Tapering in Tolerance Withdrawal

[[No...]]

I don't have a plan for coping with the s/x - I just get really teary.    (what was your plan?) 

 

Deep, slow breathing from my belly helped a lot. The more I did it, the easier it got and the quicker it worked. Yoga, playing the guitar, Epsom salt baths, stretching, hot tea, movies, computer games, comedy, reading Success Stories, posting with like-minded BBs, walks … anything that gets me outside myself helps.

 

Don’t get me wrong. I’ve been teary, too. Sometimes it was all I could manage. But generally, the less attention I give to symptoms, the less power they have.

 

 

 I'm only having s/x individually because I am afraid to go too fast in the taper.        I think at my age, I feel I've been thru some really bad experiences and I thought it was plain sailing for a few years and now this is way worse than anything I've had to deal with in my life.   (and I've had a couple of really crap deals to cope with!!!)   I don't feel strong enough to cope with too much pain so won't be able to do what you did.  I could never cut once a week, it would be way too fast for me.   I'm a small build and need to be able to eat.   

 

I’m not suggesting you go faster at all, wiser. I think we mostly have to find our own way in this. I don’t think anyone should ever feel pressured to follow someone else’s taper. I just wanted you to know that if you’re paradoxical/in tolerance withdrawal and need to get off benzos as quickly (but safely) as possible, that it’s doable, even if you never find your way to stability in the meantime.

 

 

Can you tell me why you weren't like the BB's who c/o'd to valium and got stable and then tapered slowly?   Why did you think you were paradoxical?     Interested to hear how it was for you?    I did read quite a bit of your comments recently on the cut and hold method of tapering.        I know of others who have done similar to this and succeeded but I don't believe I'm made of such strong stuff!!!    :-( 

 

many thanks... 

 

I became paradoxical probably around halfway through my taper. It wasn’t all that dramatic, really. I’d break into a sweat and my heart would race about an hour after I took a dose--the exact opposite of the way it’s supposed to work. It didn’t seem to bode well for the future, though, and I didn’t want to give it time to get worse. My instincts were very, very strong in the direction of getting off.

 

As far as not being like the BBs who crossed over, got stable, and tapered slowly … well, I did cross over and I did taper slowly. (I followed the Ashton method, which is plenty slow ... just not slow enough for some.) I just never got particularly stable. People who are paradoxical and/or in tolerance withdrawal may have a harder time getting stable. I had no choice but to accept it.

 

Really, though, I haven’t seen that many stable people on BB. Have you? It seems to me that instability is the nature of benzo withdrawal. I find it easier to handle a bumpy ride if I wasn't expecting a smooth one in the first place, I guess.

 

I hope you get a break here soon, wiser.

 

 

[[dr...]]

wiser, im 61 also. just beginning valium.. Not sure it is right for me... depressed and spacey...Im not sure how i will cut also. I think is was easier for me on the ativan to cut. I was shakier, but now Im shakey and tired? I just don't know ..So mixed up..

 

The tiredness will pass.

[[wi...]]

:::::I became paradoxical probably around halfway through my taper. It wasn’t all that dramatic, really. I’d break into a sweat and my heart would race about an hour after I took a dose--the exact opposite of the way it’s supposed to work. It didn’t seem to bode well for the future, though, and I didn’t want to give it time to get worse. My instincts were very, very strong in the direction of getting off.

 

I know a few who seem to be doing it reasonably comfortably at a slow pace.    But I am like you and tend to have a bad reaction to the valium.  It has never been an easy drug for me to take.      I think my stomach is starting to reject it as well..      It's causing me to get acid reflux.    So you pretty much felt every cut but just kept going?  Did I ask you this already?  how old are you?   

 

How long did it take you to get off?

[[ov...]]

Hi just found this thread and I find my friend Wiser is here.  NoKlon I too was in tolerance with K and tapered way too fast, didn't know about Ashton.  Now using Ashton to get off temazepam with V.  I have made 3 cuts.  Don't feel better, but I am under a lot of stress in my personal life.  I have many s/x, parasthesia, pricking skin, rash, acid reflux, tinnitus, hypercussis, blurry vision, 15 lb weight loss, and on and on.  The depression and anhedonia are the pits.  I too have that feeling that I will never get better unless I get off this crap.  I have to accept that these s/xs may be here for a while.  Hate it that I can barely leave my house, but keep on trudging.

