Are You Glad or Sorry You Updosed or Held?

[[ch...]]

China,

 

Great for you, ya know. You rolled the dice and won. Your symptoms were manageable and you got off, that is the goal. To say that protracted, are highly protracted is a myth is absolutely the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Apparently the ridiculous amounts of C/Ters and fast taperers that are spending months and year with the W/D sxs are all in an evil plot to lie to us. Please...

 

The only valid point you have is we make sure and tell people that if they have not tried a faster type of taper..than go ahead! However, if it is not working, you need to adjust.

 

So, you worked through your taper which was pure hell right? You white knuckled for months. You felt like sheet. It is not a logical thought process to say you would rather spend months in agony..than be on a medicine for longer, but feel pretty dang good. It is quite non-sensical.

 

Chinadoll, your experience is not as under-represented as you think. Most doctors prescribe a faster taper right off the bat and for most it helps. This site is for those where those situations and your situation is not the case. For a new person,yes. For a person with symptoms that are unbearable..no.

 

Personally, I think Dr. Ashtons program should be how it is done to start. (minus a few short terms users, i beleive it is valid to at least try a faster taper and adjust if needed) Most people (I can't recall but I think all but 8 percent of her patients got off with her protocol??) were fine with her program, which is why she devised it. Most of those 8% types are here. They are here because the doctors program of fast did not work...and in many cases, even the Ashton protocol was too quick.

 

The protracted myth you so call it. I was in hell for the first few months before I figured this medicine thing out...and i wasnt even off the medicine. It debilitated me so much I couldn't sleep, but was soo tired I felt like i was going to die. My brain was so jumbled and body so wracked that all I could do was walk miles and miles. I couldn't sit down to even watch TV most of the time. I did have windows...and i had intermittent doses that brought me out of it. My brain could not handle it. Had I tried to be a dummy and white knuckle it, I would have been hosed. I also happen to be in the military where my job was on the line. It was almost certain I wouldn't be able to do my current job (a very thorough physicall yearly and even feeling a little sick would prevent me from participating in my job) but I was on the path of medical separation. I figured out the problem through critical thinking, analyzation, propblem solving, a few great doctors who let me fly it, and adjustments. I'm great right now. Had I went faster...no way.

 

Yes, daily micro-tapering is not needed for everyone and absolutely should not be the first course of action. Everyone should try the faster ways first, but adjust as things no longer work.

 

FACT: micro-tapering has allowed people to get off this medicine who otherwise would not have been able to without possibly ridiculous amounts of suffering that would destroy themselves, their careers, and their families. In turn, they are doing so with minimal discomfort.

 

What have a found to be truthful in my research concerning benzos? There is indeed a 90% (arbitrary number denoting a majority) solution, one size fits most way of doing this.

 

What is it? It is an if/then solution! My techniques are all the prior techniques rolled up in one, plus the final piece.

 

If short term user, then try fast taper

If that doesn't work, thentry Ashton taper

If that doesn't work then ask if a switch of benzos will work

If that doesn't work (and you tried them) then stay where you are

If that doesn't work then try a smaller cut and hold method

If that doesn't work, then try the C/MST technique

 

It is a multi-phased approach that guides you down the longer paths ONLY if you need it. My suggestions are exactly that. As you see, my technique is the last on the list. It is for the folks who can't do it effectively the other way.

 

The problem is people keep seeing all these techniques as you must do one or the other. I YELLED 100 times trying to tell people that is not the case. My technique incorperates them all into a logic chain in relation to how well you respond.

 

The problem is people have failed to understand this and they jump phases and end up in bad spots. Personally, the other phase I can see as acceptable to not to do is the C/T or super fast taper method. I see no problem for people who want to start their taper with the Ashton protocol. Would I reccomend my daily micro-taper technique to start? lololol. No. I knew what I was going to end up having to do at 3MGs and didn't start the micro-taper until 1.6MGs. I rode it until it didn't work. It is important to do that for many reasons...one being you will know where you brain really is in comparison to that equilibrium I talked abouit earlier.

 

This message wasn't just for you china, although I started off addressing you, but please take from it those portions that address your issues.

[[be...]]

Hi:

 

I only held only once for two weeks when all of a sudden I woke up one day with a myriad of symptoms. Before, I was symptoms free. After 5 days of holding, my symptoms just disappeared like magic. They never came back. Betsy

[[mr...]]

Where did you get 2 out of 50? 

