Re: Rivotril WD

[[55...]]

Hi,

 

I asked the Valium Support Group, but so far I haven't detected any experience yet of people switching from clonazepam to diazepam. I'm undecided on what to do. Does anyone know anything about it?

[[Br...]]

I'm sorry you didn't find answers on that support group thread.  I wish I had more answers for you.  Have you done a search?

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=251991.0

 

I did a quick search and found this thread - it's pretty recent: http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=274950.20 It might be helpful to look at posts by the poster who started that thread - the poster has posted a few times about crossing over from clonazepam to diazepam.

[[55...]]

Thank you, Brighterday.

 

For a few days now I've been having constant burning and numbing of the skin all over my body, including my face. Is this normal during withdrawal or will it last forever? I mean, is it possible for it to appear and disappear depending on the moments or will it stay constant if I keep tapering?

 

I am also very concerned about my symptoms of depression, anhedonia and distress. They are very strong, too much. I'm afraid I can't make it. Is it normal during tapering? Do they go away with the slow reduction, or should I expect them to increase?

 

[[Pa...]]

Hi 55clotap, all of your symptoms are normal for this process but miserable, that’s for sure.  Once you recover, they all leave, its amazing that something this painful and traumatic just disappears. 

 

It’s tough to say how your symptoms will progress, its different for everyone.  Some feel better as they taper to lower doses, others say their symptoms become more pronounced.  The only way out of this mess is through it, its hard to accept there isn’t an easier way to do this but this is all we have.

[[55...]]

Thank you, Pamster.

 

Always more often I have to lie in bed, unable to move - not even the muscles of the face - and with my head pounding. I don't even have the strength to raise a glass. Is this also normal? Please, tell me.

 

I understand that these symptoms are related to clonazepam, but I don't know if they are due to the process of taper or to the fact that I am continuing to take this very toxic drug. I'm only at 0,33 mg., the road is still very long, what can I do? I feel like throwing up just thinking about having to take that drug for so long again. How will it reduce me? Guys, I'm really exhausted.

[[Pa...]]

My goodness, what a miserable existence you’re living right now, I’m so sorry. 

 

Can we talk about your taper for a moment, I’m sure you’ve covered it all in the preceding pages but lets cover it again.  What is your concentration Rivotril and how long do you typically hold between reductions?

[[55...]]

As I wrote on my first post, I started to taper clonazepam on August 15, 2022. From that moment I continued, but it was a very terrible process becouse I suffer from trazodone WD too. My problem is that I feel I have no choice than pursueing, becouse Rivotril is strongly damaging me. There are a lot of symptoms that come from it and not from trazodone WD: weak and aching muscle of legs, difficulty speaking and coordinating movements, comatose depression, unbearable anxiety, panic attacks, strong derealization, worsening of sexual side effects, burning skin and so on. I suppose I reached the drug tolerance a long time ago.

 

The tapering process has been as follow (started from 0,7 mg. - 0,2 mg. at 10.00 and 0,5 mg. at 22.00):

 

August 15 - September 11, 2022 = -10% (from 0,7 to 0,63 mg. per day)

September 12 - October 9, 2022 = -1,6% (from 0,63 to 0,62 mg. per day) - I felt very sick after the first month of reduction

October 10 - November 6, 2022 = -6,5% (from 0,62 to 0,58 mg. per day)

November 7 - December 4, 2022 = -6,9% (from 0,58 to 0,54 mg. per day)

December 11, 2022 - January 1, 2023 = -3,7% (from 0,54 to 0,52 mg. per day) - Many days paralized in my bed

January 2 - January 29, 2023 = -4,8% (from 0,52 to 0,495 mg. per day)

January 30 - February 26, 2023 = -10,1% (from 0,495 to 0,445 mg. per day)

February 2027 - March 26, 2023 = -12,4% (from 0,445 to 0,39 mg. per day) - Strong agitation, breathlessness, anxiety, total weakness, flu symptoms, etc.

