Do you think the doctors know?

[[wi...]]

Do you think the doctors know that the drugs can cause what we’re going through?

Or do you think they’re denying it simply to avoid the legal responsibilities?

[[...]]

Yes to both.

[[Na...]]

Some do. Some of those have really tighten up on their prescribing even. Others are in complete denial.

There's something that the American writer Upton Sinclair used to say that always comes to mind when someone asks this question -

I used to say to our audiences: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

That doesn't necessarily imply that they are knowingly injuring people just to make money. It's more likely that their own self interest creates a cognitive bias that blinds them to comprehending certain things.  

Edited April 10 by [Na...]

[[An...]]

On 08/04/2024 at 05:19, [[w...] said:

Do you think the doctors know that the drugs can cause what we’re going through?

Or do you think they’re denying it simply to avoid the legal responsibilities?

I think many pdocs know. The thing is some ppl would still opt to take these drugs despite any black box warnings. I mean what do you do for someone with severe panic disorder who keeps running to the ER thinking they are dying.

 Most PCPs where I am from will refuse to Rx you benzos long-term but many patients will doctor shop until they find someone who will. I just wish we had better treatment options for many of the serious mental health disorders. Most People don't start taking these drugs for recreational reasons. 

[[Sa...]]

From personal experience I'd say they don't know. I was told by my GP to taper by skipping days which didn't work at all and exacerbated my withdrawal symptoms

[[...]]

14 hours ago, [[N...] said:

Some do. Some of those have really tighten up on their prescribing even. Others are in complete denial.

There's something that the American writer Upton Sinclair used to say that always comes to mind when someone asks this question -

I used to say to our audiences: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

That doesn't necessarily imply that they are knowingly injuring people just to make money. It's more likely that their own self interest creates a cognitive bias that blinds them to comprehending certain things.  

I think you’re absolutely right with this. I think at a fundamental level they are aware that they over prescribe the medications but they hide their heads in the sand because their livelihoods depend on it.

[[or...]]

They'd have to be blind, or possibly so trusting of something they have no personal experience with.  There are doctors that are in-the-know and helping us, but not the vast majority is the problem.  Even my small, town MD has watched me recovering/tapering doing it the slow way and I also reversed my T2 Diabetes with just nutrition, not meds for that at all.  Sometimes seeing finally shows them, but I know many refuse to believe even their own eyes/ears, and studies that are being done slowly but surely.

[[or...]]

14 hours ago, [[N...] said:

Some do. Some of those have really tighten up on their prescribing even. Others are in complete denial.

There's something that the American writer Upton Sinclair used to say that always comes to mind when someone asks this question -

I used to say to our audiences: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

That doesn't necessarily imply that they are knowingly injuring people just to make money. It's more likely that their own self interest creates a cognitive bias that blinds them to comprehending certain things.  

Well said @[Na...], isn't that true with anyone trying to hold onto their career/job.  I know there are folks working in the office of our apartment building that won't speak up for the senior's that live here for fear of losing their jobs.  There are things going on here that border on (if not actually) elder abuse for example.

Anyway, I guess we are all still left with a conscience if we bow down to what we clearly know is wrong   Right now, I'm just praying we can all get through our tapers, and for those like me that are fortunate enough to still have our 'scripts filled until it's time to jump off, oregonlady

[[Ka...]]

I see doctors as a gateway to relief from physical or emotional pain or whatever issue we show up with. I don’t necessarily expect to be given tablets but a general consultation regarding what the complaint is & how it can best be managed. And referral onto specialists should we need it.

I am truly shocked having obtained my full medical notes that I was offered & I quote “something to fix a chemical imbalance”. This theory has been debunked! How on earth can a doctor write & believe this is quite telling. Or maybe not. I declined at that time but I did crumble much later, suffering brain fog, & was poly drugged thereafter. 
It gets worse. Looking much further back I was given clobazam for what turned out to be endometriosis. A horrible illness that was not investigated for years. My notes from that time have exclamation marks! I was given a benzo for the pelvic pain & not believed. She’s fussing etc. - making it up! I am afraid I now have no trust in doctors understanding us or of being capable of hearing what it is we rock up with. Or treating us accordingly. 

