Hold or Updose?

[[je...]]

I think it will be good if you can get out of the facility so you have control over your taper. I think it will give you more peace of mind and confidence in what you're doing.

[[ch...]]

The problem is that I tried to leave this place this morning and they said it would be a DAMA. They told me that since I would be leaving "against medical advice" (even though what's occurring here is medical malpractice). They won't give me any medication if I leave, or they would give me just the bare minimum until I could get myself to a hospital.

 

This place is a cruel joke. No wonder all of the benzowise people advise against going into a detox/rehab facility. I am now a prisoner here, trapped at 23 mg a day and suffering horribly.

 

It's called "Oro Recovery Centers". Wish I had done my research more thoroughly on this place. They are con artists.

 

I am desperately trying to find a prescriber just to get me 48 hours worth of my valium and gabapentin. I feel like some sort of drug-seeking addict, but I cannot stand to stay at this place any longer.

[[ch...]]

@[ F...]

 

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I'm afraid to take the Remeron due to the concern that I am still not anywhere near stable on the valium and I'm taking 2400 mg of gabapentin a day. I'm just scared it'll do something weird.

 

The stress of being in this facility is compounding everything. I would be SO much better off right now if I just had my meds and a hotel room until my Dad can get to LA to get me out of here.

 

I seriously feel I need to updose. I am completely non-functional. I am just so afraid that my body can't take this level of stress so consistently. My BP was 130/90-140/90 today, and it tends to run REALLY low. Took 10 mg of nadolol so hopefully that's helping. I am just so insanely stressed out.

[[Be...]]

I looked up this place online, sure enough, they have a page on benzo withdrawal, and this statement is right at the end; "Olo House has experienced medical detox professionals who are properly trained in safe and proper benzo withdrawal protocols, and we use The Ashton Method for Benzodiazepine Withdrawal."

 

Except, they're not, in your case. My former telehealth state-provided Peer describes what you're getting as a detox using what she calls "comfort meds." Gabapentin, Zyprexa (Olanzapine), are comfort meds. The gabapentin prevents seizures and masks some of the withdrawal symptoms. Olanzapine can do the same, especially agitation. Antidepressants are only good if you have a condition they are able to treat you for. Remeron the same, or to help you sleep. All of these will require their own weaning off of, if taken too long. Ashton specifically said such add-ons are not only unnecessary, they can cause their own problems. Granted, some providers will judiciously use such meds to help with  things like sleep. Low doses of gabapentinoids and antipsychotics do assist with sleep. Some have found fairly low doses of Remeron help with sleep.

 

Sounds like false advertising to me. And medical mismanagement. I have to give credit to BB member Cocodot for the phrase "medical mismanagement."

 

Sounds like you need to get out, can you hang in there until you see the new provider? If you have to, take the Zyprexa. It might help you cope until you see new provider. You can safely stop it. I was on it a whole month, 2.5 mg, and my Psych NP that I switched too for benzo w/d, told me to stop it. I'd been put on it by the terrible psych practice who tried to pry me off Klonopin too quickly. Typical starting dose is 5 mg. 

 

Don't be fooled by the the Newsweek best rehab 2022 badge on the bottom of the page. The psych practice who stupidly put me on benzos, and then tried to rip me off them quickly with help from Zyprexa, is part of a hospital system that Newsweek routinely rates among the top in the country, usually in the top 10 or 20. Newsweek "best of" anything means nothing. 

[[ch...]]

I’m supposed to speak with a benzowise doc today.

 

I really hope he is able to help me get out of this mess and away from these people. But I have no idea what to say to him, and I don’t know if he’ll even be willing to work with me given my current circumstances.

 

He is California based and only works with patients in California I believe.

 

I was advised by another doctor yesterday that I should seriously consider going back on the klonopin and then tapering from that, as my life sort of fell apart when I made that sudden switch from 2 mg of klonopin + 10 mg of valium a day to just 40 mg of valium a day.

 

I hope and pray that my body hasn’t undergone too much damage already, and that somehow it can recover from this mess.

 

As I’ve stated probably here and elsewhere multiple times now my social phobia/agoraphobia is really at an extreme level. I’ve had clinical OCD for as long as I can remember. Feel incredibly overwhelmed.

 

I don’t know if anybody else has ever felt this but being in a car and going to a new place is incredibly difficult for me.

 

Watched videos about protracted withdrawal that really freaked me out as well because I started to have “tolerance withdrawal” back in October/November even while taking high doses of valium. Wondering now if I’m one of those unlucky few that just have a horrific time coming off of benzos. Neurotoxicity. Brain damage. Scary thoughts.

 

I never thought that I’d experience anything like this. Life has definitely gone “off-script” for me. I am not on the trajectory I thought a 25 year old young man should be on.

