Benzo stored in fat causing waves??

[[On...]]

Hi Pinkee. I'm so happy for you on your great taper.

 

I see on your signature that in February you started titration with 'half' a 2 mg tablet in water. So that would have been 1 mg and reducing from there. Later, you say you were down to 2 mg. was that a miscalculation and you were actually down to half of the 1 mg? Or were you putting a whole 2 mg tablet in liquid all along?

 

If you are actually down to half of what you thought you were at all along, whoooooheeeee!!!!!!!

You have just hit the JACKPOT!!!!!!    :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

It did seem you have been dropping rather quickly and I wonder if this is a part of the reason you have had difficulty thinking and functioning well recently. It's hard to think that another cut and hold would hurt you and would give your body more time to renourish and rebuild those neural cells.  I know you have been under a LOT of pressure from family to cut, but finishing your withdrawal and walking off without undue side effects that seT you back or keep you bed bound would be lovely for you. I know you have suffered a great deal so far.

 

 

[[Be...]]

I found this mice research article about how w/d s/x's from long term benzo use is caused by an increase in glutamate receptors.  I also read in another mice research article that our GABA receptors upregulate rather quickly after w/d, but the mice research seems to show that glutamate is the problem.  I think that the waves we experience are from the unopposed glutamate and increased electrical activity in our bodies causes by this, rather than any stored fat releasing causing s/x's.  Perserverence posted alot of info on the glutamate hypothesis in another section of Chewing the Fat, but the research has only been done on mice that I know of.  Many of us are sensitive to glutamate containing foods in w/d, so this mice research seems to make sense.  Too bad human studies haven't been done. 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904841/

[[ih...]]

All my sx seemed to be related to excess GLU & I believe that this is why clonidine was so successful for me as it has been found to mitigate the fx of GLU toxicity.

 

I have always thought that length of exposure to benzos might have a bearing on GABA receptor adaption but we have no way of knowing as I am not aware of any studies that compare say 6 weeks of exposure with 6 months or 6 years, even in lab rats.

[[On...]]

I found this mice research article about how w/d s/x's from long term benzo use is caused by an increase in glutamate receptors.  I also read in another mice research article that our GABA receptors upregulate rather quickly after w/d, but the mice research seems to show that glutamate is the problem.  I think that the waves we experience are from the unopposed glutamate and increased electrical activity in our bodies causes by this, rather than any stored fat releasing causing s/x's.  Perserverence posted alot of info on the glutamate hypothesis in another section of Chewing the Fat, but the research has only been done on mice that I know of.  Many of us are sensitive to glutamate containing foods in w/d, so this mice research seems to make sense.  Too bad human studies haven't been done. 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2904841/

 

Much of the research on glutamate toxicity in humans is in the arena of Amylateral Sclerosis, Multiple Sclerosis, Huntington's Disease, seizure disorders, and now even autism. This research just has not been applied much to benzo recovery. Disregulation of the glutamate receptors is involved in all these disorders. In several of them, glutamate neural toxicity becomes so massive it leads to death.

 

In the Alternate Theories board (even though it's not alternative), there is a thread on "glutamate links" that has links to much of this information.

[[ih...]]

Unfortunately, it still doesn't tell us what happens to human GABA receptors after medium to long term exposure to benzos.

[[Be...]]

These mice studies have determined that mice have create too many glutamate receptors during w/d.  I would think that eventually our bodies will figure it out that we don't need these extra receptors anymore, which would lead to the paring down of them and the healing and balancing of GABA/glutamate dynamic that goes on.  I see so many times on this forum that external stress in a person's life keeps people in waves or starts one.  I think it slows the healing, being unable to "pare down" these extra glutamate receptors.  I wonder how the fat storage theory could work itself into this mice research and other human research about the GABA/glutamate balance?  Something to chew on.   

[[ih...]]

I agree that it's clear that our system returns to homeostasis, otherwise we wouldn't all heal.

 

It would just be useful to know after what period of exposure to benzos do these receptor changes happen for the majority.

[[Be...]]

I think I read somewhere in all that mice research I looked at that when you hit tolerance w/d, then the extra glutamate receptors start coming in.  So the fat storage theory might explain why some people feel somewhat worse at many months off, when they're fat storages are finally being depleted entirely; the glutamate receptors are more unopposed.  Just my own rambling thoughts and theory and trying to put it all together. 

[[...]]

If I had run into big problems with my taper I would have definitely tried a very aggressive glutamate diet. It certainly looks like something reasonable to try. If there are problems around the end of and just after a taper gingko looks like it's worth a try as well.