Edited April 11 by [Ka...]

[[La...]]

I wasn’t going to comment but only like the replies that I feel are true but….I was PAINFULLY reminded of an incident with my doctor during my taper. I feel compelled to share it because it is my answer to the question of do they know or pretend to not know. 
Before I began, let me say that my doctor at the time of my beginning to taper was very open to doing a slow taper with me and carefully watched me closely during my entire taper! I presented to her the proper way to taper me off ( thanks to this website) because she didn’t know. She thought I could just stop or quickly get off by cutting big chunks. She did her research after listening to me and found out I was correct that you can’t cut it down like that. So, we worked together and I made a chart on how to taper. She even had me to show it to her student doctors. 
Towards the end of my taper, I had an appointment with her as I did every 2 weeks to make sure my taper was going well. On that appointment, I wasn’t feeling good but I went anyway. The nurse checked my vitals and turned white ( she was already a white lady so all the color went out of her face). She told me to lay down on my left side and start holding my breath for about 10 seconds and breath out really slow. She ran out of the room and got my doctor. I didn’t know what was happening but I knew I felt weird! The doctor check me quickly and ordered an ambulance immediately! My heart rate was way too fast and she gently explained that if we don’t slow it down, it could stop suddenly. I continued the breaths and and the ambulance came. On my ride to the hospital, it stabilized. When the ambulance came, my doctor all of a sudden said to the paramedics…

” I wanted it on record that I wasn’t the one who originally prescribed the Ambien. I’m the one getting her off of it. She’s been doing a slow taper. It may be from that or a thyroid issue. But I wasn’t  the one who started her on Ambien.” 
The way she said it, her reaction of I might be in trouble and her sudden knowledge that this can happen when coming off…I knew right then that she knew or at least heard about it! Especially her comments at my follow up appointment. 
 

[[Be...]]

1 hour ago, [[L...] said:

” I wanted it on record that I wasn’t the one who originally prescribed the Ambien. I’m the one getting her off of it. She’s been doing a slow taper. It may be from that or a thyroid issue. But I wasn’t  the one who started her on Ambien.” 
The way she said it, her reaction of I might be in trouble and her sudden knowledge that this can happen when coming off…I knew right then that she knew or at least heard about it! Especially her comments at my follow up appointment. 
 

I would question the provider's lack of knowledge when s/he knows enough to cover themselves by putting it "on the record". Definitely hard to make the case the doc wasn't as ignorant as claimed. Things like this only heightens my distrust of our healthcare providers and system. 

 

[[WU...]]

On 08/04/2024 at 10:19, [[w...] said:

Do you think the doctors know that the drugs can cause

I suspect my last GP knew which is why he offered me an SSRI as I told him my symptoms were getting worse and I had now developed insomnia after he upped the diazepam dose. He told me my anxiety ( they just love that word) was the problem and I needed these drugs but I reminded him I was prescribed diazepam for chronic neck pain, never for anxiety!  I asked him why an anti-depressant would work for anxiety anyway and he mumbled something about them sometimes working for other things and even said you wouldn't believe how much pressure they are under to prescribe these things. I was shocked. What a dangerous game they are playing

[[Nu...]]

18 hours ago, [[N...] said:

That doesn't necessarily imply that they are knowingly injuring people just to make money. It's more likely that their own self interest creates a cognitive bias that blinds them to comprehending certain things.  

Well said.

[[Nu...]]

From my experience, my provider showed a combination of paternalism, ethnocentrism, and ego. When I mentioned the Ashton manual and information out of Europe, she said... "You're forgetting that this is AMERICA. And in AMERICA, we haven't researched or validated any of this, so of course we don't treat based off it."

I was floored. It's been about 40 years. We're not the problem here.

Through many other comments such as this, I feel that paternalism and ego are key drivers. Combine that with being seduced by pharma, and patients are not in a good position. There are many wonderful physicians who really care and lead with their hearts and a patient's best interest, but to an extent, I have lost faith in our healthcare system. And I'm a part of that system so this says a lot. Yet, I can't hold this against the many good providers that are out there.

[[Be...]]