March 27 - April 23, 2023 = -5,1% (from 0,39 to 0,37 mg. per day)

April 24 - May 21, 2023 = -10,8% (from 0,37 to 0,33 mg. per day)

 

In all this period (August 15, 2022 - May 21, 2023) I reduced the morning dose of -85% (from 0,2 to 0,03 mg.) and the night dose of -40% (from 0,5 to 0,3 mg.). I was always sick, weak and agitated, with some very high peaks. It must be said that I have always had severe problems with clonazepam, since I started taking it at a regular dose and even more in all the period I have been tapering it, also when I did it only for 1,6% or 3,7% in a month. I've been in bed completely paralized several times in different period (expecially december, february and now). Some day I can go out, but the most of days I must stay at home in the morning or all the day. This drug has always had horrible side effects on my mind and body. I'm not human at the moment, only a very anxious and sick automaton.

 

What am I doing now? For a week, I have planned and started to reduce the night dose (I'm at 0,294 mg. now) of 0,001 mg. for six days, then hold for three days and the morning dose (0,028 mg. now) of 0,001 mg. every nine days (I want to eliminate it). This means a taper of 0,024 mg. per months and 0,0008 mg. per day. If even this is too much, I really don't know what to do anymore.

 

The problem is that, if I don't taper, I feel a lot of side effects from the drug and, at the same time, the tapering process causes or accentuates my paralizing anxiety, palpitations, breathlesness, mental confusion, derealization, depression and so on. A very terrible side is anhedonia. No pleasure or good emotions for anything. Recently I was often all the day in my bed, staring at the wall without any hope. It seems to me like a I had a strong brain injury from which it's really impossible to recover.

 

I'm using a graduated cylinder and dissolving the drops in water, mixing well before drinking. I reduced a lot the morning dose becouse it makes me very derealizated, but during days I'm very anxious and agitated. Many days I can't stand. After three months of taking clonazepam, I lost 18 kg. (from 68 to 50), all my fat mass and some muscle tonicity. I'm skeletal and can't exercise anymore, like before, otherwise I start shaking out of control. That's all for the moment. Thank you for your support, Pamster.

[[55...]]

Answering to one of your questions, in general I taper my doses weekly and don't stabilize a lot on the same level.

[[55...]]

Another things to consider should be to transfert the whole morning dose (0,028 at the moment) to the night and take the drug only once a day. In this case, should I gradually move it forward an hour a day, or can I move it to the night all in one day? What do you advice me? Thanks.

[[Pa...]]

Your situation overwhelms me, may I ask, have you ever held your dose a few weeks?  I didn’t taper but I’ve read its important to get somewhat stable in between reductions.  I know you said you suffer taking as well as reducing the drug but have you ever held for a long time?  I’ve read members say long holds have helped them get stable after a terrible time, then they can resume but they go slower.

[[55...]]

I brought back the nightly dose to 3,0 mg. (from 0,294 mg.) and I will try to eliminate the morning dose (0,028 mg. now). The problem is that I can do it only with a linear taper, taking off a microgram every ten or fifteen days. The dose seems to small to proceed with pecentage cuts.

 

I confess to be very, very discouraged. Since I started taking clonazepam (one year ago), there hasn't been a day that I have felt remotely near to be well. No windows, only a strong and long waves. Not only Rivotril makes me feel worse when I was taking it in regular doses, but it made me feel horrible during all my taper. I honestly have no hope of successfully completing the taper.

 

I'm looking for a technical answere: is it possible that my brain is so strongly addicted to this drug, to the point of becoming a slave to it? If to switch from 0,7 mg. to 0,328 mg. it's been so hard, how can I expect to successfully navigate the even more difficult phase ahead? I mean, it's like my body told me: stop the taper and accept to take it forever, feeling very sick and being unable to live.

 

Is there any moderator, admin or member who can give me an opinion?

 

 

[Guest [...]]

Hi 55clotap

 

What are your thoughts around holding? (Echoing Pamsters reply)

 

Have you tried this?

 

I can’t help but wonder if your symptoms aren’t being only intensified by panic associated impatience… continuing to taper when what you actually need is to just hold and allow your brain to find the balance it’s always searching for but simply can’t find because you are continually moving the goal posts… continually tapering… never allowing your brain to catch up because you are continually on the run all the time. Is there a fear that you couldn’t possibly stand still and wait out the storm with your symptoms the way they are?

 

Sometimes we have absolutely no choice but to just stand still (no matter how fearful and impatient) and allow the brain to catch up and find that balance it’s so desperately searching for…

 

Here’s a link to a post by SnelleJelle…. take particular note of observations around holding one’s dose to allow the brain to catch up, find balance, and eventually pave one’s way forward…

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=278659.msg3464544#msg3464544

 

 

[[55...]]