 

I really like this thread.  And Wiser you are much stronger than you think girlfriend!

 

xo OC  :smitten:

[[No...]]

I know a few who seem to be doing it reasonably comfortably at a slow pace.    But I am like you and tend to have a bad reaction to the valium.  It has never been an easy drug for me to take.      I think my stomach is starting to reject it as well..      It's causing me to get acid reflux.    So you pretty much felt every cut but just kept going?  Did I ask you this already?  how old are you?   

 

How long did it take you to get off?

 

It took me 11 months to get off the equivalent of 40mg of Valium.

 

I started at 2mg Klonopin, cut 1mg K the first month (OW!), then switched to 20mg Valium. I tapered the Valium @ 1.25mg a week until I got to around 12. From there, I cut .5mg a week and jumped at .5mg Valium.

 

Yes, I kept cutting, no matter the symptoms. At the end, cutting usually made me feel better, so I was happy to cut.

 

I'm in my mid-50s. I know that age is supposed to be a detriment to getting off benzos, but has anyone else noticed that the 50+ people on BB seem to do better than the younger ones? Am I right about that? It just seems so to me....

 

 

Hi just found this thread and I find my friend Wiser is here.  NoKlon I too was in tolerance with K and tapered way too fast, didn't know about Ashton.  Now using Ashton to get off temazepam with V.  I have made 3 cuts.  Don't feel better, but I am under a lot of stress in my personal life.  I have many s/x, parasthesia, pricking skin, rash, acid reflux, tinnitus, hypercussis, blurry vision, 15 lb weight loss, and on and on.  The depression and anhedonia are the pits.  I too have that feeling that I will never get better unless I get off this crap.  I have to accept that these s/xs may be here for a while.  Hate it that I can barely leave my house, but keep on trudging.

 

I really like this thread.  And Wiser you are much stronger than you think girlfriend!

 

xo OC  :smitten:

 

Hi, OC. Sorry to hear you were in tolerance on Klonopin and got off to a rocky start, too. Who knew a couple of measly milligrams of that stuff weren't so measly, right? 

 

I had some of the same symptoms you're experiencing. Almost all of them were completely gone by a few weeks post-jump. My acute phase was *nothing* compared with tapering. Seriously, nothing. Maybe that's because I was so deep into tolerance withdrawal when I started. I don't know. If so, that's one advantage of it, for sure, though!

 

[[ro...]]

Noklono, did you taper , keep dry cuts from the valium? Im just curious, my brain...I may have asked this before...Sorry. thank you rose

[[No...]]

Noklono, did you taper , keep dry cuts from the valium? Im just curious, my brain...I may have asked this before...Sorry. thank you rose

 

Yes. Dry cuts all the way down.

 

[[ro...]]

Noklono, thanks . did you have to use a scale or anything? Im afraid of all that micro stuff...many thanks   rose

[[No...]]

No, I never used a scale, rosegal. I tapered using one pill at a time, so the .5mg I used from one day to the next was from the same pill. I figured it all worked out, given Valium's long half-life.

 

I read that it's impossible to be exact with tiny amounts, anyway, because so much of the tablet is "filler." So we never know how much filler and how much medication we're getting, really. That's one of the reasons I always made sure to taper using the same tablet.

 

I don't know if that's true, though. I just did it to be on the safe side.

[[ro...]]

Appreciate your reply noKlono, it is so gratifying to me on this forum, the response and help from everyone. Im older, 61. I think it makes a difference in my thinking about quality of life and wanting to do so much with my son and grandson. It keeps me hanging on, by a thread sometimes....I wish I could go back to work or take a class, just not in that place yet. Maybe as I taper down, I will heal more.. thanks for much help this morning..   rose

[[wi...]]

Noklonono,  Can you tell me what your s/x were during your relentless taper?  Did you have social fear and fear of leaving the house?  Could you drive and go out without too much difficulty?    What were your most difficult physical s.x?  Your cuts seem so large and yet you cut regardless?  I think you must have a high pain thresh hold.  You re female yes?

 

 

[[ov...]]