[[Mo...]]

If I had run into big problems with my taper I would have definitely tried a very aggressive glutamate diet. It certainly looks like something reasonable to try. If there are problems around the end of and just after a taper gingko looks like it's worth a try as well.

 

bart can you please explain more spesific. i got a bottle of gingko yesterday but i am

too scared to take it.

so sorry about the interruption bart and beck. this thread is so interesting.

but alone the words ''ginko tapering'' scares the hell out of me.

thank you.

[[Be...]]

How do they get the mice to tell them what side effects they're experiencing?

[[Be...]]

Nevermind, I googled it! Mickey Mouse translates everything for them!

[[Pi...]]

Oh benzy , there u go with your dapper wit again.....lol   

  Onelove, I made a mistake on my sig. I meant 1/2 of a 2 mg in milk and 2mg this equals 2 1/2 mgs. So at that stage , I was on 2 1/2 . I swallowed the 2mg and drank the milk with the 1/2 mg and milk.

    Does that make sense?

                        I am now down to 1/8 mg . I think I will cut one more time. Then jump. Seems to be smart move? Mmm this is tricky hey. 

[[Pi...]]

Becks that makes sense about the glutamate excess . We have to have balance don't we! Both GABA and glutamate . I'm not sure about the GABA coming out in our systems later. I would think it would be removed from our body by way of waste products...?

      If our glutamate is excessive and at same time our GABA is not working there lies the problem. It's not that we don't have GABA , it's that GABA has gone to sleep?   

[[...]]

If I had run into big problems with my taper I would have definitely tried a very aggressive glutamate diet. It certainly looks like something reasonable to try. If there are problems around the end of and just after a taper gingko looks like it's worth a try as well.

 

bart can you please explain more spesific. i got a bottle of gingko yesterday but i am

too scared to take it.

so sorry about the interruption bart and beck. this thread is so interesting.

but alone the words ''ginko tapering'' scares the hell out of me.

thank you.

 

Hi Morreweg

Just go to the gingko thread started by Devant for the details. Adie and Surprised could also help you with dosage schedules

Bart

[[Mr...]]

Hello everyone.... Well back in April/may I did a too fast taper from 4 mg valium... Tapered to 1 mg in about 5 weeks. I held the 1 mg valium dose for about a week and jumped. It was a bit rough until around day 16 off then in one night my sleep went from about 4 hours to 2 hours... Then day 17, 18, 19 days off things got way way worse each day, I now know it was the rest of the valium built up in my body leaving my system. So day 34 off my panic attacks, lack of sleep (1 hour per nite) and anxiety sent me to the ER where I reinstated to 5 mg valium it took me about 2 months to stabilize again.... I'm currently on 4.5 mg valium and plan on doing a slow micro daily or weekly taper, holding as necessary and going down to approx .010 mg for weeks before I jump this time. I tried the other way and just could not live my life feeling like for possible 6 months or a year.... I run a large company here in Canada and just can't afford to stay in my room freaking out for 6 moths trying to heal..... This is just my opinion based on my past results hope it may help another member out there in any way, shape or form ..... I wish all my great friends here a wonderful day and great healing always....Mr scared.... Peace....

[[Mr...]]

Hello everyone.... Well back in April/may I did a too fast taper from 4 mg valium... Tapered to 1 mg in about 5 weeks. I held the 1 mg valium dose for about a week and jumped. It was a bit rough until around day 16 off then in one night my sleep went from about 4 hours to 2 hours... Then day 17, 18, 19 days off things got way way worse each day, I now know it was the rest of the valium built up in my body leaving my system. So day 34 off my panic attacks, lack of sleep (1 hour per nite) and anxiety sent me to the ER where I reinstated to 5 mg valium it took me about 2 months to stabilize again.... I'm currently on 4.5 mg valium and plan on doing a slow micro daily or weekly taper, holding as necessary and going down to approx .010 mg for weeks before I jump this time. I tried the other way and just could not live my life feeling like for possible 6 months or a year.... I run a large company here in Canada and just can't afford to stay in my room freaking out for 6 moths trying to heal..... This is just my opinion based on my past results hope it may help another member out there in any way, shape or form ..... I wish all my great friends here a wonderful day and great healing always....Mr scared.... Peace....

[[Mo...]]

If I had run into big problems with my taper I would have definitely tried a very aggressive glutamate diet. It certainly looks like something reasonable to try. If there are problems around the end of and just after a taper gingko looks like it's worth a try as well.