[[Be...]]

Is there not anybody you can see from Pittsburg?

 

The safetaper website looks good. They do only serve California, but hope to expand nationwide. Sure sounds benzo wise. From their website:

 

"SafeTaper will design a taper around your needs.  We offer video visits from the comfort of your own home.  You set the taper timeline. 

 

We prescribe your benzodiazepine in gradually decreasing quantities.  And we will stay in regular contact throughout the taper to support you."

 

You could go back on the Klonopin, and taper directly from that. If you need help with that, Bob7 has a method for doing that which he used for himself. A

 

Any damage is temporary, you've been tapered rapidly, but you are still taking a significant dose of Valium. What you are, as others pointed out, is unstable. Stop watching videos about protracted withdrawal, that is very rare in those who taper. More likely to happen to those who taper off completely too rapidly (you aren't completely off), or cold turkey off high doses taken long-term. You're taper may be more difficult, it may take years to safely get off with the least symptoms. The "tolerance withdrawal" you experienced was due to actual withdrawal from the big drop in dose when you went from your mix of K and V to just V.

 

How are you affording the inpatient detox, and how will you pay for the Airbnb? Do you have funds of your own? Or is your family helping you out?

 

Restoration123 used NAD+ IV infusions to step down. then completely off, benzos. The facility you are at, offers NAD+, why haven't they mentioned it to you? DripHydration offers NAD+ IV"s in your home, I checked their coverage map, and they cover most of LA and LA County, including Malibu. It may help you, lots of people use NAD+ to either stop their lower dose of benzo, or to step down faster with less withdrawal. I have been using the nasal spray to help with withdrawal, and have had positive results. Others have injected it with positive results. A couple people did not have it work for them, but most had success. It's expensive, depending on where you get it at. Do your research, learn as much as you can. If you're a good candidate, it's an option for you to consider.

[[ch...]]

@[Be...]

 

I would love to go back on the klonopin, I seemed to do better on that drug, as it lasted for nearly 10-12 hours for me, where as with valium I feel it wear off after about 4 hours.

 

I really needed to hear your comment reminding me to stop watching videos/reading stuff on the internet. 

 

I do tend to go down these horrific rabbit holes that just have no end and always end up an anxious mess on the other side. The only reason I brought up protracted withdrawal was that Dr. Josef Witt-Doering mentioned that a possible presentation of it is someone is taking their normal dose of benzos and suddenly starts having breakthrough anxiety/symtpoms, which is exactly what happened to me, so my mind immediately went to "I have protracted withdrawal syndrome".

 

As far as the NAD+, I've never read about it or really even heard about it. I assume they haven't mentioned it to me because their facility has been constructed on mainly lies and fancy advertising, rather than actual medical expertise.

 

I have a whole box of supplements I am too afraid to try. NAC, ashwagandha, lions mane, apigenin, B6/B12, you name it. Just scared they will rev my symptoms up big time. If you claim that NAD+ works though, I will try to do some research without becoming obsessive about it. Maybe I'll even just try it and see what happens.

 

 

[[Be...]]

If you claim that NAD+ works though, I will try to do some research without becoming obsessive about it. Maybe I'll even just try it and see what happens.

 

Get a bottle of NAD + nasal spray. Start with a single spray. See how you feel. It is not unusual to feel revved up for a short period, with the first dose. It lasted all of 5 minutes for me. Keep increasing the daily dose each week. Once you reach the maximum (90 mg a day), stick with it. If you are feeling okay with it, and maybe once your stable, you feel a lessening of your symptoms, you are likely a good candidate for NAD+ infusions.

[[ch...]]

Can I try NAD+ even while tapering/in interdose withdrawal?

 

I also developed a concerning new symptom last night. Since the start of this whole thing, one thing that thing that thankfully never really got horrifically affected was my sleep. For the past week or two, I've noticed myself snapping awake at 5-7 am, but last night for the first time I experienced what I would describe as true insomnia.

 

Every time at the EXACT moment I would drift off into sleep, I would immediately be awoken by a surge of adrenaline and panic. This happened 10 times probably and really scared me as I was so throroughly exhausted but just couldn't get to sleep no matter how much my body wanted it. I've been going to bed around 9-11 pm recently, but last night I didn't get to sleep until probably 3-4 am. Had very light and broken sleep and woke up at 8 am.

 

Benzowise doc really thinks I need updosed to at least 30. I'd personally really like to switch back to K from V as I seemed to fare a lot better on K. I know tapering K is more challenging. Valium's active effects last for about 3 1/2 - 4 hours for me and then it immediately "feels" like it is out of my system, where as K hangs around for 8-12.