First of all, I do not believe Dr. Ashton is crazy and saying that is inappropriate.

 

I did a rapid taper and am very glad I sucked it up and pushed on.  I was in wicked tolerance to begin with and I only really started to heal after I got the poison out of my system. 

 

When I first started reading this forum 1 1/2 years ago I almost believed I was in for years of drawn out w/d hell due to my rapid taper.  Turns out it was a big fat lie.

 

And after reading this forum all these months I am of the opinion that those who choose to draw this out for years are often as addicted to their tapers as they are the benzos.  And as for scaring people with the "protracted withdrawal" bogie man, well, that is a benzo myth I have personally busted.

 

Be Well

China

China,

Most people do not want have to go to the ER and be bed ridden the first few months off of a rapid taper.

My mom did a rapid taper off lorazepam the first time and was doing very well 5 months off, but she was down to 89 lbs, low albumen due to malnutrition and she was bed ridden the first 3 months.

Unfortunately, she reinstated prn thinking it would be okay after 6 months off and it did damage to her respiratory center in the brain.

Her only choice was to micro taper off.

Some people going thru this have to work and a slow micro taper is one way that has proven to work.

Some people have been on them many years and others may have kindling going on or multiple drugs to taper off.

 

For those who can white knuckle thru it and can afford to be bedridden, hey go for the ashton taper.

However, looking at Dr Ashton's outcomes of 50 patients, only 2 were recovered to excellent <12 months off.

 

These are all just choices for people and not one protocol for everything, so it is not appropriate to knock other methods because they all have a purpose.

 

Where did you get 2 out of 50? 

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but the following cites an "excellent" outcome with the Ashton protocol in 24 of 50, with a "good" outcome for a further 22% (11):

 

"The outcome was graded as excellent in 24 patients (48%), good in 11 (22%), moderate in 8 (16%), poor in 3 (6%) and failed in 4 (8%). Thus, 70% of this group did excellently or well after withdrawal and a further 16% were moderately improved. All these patients claimed to feel better after withdrawal than when they were taking benzodiazepines and were glad they had withdrawn."

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashbzoc.htm

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashbzoc.htm

 

 

< 12 months off only 2 were excellent.

[[mr...]]

I want to post an experience of a friend that doesn't want to be known.

He has no prior health issues, but after 1.5 dose of celexa (after ct), his bp went to 210/100 and he now, has a kidney cyst.

He has always ate good foods and stayed away from sugars and fast or commercial foods.

He was a body builder for years and works in law enforcement.

 

He was only on 3 weeks of klonopin and ct'd.

He spent 9 visits to the ER and was fortunate to not have to work for the first 3 months.

He lost 25 lbs in 2 months.

He turned a corner on the 5th month, but still had some 40% days.

He is in his 6th month off and still has daily sx's and has not had a single sx free day since ct.

[[ch...]]

Well sheeeet Mrt. All the docs agree that A/D's can help anxiety..but almost ALWAYS worsen the symptoms for the first few weeks before the magical downsteam effects work.

 

So it sounds like he was in W/D....took a single dose of celexa that tmeporarily increased his symptoms due to the excitatory reasponse of the CNS system...said screw that...and is def in protracted withdraw (which I know is the whole purpose of you telling this story. I'm just backing it up with a little extra tid-bit of knowledge to elaborate of the said effects of Celexa and this situation)

 

That sucks

[[mr...]]

Well sheeeet Mrt. All the docs agree that A/D's can help anxiety..but almost ALWAYS worsen the symptoms for the first few weeks before the magical downsteam effects work.

 

So it sounds like he was in W/D....took a single dose of celexa that tmeporarily increased his symptoms due to the excitatory reasponse of the CNS system...said screw that...and is def in protracted withdraw (which I know is the whole purpose of you telling this story. I'm just backing it up with a little extra tid-bit of knowledge to elaborate of the said effects of Celexa and this situation)

 

That sucks

AD's were found in a study to be less effective on depression than placebo.

This friend almost reinstated because the sx's were so bad 2 months off, but gave him the pros and cons and he decided to white knuckle it thru.

I am hoping he has some 100% days in his 6th month off.

[[Ki...]]

Mrtmeo - I hope your friend has better days too. Everyone is so different, but it goes to show that cold turkey is just not the way to go. Even a rapid taper has to be better than a cold turkey.

 

So he c/t after 3 weeks use and was still acute after 3 months? Then tried Celexa to help with the c/t symptoms?  Is that correct?

