Re: Newbie/Shocked _SA

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Hi Colin

As i said "a thorn in your side".

:idiot:do you not favour titration?, the cut you suggest of quarter of a tablet (0.5) i am assuming you are referring to a 2mg pill. I have no idea how the persentages are worked out

so i just take a 2mg pill, divide it into 4 and take a quarter away twice a week, after the initial week trial period and seeing if i am doing alright...and if all is well, continue?

Please tell me that it's that simple! As for the persentages..well that will take time.

 

I am determined to get that 30mg Valium on the decrease.!!

 

Thanks for the help.

It's always appreciated

 

Dena

[[Th...]]

Dena,

 

Yes, the brain sends very confusing messages when you're in w/d. People get dyslexic and yes, just like you, hear things that aren't there.

 

Colin is right. You will only be hurting yourself if you take more. But remember what happened the last time you took more--it didn't even make you feel any better. For someone who is dependent, the benzos just don't have the same "feel-good" effect as with someone who is not dependent.

 

The a/d will not be nearly as hard to taper as the benzo. Nothing is as hard as the benzo. You're getting the hardest thing out of the way first.

[[Th...]]

Colin is suggesting that you make a .5 mg cut, which is done by quartering a 2 mg tablet. So you will be taking 29.5 mg of Valium this week instead of 30. Then, if things go well, you can make this .5 mg cut twice a week.

 

This cutting tablets is only until Colin and I can get a *simple* titration plan figured out. Colin actually highly favors titration. But you're at a large enough dose that cutting tablets in the beginning should not cause a problem. It will at least get you started in the right direction.

 

If you ever want to find what percentage cut you're making, just take the cut amount and divide it by the whole dose of benzo. So you're making a cut of .5, and you're on 30 mg benzo. That would be a .5 / 30 = .016666... cut, or 1.67 percent. You just move the decimal point two places to convert to the percent. Easy, huh?

 

Therese

[[Co...]]

I think that working out the percentage you are cutting by is the most reliable way of assessing how big a cut you really are making. If you cut by 1mg from your 2mg dose, this is cutting your dose in half. Removing 1mg from 50mg is just a fiftieth (2%). The body tends to notice the cut more in relation to the whole rather than as absolute figure. What I mean is, the body will probably react far more to a person removing 1mg from the 2mg dose, than the person removing 1mg from their 50mg dose. This means that as daily dose becomes smaller, the cuts should be smaller. Percentages allow us to monitor this. Don't worry about the maths, we will keep an eye on it for you. When you are on a lower dose, I'm sure it will be far clearer to you.

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Hi Therese, Colin, all

 

There is a problem that's going to throw this all out of wacko, I got the prescription from my pdoc for 2mg Valium and unfortunately i cannot afford Valium this month. I am going to give you the price of Valium here on my dosage (R500.00) and the generic i can afford (R17.00).

R500,00 is a weeks groceries.

The generic they have given me does not come in 2mg, it's called Betapam and the lowest it goes is 5mg.

I am sorry to put a spanner in the works, if i half the tablet its 2.5mg yes? and halve that again, 1.25mg yes?

Is it possible to do a cut like that, or perhaps simpler to go with titration. I really do apologise for the inconvenience, i know you have been trying to help me out.

you made it all so clear Therese, can we work with these silly betapam tablets?

I will try and take them at regular times and try to get a sleep pattern.

I drink about 10 cups of tea a day and I'm sure that has to go too...i will start that tomorrow.

 

Once again sorry about that

and my smiley was ME as the idiot not you Colin

 

Thank you for being supportive

Dena

[[Th...]]

Hi, Dena,

 

Don't worry. We want to get you on a titration schedule anyway, and it won't matter whether you have 2 mg or 5 mg tabs for that.

 

Regarding cutting 1.25 mg (yes, your math was right ), let's see what Colin has to say. It's really still not that big of a cut: 1.25 mg / 30 mg = .04166..., or 4.166... percent. Professor Ashton has her patients cut at 2 mg at the 30-mg-Valium mark. So I would think it's okay to make the cut. But let's wait for Colin first, since he's more experienced at this.

 

There's no need to apologize...we're happy to help!

 

Therese

[[Co...]]

Hi,

 

Yes, that should still be manageable. As Therese wrote, Ashton would have her patients make bigger cuts than that. We will soon post new instructions for you to manage your titration. In the meantime, you should be fine with this cut. Do leave at least a week between the cuts so that you monitor your progress. We will have new instructions for soon enough anyway.