 

bart can you please explain more spesific. i got a bottle of gingko yesterday but i am

too scared to take it.

so sorry about the interruption bart and beck. this thread is so interesting.

but alone the words ''ginko tapering'' scares the hell out of me.

thank you.

 

Hi Morreweg

Just go to the gingko thread started by Devant for the details. Adie and Surprised could also help you with dosage schedules

Bart

 

thank you bart. i wish this thread would continue and beck and colin will participate

again.

[[Bi...]]

I have heard that if your over weight and done tapering you need to diet extra slowly if losing weight is your goal. 

[[On...]]

In my opinion, based on how many people lose considerable weight after they are off benzos no matter how much they eat or try NOT to, it is better to actually have some extra weight before quitting. The healthy range of Body Mass Index gets heavier anyway as we get older and the reason for this is to carry us through health crises. In my opinion, I wouldn't worry about weight til all is said and done. I wish I had some extra weight going into this taper. If I lose radically after quitting, I may not survive. I'm surprised I've survived this long after getting down to 77 pounds.

[[Be...]]

I did read in one mice study with benzo w/d that their GABA receptors upregulated rather quickly after the jump.  I still don't know about the GABA receptors being down for too long.  I always ask the question?  Why am I able to fall asleep rather quickly at night and stay asleep if my GABA receptors are not upregulated?  We need good GABA to sleep.  So, how do you know mice are suffering w/d s/x's? There are a bunch of contraptions and mazes, water swimming, open arms, etc. that have been developed to study their behavior and mental state.  Scientists have studied mice for a long time and observe their changes in mental status with these tests.  They put the mice to the test to see if their afraid, anxious, exploring-relaxed, etc.  There was another study I read where they sliced open a mouse brain after long term benzo use and w/d s/x's and looked at it under a scope and found an area densely packed with these newly created glutamate receptors.  If you search you can find these studies.  I wonder if I've got too many glutamate receptors now that need thinned out?     

[[Co...]]

It would make sense that the brain would increase glutamate receptors. The brain wants to keep homeostasis. It sees that there is more GABA activity from taking benzos, so it responds by down regulating GABA and/or increasing glutamate receptors.

 

One way to compare this is anabolic steroids. I know this is a hormonal thing but it seems that it might be similar because it is a homeostasis thing. When we take anabolic steroids (as males) it increases the amount of testosterone in the body substantially. The body responds by shutting down it's own production of testosterone (think shrinkage in that special area) and raising the amount of estrogen by converting more of the testosterone to estrogen (think boobs on men). Now not all guys will suffer these side effects and others will get even more problems/side effects.

 

I think it is similar except the brain heals a lot slower than the hormonal system, not to mention GABA/Glutamate seem to be the 2 main neurotransmitters. So I guess what I'm trying to say is if GABA is high Glutamate would raise and vice versa. This has been proven in Alcoholism by the way. One of the reasons Gabapentin is frequently used in alcohol detox.

[[...]]

I did read in one mice study with benzo w/d that their GABA receptors upregulated rather quickly after the jump.  I still don't know about the GABA receptors being down for too long. 

I do. It took 7 months for mine to start to re-regulate. And I am NOT unusual here.

 

1) I'm not a mouse

2) I will not listen to anyone, any more, except the other other people here, who know WAY more than any one else does about what we are doing through.

[[Bi...]]

In my opinion, based on how many people lose considerable weight after they are off benzos no matter how much they eat or try NOT to, it is better to actually have some extra weight before quitting. The healthy range of Body Mass Index gets heavier anyway as we get older and the reason for this is to carry us through health crises. In my opinion, I wouldn't worry about weight til all is said and done. I wish I had some extra weight going into this taper. If I lose radically after quitting, I may not survive. I'm surprised I've survived this long after getting down to 77 pounds.

 

Hi  Onelove,  77 lbs.?  What do you do on windy days     -  I'll trade you some of my fat from some of your skinny   Do we have a deal?

[[On...]]

In my opinion, based on how many people lose considerable weight after they are off benzos no matter how much they eat or try NOT to, it is better to actually have some extra weight before quitting. The healthy range of Body Mass Index gets heavier anyway as we get older and the reason for this is to carry us through health crises. In my opinion, I wouldn't worry about weight til all is said and done. I wish I had some extra weight going into this taper. If I lose radically after quitting, I may not survive. I'm surprised I've survived this long after getting down to 77 pounds.

 

Hi  Onelove,  77 lbs.?  What do you do on windy days     -  I'll trade you some my fat from some of your skinny   Do we have a deal?

 

DEAL!!!

 

Maybe we can lay on gurneys side by side and get simultaneous transplants.  :laugh: