Dropped to 3mg from 3.5mg

[[TH...]]

Anyone else have trouble when they dropped to 3mg V? I was doing really well on 3.5, the day I dropped to 3, it went totally wrong. I've now been on 3 for a week and it's been awful. How can I be stable on 3.5 then just go downhill overnight on 3? Guessing it's common. 

Wasn't expecting it to be such a big difference. Getting the usual chest pain, waking up sweating at night, fast heart rate. That was under control at 3.5

Sorry if I sound dumb but I'm just after some reassurance 

[[kn...]]

I’ve come down from 60mgs over the course of the last 2.5 yrs.  Did very well until I arrived @ 5.  Following that, I dropped to 4. Things went sideways from that point on. I gutted it out and made it down to 2, even though I was very ill and could not participate in life. No way to live. I held at 2 for 5 months, but never stabilized. Finally up dosed back to 4, bought a scale, and am now micro tapering my way back down at the rate of 10% every 2 weeks. Caution:  Low dose cuts mean a much slower pace than they would at 10. You’re cutting a larger % each time. Be careful. See how long it takes to stabilize, but you’re probably going to have to wait much longer than just a few weeks before cutting again. 

[[TH...]]

Thank you. I started at 20mg back in March 2023. Currently down to 3mg. I'm cutting .5mg every 2 weeks sometimes 3 depending on how I'm feeling. So now we're at the lower dose, it's crucial that we taper even slower? I can understand that. I would be cutting again next Thursday to 2.5 but I don't think that'll be happening for a while now. 

60mg to what you're on now is huge. Well done to you for getting this far. 

[[Bu...]]

Hi - 3.5 to 3 is big drop in terms of receptor occupancy. At 3.5 mg 12.4%  of your GABA A receptors were occupied and when you dropped to 3 you went to 10.8% - it may not seem large but you removed quite a bit receptor occupancy wise. This is from Mark Horowitz’s book The Maudsley Deprescribing Guideline's. If you are able to grab the book (off Amazon) he shows a slower taper with reductions to 3.4 and then 3.1 which might be a little more gentle. Hope you feel better soon. I think another drop to 2.5mg would probably be too much if you’re feeling this bad. You could try going to 2.75mg and then 2.5. Sometimes you’ve gotta slow down at the lower doses. I recommend grabbing that book so know what your receptor occupancy is as you drop! 

Edited April 25 by [Bu...]
More info

[[TH...]]

1 hour ago, [[B...] said:

Hi - 3.5 to 3 is big drop in terms of receptor occupancy. At 3.5 mg 12.4%  of your GABA A receptors were occupied and when you dropped to 3 you went to 10.8% - it may not seem large but you removed quite a bit receptor occupancy wise. This is from Mark Horowitz’s book The Maudsley Deprescribing Guideline's. If you are able to grab the book (off Amazon) he shows a slower taper with reductions to 3.4 and then 3.1 which might be a little more gentle. Hope you feel better soon. I think another drop to 2.5mg would probably be too much if you’re feeling this bad. You could try going to 2.75mg and then 2.5. Sometimes you’ve gotta slow down at the lower doses. I recommend grabbing that book so know what your receptor occupancy is as you drop! 

Thank you for your insight. I'm in the UK so managed to just purchase a copy off Amazon. Will definitely be reading about the receptor occupancy etc. Sounds like it will help a lot. 

Yes, I think I'll be staying at 3mg for a while now till I at least start to stabilise as it were. Then like you just said, going to 2.75 when ready sounds much better.

Sorry if I sound a bit clueless...meds have messed with my thinking. Thank you again. 

 

 

[[Ka...]]

Hello @[TH...] I did the 0.5mg valium reduction but each month. This is per Ashton - but is too fast. I was breaking a 2mg tablet in four & was very keen to get off this med. 

If you reduce more slowly & steady watching symptoms that may arise then than will really help. The receptor info is crucial & helps gain an idea of what is happening at the low dose. 

 

[[Bu...]]

Yes I think if you look at some of his taper schedules you can most likely find one that is slower and won’t rock you so badly. I can only reduce by 0.6% of receptor occupancy and even that is hard 😞 I have tapered before and remeber the drop from 3.5 to 3 absolutely rocked me as well. It did resolve and then I kept on with smaller cuts. When I was less damaged I found I could reduce 0.25 and it was fine. Best of luck 

[[re...]]

THFC 900:

That is a solid drop and at these lower doses it gets crucial not to do these .5-1mg C/H

I would hold as long as necessary before you carry on. In your mind think "This is my new regular dose" Do not think about tapering AT ALL at this point. And when you stabilize WHICH YOU WILL. Then from 3mg on down  I would seriously consider a micro taper. It really is the way to go at the lower doses. (3mg on down)

Bunnie makes a very valid point with the Gaba receptor occupancy stuff. I really feel it will prove to be groundbreaking going forward in this medicine madness and the nursing of the brain with this method of reducing for homeostasis. 

[[re...]]

I got hit really bad the time I dropped from 5mg (starting dose) to an eyeing and cutting it kind of taper to 4mg in a month's time only. I was getting lost in the stores and everything. It was terrible. 

