Tapering off Ativan Support Thread

[[Ma...]]

HI,

 

I really don't know how it would be to switch from V to A again.  I do know that the switch I made from K to A was pretty bad.  But it was complicated by not being given the equivalent dose.

 

I was on ativan for appox. 10 years without serious problems, and then got put on klonopin.  Klonopin started wrecking me pretty fast.  It is a much harsher drug than ativan, in my opinion.

 

These drugs are all benzos, but from what I have experienced, they are not really interchangable.  It is not really a matter of just getting an equivalent dose of the other drug.  Because they all have their own metabolites and their own quirks about them.  They all affect you differently.

 

When I walked into my present docs office, completely suffering from klonopin, he said "Let's get you back to what your body is used to."  And put me back on ativan.

 

I know if I would have stayed on klonopin, my body would have continued to get worse and worse.  Whatever is in that drug, REALLY did a number on my body.

 

Yes valium has many more metabolites than ativan, and it is harder on the liver.  Ativan is a pretty "clean burning" benzo.  It is not hard on the liver, it is not hard to metabolize.  It will still wreck your gaba receptors.  But as far as metabolites, it is a bit kinder on the body.

 

If the reason you went on v is because of interdose w/d, and that has gone away for you, try to remember what the i/d w/d was like, and if you really want to go back to that.  Personally, I don't think it is good to keep switching.  I think that can be harmful.

[[On...]]

Thank you so much, Mairin33, for your well thought out answer. It looks as though you tapered all the way down on Ativan. Was that very difficult for you and did you divide into. 4 even doses ?

 

One of the primary reasons I would even consider this switch back to Ativan is that I've just been diagnosed with pancreatitis. It is VERY painful and I believe it is the Valium causing it. I don't know that my weakened 80 pound body can handle a very long taper on Valium and I know my CNS could not handle a fast taper.

 

I'm considering doing a "reverse" crossover using an amended Ashton plan. I know the metabolites  from the Valium will be in my body during that process, which complicates it quite a lot. It is much harder to figure a crossover plan in the reverse.

 

When you switched from one to the other and back again, that must have been VERY hard not being given an equivalent dose. Did you crossover gradually or were you forced to do it all at one time?  I can't begin to imagine what that must have been like.

 

I think if I DO have to cross back due to liver complications and pancreatitis, I will need a very savvy person as a consultant to help guide me through the process and think this through. My doctor is very agreeable to any information I bring him, but he admits to knowing very little about benzos except that he wouldn't give them himself. He is rescuing me by helping with my taper and he would live to see me successfully off and clean.  - - - We just might not have as much time as we thought we would to accomplish it.

 

Thanks again!  OL. 

[[ja...]]

Dear One Love, I just wanted to encourage you today. I read your post from yesterday on the Valium blog and I also read the response you got today. I'm so sorry I have never thought Up Dosing was good either, but you can certainly talk about it wherever you want to. I can see you are having some bad struggles and it is very confusing as to what to do.

 

Even c/o to Ativan may not change the situation so please think about this for a bit before making your decision. Do not feel bad for anything you ask on this forum. This forum is for support not for people to get PISSED off at you for asking a ?

 

I'm in your corner and will support you in anyway I can as I said before. Take care

 

Love Jackie :smitten:

[[On...]]

Dear One Love, I just wanted to encourage you today. I read your post from yesterday on the Valium blog and I also read the response you got today. I'm so sorry I have never thought Up Dosing was good either, but you can certainly talk about it wherever you want to. I can see you are having some bad struggles and it is very confusing as to what to do.

 

Even c/o to Ativan may not change the situation so please think about this for a bit before making your decision. Do not feel bad for anything you ask on this forum. This forum is for support not for people to get PISSED off at you for asking a ?