Winters sun and Pamster,

 

I believe that, in my case, the difficulties of tapering are amplified by my previous rapid intakes and discontinuations of drugs. My system is so sensitized that any little change causes a kindling. Then, as I said, I have another problem: I have always had severe side effects with clonazepam, since I started taking it at a regular dose (0,2 mg. in the morning and 0,7 mg. in the night). It made me feel strongly depressed, derealizated, sometime anxious (paradoxical reaction), fatigued and without any positive emotion or interest. Most importantly, it has drastically worsened my pudendal neuropathy and sexual dysfunctions. Certainly, there is also a component of impatience and panic, becouse for me, psychologically, it is very hard to accept continuing to poison my mind and body.

 

You and Pamster are correctly advicing me to allow my brain to find its balance, stopping my taper for a certain period. I've read, however, that many people do this, but still get very sick as long as they're on the drug. What do you think about it? Could I be one of them?

 

Another question: Boges suggested me to try the pharmacological compound, because she believes that the dosages become more precise than the mix between drops and water with my graduated cylinder. Can you tell me how it works? I mean, what am I supposed to tell the pharmacy to do? I'm in Italy, I don't know if I can find one.

[[Pa...]]

The team has been discussing your situation 55clotap, and while we agree giving your body time is typically useful advice we’re just not sure its in your best interest.  We have another member who was on both Clonazepam and Xanax and advised they discontinue the Xanax first because of the short half life, they didn’t, they chose to come off of the Clonazepam and come to find out, it was the Clonazepam that was making them feel so bad.  They’re doing great now that they’re tapering the Xanax.

 

I’m a little unclear about your question, do you currently make your own suspension and you’re considering asking for the liquid option offered by the pharmaceutical company?

 

Another thought, would you consider crossing over to another benzodiazepine?

 

 

 

 

[[55...]]

Hi Pamster,

 

so what do you recommend? To continue with the taper of clonazepam and then replace it with another benzodiazepine? I think the only possible one would be Valium, correct? I had already considered this hypothesis in my thread. I wrote, as I said, that Rivotril made me sick from the first moment I took it and it has drastically worsened my pudendal neuropathy. I believe this can depend from the modulation that only clonazepam, among the benzodiazepines, makes on the serotonin receptors (5HT1), as some studies show. I also have difficulty in reducing the drops of this drug down to very small doses (for example, 0,001 mg.). As you know, clonazepam is very potent and concentrated. it's taper is giving me a lot of symptoms and every day I can feel the underlying signs of akathisia, agitation and panic. I'm also very confused, depressed and derealizated,

 

However, at the same time, I'm really scared to mess my brain again with another change of drug, considering the high level of dysregulation of my CNS. So I don't know if switching to Valium can be a good idea. I've read that diazepam can also have severely depressive and sedative side effects and I fear its introduction does not protect me from the dangerous side effects of stopping or reducing clonazepam in some week. Perhaps, at the same time, diazepam shows the advantage of being easier to scale and not hitting the sexual sphere as hard as Rivotril. I’m really confused and don’t know what to do.

 

I don't know what the cases of switching to Valium (Ashton manual) are on Benzo Buddies. I tried to have some advice in Valium Support Groups, but every experience is personal. I have seen, on other forums, that some people are successful with the switch to diazepam, others are worse off. It’s not easy to cross from clonazepam to diazepam. They are both benzos, but acts with a different intensity on the GABA receptors. I think that, may be, the side effects of Valium could be minor, but who can be sure? I wouldn’t like to deceive myself and mess around again, doing worse than now. I need just an opinion or advice. Are there other benzodiazepine alternatives?

 

Regarding the pharmaceutical compound, I simply cannot figure out what it is. I am currently putting the clonazepam drops into a graduated cylinder, mix it with water and squeeze out the excess. They tell me that this method may not be accurate, but I don't understand what the pharmacy can do. Dilute the drug more? Could you explain it to me?

 

[Guest [...]]