 

FYI - I updosed today. I think it was necessary. I've been holding for 3 weeks with no change. I didn't go back to my last dose, I went in between that and where I am now. So current dose is now 1.13mg

Thoughts?

[[Ch...]]

First of all, I do not believe Dr. Ashton is crazy and saying that is inappropriate.

 

I did a rapid taper and am very glad I sucked it up and pushed on.  I was in wicked tolerance to begin with and I only really started to heal after I got the poison out of my system. 

 

When I first started reading this forum 1 1/2 years ago I almost believed I was in for years of drawn out w/d hell due to my rapid taper.  Turns out it was a big fat lie.

 

And after reading this forum all these months I am of the opinion that those who choose to draw this out for years are often as addicted to their tapers as they are the benzos.  And as for scaring people with the "protracted withdrawal" bogie man, well, that is a benzo myth I have personally busted.

 

Be Well

China

 

To all you self proclaimed "benzo w/d experts"  I am not going to defend my right to state what I stated in my original post.  You can twist my words and statistics to fit your agenda if you want to. 

 

Post away with your mega posts full of half truths, innuendos and lies if it make you feel smarter. 

 

And sorry chrenraf, I have more the one valid point.  And mrtmeo, is that your signature or your mother's??  Neither of you know me or know what I have gone through so minimize my withdrawal experience if you want to, but I have more experience then both of you put together.

[[mr...]]

China,

I have not minimized anything you said except that you said people were addicted to their tapers indicating that slow tapering is nothing more than an addict prolonging their addiction and this is absolutely NOT TRUE.

 

There are always valid reasons for all of the differring taper methods and it is up to the individual to decide for themselves which one will work for them.

I believe everyone should be informed in their choices of withdrawal.

 

I am very happy for you that you were able to have a rapid taper with so much success and am glad that you are willing to post your success because, yes, those types of success stories are so few and are needed here.

 

My signature is of my mom's benzo wd process.

 

[[be...]]

Interesting question.

 

I had been doing 10% cut every two weeks like clockwork. Then my last cut I held for 21 days and felt a lot better and though, "oh great I will hold for 3 weeks instead".

 

Well that did not work the second time around. By day 14 of my cut I began feeling w/d again. I was going through inter-dose tolerance w/d during my last taper by day 14. So I decided if my body was going to be going through tolerance w/d I may as well make the cut and deal with it.  I made the 10% cut today down to 1.25 v.

 

I am going to feel bad either way so I would rather feel bad on less v. - but that is just me.

 

 

[Guest [in...]]

that's what im having trouble with is deciding how long to hold. since this is my first cut, ive no idea

[[be...]]

Well.......My doc had me do 10% every two week with the condition that that was just a general time frame. Did not want me to go any FASTER but could hold longer. There are so many variables that determine how we react from one cut to the next.

 

I do not think there is a perfect answer - you just need to get a sense of what you/your body can handle. Even when you make small cuts/longer holds you will still experience w/d - IMO, no way around it.

 

I have gotten to the point where I will hold for at least 2 weeks and see how I feel. Sometimes the first 5 days of a cut is tough and then it gets better, sometimes it does not get better and sometimes it gets better and then worse. If after 14 days I get a resurgence of w/d symptoms I chalk it up to tolerance and just make the cut.

 

Hope you can find the schedule that is best suited for you.

[[et...]]

I have read this thread and although I think Steve will get a lot of good answers here I believe this will turn into one big agrument about who's right and who's wrong. If your taper works for you then YOU are the one who is ultimately right...right? For me, going slow is not a choice its something I have decided to do because my lifestyle prevents me from going fast and grinding through symptoms. I have a full time job,and a business and other life resposibilities that simply prevent a fast taper with suffering. I have been able to do 100% of all the things I did pre taper. Some have been more challenging but still doable. I've also been able to lead a very active personal life and travel etc. I have onetime updosed a few times to get my blood serum levels back in check and did not affect my taper and I've held too. This is a very individual thing but there is no way can someone in acute withdrawal follow this guy around every day so I'm content with mt taper. I've hit a few bumps on the way down but learned from them and moved on.  I have been on 2 Benzos for well over 20 years. Who am I to ever think I cn undue that brain f in a few short years. It took time to screw my brain up, it will take time for it to heal.

Good luck all in whatever you choose to do.

