Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[[We...]]

I thought I'd follow Sharky's lead and put a nice huggy pic of me and my fiance

[[sh...]]

I thought I'd follow Sharky's lead and put a nice huggy pic of me and my fiance

 

Yay!!  good stuff 

[[an...]]

******* liquid sensitivity verses solid microtaper*********

 

I really do have a theory why some people, no matter who hard or often they try don't seem to do well with liquids.

 

Having tried the liquid myself for 2 days and feeling the different affects, reading the experiences on here, being a long standing multi-psych med user, supplement user etc.

 

I really believe it has something to do with the liquid being absorbed more easily, therefor hitting the system faster, and leaving the system faster. ESPECIALLY, if alcohol is used. Alcohol is known to be used in herbal medicines to help the liver absorb the herb better and faster. Alcoholic tinctures are the preferred method, over teas or capsules to get the deliver the herb into the system more efficiently and faster.

 

So, when we mix our benzo with the alcohol, in addition to the fact it is in liquid form, I do believe it is absorbed more efficiently into the blood stream at a faster rate therefore having more of a medicine 'spike' affect over a slow release 'curve' affect.

 

If you could take blood concentrations of the benzo and map it on an x/y axis for time and concentration of benzo in the blood, I believe the liquids would be more spikey, and the pills would be more of a steady curve.

 

It is similar to blood sugar spikes with food. You can eat the same amount of carbs and sugar, but if you eat one helping of the sugar with protein and fiber, you will have less of a spike, and if you eat the other without the protein and fiber, the sugar will be released and have more of a spike effect

 

So you're getting the same sugar in your blood, but you can clearly see how the method in which is delivered, absorbed and circulating in your blood affects how you feel with it.

 

I believe it is the same with liquid verses solid benzos (for many people).

 

It is also similar to many folks who are on a type of drug, verses the same type of drug in an sustained release version. Some people are fine dosing a drug a couple of times a day, because their bodies can handle the spikes and crashes more effectively. But other people must be put on an extended release form of this drug, so their body can have a steadier stream of it in there system without the spikes and crashes. The same drug, the same dose, just different ways its behaves in the body.

 

When I dosed the liquid doses for those 2 days. I could immediately notice it was hitting my system faster. It was having more of a spikey and then crashy like affect on me. Now, it's totally possible my body would get used to it. (fingers crossed it will)

 

But I just wanted to throw this out there to all the people who have tried and were unable to tolerate the liquid. You're not crazy. You are justified. You know your bodies. and I applaud you for continuing your tapers with the scales and solids.

 

hugs,

Shannon

 

Shannon,

 

Yes, this makes sense.  Funny thing is, I have always used plain old water for my taper.  My previous taper was successful, and this one was going very well.  Because of my chemistry background, I am used to working with mixtures so I have no problems keeping the drug particles suspended in the water and then quickly measuring my dose before they settle.  About a week ago, maybe a bit longer, I thought why not try the alcohol.  I was having a discussion with SG about solubility and thought I would give it a try because I have my own thoughts on solubility. That reminds me that I still need to read the papers that SG suggested.  Well, the last few days I have had so many old symptoms come back and they are more intense. My biggest problems are blood pressure spikes, shakiness, and a feeling of being off balance. In fact, we were at a store on Monday evening, I was feeling a bit shaky and my blood pressure then spiked so high that I had to lay on the floor. It was an awful experience, and unexpected because I have been feeling stable. Since Monday, I have had more daily symptoms and feel that I am not able to function as well as I did just several days ago. 

 

Crushing the pill will make it absorb faster even if it is not taken with water or alcohol. If  the alcohol does play a part in the drug being absorbed even more quickly, then the effect would greater.  I am not sure this is the case though since it is such a small amount of alcohol, but I do plan on going back to water to see if the symptoms ease up.  This could all be coincidental in my case, but we'll see. This is good stuff and warrants further investigation. 