Hi Pamster,

 

so what do you recommend? To continue with the taper of clonazepam and then replace it with another benzodiazepine? I think the only possible one would be Valium, correct? I had already considered this hypothesis in my thread. I wrote, as I said, that Rivotril made me sick from the first moment I took it and it has drastically worsened my pudendal neuropathy. I believe this can depend from the modulation that only clonazepam, among the benzodiazepines, makes on the serotonin receptors (5HT1), as some studies show. I also have difficulty in reducing the drops of this drug down to very small doses (for example, 0,001 mg.). As you know, clonazepam is very potent and concentrated. it's taper is giving me a lot of symptoms and every day I can feel the underlying signs of akathisia, agitation and panic. I'm also very confused, depressed and derealizated,

 

However, at the same time, I'm really scared to mess my brain again with another change of drug, considering the high level of dysregulation of my CNS. So I don't know if switching to Valium can be a good idea. I've read that diazepam can also have severely depressive and sedative side effects and I fear its introduction does not protect me from the dangerous side effects of stopping or reducing clonazepam in some week. Perhaps, at the same time, diazepam shows the advantage of being easier to scale and not hitting the sexual sphere as hard as Rivotril. I’m really confused and don’t know what to do.

 

I don't know what the cases of switching to Valium (Ashton manual) are on Benzo Buddies. I tried to have some advice in Valium Support Groups, but every experience is personal. I have seen, on other forums, that some people are successful with the switch to diazepam, others are worse off. It’s not easy to cross from clonazepam to diazepam. They are both benzos, but acts with a different intensity on the GABA receptors. I think that, may be, the side effects of Valium could be minor, but who can be sure? I wouldn’t like to deceive myself and mess around again, doing worse than now. I need just an opinion or advice. Are there other benzodiazepine alternatives?

 

Regarding the pharmaceutical compound, I simply cannot figure out what it is. I am currently putting the clonazepam drops into a graduated cylinder, mix it with water and squeeze out the excess. They tell me that this method may not be accurate, but I don't understand what the pharmacy can do. Dilute the drug more? Could you explain it to me?

 

Hi 55clotap

 

I had success switching to diazepam, and although it wasn’t without its difficulties, I am actually glad I made the switch. I understand your apprehension to make a switch or crossover whilst feeling so unstable, however, I guess you have to look at the adverse reactions you seem to have had from day one with the clonazepam and ask yourself whether or not a crossover to a benzo your body doesn’t outrightly reject would be the right course of action for you. You would obviously still go through a period of adjustment… withdrawal from the clonazepam whilst acclimating to the diazepam, and you would just have to push your way through this period. That being said… we don’t know how difficult that crossover would be… it may not be too bad at all… you may find that getting the clonazepam out of your system has more of a positive affect… outweighing any adverse affects associated with acclimating to the diazepam, or it may not. I guess one wouldn’t normally entertain a crossover to diazepam from your 0.33mg dose, as it’s relatively low, but going by your claim that your body has never tolerated the clonazepam from day one, I suppose it does seem like a legitimate option. If you chose this option, I imagine you would cross to somewhere around 5mg diazepam.

 

In regard to pharmaceutical clonazepam liquid and suspensions…  if you post on the substitution board at the below link… someone will provide you with the detail you’re looking for. 

 

Planning Your Withdrawal (Taper)

[[Li...]]

Regarding the pharmaceutical compound, I simply cannot figure out what it is. I am currently putting the clonazepam drops into a graduated cylinder, mix it with water and squeeze out the excess. They tell me that this method may not be accurate, but I don't understand what the pharmacy can do. Dilute the drug more? Could you explain it to me?

 

Hello, 55clotap.

 

Am I understanding correctly that you are using the Rivotril 2.5mg/mL oral solution? If so, we have multiple members who have used this to taper successfully.  To achieve the smaller doses required for tapering, they dilute the solution with water (although we do not know the properties of the resulting liquid -  it seems to be ‘accurate enough’).

 

Another option to consider for dilution would be whole fat, homogenized milk (clonazepam is lipophilic). If memory serves, we also may have a member whose pharmacist is diluting the drops for her; I don’t know the details but the pharmacist may be using more of the base solvent - propylene glycol (if this is indeed the case, a potential downside is that this could result in the ingestion of largish amounts of propylene glycol on a daily basis over a lengthy period of time).

 

To help you, we need know the gear you use and the steps you follow to prepare and measure your liquid.

