Measuring Cylinders, Spreadsheet for Water Titration tracking

[[Ke...]]

I feel your pain, I mean, I think I do, but I've read so many things trying to figure it all out.  Some good things I've found is this link.  Just a ways down in the Q&A there's a video you might like looking at where the question is about accuracy. I'm sorry that I can't answer more of your questions because I'm just too new to this myself:

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=231363.0

 

OregonLady:  I am stuck using a 5mg valium pill for 15-16mg/day, using a pill cutter to cut it into inaccurate sizes of 1 or 2mg for now. I have already asked the doc to exchange the 5mg script for a 1mg script - same amount.  That equates to over 300 valium ills of 1mg size.  Can you imagine the pharmacy getting that script order.  It's a mind game - same dose - but that BIG number of 300 must have given the doc 2nd thoughts. 

 

Using 5mg size until I get to 10mg/day is not that  much of an issue for precision, but under 10mg/day definitely does.

 

[[or...]]

I don't know about your tablets, but mine don't even have a "line" so you can cut them more even if you wanted to.  I think it is a mind game to keep us from weaning off. But, I think the post I read somewhere the lady was doing very well with a one-edge razor blade and cutting with that.  The problem is "cutting" our small doses, they crumble right??

[[Ke...]]

I don't know about your tablets, but mine don't even have a "line" so you can cut them more even if you wanted to.  I think it is a mind game to keep us from weaning off. But, I think the post I read somewhere the lady was doing very well with a one-edge razor blade and cutting with that.  The problem is "cutting" our small doses, they crumble right??

 

yes - the 5mg and I think the 1mg re scored down the middle.  Even using the brand name drug store pill cutter designed to split pills using a sharp razor blade, all I can do is to try to line up the score line in the pill with the blade and press.  There still remains an error margin of perhaps .5mg.

 

When I try to cut the split 5mg pieces (2.5mg?) that no longer have a score line, I am just cutting blindly. The little chip left could be a 1mg - give or take. 

 

This is not important at my high dose, but when i get down under the 1mg mark - it is going to either be based on cutting a 1mg pill, or requesting an oral solution which is easier to reduce with a syringe marker.  I'm not a big fan on tossing out unused drug portions, so I prefer the DuPont method of using a jar, removing a certain amount, then replacing that same amount with water, thereby diluting the entire solution each day.

 

The question then is - how long can this solution remain in storage - the fridge before needing to be tossed out.  I'm at 15-16mg right now, so that problem resolution is for the future. 

 

[[or...]]

I don't know about your tablets, but mine don't even have a "line" so you can cut them more even if you wanted to.  I think it is a mind game to keep us from weaning off. But, I think the post I read somewhere the lady was doing very well with a one-edge razor blade and cutting with that.  The problem is "cutting" our small doses, they crumble right??

 

yes - the 5mg and I think the 1mg re scored down the middle.  Even using the brand name drug store pill cutter designed to split pills using a sharp razor blade, all I can do is to try to line up the score line in the pill with the blade and press.  There still remains an error margin of perhaps .5mg.

 

When I try to cut the split 5mg pieces (2.5mg?) that no longer have a score line, I am just cutting blindly. The little chip left could be a 1mg - give or take. 

 

This is not important at my high dose, but when i get down under the 1mg mark - it is going to either be based on cutting a 1mg pill, or requesting an oral solution which is easier to reduce with a syringe marker.  I'm not a big fan on tossing out unused drug portions, so I prefer the DuPont method of using a jar, removing a certain amount, then replacing that same amount with water, thereby diluting the entire solution each day.

 

The question then is - how long can this solution remain in storage - the fridge before needing to be tossed out.  I'm at 15-16mg right now, so that problem resolution is for the future.

 

Someone said in my travels on the "internet highway", that solutions we make ourselves last a couple of days.  I don't trust that info, not without asking the pharmacy.  This is all giving me higher anxiety as I can't seem to get the correct info, or at best, mixed info.  It really is like shooting in the dark.  Then someone comes along and says how simple it is, and that doesn't set well with me at all since even my Mathmatics classes were easy, at one time, but after a 35 year run on this pill, my brain doesn't find anything so simple anymore.

 

My 1 mg clonazapam (generic brand) are not scored so I actually was snapping them in half, then snap one of the halves with my thumbnails.  Who knew, not me that's for sure.  No telling if I am even on .75 mg since March 25   If I live I'll learn right    I really must be OCD even though I've not been diagnosed with it, good thing because I'd call bs on it, for me anyway, now that I know what benzos really do for me.