Well said @nursingbuddy! I agree- the healthcare system like any other industry has its bad apples like all industries/professions. But since our product in healthcare is human life, there is no acceptable margin of error. If even 1 patient is harmed, that's 1 patient too many.

[[...]]

Maybe sometimes when a patient is in a really bad place with panic attacks the doctor does want to help. The only medical tool they have is some kind of chemical lobotomy. ADs and benzos are all they can offer. 

[[WU...]]

[[La...]]

On 11/04/2024 at 12:23, [[B...] said:

I would question the provider's lack of knowledge when s/he knows enough to cover themselves by putting it "on the record". Definitely hard to make the case the doc wasn't as ignorant as claimed. Things like this only heightens my distrust of our healthcare providers and system. 

Exactly my point! Thank you for your comment. I agree that if it quacks like a duck and walks and looks like a duck…it’s a duck! She knew! 
I hope that you are doing well and recovering nicely. I wish you all the best in your healing journey. Big hugs! 😊🤗

[[La...]]

On 11/04/2024 at 13:58, [[N...] said:

From my experience, my provider showed a combination of paternalism, ethnocentrism, and ego. When I mentioned the Ashton manual and information out of Europe, she said... "You're forgetting that this is AMERICA. And in AMERICA, we haven't researched or validated any of this, so of course we don't treat based off it."

I was floored. It's been about 40 years. We're not the problem here.

Through many other comments such as this, I feel that paternalism and ego are key drivers. Combine that with being seduced by pharma, and patients are not in a good position. There are many wonderful physicians who really care and lead with their hearts and a patient's best interest, but to an extent, I have lost faith in our healthcare system. And I'm a part of that system so this says a lot. Yet, I can't hold this against the many good providers that are out there.

I’d have to agree about the ego taking precedence over 1st to do no harm. What I’ve seen time after time is some physicians who don’t know what’s wrong with a patient or knows but don’t know what the treatment should be, they diagnose anxiety/ stress and give medications to treat that because it will give the patient a false sense of feeling better because it will make them sleep…when you’re sleep, you have no complaints. That is wrong to do that and inhumane IMO! Do you know what? I was put on Ambien because of 3 deaths in my family that happened very close together. My mother got cancer. We watched her tun into a skeleton. One of my sisters couldn’t handle her death and was prescribed benzos and AD. She “ dismissed herself” from this world a short time later ( you know what I mean). That was just before Thanksgiving that year. The next month on Xmas eve my cousin drowned while fishing before the snow arrived. Our family was in such a bad place. I had trouble sleeping ( who wouldn’t after all that! Plus in a bad marriage). A different doctor than the one who got me off it started me on Ambien . Never mentioned anything bad about it except a warning to have someone watch me for sleep driving. In which I never did that but I did sleep eat and other things while asleep. But I looked like I was fully awake. I was told ( because I did ask) that it was non habit forming, safe and when it’s time I can easily come off by simply stopping it. The doctor kept me on it every visit without even blinking…year after year. Now I’m paying the price when all he had to do was direct me to a grief counselor! 

[[Ka...]]

1 hour ago, [[L...] said:

I’d have to agree about the ego taking precedence over 1st to do no harm. What I’ve seen time after time is some physicians who don’t know what’s wrong with a patient or knows but don’t know what the treatment should be, they diagnose anxiety/ stress and give medications to treat that because it will give the patient a false sense of feeling better because it will make them sleep…when you’re sleep, you have no complaints. That is wrong to do that and inhumane IMO! Do you know what? I was put on Ambien because of 3 deaths in my family that happened very close together. My mother got cancer. We watched her tun into a skeleton. One of my sisters couldn’t handle her death and was prescribed benzos and AD. She “ dismissed herself” from this world a short time later ( you know what I mean). That was just before Thanksgiving that year. The next month on Xmas eve my cousin drowned while fishing before the snow arrived. Our family was in such a bad place. I had trouble sleeping ( who wouldn’t after all that! Plus in a bad marriage). A different doctor than the one who got me off it started me on Ambien . Never mentioned anything bad about it except a warning to have someone watch me for sleep driving. In which I never did that but I did sleep eat and other things while asleep. But I looked like I was fully awake. I was told ( because I did ask) that it was non habit forming, safe and when it’s time I can easily come off by simply stopping it. The doctor kept me on it every visit without even blinking…year after year. Now I’m paying the price when all he had to do was direct me to a grief counselor! 