 

For example:

 

- What is the capacity of the cylinder? 

- What are you using to measure the liquid?  The 1 drop = 0.1mg clonazepam dropper that was supplied with the medication or another device?  If another device, how many milligrams of drug are contained in each drop?

- How many drops do you place in the cylinder? 

- How much water do you add? 

- What do you mean by ‘squeeze out the excess’?  Do you measure and discard a portion of the mixture?  Or do you measure and ingest a portion of the liquid?  How many milliliters do you remove or ingest?  What device do you use to measure these amounts?

- Do you shake or stir the drop/water mixture well before you measure the reduction/dose?

- Do you make a fresh batch of the drop/water mixture each day or do you make enough for several days? If the latter, how many days do you store the liquid?

 

[[55...]]

Thank you very much, Libertas.

- I use a graduated glass cylinder with a capacity of 100 ml.

- To measure the liquid, I use the dropper supplied with the medication (1 drop = 0,1 mg.)

- At 10.00 I'm going to take 0,0267 mg. So I place one drop into 60 ml. of water, I mix well the liquid with a small glass bar, then I remove and throw away 44 ml. with a graduated glass pipette and, in the end, I drink 16 ml.

- At 22.00, in this moment, I take 3 drops in a glass. Before, when I was taking, for example, 0,31 mg., I placed 4 drops into 40 ml. of water and removed 9 ml., ingesting 31 ml.

- If I have to reduce 0,001 mg. from 0,1 mg., I place one drop into 100 ml. of water and then, after having mixed, I remove only 1 ml. and drink 99 ml.

- Generally, I make a fresh batch of the drop/water mixture each day. Rarely, if I am out of home, I prepare the solution into a little glass container.

I don't know how much this method can be considered precise.

Now I'm considering to move all the dose in the night, gradually shifting the 0,0267 mg. intake by one hour per day. I hope I don't suffer from interdose side effects.

 

 

[[Li...]]

The technique you are using is a little complicated, but your math checks out.

 

Can you tell us more about why you think the technique you are using cannot be considered precise?  Are you concerned that the doses you are measuring may not be accurate? Or are you concerned about your ability to consistently reproduce the measurements required?

 

Re: moving your 0.0267mg dose to the night …

 

That’s a very small dose.  Do you feel it is having any therapeutic effect?  If not, then you will probably be ok moving it to night.  The only way to know is to try.  A benefit of doing this would be that you could simplify your technique.  Instead of making two batches of liquid a day with two different concentrations, you could make one batch with the same concentration each time (e.g. 0.01mg/mL - 1 drop in 10mL of water or even 0.001mg/mL - 1 drop in 100mL of water).  Simplifying your technique would also increase the likelihood of obtaining precise (consistent) measurements.

 

 

[[55...]]

Why is the technique I’m using complicated? What could I do differently?

 

I think the technique I’m using couldn’t be considered precise becouse the user Boges11 pointed it out to me that the home brew water method at home could be a lot less accurate from a compounded liquid made up at pharmacy. The problem is that I still don't understand what the pharmaceutical compound is. A liquid with an higher dilution? I mean, for example, one drop of clonazepam equal to 0.05 mg. instead of 0.1 mg.?

 

I am convinced that clonazepam is the worst benzo to take and taper. What do you think about it?

 

I have many, many side effects from it. Many people tell me to slow down the taper, but I feel very ill even when I reduce just a little quantity or remain stable. I’ve read on BIC (Benzo Information Coalition) that Klonopin has the most part of adverse reactions in the community harmed by benzodiazepines. Is it true?

 

Clonazepam withdrawal symptoms also increase markedly with drug accumulation, also due to the action of its inactive metabolites. I have often thought to substitute Rivotril with Valium, but I’ve read that clonazepam binds much more tightly than any other benzo to the central benzodiazepine receptor. So every change of this drug can lead to severe withdrawal, if it is substituted for another benzodiazepine. What do you think about it?

 

[[55...]]

I've been having severe daytime withdrawal symptoms for the past few weeks. Over time I reduced the morning dose to almost zero and I fear I am in a full interdose crisis. Do these interdose symptoms go away over time, or should I keep them until I go back to a higher dosage? And If I restore a part of the dosage, don't I run the risk of a further kindling with worse effects?  Right now I can't breathe, my skin burns everywhere and I'm very anxious, trembling and contract in all my body. What do you recommend?