 

Back to tapering though because it has to be done for me to be rid of this stuff.  I can dry cut for another 2 weeks, I don't think I'll need a month more on .75 mg but if I do, I'll hold for a month.  Then it's going to be something around a .03 cut and that's supposed to be daily for the Daily Micro Cut.  How to get the .03 is the question if I only want to go super slow, which I think is necessary.  I'm on edge most of the time, doesn't take much of anything to raise my anxiety/temper/anger/tears/tremors.  Funny I thought that was all just normal.  People would tell me they felt the same sometimes and I kind of doubt it unless they're on benzos too :'(   Those smiley faces fit just a few of my moods 

[[Ke...]]

I don't know about your tablets, but mine don't even have a "line" so you can cut them more even if you wanted to.  I think it is a mind game to keep us from weaning off. But, I think the post I read somewhere the lady was doing very well with a one-edge razor blade and cutting with that.  The problem is "cutting" our small doses, they crumble right??

 

yes - the 5mg and I think the 1mg re scored down the middle.  Even using the brand name drug store pill cutter designed to split pills using a sharp razor blade, all I can do is to try to line up the score line in the pill with the blade and press.  There still remains an error margin of perhaps .5mg.

 

When I try to cut the split 5mg pieces (2.5mg?) that no longer have a score line, I am just cutting blindly. The little chip left could be a 1mg - give or take. 

 

This is not important at my high dose, but when i get down under the 1mg mark - it is going to either be based on cutting a 1mg pill, or requesting an oral solution which is easier to reduce with a syringe marker.  I'm not a big fan on tossing out unused drug portions, so I prefer the DuPont method of using a jar, removing a certain amount, then replacing that same amount with water, thereby diluting the entire solution each day.

 

The question then is - how long can this solution remain in storage - the fridge before needing to be tossed out.  I'm at 15-16mg right now, so that problem resolution is for the future.

 

Someone said in my travels on the "internet highway", that solutions we make ourselves last a couple of days.  I don't trust that info, not without asking the pharmacy.  This is all giving me higher anxiety as I can't seem to get the correct info, or at best, mixed info.  It really is like shooting in the dark.  Then someone comes along and says how simple it is, and that doesn't set well with me at all since even my Mathmatics classes were easy, at one time, but after a 35 year run on this pill, my brain doesn't find anything so simple anymore.

 

My 1 mg clonazapam (generic brand) are not scored so I actually was snapping them in half, then snap one of the halves with my thumbnails.  Who knew, not me that's for sure.  No telling if I am even on .75 mg since March 25   If I live I'll learn right    I really must be OCD even though I've not been diagnosed with it, good thing because I'd call bs on it, for me anyway, now that I know what benzos really do for me.

 

Back to tapering though because it has to be done for me to be rid of this stuff.  I can dry cut for another 2 weeks, I don't think I'll need a month more on .75 mg but if I do, I'll hold for a month.  Then it's going to be something around a .03 cut and that's supposed to be daily for the Daily Micro Cut.  How to get the .03 is the question if I only want to go super slow, which I think is necessary.  I'm on edge most of the time, doesn't take much of anything to raise my anxiety/temper/anger/tears/tremors.  Funny I thought that was all just normal.  People would tell me they felt the same sometimes and I kind of doubt it unless they're on benzos too :'(   Those smiley faces fit just a few of my moods 

 

OREGON LADY:

read this online book, or download the PDF:  "THE BENZO BOOK"  https://www.thebenzobook.com/

Has material on liquid tapering.

[[or...]]

I'll take a look and thank you, but I am almost turning to a scale of some sort that can weigh powders accurately or at least as accurate as the water-taper.  But yes, I'll go look at your link KW, Denise

 

[[Ke...]]

I'll take a look and thank you, but I am almost turning to a scale of some sort that can weigh powders accurately or at least as accurate as the water-taper.  But yes, I'll go look at your link KW, Denise

I went to my medicare health care plan website to do online drug availability, size, dose, price, coverage,etc.

 

My own specific plan offers Clonazepam on in pill form ranging from 0.125 "ODT"(?) and tablet to 2mg. No liquid oral solution.

 

However for Diazepam the options are more varied:

10,5,2mg tablets - Injection doses, Rectal Gel (), and liquid oral forms of 5mg/5ml solution to 5mg/ml 'CON'(?), 5mg/ml 'MDV', and 5mg/ml 'INTENSOL CON'(?).

 

I only get the tablet sizes and the liquid oral solution of 5mg/5ml solution. 

 

No idea what INTENSOL, MDV, CON are.  Injection (no thanks) and that RECTAL GEL I get too, no thanks.

 

I plan on exploring the 5mg/5ml solution once I get to a low dose.  I am covered by insurance, but need the doc for the script.