 

I'm in your corner and will support you in anyway I can as I said before. Take care

 

Love Jackie :smitten:

 

Oh my, your post is such a welcome relief and comfort!!!  Thank you so much. I certainly never want to offend anyone, breech any boundaries, or wear out my welcome here. Benzo Buddies is what has saved my life so far, and that is NOT stretching the truth!  If not for kind and generous people like you who have helped me along the way and pointed me in the right direction, I would not be here today.

 

My gastroenterologist I saw just this morning believes my "solution" is to cold turkey immediately. His attitude towards my tapering down is that it's only an emotional attachment that keeps me "clinging to my tranquilizer".  Boy, he needs to read a bit here at BB, doesn't he?  I'm so glad my General Practitioner respects BB and has seen willing to prescribe based on the information I get here.

 

After careful consideration, I think I've arrived at the same position you have. There is no guarantee that crossing back over to Ativan because it is easier on the liver will not cause me more problems than good. I think I'll just hang tough a while longer and see if my liver enzymes get better again or continue to worsen. My updose following my ER trip was not that big really and if I can get stable on it, continuing to micro taper daily may be just what I need.

 

Thank you again for your kindness and welcoming graciousness. I feel much less distressed.

 

Love, ~OneLove. :smitten:

[[Ma...]]

Hi OneLove,

 

Your situation is complex.  You have a liver ailment.  Yes the valium will probably aggrevate that.

 

But your wieght loss is very disturbing.  Was that caused by the Ativan?  Were you at a normal weight before ativan?

 

No adult should be 80lbs. 

 

Yes you need a specialist.  You need House!  lol

 

I can see the benefit of going back on ativan because of the liver.

 

but then you may have to deal with i/d withdrawal.

 

I was warned about i/d withdrawal, and I thought I was gonna hit that at 5 mgs ativan lol.  But I didn't.  And really I still have not.  I split up my dose into four doses a day, and I do not feel i/d w/d.  Unless i miss a dose for a few hours.

[[On...]]

Marin,

 

Thanks. Your experience is very thought provoking. It's reassuring to know you haven't had significant problems with interdose withdrawals. That was my NIGHTMARE existence when I was on a once a day dose. And when it got down to .25, it seriously nearly killed me. Looking back now at my 4 day hospitalization in late May, I recognize that almost all my sx were benzo wd sx. Not a single doctor out of many figured that out. Even when that evening .25 mg stopped every symptom, every day. Looking back, I can see that we were ALL so blind and ignorant.

 

My weight was 112 last September, the highest it had ever been in my life. I had a LOT of stresses from the previous few years and I had just gone back to school to finish an acupuncture degree. The school apartment I moved into was, unfortunately, badly infected with mold. It's hard NOT to be in Florida, lol. I became sick due to that, but kept up my daily school and study schedule through the fall, the whole time being sick. Doctors pooh poohed the mold as a causative factor and said it must be a virus because I had no fever. No treatment for virus, they said, just time. By December, I weighed 98 pounds. I didn't worry then because I had weighed 93 pounds when I married. I quit school and moved back to my home in another state when my lung infection turned into gastro issues. At the end of January, I weighed 95 pounds when I was prescribed Ativan. I didn't even notice that I continued to lose weight until an endo appointment for my thyroid in late March.  When they weighed me at 83 pounds, I was astounded. I was sure their scales were wrong,  haha. They weren't. Within a week we flew to Arizona to the Mayo Clinic. We ended up staying in Phoenix a month working with 2 different successive clinics to regain my weight. Instead of gaining, I kept losing. This whole time, since late January, I continued to take Ativan 1x day. The sx kept worsening. We thought I had some weird dread UNDIAGNOSED DISEASE. From Phoenix, we went to Atlanta where I spent 4 days in a hospital there undergoing every test they had. Nada. By Atlanta in May, I was having waking at 1:00 am EVERY NIGHT feeling like I was being burned alive and walking the halls incessantly the rest of the night moaning in pain. Not even morphine stopped it. Not even TWO shots of morphine stopped it. Only a shot of Ativan stopped every symptom dead in its tracks. And STILL none of us figured it out.