[[Li...]]

Why is the technique I’m using complicated? What could I do differently?

 

I think the technique I’m using couldn’t be considered precise becouse the user Boges11 pointed it out to me that the home brew water method at home could be a lot less accurate from a compounded liquid made up at pharmacy. The problem is that I still don't understand what the pharmaceutical compound is. A liquid with an higher dilution? I mean, for example, one drop of clonazepam equal to 0.05 mg. instead of 0.1 mg.?

 

I am convinced that clonazepam is the worst benzo to take and taper. What do you think about it?

 

I have many, many side effects from it. Many people tell me to slow down the taper, but I feel very ill even when I reduce just a little quantity or remain stable. I’ve read on BIC (Benzo Information Coalition) that Klonopin has the most part of adverse reactions in the community harmed by benzodiazepines. Is it true?

 

Clonazepam withdrawal symptoms also increase markedly with drug accumulation, also due to the action of its inactive metabolites. I have often thought to substitute Rivotril with Valium, but I’ve read that clonazepam binds much more tightly than any other benzo to the central benzodiazepine receptor. So every change of this drug can lead to severe withdrawal, if it is substituted for another benzodiazepine. What do you think about it?

 

As I noted in my previous post, making two different batches of liquids with two different concentrations is more complicated than making one batch of liquid with the same concentration.

 

My guess is that Boges11 was referring to the accuracy of a do-it-yourself (DIY) liquid made with water and regular clonazepam tablets as the drug source (i.e. the clonazepam is embedded along with other ingredients in dry, powder form). You are using a different drug source for your DIY liquid —  the commercially manufactured oral solution (i.e. the clonazepam has been dissolved in a solvent and is already in liquid form). 

 

To our knowledge, neither of the above DIY liquids has been professionally analyzed so we do not know their properties. However, it seems reasonable to speculate that your DIY liquid would yield more accurate doses because at least some of the drug would remain in solution after dilution.  In contrast, most of the drug in DIY liquids made with clonazepam tablets and water does not go into solution (clonazepam is practically insoluble in water) and instead is held (temporarily) in suspension. Generally speaking, solutions yield more accurate doses than suspensions.

 

Re: the compounded liquid Boges11 is using … my understanding is that it is made with bulk powder (i.e. the pure active drug substance) as the drug source and a suspending vehicle.  I do not know if it has been professionally analyzed.  However, it has clearly proven itself to be ‘accurate enough’ for Boges11.

 

Re: your other questions … I will defer to other members to address these.

[Guest [...]]

I've been having severe daytime withdrawal symptoms for the past few weeks. Over time I reduced the morning dose to almost zero and I fear I am in a full interdose crisis. Do these interdose symptoms go away over time, or should I keep them until I go back to a higher dosage? And If I restore a part of the dosage, don't I run the risk of a further kindling with worse effects?  Right now I can't breathe, my skin burns everywhere and I'm very anxious, trembling and contract in all my body. What do you recommend?

 

Hi 55clotap

 

Are you saying you’re thinking of up-dosing?

 

I’m concerned… as I know you’ve expressed your body has basically rejected the clonazepam right from day 1, and in such a case… I’m not sure up-dosing the clonazepam is the answer for you.

 

I’ve been back over this thread to see if anything stands out… and one thing I noticed is that you seem to be second guessing yourself and jumping around a bit as the thread has progressed. This is to be expected in BW, especially when your symptoms are so intense, and I remember doing it myself early on.

 

A couple of times you’ve been toying with the idea of whether to transfer your remaining dose over to your evening dose or not… but you also seem to be very concerned about intense inter-dose withdrawals throughout your day which would seem to suggest that dosing only once per day may not serve you. Libertas makes a good point about how dosing once per day would most likely increase the accuracy of your dose… but, can you get away with dosing once per day?… given how you say you seem to be experiencing intense inter-dose withdrawal throughout the day?

 

I’m really just trying to talk our way through this thread to see what we can be sure about… and what we can’t… to help you make the best educated guess about what option or decision is right for you.

 

These are the questions that keep coming up for me…

 

1) If you’re body has always been rejecting the clonazepam from the beginning… then, what percentage of your symptom profile right here and now can be attributed to your body’s original rejection of the clonazepam, and what percentage is the result of your taper… the continual reduction withdrawals?

