask what for! Yes Therese I doubt i am w/d from my last batch of benzo's but certainly have become very tolerant of the amount i am taking now, in fact I'm so skittish and have so many of the w/d symptoms now is the time my pdoc would up my dose and put me on another benzo.

I hate to say this but for the upcoming family thing, i am pondering about needing extra help! Why do they make these things so flipping addictive. And then you need to cope with the anti /dep too. Is the end in sight...ever?

 

Colin, do you think that cut is go relatively unnoticed by my body?

 

Therese, i keep thinking i have left the tap on..i can hear running water...dash madly to the bathroom/kitchen..and the taps not on.

Are our minds really able to send these messages to us when logically most times the information is totally screwed up. Whats happened to my brain?

 

Thank you Colin for trying to work a simpler taper for me.

 

To all thanks for the support.

Quick replies.

Understanding.

 

Dena

[[Co...]]

Hi Dena,

 

Don't be tempted to take more. This is totally at odds with your aim to quit.

 

Yes, a 1.67% decrease is small. Your blood levels will vary far more than this between doses anyway. If you were to cut by this amount every day, you would probably be asking for trouble though.

 

I think you might benefit from leaving it a week from the first cut. Since Valium has such a long half-life, it will take a while for your average blood levels to drop with this cut. A week should be enough time for you really know how you have reacted to the cut. I think the only downside with titrating Valium daily is that it can take a while for withdrawal symptoms to show (as the drop in blood levels lag behind your cuts). Still, small daily cuts is infinitely better than large cuts made infrequently. It would be better to try this initial cut, and give yourself plenty of time to assess the outcome. As I said, I'd be surprised if you even noticed it, and the week off from cutting will give you the confidence to continue when you realise know that it was OK.