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Hi Colin, Therese

 

Can i make a 2.5mg cut. Just halving the tablet  to get a 1.25 cut just turns the pill into powder. I feel  fine to start on that cut but can i stay on it a week or two. Is this viable?

 

Another question, does Valium/or generic cause low blood pressure? anyone know? If you are not taking your medication at regular times does this mess with it?

 

Still seeing shadows that are not there !

 

Thanks for your help and for being so supportive.

 

Dena

 

 

[[Co...]]

Hi Dena,

 

That's getting to be pretty big cut. Might be better if you give us a day or so to post up new titration instructions for you.

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Hi Colin,

 

I am hurrying you.

Take your time and i know what you come up with will help.

 

thanks a million

Dena

[[Th...]]

Argh! How frustating. First they don't have the 2 mg tabs, then the stuff crumbles... Maybe crumbly tablets are designed to make sure we stay dependent! Sometimes you wonder. 

 

According to the Roche website (Roche is the lovely company that created Valium), yes, Valium can cause hypotension (low blood pressure). It's listed as an *infrequently* reported side effect. The withdrawal process normally raises people's blood pressure, however. In fact, sometimes people's blood pressure gets dangerously high. I don't think that taking the med at irregular times would mess with the blood pressure, since Valium's half-life is so long.

 

I agree with Colin. Let's get the titration schedule for you. Let's look at the bright side of things: those crumbly tablets should dissolve very easily in milk!

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Hi Therese

 

Always focus on the prize, go through hell and end up in bliss. I agree the crumbling pills will dissolve better in milk. My pdoc increased my seroquel by 25mg and im wondering if thats not the culprit making me feel dizzy and lightheaded and very very strange. I'm on such a low dose i can't tell. I take a huge dose of vitamin E and a multi vit.. Perhaps just change the things around to see whats making me feel so bad.

 

Hope you had a good day Therese and Colin.

Thanks to you who help

It gets me through the day

I am still a little shy to talk to anyone on this site.

Maybe soon.

 

Dena

[[Co...]]

Hi,

 

I've been pretty poorly the past couple of day, so have not been getting on with this. I've just completed the first draft based on recent discussions with the rest of the team. I will need some feedback from them before I post it to the forum. We are trying to come up with a simple system, but also a way of explaining it that is easy to understand. There will be supporting tables too, so there is a fair bit to sort out. Anyway, I'm hoping to have something up for everyone within two or three days. Coming up with a guide is tricky as we tend to understand our own instructions - the difficult part is making them so others can easily follow them.

[[Th...]]

Seroquel is a very powerful drug. My doctor gave me some 25 mg tabs and some 100 mg tabs. He said to start with the 25 mg tabs. Well, I took one of them, and it knocked me out completely. I fell asleep on the living room floor in my clothes and slept for over 12 hours. Yikes. I waited a couple of days, then tried it again. Same thing happened. I couldn't imagine taking the 100 mg tabs! Other people on this board have had the same reaction--so even increasing the dose by 25 mg can have noticeable effects.

 

If you're wondering if it's the Seroquel making you feel strange, could you go back to your old dose for a few days? That might give you an idea.

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Hey there Colin and Therese plus anyone who reads this.

 

Thanks Colin and the rest of the team for trying to get the titration method a simple as possible as you well know our brains are in a bit of a state!!

Therese, maybe it is the seroquel, i will try and cut out the extra 25mg and see how i feel.

 

I am going away for a week and geezzz I'm hoping to get through it,anxiety is at an all time high!!

So when i get back maybe there will be a cure for my crumbling pills

 

Thanks for the support

Dena

[[Co...]]

Yes, we hope to have the new instructions up within a few days.

 

Enjoy your week away.

[[Co...]]

Hi Dena,

 

Sorry, it has been longer than I had hoped for. I won't publish a full instruction manual here, as we are still ironing out some details. We have ripped apart all the ideas and assumptions people make about titration. What it boils down to is that there is no point in making the liquids to very exacting strengths for minuscule reductions because there is no way we can measure that accurately in the home. Even if we could, we would expect the actual dose within individual tablets to vary somewhat - these inaccuracies swamp any attempt to make up exacting benzo liquids. What we have decided is that there is no real point in trying to make cuts smaller then 1% of dose per day (1ml from 100ml of liquid, for example). Once we accept this to be true, it frees up the method considerably - it becomes quite straight forward. If taper rates of 1% or more per day are too great for you, then you simply instead make the cuts every two or three days to suit. We will give you all the information you need.