 

So, on the gastro issues, about every test known to man has been done without any cause showing up. My pancreatitis is likely caused by a combination of the benzo use since I switched to Valium AND since I've been "refeeding" to get my weight back up, I've been eating a LOT more fats and protein, both hard on the liver. What a fine dance this is to balance everything! 

 

Ativan's short time clearance from the body would be a nice advantage for me if I can dose often enough to prevent interdose wd sx. How to successfully switch back is a hard puzzle to put together. At first I thought just a reverse Ashton plan from A to V would work. Then I realized I have a lot of buildup in my body of the Valium metabolites,  so I don't know how that would affect things. Of course, maybe I DON'T have metabolite build up because I have no body fat to store it. 

 

You are being successful on an Ativan taper, so that is encouraging.  My equivalent dose would be much lower than you are at right now. Do you know any Ativan taperers that are at a much lower dose than you and do you know how they are doing with it?

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to post and thanks for your concern.  ~OneLove  :smitten:

[[mo...]]

Thanks for helping a old marine out Mairin . Taking .25 midday second dose work really well. Think I'll chill out and stay here 10 - 14 days and stabilize . MM

[[Ma...]]

Hi,

 

I hope y'all don't think I am a doctor.  I'm not, and I don't even play one on TV. 

 

Anything I say is just from experience and doing this and being here for more than a year on BB.  I suspect I don't have all the answers. 

 

I was pretty much completely obsessed with this for many months, because I was in acute withdrawal after being put on a high dose of Klonopin and then taken off it and put on a still high but not high enough dose of Ativan.  So I went into severe withdrawal.  And on top of that I had withdrawn from Lamactil about a month before that switch and I was still reeling from that.  And on top of that I had been on a whole bunch of a/ds, one after another in the fall of 2011.  All of that because I was basically having a nervous breakdown from life stresses and I fell into the hands of a shrink who just loved to write prescriptions and totally believed I needed to be drugged into oblivion.

 

If I would have had some understanding and support, love if you will, during that time period, instead of certain people trying to upset me to death, perhaps that would never have happened.  But, it did.

 

But now, here I am, I am off all drugs except ativan, and I am trying to get off that.

 

So, I am just a human being going through this, but I have been around here so long that I have seen and read a lot.  I have watched people go on Valium, go on other drugs, get off, heal, reinstate, etc. so on and so forth.  I try to put together what I think works, that's all.

 

Mountain Man, at the risk of sounding annoying, if I were you I would tweak your doses.  I agree with what the other poster said about keeping blood levels even.  He apparently cuts so that all his/her doses are even.  That is easier to do when water titrating, not impossible with pills but I would reckon kind of inaccurate.  Just because it is so hard to cut the pills into the doses you want.  So instead of driving myself mad doing that, I just cut each dose in turn.

 

Like right now, I am on .25, .25., 25, .25.  Those are all even doses, that is all nice and peachy.  But I will cut again.  I try to keep it so that is is as even as possible.

 

So like for you, I notice you are on .25, .25, .125, .125.  It might be better to turn it into this:

 

.125, .25, .125, .25

 

That way, it would not be so top heavy during the early part of the day.  Not totally even doses, but more even than what you are doing now.  Just a suggestion.  If this is working for you, then that is fine too.  Perhaps you don't feel the need so much at night, which is kinda good too.  I am glad it helped you to keep the .25 dose at midday.

 

OneLove, I can't diagnose, but there was someone on here that had issues with mold.  Haven't seen her around.  I think sometimes doctors don't want to treat certain things, because they are hard to treat.  So they look for other things.  Mold is one of those things that is hard to treat.  Doctors, you know they are human.  They want to fix people, they want to be able to work magic.  If they come across something they don't know how to fix, they get weird sometimes.  Maybe get a mold test.  Everything you are saying, starts off with, "I moved into an apt with mold in Florida".