 

2) If you could go back to when you first began the clonazepam and experience just the symptoms you had back then…. would they be any less intense than the symptoms you are experiencing right now after tapering and almost wiping out your morning dose? I ask this question because we tend to not only become conditioned to symptoms over a period of time, but we also condition to them as they increase in intensity, until one day they become so intense that we hit a wall because there’s only so much one can become conditioned to before it just becomes too much to bear. We reach a crisis point where something has to change, but often we are so weary and confused about what’s going on that we can’t see what’s real and what’s not. I wonder if you could actually go back in time (after potentially experiencing these even more intensified symptoms through tapering) whether you would re-experience those earlier symptoms as less intense and more manageable than you originally experienced them?

 

3) Have you just tapered too fast, based on the taper schedule and percentages you provided earlier in the thread which included a 10%, 10.1%, 10.8%, and a 12.4% reduction?

 

4) Is it intense inter-dose withdrawals that have created an even deeper level of suffering that now has you stuck? Would it have been different if you had tapered across both doses evenly, rather than almost wiping out that entire morning dose?

 

5) If you could find a way to alleviate the inter-dose withdrawals and decompress from the accumulative toll both your taper and inter-dose withdrawals have taken on you, would you then be able to move forward with your taper regardless of your body’s original rejection of the medication, or would you be better off crossing to the longer half life diazepam for the remainder off your taper. The diazepam really only comes to the fore if you are completely sure that your body does not tolerate the clonazepam and does indeed result in paradoxical type symptoms. Only you can know this, but are you sure?

 

6) One question that does arise because of No.5 is this - If you are having particularly rough days because of inter-dose withdrawals… this suggests that you do experience some decrease in symptoms after your nightly dose… rather than a clear paradoxical type reaction. If you are indeed experiencing inter-dose withdrawals, then that nightly dose probably won’t be as affective because your blood serum level is dropping throughout the day, so, although the nightly dose may alleviate your symptoms for a time, how long will it keep your blood serum level above that therapeutic level before symptoms begin to creep back in?

 

As I said… I’m just posing questions that come to mind as I’m reading over this thread, without really knowing if any of it will be helpful to you. I’m just hoping that (in your confused state), it offers at least something from which you can work towards making the best decision for yourself.

 

WS

 

 

 

[Guest [...]]

Hi 55clotap

 

Just wanted to check if I’m reading your signature correctly… you were on Trazodone for 3 weeks feb 26, 2022 - 19 march, 2022?

[[55...]]

Hi WinterSun,

 

thank you for your interest and support. I try to answere to all your questions.

 

«Are you saying you’re thinking of up-dosing?»

 

No, I was just asking for advice. Today, anyway, I slightly raised the morning dose from 0.0267 mg. to 0.03 mg., but I will keep the night dose steady at 0.3.

 

«Can you get away with dosing once per day? Given how you say you seem to be experiencing intense inter-dose withdrawal throughout the day»

 

Yes, I think you're right. I was asking opinions about it. I have constant problems with restlessness and shortness of breath from morning onwards and, more and more often, I have to spend my days in bed becouse I can’t stand up.

 

«If you’re body has always been rejecting the clonazepam from the beginning… then, what percentage of your symptom profile right here and now can be attributed to your body’s original rejection of the clonazepam, and what percentage is the result of your taper… the continual reduction withdrawals?»

 

It’s difficult to understand. I can say that, from the beginning, clonazepam produced the following side effects on my mind and body: strong depression, derealization, weight loss, aching muscle of legs, dysarthria, fatigue and difficulty in coordinating movements. It was also not really effective in reducing the trazodone acute withdrawal symptoms (insomnia, extreme anxiety attacks, agitation, akathisia, fasciculations, etc.), indeed, it often produced paradoxical effects. For example, I felt sleepy at night, but felt more agitated after taking clonazepam. Many times, after the morning dose, my anxiety levels increased instead of decreasing. Then I decided to start tapering (August, 2022).

 

«If you could go back to when you first began the clonazepam and experience just the symptoms you had back then…. would they be any less intense than the symptoms you are experiencing right now after tapering and almost wiping out your morning dose?»