I'm going to book my next trip with my wife and go ziplining now. I'd much rather remember that than the acute w/d symptoms.

Cheers

etown

[[Sm...]]

what E-Town said...

 

No one way fits all

 

It is great you got through a rapid taper and are healed 12 months later China. It is fabulous even.

 

I can't make that choice. That is ok. I've come to terms with that. If I get too fast, I get too sick to function. I want  my daughter to have a Mum. When I'm too sick she can't. And yes, I am too scared of the prospect of protracted w/d. That is my call. Granted I'm being cautious, and I can't guarantee I'll be protracted, but that cautious on that is what I'm comfortable with.

 

This are a huge range of variables in this situation: type of benzo, genetics, previous conditions,

 

I was probably a little too strident in being opposed to glutamate excitoxicity. I do recognise some people are very good at healing from this. It is important to equally recognise that some people aren't very good at healing for that.

 

In sum.. You do what works for you

[[Sm...]]

Also it is interesting for Julea to share her thought on tapering from a fast acting benzo vs long acting benzo.

 

I think she is probably right that it is easier to find yourself waayy off your heal rate when there is a lag time with cuts aka long acting benzo. And equally tapering the last tiny amounts ends up being more necessary given you have to not only taper off your dose but also all the built up metabolites (on average 4x your dose with V)

 

[[Ch...]]

As usual when an opinion like mine is offered on this forum the same argument always gets raised which totally does not address my original statements which were again for those who only read what they want to read...... and like to skew facts to fit their agenda.  Its no wonder a lot of folks just heal and leave or go on their own with their withdrawal. 

 

1.  Calling Dr. Ashton crazy was inappropriate.

 

2. Quick tapers do not sentence you to years of living withdrawal hell.

 

I was in deep tolerance and already sick for many months prior to tapering.  For people like me and short term users I feel and I said "I feel" and long drawn out taper is contraindicated. 

 

My apologies to the OP because I am sure they were interested in everyones opinion to their question so they could make an informed decision. 

[[Sm...]]

I'm honestly not sure what you mean when you say we are 'twisting your words' China.

If you'd like me to address the two points you believe were skimmed over and skewed I can, but I'm not sure I can offer much...

 

1. We/I don't speak for Oscar. If Oscar wants to call Dr Ashton crazy that is his prerogative. So I'm afraid I, nor anyone else but Oscar, can address that particular concern for you. Even still I'm not sure what it is you are after:Did you want an apology or something? An admission that it was inappropriate? It was an opinion on a public figure that didn't personally insult anyone here. In any case, like I said, I can't really deal with that one.

 

2. I, and I think everyone else, did agree that quick tapers do not necessarily sentence you to years of living in w/d. No you'll find my use of the word 'necessarily' here irritating but allow me to clarify. I, for one, think protracted w/d is something that happens in the vast minority of benzo tapers. But it does happen. On a personal note I don't even want to have 12 months of more acute benzo w/d - not technically protracted - but that is my personal call.

 

I hope that goes part way to satisfying you. I'm afraid I can't speak for everyone though.

 

Now.. back to the original topic of whether people have personally updoses helpful or otherwise...

[[Ch...]]

That is so self serving I am not even going to reply.  I am totally done with this thread.  I am not asking for an apology, just the right to express my experience without having to defend it to self proclaimed benzo Messiahs.

 

Have fun kids!

[[ch...]]

China,

 

I was addressing your original statement.

 

"And as for scaring people with the "protracted withdrawal" bogie man, well, that is a benzo myth I have personally busted." -It was a wrong and asinine thing to say.

 

If you would have just said you didn't updose and were happy because you pushed through the withdrawal that was what the OP was looking for. You added all kinds of crap about all kinds of un-related topics, in which I covered. Don't try to act like the almighty victim in this thread when you come spewing crap.

 

Let me post again what you said, "And as for scaring people with the "protracted withdrawal" bogie man, well, that is a benzo myth I have personally busted."

 

You singlehandedly pointed your finger at every person who went through protracted withdrawal and called them all liars. When determining who the turd is the toilet, you self identified with that comment alone. You are obviously that all knowing benzo knowing entity you claimed you thought others were, lol.

 

You said, " I am not asking for an apology, just the right to express my experience without having to defend it to self proclaimed benzo Messiahs." ---You have that right and executed it...and everyone else has the right to disagree or respond, which they did. Don't be a hypocrite.

 

[[No...]]

China,

 

I was addressing your original statement.