 

Thanks for bringing this up Shannon.

 

Anne

[[Mo...]]

Shannon, I too had to adjust to my liquid. I held for the days. The first week wasn't pretty.

I felt more sedated but also revved up at the Same time.

I did get used to it. My body adjusted , I guess ?

 

[[an...]]

Shannon, I too had to adjust to my liquid. I held for the days. The first week wasn't pretty.

I felt more sedated but also revved up at the Same time.

I did get used to it. My body adjusted , I guess ?

Moodle,

 

It sounds like it. To be honest, I thought that the main reason some were feeling worse after starting the liquid was because of improper dose preparation. Believe me, I work with students in the lab, and 99.9% of the time their poor experimental results are because of improper preparation of their solutions. Until SG stated that this happens to many of our members then there must be another reason besides dose preparation. I mentioned that the drug was probably absorbed faster in another post, but did not think much of it.  Again, I have always used just water and when I went from the solid to the water, I felt 100% better.  It makes sense that if the drug is absorbed much faster, then one would start feeling symptoms before their next dose. I would guess it should take about a week or two to get used to the new dosing method.  Maybe some never get used to it.  It is probably dependent on the amount of drug, how long a person has been taking the drug, and on the type of benzo. How long did it take for you to get used to the liquid?

[[Mo...]]

Shannon, I too had to adjust to my liquid. I held for the days. The first week wasn't pretty.

I felt more sedated but also revved up at the Same time.

I did get used to it. My body adjusted , I guess ?

Moodle,

 

It sounds like it. To be honest, I thought that the main reason some were feeling worse after starting the liquid was because of improper dose preparation. Believe me, I work with students in the lab, and 99.9% of the time their poor experimental results are because of improper preparation of their solutions. Until SG stated that this happens to many of our members then there must be another reason besides dose preparation. I mentioned that the drug was probably absorbed faster in another post, but did not think much of it.  Again, I have always used just water and when I went from the solid to the water, I felt 100% better.  It makes sense that if the drug is absorbed much faster, then one would start feeling symptoms before their next dose. I would guess it should take about a week or two to get used to the new dosing method.  Maybe some never get used to it.  It is probably dependent on the amount of drug, how long a person has been taking the drug, and on the type of benzo. How long did it take for you to get used to the liquid?

 

It can't be my dose preparation ,since I take a pre made liquid from a compound pharmacy.

My dose is always the same ....

And after a few weeks of going liquid, I had no problems with it anymore.

It took me about 10 days to feel better . I remember I gave it a week and then added some days of feeling better to get a breather, before cutting. I replaced 0.5 mg of my dose with liquid each time.

 

I was only in Ativan for 3-4 months and then on Valium for two months or so before starting liquid.

Never regretted it.

 

Interesting. Some people never felt a difference. I sure did.

[Guest [Ma...]]

I thought I'd follow Sharky's lead and put a nice huggy pic of me and my fiance

 

Great photo!!  Thanks for sharing.

[Guest [Ma...]]

Anne,

You say you felt 100% better on liquid versus dry. May I ask what were your symptoms while dr cutting?

Marija

[[an...]]

Anne,

You say you felt 100% better on liquid versus dry. May I ask what were your symptoms while dr cutting?

Marija

 

Hi Marija,

 

I have never tapered by dry cutting.  I was on 0.75 mg of lorazepam before starting my first water taper back in 2007. I had 0.5 mg pills.  I would have to cut the pills in half to get three doses of 0.25 mg each.  When I switched to using water, I felt much more stable--right away. When cutting the pills in half, the dosages were sometimes more or less than 0.25 mg so there were times when I would be more symptomatic. 

 

My symptoms were high blood pressure spikes, anxiety (from the spikes), off balance feeling, inner shakiness.  Once I switched to water most symptoms just disappeared. Each of my three doses contained the same amount of drug.  I did not experience the high BP spikes during the whole 1.5 year taper.  I would experience minor shakiness and a minor headache when I was due to take a dose, but those also disappeared once I got to lower dosages.

[Guest [Ma...]]

Anne,

Thank you for clarifying.

It does make me concerned why my body is having such difficulty stabilizing when all my doses are exact (compounded). I'm extremely symptomatic.

I'm not sure if liquid tapering will improve things.

Just thinking out loud ......

 

Marija

 

[[ga...]]

******* liquid sensitivity verses solid microtaper*********

 

I really do have a theory why some people, no matter who hard or often they try don't seem to do well with liquids.

 

Having tried the liquid myself for 2 days and feeling the different affects, reading the experiences on here, being a long standing multi-psych med user, supplement user etc.

 

I really believe it has something to do with the liquid being absorbed more easily, therefor hitting the system faster, and leaving the system faster. ESPECIALLY, if alcohol is used. Alcohol is known to be used in herbal medicines to help the liver absorb the herb better and faster. Alcoholic tinctures are the preferred method, over teas or capsules to get the deliver the herb into the system more efficiently and faster.

 

So, when we mix our benzo with the alcohol, in addition to the fact it is in liquid form, I do believe it is absorbed more efficiently into the blood stream at a faster rate therefore having more of a medicine 'spike' affect over a slow release 'curve' affect.

 

If you could take blood concentrations of the benzo and map it on an x/y axis for time and concentration of benzo in the blood, I believe the liquids would be more spikey, and the pills would be more of a steady curve.

 

It is similar to blood sugar spikes with food. You can eat the same amount of carbs and sugar, but if you eat one helping of the sugar with protein and fiber, you will have less of a spike, and if you eat the other without the protein and fiber, the sugar will be released and have more of a spike effect

 

So you're getting the same sugar in your blood, but you can clearly see how the method in which is delivered, absorbed and circulating in your blood affects how you feel with it.

 

I believe it is the same with liquid verses solid benzos (for many people).

 

It is also similar to many folks who are on a type of drug, verses the same type of drug in an sustained release version. Some people are fine dosing a drug a couple of times a day, because their bodies can handle the spikes and crashes more effectively. But other people must be put on an extended release form of this drug, so their body can have a steadier stream of it in there system without the spikes and crashes. The same drug, the same dose, just different ways its behaves in the body.

 

When I dosed the liquid doses for those 2 days. I could immediately notice it was hitting my system faster. It was having more of a spikey and then crashy like affect on me. Now, it's totally possible my body would get used to it. (fingers crossed it will)

 

But I just wanted to throw this out there to all the people who have tried and were unable to tolerate the liquid. You're not crazy. You are justified. You know your bodies. and I applaud you for continuing your tapers with the scales and solids.

 

hugs,

Shannon

 

Shannon,

 

Yes, this makes sense.  Funny thing is, I have always used plain old water for my taper.  My previous taper was successful, and this one was going very well.  Because of my chemistry background, I am used to working with mixtures so I have no problems keeping the drug particles suspended in the water and then quickly measuring my dose before they settle.  About a week ago, maybe a bit longer, I thought why not try the alcohol.  I was having a discussion with SG about solubility and thought I would give it a try because I have my own thoughts on solubility. That reminds me that I still need to read the papers that SG suggested.  Well, the last few days I have had so many old symptoms come back and they are more intense. My biggest problems are blood pressure spikes, shakiness, and a feeling of being off balance. In fact, we were at a store on Monday evening, I was feeling a bit shaky and my blood pressure then spiked so high that I had to lay on the floor. It was an awful experience, and unexpected because I have been feeling stable. Since Monday, I have had more daily symptoms and feel that I am not able to function as well as I did just several days ago. 

 

Crushing the pill will make it absorb faster even if it is not taken with water or alcohol. If  the alcohol does play a part in the drug being absorbed even more quickly, then the effect would greater.  I am not sure this is the case though since it is such a small amount of alcohol, but I do plan on going back to water to see if the symptoms ease up.  This could all be coincidental in my case, but we'll see. This is good stuff and warrants further investigation. 

 

Thanks for bringing this up Shannon.

 

Anne

 

Sorry to hear about your increase in symptoms! It's a very interesting theory about the alcohol. Whatever the cause, I sure hope things settle down for you soon!

[[ga...]]

I thought I'd follow Sharky's lead and put a nice huggy pic of me and my fiance

 

Great photo!!  Thanks for sharing.

 

Ditto!

[[an...]]

Anne,

Thank you for clarifying.

It does make me concerned why my body is having such difficulty stabilizing when all my doses are exact (compounded). I'm extremely symptomatic.

I'm not sure if liquid tapering will improve things.

Just thinking out loud ......

 

Marija

 

Marija,

 

I can't see how it would improve things if the doses you are currently taking are exact. The reason I switched to liquid was because the doses I took were not exact.  They probably fluctuated by quite a lot.  I am so sorry you are experiencing symptoms.  Did your symptoms start when you switched to the compounded?

 

Anne 

 

 

[[an...]]

 

Sorry to hear about your increase in symptoms! It's a very interesting theory about the alcohol. Whatever the cause, I sure hope things settle down for you soon!

 

Thank you Gardner.  I hope they settle down too.  Let's hope that things settle down for all of us soon!!

 

Anne

[Guest [Ma...]]

Anne,

Thank you for clarifying.

It does make me concerned why my body is having such difficulty stabilizing when all my doses are exact (compounded). I'm extremely symptomatic.

I'm not sure if liquid tapering will improve things.

Just thinking out loud ......

 

Marija

 

 

 

Marija,

 

I can't see how it would improve things if the doses you are currently taking are exact. The reason I switched to liquid was because the doses I took were not exact.  They probably fluctuated by quite a lot.  I am so sorry you are experiencing symptoms.  Did your symptoms start when you switched to the compounded?

 

Anne

 

Anne,

I went into this taper extremely symptomatic having just suffered a barbaric c/t off if .25 K.  After reinstating 5 months post c/t, I did not hold long enough to stabilize. I believe that to be my issue now.

I have the compounded capsules, periodically, sent to an independent lab for verification. They are within range. However, the margin of acceptable error may be too much for my sensitized CNS. I've been droping 2.5% off each new total, .0026mg, last drop. Not much.

I believe the interval, every 7 days, was too much for me.

Marija

 

 

[[Ul...]]

Man!! How do people find docs that'll write the scripts?? For years, psychiatrists wrote the millions of scripts. Then we moved two states over and somehow I found a GP who was my family doc and also wrote the clonazepam scripts. I think I was just lucky. That was a few years ago. Now, docs around here won't write clonazepam scripts...even if they know I'm trying to get off it. I've spent so many days calling docs and clinics as well as showing up in-person to talk to staff at the offices. I even tell them that a doc in my church (military doc) recommended them (which is true), but they still won't write the scripts. My wife ran around with me today and we tried lots of places. No luck. She was blown away by how uncaring people were. Our insurance network isn't very big either, and money is definitely an issue. We've also talked to multiple psychiatrists offices, and they would see me but only if I attempted to get off the drug...cold turkey or some crazy detox method over several days!! Incredibly frustrating. I thought that my new primary doc was going to write the scripts because her assistant told me she would when we were setting up my first visit. I had to wait 2 1/2 months to get in. After I got there and had a couple visits for my thyroid, I asked her for my new script. She then informed me that she wouldn't write the script. My jaw hit the floor!! She said that I misunderstood her assistant, and that she doesn't write scripts for controlled substances. Very wrong! Getting the script was much higher priority for me than my thyroid. BELIEVE me.  I've only got 2 refills left.

 

Any thoughts from anybody? How in the world am I going to get scripts? It's going to take me a couple years or more to get off this stuff!