 

Derealization, dysarthria and weight loss are the same, while a wide range of symptoms worsened or added as I progressed with the tapering:

- strong and comatose depression;

- constant shortness of breath, breathlessness and cardiac palpitations;

- fatigue, weakness, shaking legs and difficulty to move;

- strong anxiety and distress for no reasons;

- total anhedonia and impossibility to feel joy, interests and positive emotions, just like to have a lobotomy;

- mental confusion, disconnected thoughts, memory and concentration difficulties;

- headhache and flu-like symptoms;

- burning, tingling and pins and needles in all my skin, also face;

- tinnitus;

- hypersensitivity to sunlight and rumors;

- loss of smell and emotions from good smells;

- total loss of libido;

- pain in the pudendal nerve and genital’s atrophy.

 

«If you could actually go back in time (after potentially experiencing these even more intensified symptoms through tapering), would you re-experience those earlier symptoms as less intense and more manageable than you originally experienced them?»

 

Yes, the situation is now worse. I regretted taking clonazepam. He greatly aggravated the picture. And you’re right: I reach a crisis point where something has to change, but I am so weary and confused about what’s going on that I don’t know what to do.

 

«Have you just tapered too fast, based on the taper schedule and percentages you provided earlier in the thread which included a 10%, 10.1%, 10.8%, and a 12.4% reduction?»

 

Yes, probably. I wanted to get free from the side effects of clonazepam. Consider, however, that I've never been well with Rivotril, even when I was taking it regularly and over the months when I was tapering only a little. Now, however, I reached a crisis point.

 

«Is it intense inter-dose withdrawals that have created an even deeper level of suffering that now has you stuck? Would it have been different if you had tapered across both doses evenly, rather than almost wiping out that entire morning dose?»

 

I'm starting to think so, but I'm not completely sure. In the morning, I initially took less than half of the night dose. Certainly the shortness of breath and pin pricks in the body came only after starting the reduction of the overall dosage.

 

«If you could find a way to alleviate the inter-dose withdrawals and decompress from the accumulative toll both your taper and inter-dose withdrawals have taken on you, would you then be able to move forward with your taper regardless of your body’s original rejection of the medication, or would you be better off crossing to the longer half life diazepam for the remainder off your taper. The diazepam really only comes to the fore if you are completely sure that your body does not tolerate the clonazepam and does indeed result in paradoxical type symptoms. Only you can know this, but are you sure?»

 

As I wrote, I had a lot of side effects from clonazepam, may be becouse my CNS was highly hyper-sensitive to any drug. I am convinced that clonazepam is the worst benzo to take and taper. I have many, many side effects from it. I’ve read on BIC (Benzo Information Coalition) that Klonopin has the most part of adverse reactions in the community harmed by benzodiazepines. As I said, I felt ill even when I reduce just a little quantity or remain stable.

The problem is that Clonazepam withdrawal symptoms increase markedly with drug accumulation, also due to the action of its inactive metabolites. I have often thought to substitute Rivotril with Valium, but I’ve read that clonazepam binds much more tightly than any other benzo to the central benzodiazepine receptor. So every change of this drug can lead to severe withdrawal, if it is substituted for another benzodiazepine. You were also on clonazepam, but only for 19 days. I think that, for me, the risk of adverse reactions when going to Valium can be stronger. I’m scared and confused. Perhaps diazepam has the advantage of having a longer half-life and can save me the morning dose, but I have read that it can be very depressant and sedative.

 

«If you are indeed experiencing inter-dose withdrawals, then that nightly dose probably won’t be as affective because your blood serum level is dropping throughout the day, so, although the nightly dose may alleviate your symptoms for a time, how long will it keep your blood serum level above that therapeutic level before symptoms begin to creep back in?»

 

You are right, it is happening that the night dose no longer guarantees me a decent sleep and does not completely reduce my skin burning and heartbeat. It works less than before, also because I'm very tense during the day. Then all my symptoms, every morning untill the night, accentuated again.

 

«Were you on Trazodone for 3 weeks feb 26, 2022 - 19 march, 2022?»

 

Yes, just for three weeks, but it was enough to reactivate all the underlying instability that stemmed from adverse drug reactions of fifteen years ago. I felt better after testosterone, but had never fully recovered and was suffering from PFS and PSSD. My clinical picture is truly desperate.