[[sa...]]

Been trying to taper but something always comes up I get so lightheaded and head feels heavey just feels good to lay my head down. Anyone else ever had that

[[Ma...]]

HI Sales,

 

It might help if you put your tapering history in a signature.  Then people can see what you've done and offer advice on tapering. 

 

Yes lightheadedness and fogginess or "cog fog" is a common symptom.

 

I had that real bad in the beginning but it has gone away over time.

[[mo...]]

Thank you Mairin , It seems I do better at my evening doses than during the day . I see your point about keeping doses even in your blood. What has been really helping me and I can share this with the rest of the forum . I have always walked about 2 miles a day almost everyday . I have picked that up not only walking but hiking in the mountains. The more I do the better I feel. Kinda also keeps your mind of off WD's. MM

[[Em...]]

 

Hi all,

 

I am tapering off of 1 mg of ativan that I have been taking daily for 5 years for insomnia. Dumb prescription but what's done is done. I have been looking though this thread trying to find discussions of the huge differential between the lorazepam to diazepam equivalents in the US and the UK. My shrink had me jump from .5 mg lorazepam to 2.5 mg diazepam overnight. After that, I had a very rough four days. Today (day five) seems better, but in the seven weeks I've been doing this I have learned that there are good days and bad days, so I don't assume this is a permanent improvement. 

 

What is the the current opinion on why the Ashton Manual compares 1 mg lorazepam to 10 mg of diazepam, while the US pharmaceutical guides say it's 1mg to 5mg? I am sure this question has been thoroughly explored so please excuse me for not being able to find much info with the search function.

 

Also, I notice the frequency that ativan taperers report tinnitus. This is very reassuring, as tinnitus and dizziness have been my major problems (along with the usual periods of mind-blowing anxiety).

 

Thank you.

[[Ma...]]

Hi Emily,

 

Yeah your doc probably did not give you the right equivalent.  Ashton recommends 1mg A = 10 mgs V.  So .5 should have been 5 mg V for you.

 

Yes I have seen that in the US the equivalent is stated to be half of what Ashton recommends.  I would tend to think Ashton is more accurate because she has worked exensively with benzo withdrawal. 

 

The US recommendation is more based on pharmaceutical uses for doctors dealing with seisure patients, is the feeling I get about that.  Not really based on long term use and addiction issues, which is what Ashton was more concerned with.

 

That said, people have survived inequivalent drops in dose.  It is very hard to explain these things to a doctor.  They know better, you are just the patient.  I say that facetiously.

 

Sometimes though, people can get away with less valium than Ashton recommends.  Everyone's body is different.  Ashton's equivalencies are a very good guide, but that does not mean that for every person on earth 1 mg A will be equivalent to 10 mg V.  But, sounds like he did not do it right, he did not gradually cross you over, and he did go with the lesser recommendation.  Some docs are just too busy and uninterested and rigid to listen to anything contrary to what the book says.  Not right, but it is what it is.

 

There is also a very great prejudice doctor's have to deal with in using Valium.  There are some medical reasons for it, Valium caused a lot of trouble back in the 70's, and has really never outlived that rep.  You are much more likely to be prescribed the more potent benzos like A, K and X than valium.  That does not make any sense,  but A, K and X are simply more acceptable and don't have the same, um, media coverage that valium did.

 

Doctor's are fine prescribing like say 1 or 2 mgs ativan, which is worth 10 to 20 mgs V, but damned if they will prescribe the equivalent of valium.  Numbers, even though they should not matter, do matter.

 

I hope you can stabelize from this switch and get to feel comfortable on the valium.  He should let your body adjust to it before trying to move you down.  I hope he does.  If he doesn't, maybe look into finding a more sympathetic and experienced doc, maybe a shrink that does not take insurance.  It may be worth it.

[[Bi...]]