5mg in a 5ml liquid is the same as 1mg pulled out in 1ml with a marked syringe - which is the same as a 1mg tablet unfortunately.

 

When the dose gets down to the MICRO taper, the math and precise measurements get a little tricky.

 

 

 

[[Ke...]]

I'll take a look and thank you, but I am almost turning to a scale of some sort that can weigh powders accurately or at least as accurate as the water-taper.  But yes, I'll go look at your link KW, Denise

 

I think the benzo book goes into some detail with the author's own micro-tapering experience.  Very informative reading, and free.

Take care.

 

[[or...]]

Yes, the numbers are really stressful for me to deal with and honestly got such good grades when I took a Math class in or around 2012.  I had terrible "test anxiety" though, shook so bad I couldn't do my test, couldn't figure or write out the answers.  I was allowed to take tests from home when they found out, just used my laptop and the tests were online.

 

Anyway, I did read a wonderful reply from Slowandsteady who explained about the numbers done as percentages, or linear.  I didn't know anything about the difference or even what linear meant.  I had asked SAS what it all meant and they said that with percentages you can't get down to your zero amount dose (jump off point) but with linear you can.  I'll paste in his reply to me because I was only paraphrasing.  You may know all about this already, but might help others to figure their plans out or, figure as they go which is what I'll do.  Here's his reply:

 

Hi Denise,

I am glad you asked. There are two ways to calculate a reduction, as you mentioned one is percentage-based (aka logarithmic) and the other is quantity-based (aka linear). Logarithmic and linear describe the shape of the graph they produce (see my recent blog update here for a picture of a logarithmic reduction over 26mo); but I find those two terms confusing, so I just say percent-based or quantity-based.

 

A percent-based reduction is when the reduction is calculated as a percentage of the current total daily dose. Because the current total daily dose decreased, the amount removed with each cut also decreases (not to be confused with calculating a % of the starting dose as a quantity and just removing this same quantity over and over again, which would be quantity-based) . A percent-based reduction is generally preferred because it has more consistent symptomatic intensity than a quantity-based reduction, but a % reduction never reaches zero and gets very very slow at the end. If you read my recent blog post you'll see that I've done percent-based from 2mg/day to 0.125mg/day and now I'm switching to quantity-based to get to zero.

 

A quantity-based reduction is when the reduction is calculated as a specific quantity of medication, regardless of the current total daily dose. This could be calculated from an initial percent, or could be limited to the measuring equipment available, or just work out to be the right amount for the cutting strategy and individual. For example I'm going to be reducing by 0.01-0.02mL of my 0.0625mg/mL liquid per day, as tolerated.

 

I hope this helps clarify the difference. I did not look for Jellybeans post. Let me know if you have more questions. 

[[or...]]

I'll take a look and thank you, but I am almost turning to a scale of some sort that can weigh powders accurately or at least as accurate as the water-taper.  But yes, I'll go look at your link KW, Denise

 

I think the benzo book goes into some detail with the author's own micro-tapering experience.  Very informative reading, and free.

Take care.

 

I saved the book to my desktop KW but only looked at the index so far.  I just can't focus but do you remember what part talks about his taper?  I'd like to see how it's written out as the one I'm watching the guy talks too fast in some parts, hard to follow.

 

Thanks much, and I'll let you know how I do with the reading  

[[Pa...]]

Yes, the numbers are really stressful for me to deal with and honestly got such good grades when I took a Math class in or around 2012.  I had terrible "test anxiety" though, shook so bad I couldn't do my test, couldn't figure or write out the answers.  I was allowed to take tests from home when they found out, just used my laptop and the tests were online.

 

Anyway, I did read a wonderful reply from Slowandsteady who explained about the numbers done as percentages, or linear.  I didn't know anything about the difference or even what linear meant.  I had asked SAS what it all meant and they said that with percentages you can't get down to your zero amount dose (jump off point) but with linear you can.  I'll paste in his reply to me because I was only paraphrasing.  You may know all about this already, but might help others to figure their plans out or, figure as they go which is what I'll do.  Here's his reply:

 

Hi Denise,

I am glad you asked. There are two ways to calculate a reduction, as you mentioned one is percentage-based (aka logarithmic) and the other is quantity-based (aka linear). Logarithmic and linear describe the shape of the graph they produce (see my recent blog update here for a picture of a logarithmic reduction over 26mo); but I find those two terms confusing, so I just say percent-based or quantity-based.