NoKlon:  Thanks for reminding me about the fillers.  I noticed my 5mg Vs and my 2 mg Vs are by 2 different mfr.  I would suppose that could also present a problem.  My biggest fear in tapering is that I will lose my ability to think.  So far I can still work, some what, although if I am not working at mundane work, and something new pops up I have panic attacks.

 

I have been breaking out into a sweat every day around 4 pm.  Strangest thing.  I don't remember doing that before V.  Yep, I want off this crap.  Body and brain will not heal until I am. 

 

What do you do about sleep or is that not a problem?

xo OC  :smitten:

[[ov...]]

Oh Yeah, I am 66, so I have most of you beat.  I have been told on another thread that age makes it more difficult.  Oh yeah!  Another drawback. 

 

xo OC  :smitten:

[[No...]]

Noklonono,  Can you tell me what your s/x were during your relentless taper?  Did you have social fear and fear of leaving the house?  Could you drive and go out without too much difficulty?    What were your most difficult physical s.x?  Your cuts seem so large and yet you cut regardless?  I think you must have a high pain thresh hold.  You re female yes?

 

Hi, wiser. 

 

A lot of the symptoms during my taper were less intense versions of the extreme symptoms I experienced when I cut too much at the beginning. Too many to list, really, but among them: hypersensitivity to stimuli (sound was the worst), joint/muscle pain, vertigo, insomnia, perceptual distortions, paranoia, blurry vision/dry eyes, tinnitus, sweats/chills, heart pounding/racing, hallucinations ... and yeah, I was a complete social weirdo who couldn't drive. I was a fun gal, lemme tell ya. 

 

My most difficult physical symptom ... oh, man ... that's hard to say. Hyperacusis (hypersensitivity to sound) seemed like the most debilitating and persistent. That one just never let up. It's what made driving seem so impossible. I kept thinking I'd probably drive into a tree (or worse) if I heard so much as a horn honk. (You know how newborns jump with their entire bodies when they hear a noise? I was like that. Only not cute.) I probably wouldn't have driven, anyway, though. My balance was wonky, I lost my already-lacking depth perception. I was a mess.

 

And I know my cuts seem large compared with some, but really, they were on the slow side of Ashton, so I knew I wasn't being reckless or anything. I needed to be off benzos about 5 years before I started getting off benzos. They were making me really sick.

 

Did you say you've recently just made your first cut, wiser? I'm sorry--I'm not clear on your status.

 

NoKlon:  Thanks for reminding me about the fillers.  I noticed my 5mg Vs and my 2 mg Vs are by 2 different mfr.  I would suppose that could also present a problem.  My biggest fear in tapering is that I will lose my ability to think.  So far I can still work, some what, although if I am not working at mundane work, and something new pops up I have panic attacks.

 

I have been breaking out into a sweat every day around 4 pm.  Strangest thing.  I don't remember doing that before V.  Yep, I want off this crap.  Body and brain will not heal until I am. 

 

What do you do about sleep or is that not a problem?

xo OC  :smitten:

 

Oh, don't go by me on the filler thing. It's just something I read that sounded plausible, but I wasn't worried enough about it to do any real research. For all I know, the active ingredients are evenly distributed. Do you have a good pharmacist? If so, maybe ask him/her about that and about the changes in brands. I actually found my pharmacist to be a lot more helpful than my prescribing doctor. (Okay, I also found the houseplant in my living room to be more helpful than my prescribing doctor, so that doesn't mean much....)

 

I take Unisom most nights to get to sleep. I'm a lifelong insomniac, and I was expecting a lot of trouble in that area. Amazingly, I've had only a handful of truly sleepless nights. I still need help getting there, though. Most nights, anyway. It's gradually getting better, and I'm dreaming again, which is wonderful.

 

The last several weeks of my taper, I got *great* sleep. Like, the greatest sleep I've had since I was a child. I was hoping that would stick around.

 

I take it you're having sleep troubles? I think sleep is paramount in this, personally. Are you averse to taking an anti-histamine, or did you try one and it didn't work?

 

[[wi...]]

OMG you are so gutzy!!!!!!!  How old are you?  Male or female?  I think female yes?  Were you living with someone?      I can't believe what you put up with to get off...    How long after you got off did you start to feel ok - was there several months to follow with lots of w/d s./x?  You have probably told me that already but benzo brain can't recall it.     

 

Very very interested to hear about your situation.  So inspiring

 

 

 

[[ro...]]

NoKlono, I have those same symptoms..now tapering and c/o. I have a new car and hate to go out. I feel paranoid, more social problems out in public, insomnia, I hate al of it. Feels lonely too. except here.

overcomer. I am 61, don't know if the valium is agreeing with me either. Want myself back so bad....

wisenow, mornings are the worst..

[[No...]]

OMG you are so gutzy!!!!!!!  How old are you?  Male or female?  I think female yes?  Were you living with someone?      I can't believe what you put up with to get off...    How long after you got off did you start to feel ok - was there several months to follow with lots of w/d s./x?  You have probably told me that already but benzo brain can't recall it.     

 

Very very interested to hear about your situation.  So inspiring

 

The way I tapered in the beginning, when I cut half my dose too fast, wasn't because I was brave, wiser. It was because I was ignorant. I had no reason to expect problems, though. I'd done some very superficial research that, as I recall, suggested 25% cuts per week, and claimed any issues from that would be short-lived. So, I carried on. When things got worse, I did more research, and that's when I found the Ashton manual and BB. That's also when I realized I'd been in tolerance withdrawal for years.

 

After that, I simply followed the Ashton taper, basically. When I got to 12.5mg, I followed the slow side of the Ashton taper. I also subscribed to Ashton's recommendations to continue moving forward, not to up-dose, not to taper to tiny doses, etc., and I took a lot of comfort in her suggestion about attitude toward it all ... sort of ... okay, this is benzo withdrawal, and it sucks, but many people have done it, and I'll do it, too ... that kind of thing. I had symptoms despite the attitude, but holding that attitude has been really important for me.

 

And yes, I'm a female. I'm in my mid-fifties, and I live with my husband and son.

 

 

 

NoKlono, I have those same symptoms..now tapering and c/o. I have a new car and hate to go out. I feel paranoid, more social problems out in public, insomnia, I hate al of it. Feels lonely too. except here.

overcomer. I am 61, don't know if the valium is agreeing with me either. Want myself back so bad....

wisenow, mornings are the worst..

 

I hear you, rosegal. I've never felt as lonely in my life as I have in withdrawal. I feel alone even when I'm surrounded by people. I just can't imagine anyone understanding benzo withdrawal unless they've been through it themselves. It's such an isolating experience, but I suppose there are any number of experiences like that....

 

What a shame about the new car. Gah! (I'd probably go out and sit in it, anyway, just to savor the new-car smell. I love that smell.)

 

[[ro...]]

NoKlono.. yes the attitude thing is important. These symptoms are overwhelming to me, I blame it on the benzos, still feel awful. Keep going..

[[Ki...]]

Attitude is everything. I'm working really hard at it.....I feel like it's having a positive effect. I'm cracking jokes now, I'm saying affirmation statements and just generally saying "oh, well aren't I REALLY in withdrawal today" instead of "omg I can't do this it's so awful somebody help me". I'm also slowing down a little on my drops, but I'm sure I'll get bored and speed it up again. I like to keep things interesting 

 

Also, if you have some spare time, go read NoKlono's blog. It's fantastic.

[[ro...]]

NoKlono, may I ask please, did you simlpy cut .5 from a pill as you went down in taper? It wasn't compounding? When I read Ashton. I understood that you just cut every 7-10 days or so. She also showed a chart to jump at either 1mg or .5? I think it was on the taper from 3 mg ativan..I have 2mg pills, so with help from buddies, I was just going to do smaller cuts and hold as I went.. Fingers crossed....not there yet though..

[[No...]]

Attitude is everything. I'm working really hard at it.....I feel like it's having a positive effect. I'm cracking jokes now, I'm saying affirmation statements and just generally saying "oh, well aren't I REALLY in withdrawal today" instead of "omg I can't do this it's so awful somebody help me". I'm also slowing down a little on my drops, but I'm sure I'll get bored and speed it up again. I like to keep things interesting 

 

Also, if you have some spare time, go read NoKlono's blog. It's fantastic.