Also you have to be on valium for 10 to 14 days in order to hit a full saturation. People underestimate how long you have to take it in order to get enough built up in your blood stream, tissues and bones.  Its not like taking Ativan or Xanax at all.

[[...]]

I'll bet there is significant variation in benzo equivalencies among individuals as in all other things benzo. This would partially explain some of the different experiences we see here. I was able to c/o from Ativan to Valium quite easily in a few weeks and I continued to taper the whole time. On the other hand, I was hit with problems late in my taper and had to slow way down. That's benzos.

 

[[Al...]]

I had a similar experience to Bart.

I was on Ativan and tapering and suffering all the way from 1 mg. down to .78 couldn't get below that.

Then finally convinced my Doc. To let me cross over to Valium. He was initially totally against this.

I cross over stepwise fashion as Ashton lays out in her documents. I think I took maybe 6-8 weeks to complete it but it went smooth as can be and like Bart with every substitution of V for A, I made reductions.

I finished the crossover at 4.5 mgs. V. I felt great. Then from 4.5V to 2.5V no problem, I thought I was on easy street. Then going from 2.5 to 2.25 bang, symptoms. Mainly headaches, IBS, burning skin, loss of appetite. But looking back, it still is not as bad as the A symptoms were.

 

I just have to slow it down now and stablize.

 

Everyone is different that's for sure.

 

Best of success to all of you going through this and for those of you that have completed your journey a special thank you for coming back here and helping us!

[[Em...]]

Hi Mairin 33,

 

Thank you for taking the time to offer me an informative response. It makes sense, what you say about the reason for the difference in valium equivalents in the US. Today was a good day for me, so I will wait and see what tomorrow brings.

 

I feel a lot more optimistic about making it through this process since finding this resource and all the generous and kind people here.

 

Btw, the shrink who advised me to jump to 2.25 mg diazepam for .5 lorazepam was a fancy shrink, not covered by my insurance. He did give me some good recs on natural supplements that seem to help. Not sure that made him worth $400 for a visit, but I'll get over that, too. At least he was cute.

 

[[An...]]

Hi Mairin, I hope you are well ..

Mairin, reading your thread, I noticed that during your taper, you had blood pressure issues.

I have come across blood pressure problems, and wonder how yours were resolved.

Did the salt water help, or did you have to get medication.

Thank you for all your help Mairin.

I appreciate your input.

Wishing you wellness and healing.

Love, Anu

[[Ma...]]

Hi Anou,

 

No I did not take medication for that.

 

My blood pressure has always been low, all my life, but it was not very problematic.  Well it was something that affected me, but the withdrawal exascerbated that problem for sure.  I would say it made that problem 10x worse than it was.

 

But remember, I started off in acute withdrawal.  I started off with a severe shock to my system.  It should not be that bad for you going down gradually.

 

I dealt with it by using salt and food.  Salt raises your blood pressure.  I started by drinking salt mixed in water, but went on to drink V-8 juice.  Just easier and tastes better than salt water.  Also, keeping food like meat in my body.  Protein, specificallly meat.

 

It was real bad for me, I was fainting every day.  But I started off with a huge drop and switch of drugs.  That shocked my system terribly.  After six months or so, the fainting diminished and then completely stopped.  I have not fainted in over six months.  My body did recover enough so that that is no longer the problem it was, even though I am still tapering.

 

So simply put, eat meat.  And put salt on it.  And put salt on your food.  And drink V-8 or tomato juice.

[[ir...]]

Does anyone know how long the really bad part of withdrawal from ativan lasts for? I am almost a month from taking my last dose and still having issues. Mostly hypnic jerks and muscle twitches and jerking as I am falling asleep which keeps me awake. All this seems to be worsening the past week or so. I have even tried taking an OTC unisom for some relief and it helps. But I am afraid its going to affect my healing/recovery time to take anything at all

[[An...]]