 

OK, before I start, I need you to again restate your position. I think you take a total of 30mg Valium per day. You take six 5mg tablets - is that correct? What cuts have you carried out in the past that you felt were successful? How much of a cut from what dose, and for how long you felt you needed to stay at the new dose. Once you have replied to these enquiries, I'll post the figures you need, and a simple method. You will need a 100ml measuring cylinder marked with 1ml increments.

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Hi Colin

 

What a week,i can't say i was very good with my meds.

I do take 30mg of Valium or Betapam (generic here) and have no stable pattern in taking them, I sometimes miss doses, but usually the 6 tablets are spaced throughout the day but NOT at 8 hour intervals.

I understand the way you are heading with the new titration method. Thing is, it has to be done that way when your tablets crumble. I am no good with numbers, is 1% .03?

I know you are under a lot of pressure with Jan leaving (just read that), i don't expect an instant answer. when you have it sorted.

 

Cheers

Dena

[[Co...]]

Hi Dena,

 

A stable pattern is important. There is no need to take valium more than three times a day, and twice a day is probably more than adequate. What I suggest is that you first get into a regular routine - we will then work on the titration for you. It will work something like this. These figures are based upon assumptions, you should not use them Once you are ready for the taper we will discuss what taper rate you might manage.

 

The method will be something like the following. You will need a 100ml measuring cylinder marked off at 1ml intervals and homogenised milk.

 

1) Take one of your 5mg tablets. Crush this to fine powder with back of a spoon in a cup.

 

2) Add a little homogenised milk to the powder, stir, and leave for a few minutes, then pour this benzo-milk mix into the cylinder.

 

3) Pour a little more of the milk into the cup, swirl around, and empty this into the cylinder. This will ensure that you have transferrred all of the benzo.

 

I am going to make the assumption that you can manage a cut of 10% of your present dose every 14 days.

 

4) Based on the above assumption, top up the milk in the cylinder with homogenised milk to 24ml. Mix thoroughly.

 

5) Dispose of 1ml of the liquid. This is your first cut of the dosage.

 

6) Crush the remaining 5 tablets in the cup, and as before add a little milk. Allow the powder to dissolve, add the milk to the cylinder. Again, add a little milk to the cup, swirl, and add to the cylinder.

 

7) Optionally, top up the milk to a level convenient for your regimen. The amount of liquid at this stage will depend on how much you have just added from the cup. The whole of you day's dose is now in the cylinder. If, for example, you take your benzos twice a day, you might decide to top up the level of milk to 80ml, to give you two convenient 40ml doses. When you get to low amounts of liquid, this is something you should definately be doing to increase accuarcy.

 

On day two, go thorough the same proceedure, but after step 5 remove an additional 1ml. Day three, remove another 1ml, etc., etc.

 

Again, to make things easier to measure, you don't have to work from the original 24ml of liquid. You could double this to 48ml, and instead discard 2ml per day.

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Hi Colin

 

Just a short note to say thank you for the work on my titration (when i am more stable) i will try and take the Valium in 3 doses of 10mg, morning, noon, night. I am having a lot of trouble keeping check because of personal family reasons, but i so want off these things i am willing to fight!

I can't remember yesterday, bits of it, or the day before, this is a nightmare.

How long must i be in a stable mode? and i think i have asked this before...how many weeks?

 

Thank you for your support

 

Cheers

Dena

[[Co...]]

Hi Dena,

 

I think 'how long' is something for you to answer. Once you feel you have control over your dosing, is how long.

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Hi there Colin and all,

 

This is as close as it gets as far as "stable" goes with me on my medication, and i am happy with that. Hopefully the excitement of finally starting to get the number down will create a more regimented routine.

I am ready now. Lets get going.

 

Cheers

Dena

 

[[...]]

Hey there all,

 

Hope you haven't forgotten me? Is there any information that you need from me with regards to my medication?

 

Hope to hear from anyone soon...battling here!!

Cheers

Dena

[[Co...]]

Hi Dena,

 

I don't think so. You can start your taper just using your pills (pill-splitting), or we can post the instructions for titration. They are becoming more straightforward.

[[Th...]]

Colin, all she has is 5mg tablets, so she can't cut anything less than 1.25 mg. So we need to get her doing titration.