 

You bring up a good point, I think, Kiddo, which is the language we use when we talk to ourselves about this. I have to actively resist the temptation to use catastrophic language when I'm thinking about it in a serious way. As much as I might feel like lying on my couch, moaning, "Woe is me!" ... it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The very last thing I need is more woe. I'd rather be a badass warrior, even if I know, in my heart, that I'm completely faking it.

 

I like your example, "Well, aren't I REALLY in withdrawal today?" ... lol. Really, making fun of it diffuses it faster than anything else for me.

 

 

NoKlono, may I ask please, did you simlpy cut .5 from a pill as you went down in taper? It wasn't compounding? When I read Ashton. I understood that you just cut every 7-10 days or so. She also showed a chart to jump at either 1mg or .5? I think it was on the taper from 3 mg ativan..I have 2mg pills, so with help from buddies, I was just going to do smaller cuts and hold as I went.. Fingers crossed....not there yet though..

 

No, I didn't do compounding or weighing or liquid or anything like that. I just broke my 2mg tablets into quarters and eyeballed it.

 

I think Ashton recommends 0.5 - 1.0 mg cuts every 1 to 2 weeks, holding longer if necessary, then jumping at 1.0mg or, at the smallest, 0.5mg, which is what I did. After all I'd read here about people planning to taper down to dust, I did get a bit nervous about jumping from that amount, but nothing bad happened. My vertigo increased for a while. The only new symptom I got was that weird "boaty" sensation, but that didn't stay around long. The whole thing was anti-climactic, actually. I held my breath and waited for the other shoe to drop. In my case, it never did.

 

That said, if it makes someone feel better to taper to dust, I think it's fine. It's just that, for me, doing that would have made me prone to obsess even more over my taper, and that would have done me more harm than good. The psychological boost I got from freedom was invaluable for my momentum, too. And I really don't think that small amount of Valium was having any effect on me.

 

I'd say maybe try not to plan out your entire taper now. Things can change so quickly, and you never know, you might be like me. Cutting eventually made me feel better, as did getting into the lower doses. 

 

Maybe just take one cut at a time ... or even one day at a time ... sometimes, that's an hour or a minute at a time....

[[ro...]]

NoKlono, thanks, that what she wrote...1.0 -.5 cuts. Not sure yet, depends on much. I have to get more "badass" attitude.   You have been a great help today, thanks again...rose

[[ov...]]

Quote from No Klono:  I take it you're having sleep troubles? I think sleep is paramount in this, personally. Are you averse to taking an anti-histamine, or did you try one and it didn't work?

 

Hi Klono:  No I am not adverse to anti-histimines, I have a dry mouth, and they make it even worse.  They tend to dry out the whole body (all mucous membranes) so would not be good for me at this point, as I am so dehydrated.

 

I began the temazepam for insomnia, I had tapered down to 1mg K from 2 mg K daily and insomnia began. Then the insomnia came in full force.  I was actually in K tolerance w/d for years, hence insomnia, for 3 years prior to K w/d.  I am sleeping aprx 6-7 hours of interrupted sleep each night.  I have tapered down to 13mg V from 15 mg V.

 

Benzo w/d is not for SISSIES.  Being a senior is not for SISSIES.  I have so many s/xs from my K  and tramadol w/ds, my life is one big pain.  I was hoping the c/o to V would help, but not so far.  I need to get your attitude Klono.  This is a great thread.

 

xo OC  :smitten:

[[ro...]]

The things like benadryl don't work for me,or Advil pm.    3.5 mgs of remeron help some nights.. I have 15mg tabs I cut.  the 7.5 doesn't help much, seems smaller is better..even the trazadone 50mgs-100mg, no help. It's the pits. Warm baths, melatonin, etc....just not getting it either...

[[...]]

Hi Everyone

 

This is my 2nd time round with a taper. I started at 6mg Valium 3 weeks ago.  I think I may have hit tolerance already too as I have done this whole thing before.

 

Like NoKlono said I have now spent days researching here trying to find the least painful way off.  Ashton style regardless of symptoms or microtaper for a long time.

 

The jury is still out!!!!

 

I have 2 children and a husband the travels internationally every week for 2-3 days so I need to be reasonably functional.

 

Hoping for a good day for us all and nice to meet you all.

 

Maa x