 

"And as for scaring people with the "protracted withdrawal" bogie man, well, that is a benzo myth I have personally busted." -It was a wrong and asinine thing to say.

 

If you would have just said you didn't updose and were happy because you pushed through the withdrawal that was what the OP was looking for. You added all kinds of crap about all kinds of un-related topics, in which I covered. Don't try to act like the almighty victim in this thread when you come spewing crap.

 

Let me post again what you said, "And as for scaring people with the "protracted withdrawal" bogie man, well, that is a benzo myth I have personally busted."

 

You singlehandedly pointed your finger at every person who went through protracted withdrawal and called them all liars. When determining who the turd is the toilet, you self identified with that comment alone. You are obviously that all knowing benzo knowing entity you claimed you thought others were, lol.

 

You said, " I am not asking for an apology, just the right to express my experience without having to defend it to self proclaimed benzo Messiahs." ---You have that right and executed it...and everyone else has the right to disagree or respond, which they did. Don't be a hypocrite.

 

No, she really didn't point her finger at every person, etc., at all. Ahem.

 

The idea here is that decreasing benzos at a reasonable rate (not a cold turkey, but not a turtle taper, either) doesn't make protracted withdrawal an inevitability. I've seen it stated that way, and it simply isn't true.

 

There are advantages and disadvantages to every tapering method. If there were an end-all, be-all for getting off of benzos, we wouldn't be here. That's why it's good to hear from as many people as possible who have gone through the experience, especially those like ChinaDoll and Juliea, who've come out successfully on the other side of it.

 

In the end, to each her own, though. The right tapering method is the one that works for you.

[[th...]]

Ok. That was a little intense. I think everyone on this board needs to realize the reason for the board is for people who do have issues getting off, have protracted syx, and all other kinds of problems tapering during/after can find help and support. This is not a board for those people who came off and were fine, which there are plenty of those people too out there, they just don't feel any need for support bc they are fine. People on this board are looking for support bc they are having a hard time and maybe are scared or whatever. But we also need to realize the people on this board are not the end-all of benzo users, not that anyone said that, but sometimes I think people find this board and think it is and get even more anxious bc the stories on here are prob worse case scenarios and then people think 'omg that's gonna be me now what is my next move....or... 'I m gonna be sick for 4 more years!' and they get all freaked out. And the people who are freaked out are the ones who need us for support whether they updose, downdose, sidedose, or whatever. And this support can simply be our experience. Now I am rambling so ttfn 

[[os...]]

 

 

I could not taper at Ashton's rate even if I wanted to, that is self evident to me, I even had CT like symptoms going slow, an Ashton taper would not have been far removed from a CT, in fact it would have been worse.

 

Gardnerforhealth on here was a long term user, her taper was so fast after over 2 decades of use that she was hospitalized and then some time post taper had to go into hospital again for 6 weeks due to extreme terror, you see, everyone is different.

 

Personally, I don't want to be so terrified I wind up in a hospital bed... because I "only have a few mgs to go"...

 

Too risky... this stuff can really mess people up for some time, long term users may get off lightly but in my case I don't think I would based on my own experiences so far... Great that Challis and Juliea managed but I worry about doing a 24 year life review in a fast pace... that's a long time to have come flooding back...

 

Read Gardenerforhealth's success story, it's pretty scary stuff...

[[th...]]

Plus I think it depends on the drug you are wd from.....K and V seem to give more long term issues than X.  Just an observation....I could be wrong. I believe both Julea and Chall tapered the short acting X. It might have something to do with the final outcome and future issues. I just can't find a lot of X users on the board right now so maybe that is why I think that. I wish there were more bc I will taper X to the end, but I also don't bc it kinda gives me hope they aren't here bc they are ok and on with their lives. Just a thought...not at all scientifically backed up.

[[mr...]]

Plus I think it depends on the drug you are wd from.....K and V seem to give more long term issues than X.  Just an observation....I could be wrong. I believe both Julea and Chall tapered the short acting X. It might have something to do with the final outcome and future issues. I just can't find a lot of X users on the board right now so maybe that is why I think that. I wish there were more bc I will taper X to the end, but I also don't bc it kinda gives me hope they aren't here bc they are ok and on with their lives. Just a thought...not at all scientifically backed up.

Hi Grinch,

Have you looked at Mrsalw?

She is directly tapering xanax.

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=79163.0

 

[[th...]]

No. Thanks. I will.