@[La...] my own narrative is so like yours. I am so sorry to read of all this. I have another theory in that clinicians put us/keep us on these meds frequently without listening & moreover without appropriate diagnosis as a sort of general approach.
I was given benzo, z drug & others when I simply didn’t need them. It all got very confusing & then other labels were applied! We entrust ourselves to said clinicians at a time of distress/need/insomnia/anxiety etc only to be prescribed layers of meds and we are unable to process our grief. I sincerely wish you well. 

[[Nu...]]

10 hours ago, [[L...] said:

I’d have to agree about the ego taking precedence over 1st to do no harm. What I’ve seen time after time is some physicians who don’t know what’s wrong with a patient or knows but don’t know what the treatment should be, they diagnose anxiety/ stress and give medications to treat that because it will give the patient a false sense of feeling better because it will make them sleep…when you’re sleep, you have no complaints. That is wrong to do that and inhumane IMO! Do you know what? I was put on Ambien because of 3 deaths in my family that happened very close together. My mother got cancer. We watched her tun into a skeleton. One of my sisters couldn’t handle her death and was prescribed benzos and AD. She “ dismissed herself” from this world a short time later ( you know what I mean). That was just before Thanksgiving that year. The next month on Xmas eve my cousin drowned while fishing before the snow arrived. Our family was in such a bad place. I had trouble sleeping ( who wouldn’t after all that! Plus in a bad marriage). A different doctor than the one who got me off it started me on Ambien . Never mentioned anything bad about it except a warning to have someone watch me for sleep driving. In which I never did that but I did sleep eat and other things while asleep. But I looked like I was fully awake. I was told ( because I did ask) that it was non habit forming, safe and when it’s time I can easily come off by simply stopping it. The doctor kept me on it every visit without even blinking…year after year. Now I’m paying the price when all he had to do was direct me to a grief counselor! 

That is a very rough time. My heart goes out to you. Hope things get better for you over time...

[[ha...]]

I believe most doctors are aware of potential side effects, but they might prioritize treatment benefits. Denial to avoid legal responsibility seems unlikely. I visited several doctors, some of them were addressed via the press ganey customer service, and all seemed to understand what I was going through.

Edited April 18 by [ha...]

[[La...]]

On 16/04/2024 at 11:22, [[K...] said:

@[La...] my own narrative is so like yours. I am so sorry to read of all this. I have another theory in that clinicians put us/keep us on these meds frequently without listening & moreover without appropriate diagnosis as a sort of general approach.
I was given benzo, z drug & others when I simply didn’t need them. It all got very confusing & then other labels were applied! We entrust ourselves to said clinicians at a time of distress/need/insomnia/anxiety etc only to be prescribed layers of meds and we are unable to process our grief. I sincerely wish you well. 

This was very sweet of you! Thank you! Yes, they simply didn’t know what to do. Their pride got in the way so they threw us their general “ fix”. Sad but true! I’m sorry that you also have been injured by these drugs. I wish you a speedy healing and go on to live a healthy happy life. Big hugs. 

[[La...]]

18 hours ago, [[N...] said:

That is a very rough time. My heart goes out to you. Hope things get better for you over time...

I appreciate your kindness. I hope things get better for you as well. I don’t identify myself as a victim of doctors. I am a survivor! Everyday I wake up thanking the Almighty because he literally saved me! He was the one who told me what was wrong AND didn’t let them give me other experimental drugs. I’m so grateful! My heart goes out to all who are grossly polydrugged. 
hugs 

[[La...]]

2 hours ago, [[h...] said:

I believe most doctors are aware of potential side effects, but they might prioritize treatment benefits. Denial to avoid legal responsibility seems unlikely. 

Purposely deny. There’s no way after so long ago when Dr Ashton she’d light on it, that they don’t know. It’s been published many times….including the Lisa Ling recent program. On top of the massive amount of people all over the world that’s suffering from them. Some, like me, wasn’t on anything else so it was obvious what was making us so sick.