 

Thanks!

[[ga...]]

Just a heads up that Sharkey is serving Rabbit Sauce Piquante over on the blog!

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=137928.50

 

[[an...]]

Anne,

Thank you for clarifying.

It does make me concerned why my body is having such difficulty stabilizing when all my doses are exact (compounded). I'm extremely symptomatic.

I'm not sure if liquid tapering will improve things.

Just thinking out loud ......

 

Marija

 

 

 

Marija,

 

I can't see how it would improve things if the doses you are currently taking are exact. The reason I switched to liquid was because the doses I took were not exact.  They probably fluctuated by quite a lot.  I am so sorry you are experiencing symptoms.  Did your symptoms start when you switched to the compounded?

 

Anne

 

Anne,

I went into this taper extremely symptomatic having just suffered a barbaric c/t off if .25 K.  After reinstating 5 months post c/t, I did not hold long enough to stabilize. I believe that to be my issue now.

I have the compounded capsules, periodically, sent to an independent lab for verification. They are within range. However, the margin of acceptable error may be too much for my sensitized CNS. I've been droping 2.5% off each new total, .0026mg, last drop. Not much.

I believe the interval, every 7 days, was too much for me.

Marija

 

Marija,

 

I agree that could be the problem.  I was stable when I started my first taper so I had no problems at all.  Now, for this second taper I was not fully stabilized.  Things got better after a few weeks and my symptoms were not as intense and they were certainly manageable. The last few days though have not been good.  The worse symptom for me are the high BP spikes. 

 

Maybe you could hold for a while and see if the symptoms subside.  I might do that myself and see what happens.

 

Anne

[[ga...]]

Anne,

Thank you for clarifying.

It does make me concerned why my body is having such difficulty stabilizing when all my doses are exact (compounded). I'm extremely symptomatic.

I'm not sure if liquid tapering will improve things.

Just thinking out loud ......

 

Marija

 

I think it's that the compounder's accuracy may not be as accurate as you think.  The pharmacies and doctors don't seem to quite get that people can be very sensitive!

[[bu...]]

 

 

I think it's possible that the compounder might not be as accurate as you think. 

 

Yup, definitely possible.

 

[[an...]]

Anne,

Thank you for clarifying.

It does make me concerned why my body is having such difficulty stabilizing when all my doses are exact (compounded). I'm extremely symptomatic.

I'm not sure if liquid tapering will improve things.

Just thinking out loud ......

 

Marija

 

I think it's that the compounder's accuracy may not be as accurate as you think.  The pharmacies and doctors don't seem to quite get that people can be very sensitive!

 

I agree

[[sh...]]

Man!! How do people find docs that'll write the scripts?? For years, psychiatrists wrote the millions of scripts. Then we moved two states over and somehow I found a GP who was my family doc and also wrote the clonazepam scripts. I think I was just lucky. That was a few years ago. Now, docs around here won't write clonazepam scripts...even if they know I'm trying to get off it. I've spent so many days calling docs and clinics as well as showing up in-person to talk to staff at the offices. I even tell them that a doc in my church (military doc) recommended them (which is true), but they still won't write the scripts. My wife ran around with me today and we tried lots of places. No luck. She was blown away by how uncaring people were. Our insurance network isn't very big either, and money is definitely an issue. We've also talked to multiple psychiatrists offices, and they would see me but only if I attempted to get off the drug...cold turkey or some crazy detox method over several days!! Incredibly frustrating. I thought that my new primary doc was going to write the scripts because her assistant told me she would when we were setting up my first visit. I had to wait 2 1/2 months to get in. After I got there and had a couple visits for my thyroid, I asked her for my new script. She then informed me that she wouldn't write the script. My jaw hit the floor!! She said that I misunderstood her assistant, and that she doesn't write scripts for controlled substances. Very wrong! Getting the script was much higher priority for me than my thyroid. BELIEVE me.  I've only got 2 refills left.