 

A percent-based reduction is when the reduction is calculated as a percentage of the current total daily dose. Because the current total daily dose decreased, the amount removed with each cut also decreases (not to be confused with calculating a % of the starting dose as a quantity and just removing this same quantity over and over again, which would be quantity-based) . A percent-based reduction is generally preferred because it has more consistent symptomatic intensity than a quantity-based reduction, but a % reduction never reaches zero and gets very very slow at the end. If you read my recent blog post you'll see that I've done percent-based from 2mg/day to 0.125mg/day and now I'm switching to quantity-based to get to zero.

 

A quantity-based reduction is when the reduction is calculated as a specific quantity of medication, regardless of the current total daily dose. This could be calculated from an initial percent, or could be limited to the measuring equipment available, or just work out to be the right amount for the cutting strategy and individual. For example I'm going to be reducing by 0.01-0.02mL of my 0.0625mg/mL liquid per day, as tolerated.

 

I hope this helps clarify the difference. I did not look for Jellybeans post. Let me know if you have more questions. 

 

Oregonlady,

 

It appears you’ve solicited taper advice via PM, this is against the rules which is in place for your safety.  When taper advice is offered privately, there is no way to know if that advice is sound which could cause possible harm.  It’s best to keep discussions about tapers on the open forum, that way other members can jump in if they see cause for concern. 

 

Did you receive slownsteady’s permission to post his private message to you on the open forum?  I’m fairly confident he know’s our policy so it looks like he’s chosen to ignore it, I’ll take this up with him privately. 

 

Oh and by the way, there is another way to calculate reductions, hyperbolic reductions, Dr. Mark Horowitz and others are now recommending for tapering of psychiatric drugs.

 

Pamster

 

 

[[or...]]

I didn't ask about my taper numbers, I asked about calculating, how to get to zero using linear??  I certainly didn't ask for advice on what I should taper?  I don't understand, and I knew not to do that??

 

How is it going to hurt anyone to know the difference between percentages and linear?

[[Pa...]]

I didn't ask about my taper numbers, I asked about calculating, how to get to zero using linear??  I certainly didn't ask for advice on what I should taper?  I don't understand, and I knew not to do that??

 

How is it going to hurt anyone to know the difference between percentages and linear?

 

I appreciate the fact you didn’t discuss your taper details but what you did ask for is still against the rules and really, if you hadn’t posted your personal message on the open forum then others wouldn’t have been able to benefit from the information.  The more information we keep public, the more people can be helped and this is what we’re all about, peer support.

 

You may not use the Personal Message (PM) system for withdrawal or taper advice. PMs are primarily intended for moral support, fun, and distraction. Please post your taper plan or withdrawal questions and concerns to the forum boards for wider discussion and feedback.

 

Community Policies & Documents

[[or...]]

Ok

[[Li...]]

Hello, oregonlady.  I’m glad you now understand and have agreed to follow our guidelines regarding the use of Personal Messages (PMs).

 

As Pamster has explained, there are multiple reasons why conversations related to taper planning and benzodiazepine withdrawal are best conducted on the open forum instead of via PM. In addition to contributing to the community’s knowledge base, it protects members from receiving/acting on incorrect or incomplete information.

 

For example, the PM you received contains incomplete information.  The member does not appear to be aware of a third, evidence-based method for calculating reductions in dose — hyperbolic reductions.  To learn more from a highly credible source (Dr. Josef Witt-Doerring, a psychiatrist with expertise in psychiatric drug withdrawal):

 

Should I do a Hyperbolic Taper? What You Need to Know

 

Edit: Corrected URL

[[or...]]

It's so nice of you to point out my mistake again libertas.  Thank you so much 

[[or...]]

Hey Libertas,

 

I don't see a signature for you and I really like to read about other's experiences, how they tapered etc. ?  Thanks much

[[Li...]]

It's so nice of you to point out my mistake again libertas.  Thank you so much 

 

Oh dear.  It appears you have misunderstood the twofold purpose of my post.  First, to thank you for following our guidelines. Second, to inform you and other readers of a third, promising method for making dose reductions.

[[or...]]

It's so nice of you to point out my mistake again libertas.  Thank you so much 

 

Oh dear.  It appears you have misunderstood the twofold purpose of my post.  First, to thank you for following our guidelines. Second, to inform you and other readers of a third, promising method for making dose reductions.

 

I read your whole reply, I don't think I missed any of it??  Misunderstanding is very easy to do considering what many of us are going through though so it doesn't surprise me.  I hope you didn't misunderstand my response? 

[[Ke...]]

[quote author=Pamster link=topic=277306.msg3457267#msg3457267 date=1682523750

 

Oh and by the way, there is another way to calculate reductions, hyperbolic reductions, Dr. Mark Horowitz and others are now recommending for tapering of psychiatric drugs.