 

Don't know how to proceed. Want to get off the benzos and don't want to ruin any progress I've made but at the same time I am essentially non-functional right now. Wasn't too functional on 30-40-50 mg of valium either. Was having breakthrough panic attacks and horrendeous social phobia/agoraphobia even though I was on over double the dose of what I am now. I feel trapped.

[[Be...]]

Can I try NAD+ even while tapering/in interdose withdrawal?

 

Yes! People used it to help with tapering. I am using it, and it has helped with my taper.

 

V has a lot longer half-life than K. But you have had massive reductions, you're feeling those higher doses of V finally exiting your system. Some people don't respond well to switching to V. K is more powerful, so they struggle with V not covering the things K did. They switched back to K and tapered off of that. Also, all your symptoms are consistent with withdrawal. You are in the throes of pretty bad withdrawal because the place you went to for detox tapered you way too fast. You are unstable.

 

Benzo-wise doc probably sees the massive taper you've already gone through, and is wanting to see if you can stabilize on 30 mg. If you can, and can get yourself down to 5 mg or less of diazepam, NAD+ IV infusion would be an option to consider. If you can tolerate the NAD+ nasal spray, you should handle NAD+ IV.

 

If you go back to K, can you handle 1.5 mg? That's the equivalent of 30 mg. of Valium. Get down to .25 or below, and look into NAD+ IV's to jump off.

[[ch...]]

I really hope this is just bad withdrawal. Never experienced anything like it in my life.

 

This place is also refusing to discharge me with my meds (obviously for fear of litigation), as they are calling it a DAMA, THEY are the ones who told me "take whatever you need to get here". THEY are the ones who started me at 120 mg of valium (I was only taking 40-60 mg a day before that. I didn't really know how to do the Ashton method myself).

 

So the plan now is to have my friend come get me tomorrow. He has a flight booked for the morning. He is going to scoop me up out of this place and we are going to go to an AirBnB or hotel nearby and really hope I stabilize on the 30 mg. I have a doctor I know who I (hope) will prescribe me 48 hours worth of meds to get me to my appt with the benzowise doc on Monday (telehealth appt).

 

I am just really nervous about all of this. My CNS is so ridiculously sensitive right now. Idk how I am going to make this transition and handle all of this. This place really did a number on me.

[[ch...]]

Also Lottie, my doctor at this place REFUSES to be believe I could be experiencing some sort of "catch up" withdrawal from the huge and frequent dose reductions over the past 3 1/2 months. Basically called me a fool and said it wasn't possible, then proceeded to label me as having "substance use disorder", tried to load me up on Zyprexa or an AD, and finally tried to yank me off more valium without my knowledge or consent. Keep in mind this is NOT A PSYCHIATRIC/INPATIENT facility. I am paying to be here out of pocket.

[[Be...]]

it sounds like the best thing for you is to just get out of there. How much Zyprexa are they offering you? Starting dose is supposed to be 5 mg. Your CNS has taken a hit, and the stress of dealing with this place isn't helping. A lot is withdrawal, but it's compounded by stress. Since you are stuck there for the night, until your friend arrives tomorrow, you could take them up on the offer of Zyprexa. It'll help calm you down, and you may even get some sleep. Even if they give you 10 mg. It is a one time dose, it won't harm you to take it. Just something to consider. Typically it is taken at bedtime, due to it's sedating effects. Act compliant, agree to no more than 10 mg. of Zyprexa (They really should only be giving you 5 mg., which follows prescribing guidelines). When your friend shows up, tell them you're leaving, and do just that.

 

If you can't get a doctor to cover you for 48 hours, go to an ER. Most will give you a couple days worth of benzodiazepines. Tell them you have an appointment, and with who. They will likely give you 48 hours worth. and then counsel you to follow up with your doctor appointment. This is just them covering their bases. If you return, they can and likely would refuse, to give you any more. The discharge paper will even state that you should follow-up with Dr. So-and-so at place/time.

 

SafeTaper sounds much better, I hope all goes well with you once you leave the detox center. It sounds like, since you are paying out-of-pocket, they are making any excuse to keep you there. Yes, they can discharge you if you request to leave, they cannot hold you there, let them DAMA you. I refused to go to the ER, when paramedics wanted to take me, and I signed a document agreeing that I was refusing against medical advice. I knew the ER couldn't have done anything, they'd admit it and discharge me.

 

Test out the NAD+ nasal spray, and research NAD+ IV infusions for benzo detox. An option that may help you with tapering, and finally getting off. Right now, focus on getting stable, getting out of the detox facility, and getting to your upcoming appointment with a benzo-wise doctor. That should be your primary concern.

[[ch...]]

The ER would give me a couple days worth of my benzos to get me by? My appt with the doctor is on Monday at noon, so I'd just need enough benzos and gabapentin to tide me over until then.

[[ch...]]