From 4mg on down I started liquid micro taper and it got real hard from 3.5 on down. But I never got super slammed from cuts once I did it this way. I am down to .80mg without suffering although lots of odd symptoms (numbness in arms, nerve stuff, twitches, headaches, out of it weirdness)  and plan to keep this receptor curve thing going as much as I can. I think the lower we jump the better IMO. 

[[Bu...]]

@[re...] may I ask how you micro taper? It seems like it worked well 

[[re...]]

Yeah no prob.

I do the poor man micro taper  with just water only. So when I started at 4 mg I would drop 2x2mg tablets in 200 ml of water I would measure nightly in a basic cooking measure cup. If you divide 4mg by 200ml of water it equals to a .02 drop per each 1ml of the syringe reduction each day. I have a spoon in the glass cup and for every syringe worth of reduction I just agitate it (not stir) with the spoon and reach in right away in about the middle of the suspension. 

Once I got to 2.5 mg. I had a bunch of 5 mg tabs so I scored these for a dry pill of 2.5 mg. Then to even reduce further I would dissolve it in 250 ml of water so NOW every 1 ml reduction on the syringe equals a nice .01 mg daily. And this gives me more flexibility as I can get .02 day if I want or even more. I have been doing a mix of .01-.02 daily starting from here down. Understand I would HOLD at each of these new methods and new doses of micro tapering to get my body adapted to this new method. So when I changed to this I would just drop the 2.5 in water to dissolve it and not take any out for 3 weeks. Just drink it. 

Then once I got down to 2 mg. I dropped the regular 2mg tablets in 200 ml of water to keep my .01 daily going. And here I held for about two weeks before doing any reductions. 

Then most recently I got down to 1mg micro tapering so now I split the 2mg tabs in half for a dry pill of 1mg that I now drop in 100ml of water to keep my .01 daily going.

Mind you sometimes I go on these reduction pushes where I am doing .02 at a time. So I will do 2ml-4ml-6ml-8ml  in a row...............then for a bit........ 9ml-10ml-11ml,12 etc. 

This is alot to take in but I hope it helps.

[[re...]]

To clarify I don't drink directly out of the measuring cup, but pour the measured water in a separate glass cup where i dump the pills in, then agitate it, reduce,  and drink it. 

[[re...]]

I mean it has been real hard and very trying at times. But I never up dosed which i think is key if you are able.  I have gotten real sick here and there, but so far never an extended house/bedbound period with this method. I have exercised pretty hard throughout mostly everyday by cycling, power walking, hiking. Some days it has been so hard, but i make myself get out and do exercise sometimes even to the point of getting a nausea feeling for a bit after. So far though I seem to recover ok from the exercise. 

 But the walk/jump  still kind of concerns me. 

[[re...]]

I don't think I can ever trust doctors again. And it just sucksu

[[Ca...]]

Wow -- welll you have answered my question about whether anyone has microtapered valium in liquid form

I started at 40 mgs and 1.5 mg clonapin Feb 2022; when I hit 12.2 dropping 1.38 mgs a month with a dry taper I hit the bed full time. So I updosed to 14 to stabilize. Ehhhhh. I am getting out of bed to walk again. And I am still holding. The plan was to taper one mg a month, dry microtaper. I am going to order this book. But, what you describe sounds so imprecise and I thought that valium did not dissolve. Doesn't it come in liquid form from the pharmacy so that you could use the syringe and pull it up from the bottle. Also I was concerned that doing a a 2.5 or 5 percent microtaper would mean I never get off. 

[[Ca...]]

and what wouuld be the rich girl's microtaper?

[[TH...]]

Thanks guys for your replies. 

What are you thoughts about updosing? I'm tempted to go back up to 3.5 today....good idea or?

[[Li...]]

On 25/04/2024 at 08:15, [[T...] said:

I was doing really well on 3.5, the day I dropped to 3, it went totally wrong. I've now been on 3 for a week and it's been awful.

This is a 14% reduction in dose (the general guideline is to keep reductions in the range of 5-10% of the previous dose).  Your response to this reduction suggests you may need to decrease your taper rate moving forward.  

Given that it’s been less than 2 weeks since you made the reduction ….  In your shoes, I would give strong consideration to updosing back to 3.5mg and then holding until I re-stabilized.

[[TH...]]

2 hours ago, [[L...] said:

This is a 14% reduction in dose (the general guideline is to keep reductions in the range of 5-10% of the previous dose).  Your response to this reduction suggests you may need to decrease your taper rate moving forward.  

Given that it’s been less than 2 weeks since you made the reduction ….  In your shoes, I would give strong consideration to updosing back to 3.5mg and then holding until I re-stabilized.

Thank you for replying. 

Yeah it was last Thursday I dropped to 3mg. Would it be ok to updose? I've never done it before during my taper and heard mixed things. 

[[No...]]

@[TH...] it's your call, but you are holding for 7-8 days which is not enough to reach stabilisation due to V half life. I would hold if I am functional and can tolerate the symptoms.