 

Pamster

 

I am interested in learning more about this method Pam.

[[Pa...]]

[quote author=Pamster link=topic=277306.msg3457267#msg3457267 date=1682523750

 

Oh and by the way, there is another way to calculate reductions, hyperbolic reductions, Dr. Mark Horowitz and others are now recommending for tapering of psychiatric drugs.

 

Pamster

 

 

I am interested in learning more about this method Pam.

Hi Key West,

 

Did you get a chance to look at this video? https:/Did you get a chance to look at this video?

 

Feel free to start a thread of your own so we can work out the details. 

 

Edit: Corrected link.

[[Ke...]]

[quote author=Pamster link=topic=277306.msg3457267#msg3457267 date=1682523750

 

Oh and by the way, there is another way to calculate reductions, hyperbolic reductions, Dr. Mark Horowitz and others are now recommending for tapering of psychiatric drugs.

 

Pamster

 

 

I am interested in learning more about this method Pam.

Hi Key West,

 

Did you get a chance to look at this video? https:/Did you get a chance to look at this video?

 

Feel free to start a thread of your own so we can work out the details. 

 

Edit: Corrected link.

 

Bookmarked both:

 

Will get to them shortly. 

 

[[or...]]

I'm studying that more as well, very interested in Dr. Horowitz info and Dr. Doerings.  Watched the videos, but for me, I need to watch them more than once and also any text I need to at least read twice, and more.  Whatever it takes until I understand to the best of my ability. I first saw some info/videos from I think Libertas, but it was good to see yours, and it was a reminder for me.

 

I have to explore those charts again, and compare to what they are saying but am confident I will eventually have a pretty good understanding Thanks much!

[[Ke...]]

I'm studying that more as well, very interested in Dr. Horowitz info and Dr. Doerings.  Watched the videos, but for me, I need to watch them more than once and also any text I need to at least read twice, and more.  Whatever it takes until I understand to the best of my ability. I first saw some info/videos from I think Libertas, but it was good to see yours, and it was a reminder for me.

 

I have to explore those charts again, and compare to what they are saying but am confident I will eventually have a pretty good understanding Thanks much!

 

I am understanding, if correct, that Dr Doerring states that tapering from initial 'high' doses does not have as much of an impact as does the lower "micro' doses do based on the non-linear EXPONENTIAL aspect. (not a straight line to taper down, but to put it into perspective, like a SLIDE. It starts up high then slopes down fast and goes out for a period of time. Like a ski slope.

 

(Pam - feel free to chime in should you feel the need)

 

The other item I froze in the Doerring video is his suggestion (or theory/hypothesis/postulation) that ELDERLY people have brains that no longer have the "elasticity" as once when young. 

 

He mentioned "high risk recovery" and "the older one gets, the longer it takes for recovery" (in most - everyone is different).

 

I think he calls it a 'maintenance dose', where an older person age 60-70-80 has stabilized at a certain dose with no ill side effects, and to him, makes more sense to continue the end-of-life routine at that stabilized dose rather than go through the withdrawal, tapering, and horrid side effects which us 'elderly' type are ore susceptible to based on our non-elastic brains.

 

WOW - am I learning here.  The DOCS and licensed MD's almost demand if not admonish patients to STAY AWAY from the INTERNET and 'Dr. Google'.  I wonder why they say that. 

 

Dr. Doerring:  older people around 70-80 suffer more with withdrawal and side effects, and perhaps should continue their maintenance dose if they have no current issues or side effects.  I never thought I would come across something like that.

 

PAM?  Thoughts?  Ashton did her studies many years ago. She is a world renowned expert - but I do not believe i have ever read that theory in her book.  It was a simple stop the drug with minimal side effects and suffering. 

 

Granted: each case is different.  Everyone has a different biochemistry.  But to stay on a maintenance dose BENZO - until end of  life??

 

[[or...]]

My first thought was you explained the "slide" analogy and I began to understand better already in the Hyperbolic method, thank you much!

 

Also, I wondered if he mentioned the shape the older people are in, pre-existing conditions etc. but I'll keep watching as well.  I have neighbors that are my age but they are on so many pills, and have so many things already wrong with them, I think it would be safer if they did what Dr. Doering suggests.

 

I'm 70, as some know, but I'm going to try this because I take no other drugs, at all, and might still stand a chance to be free of it.  As always it is true all of us are different, especially in how bad off we may be after living longer years abusing our bodies, or taking care of them maybe, except for the Benzo.  Believe me, I do wonder still, if it may be too late, but I'm determined to give it ago.  I don't feel any fear at this point, maybe I'm just numb from the neck up