Thank you so much Mairin,

You are wonderful, taking time to educate and support ..!! I hope your tapering is almost done ..I am sorry that you went through so much

I do go back and read your thread about tapering, hoping you will add to it ..But I understand, you will when possible.

I will do as you suggest for my BP ..It does get frightening, but now I have some tools to work with. Thank you ..

One thing I wanted to ask you is this ..I wonder why it is, that I become more  symptomatic about 20 min. after I take my " cut " dose which happens to be the 10:30 dose.

My breathing becomes more labored, my heart beats quicker, my mouth fills with access saliva.

This lasts for a long while ..It eludes me as to why ..

Did you experience anything like this, or have you heard of anyone becoming symptomatic like me?

I respect tour knowledge and expertise, and look forward to your take on this.

Wishing you well, Anu

[[ph...]]

Hi Everyone,

 

I was recommended to try posting in this thread, I would appreciate some advice?

 

About two months ago, I was given a script for (oral suspension) Ativan to be taken 0.5mg as needed. For the first several weeks, I think I used it maybe twice a week, and probably not even at 0.5, I was being cautious. Then for a week I didn't take any (we were on vacation and I didn't bring it). Since I've gotten back (three weeks now), I've taken it 2-3 times a week and even then sometimes at less than 0.5. I was also given an Ambien prescription at the time which I took in small doses on and off, but haven't taken for the past 2 weeks.

 

This past week I realized that I had taken it every other day without noticing. I finally realized yesterday that I've gotten into a bit of a cycle with it; take it, feel good for 48 hours then don't sleep, start to feel pretty anxious and take another dose. Needless to say, I want to stop this as I'm pretty sure that the anxiety/stress/lack of sleep I was feeling before I started down this road was either not as bad or certainly not any worse.

 

Do I need to a) start taking smaller doses on a regular basis, like every day? and b) do I need to wean off this at this point? Also, when I started this I was having sleeping problems and anxiety, is there a way to differentiate between withdrawal and just baseline symptoms returning? I do think that potentially they are stronger now, but I am also a bit worked up over the fact that I didn't know anything about Benzos, etc.

 

I realize that I am lucky and that this is a shorter time frame and smaller dose. I appreciate that so many of you have gone through so much more and I value your advice and opinions. Thanks in advance.

[[Ma...]]

IT is not recommended that any benzo be used for more than two weeks.

 

You should not even have a prescription for more than two weeks.

 

Because of exactly what is happening to you right now.  You are starting to need it or feel you need it.

 

If you stop now you can probably save yourself a lot of pain down the road.

 

 

YOu have taken it intermittantly so you have a good chance of not been addicted badly.  I would think twice about continuing  the Ambien, that is the same kind of drug as a benzo.

 

[[Bi...]]

IT is not recommended that any benzo be used for more than two weeks.

 

You should not even have a prescription for more than two weeks.

 

Because of exactly what is happening to you right now.  You are starting to need it or feel you need it.

 

If you stop now you can probably save yourself a lot of pain down the road.

 

 

YOu have taken it intermittantly so you have a good chance of not been addicted badly.  I would think twice about continuing  the Ambien, that is the same kind of drug as a benzo.

 

Ambien is very habit forming too and can make you sleep walk and sleep talk.  It does strange things to the brain in the long run and even after a long taper it can mess up your sleep cycle for years after.  Many long term users report only being about to sleep a few hours and then wake up at 2 or 3 AM and just can't get back to sleep even years after quitting.

[[Ma...]]

 

 

I would not take it every day.  That would be going against the intent of the prescription, to use as needed.

 

Your use has been intermittant and fairly short term.  I would say whatever sleep problems you are having are more your original problem.

 

Try not to scare yourself reading on here.  Most of the people on here have been on daily doses for many months or years.

 

You are talking about about 2 months? worth of intermittant use?  Try not to get all freaked out about this.  The odds are in your favor right now.