 

Any thoughts from anybody? How in the world am I going to get scripts? It's going to take me a couple years or more to get off this stuff!

 

Thanks!

 

I wish I had an answer for you man.  Maybe ask on here if anyone knows a doctor in your area.  Maybe on the taper or withdrawal support board?

[[ga...]]

Man!! How do people find docs that'll write the scripts?? For years, psychiatrists wrote the millions of scripts. Then we moved two states over and somehow I found a GP who was my family doc and also wrote the clonazepam scripts. I think I was just lucky. That was a few years ago. Now, docs around here won't write clonazepam scripts...even if they know I'm trying to get off it. I've spent so many days calling docs and clinics as well as showing up in-person to talk to staff at the offices. I even tell them that a doc in my church (military doc) recommended them (which is true), but they still won't write the scripts. My wife ran around with me today and we tried lots of places. No luck. She was blown away by how uncaring people were. Our insurance network isn't very big either, and money is definitely an issue. We've also talked to multiple psychiatrists offices, and they would see me but only if I attempted to get off the drug...cold turkey or some crazy detox method over several days!! Incredibly frustrating. I thought that my new primary doc was going to write the scripts because her assistant told me she would when we were setting up my first visit. I had to wait 2 1/2 months to get in. After I got there and had a couple visits for my thyroid, I asked her for my new script. She then informed me that she wouldn't write the script. My jaw hit the floor!! She said that I misunderstood her assistant, and that she doesn't write scripts for controlled substances. Very wrong! Getting the script was much higher priority for me than my thyroid. BELIEVE me.  I've only got 2 refills left.

 

Any thoughts from anybody? How in the world am I going to get scripts? It's going to take me a couple years or more to get off this stuff!

 

Thanks!

 

 

Does the county you are in or a nearby county have county psychiatric services as part of their public health services? Our county psych center takes just about any insurance.

 

I wonder if you went in to one of those places that said they do rapid detox and brought a written record of you tapering plan, including how much you have tapered so far, if maybe the psychiatrist would meet you at least half way. It would buy you some time.

 

Good luck. I sure hope you find somebody soon!

[[Sh...]]

Hi MT team,

I got the job i was interviewing for.  Start Aug 3.  It will be challenging,  but I am hoping the distraction will be beneficial.  I am having some mild head pressure, facial tension and sleep is not as good as I would like. I wake in the early hours, probably Cortisol rush. I can sometimes doze back off. Not always. Tomorrow would day 11 of liquid only at full dose using alcohol to dissolve the pills. I am a bit more symptomatic now than when on the pills, but tolerate it okay. I just wonder if I should give it a few more days before starting the taper. July 16 was my target date to start my taper. Or should I go to 1 pill in liquid and one dry pill for a while? Or start the taper and see how it goes?  I just don't see me doing the dry taper. It makes me very nervous to try and get the doses to be exact. Liquid makes me feel I have more control. Maybe I am crazy. Any thoughts?

 

Jeff...I am in KC, my doc is great about writing scripts. As long as I am tapering she will write whatever I need. She knows this process is very hard and takes time.  Are you close to the Midwest?

 

Thanks for the continued support.

 

Hang tough!

Shaani

 

 

[[...]]

Congrats Shanni! Good for you   Today I received the propylene glycol to dissolve the Xanax and mixed my two days worth of doses, so glad to continue the MT. I was wondering if anybody else has ever noticed a change in their W/D symptoms when the pharmacy has used a different manufacturer? I get generic and this last refill was a different supplier. Since then I noticed an increase in W/D symptoms, at first I thought it could be some inaccuracy on my doses, (used very small amount of liquids to break down xanax) but now I'm thinking maybe it was also because of the change. Prolly both. Anyway now I can follow what has been suggested to me: use a known solvent to dissolve, add to 398mls of water and reduce by 1% a day. Thank-you all for being here, you are my rock for recovery