I think it's 2.5 mg of zyprexa they would give me. If I start having issues again tonight with sleep I wonder if it would be better to try 2.5 mg of Zyprexa or 3.5 mg of Remeron.

 

When I get out of here, should I try and immediately updose back to 30? I am terrified of updosing because I am afraid it will not work and I'll have just undone any "progress" I've made, even though I am completely bedridden and cannot interact with the world or other people in any meaningful way. Just want to get off of this stuff, but I am really in the hurt locker at 23 mg.

[[Be...]]

The ER would give me a couple days worth of my benzos to get me by? My appt with the doctor is on Monday at noon, so I'd just need enough benzos and gabapentin to tide me over until then.

 

ER's typically give a couple days worth, and they document they gave it to you, so you can't go to a different ER and request more benzos. This is true of any controlled medication. Better if a doctor can get you a script to get by, but if not, you can try the ER. They screen for people that are drug-seeking or doctor shopping to score drugs. So, it's best to be upfront and tell them you have an appointment with a benzo taper specialist, give them the name of the doctor, and the day and time of your appointment. Say you just need two days worth until you see the doctor. I once had to go to the ER, they knew I had an upcoming doctors appointment, they gave me a couple pills for two days, but stressed I had to keep my appointment. If I returned to the ER, they would not give me any.

[[Be...]]

I think it's 2.5 mg of zyprexa they would give me. If I start having issues again tonight with sleep I wonder if it would be better to try 2.5 mg of Zyprexa or 3.5 mg of Remeron.

 

Either would help with sleep, 2.5 mg. Zyprexa is routinely given in psych hospitals for sleep. It really is a fairly small dose. You could try either. Remeron may be more likely to knock you out. Some find 3.5 mg. Remeron works better than 7 mg., less is better.

 

When I get out of here, should I try and immediately updose back to 30? I am terrified of updosing because I am afraid it will not work and I'll have just undone any "progress" I've made, even though I am completely bedridden and cannot interact with the world or other people in any meaningful way. Just want to get off of this stuff, but I am really in the hurt locker at 23 mg.

 

If you have the pills to do it, and a doctor to prescribe them, yeah. Since the Benzo-wise doctor wanted to do that. As others in this thread said, it's more important for you to get stable, and not suffer needlessly. Tapering too rapidly isn't progress, and it sets you up for a worse recovery down the road. The new doctor you'll be seeing will probably have you hold at 30 mg. until you are stable, before commencing a taper. Sounds like his goal is to get you stable. Because you aren't anywhere near stable now.

[[ch...]]

Do you think he would be open to switching me back over to Klonopin and tapering me off of that? I seemed to fare far better on Klonopin.

 

When I look back and think about it, my life fell apart when I switched from Klonopin to Valium suddenly.

[[Be...]]

Do you think he would be open to switching me back over to Klonopin and tapering me off of that? I seemed to fare far better on Klonopin.

 

When I look back and think about it, my life fell apart when I switched from Klonopin to Valium suddenly.

 

 

I don't have an answer for that. You'll need to discuss that with him, and explain that switching to Valium hasn't really worked for you.

[[ke...]]

So once again, with all this confusion, updosing, switchbacks to K, nasal sprays, ER's, " benzo wise" doctors etc, my advice is to finish getting off now while you are supervised, and get back to life so you are not ******* around with this benzo shit for the next 5 years. Think whats best in the long term.

 

 

Edit: Removed Profanity

[[ch...]]

I'm really not supervised right now @Keagan, all that these people do here is hold my medication for me. And, even if I was being supervised, I can't afford this place anymore.

 

I don't know what the path forward is, all I know is that I am bedridden and am only getting worse, and I am still at 23 mg of valium. My best hope is to get back on the klonopin, hopefully regain some quality of life, and hit this thing from a different angle.

 

I truly do appreciate your input Keagan, and I am so happy that the rapid taper method worked for you. Maybe this way that I'm trying won't work and I will end up having to do a rapid detox. I'm just trying to make the best decision I can with the information I have. This facility is not the right place for me though.

[[Be...]]

So once again, with all this confusion, updosing, switchbacks to K, nasal sprays, ER's, " benzo wise" doctors etc, my advice is to finish getting off now while you are supervised, and get back to life so you are not bleeping around with this benzo shit for the next 5 years. Think whats best in the long term.

 

 

Yeah. And the next 5 years could be filled with a horrible acute, post acute, and possibly protracted. You don't know, and neither do I. Plus, staying there, they are pushing other meds that can be harmful in the long run, and require their own tapering. Detox centers almost never work, there may be exceptions, but they are rare. Being bed-bound in a detox center due to a rapid taper and having "comfort meds" like gabapentin, Zyprexa and Remeron while suffering in agony just to "get off now" isn't going to get the OP "back to life." The OP has decided to leave and see the Benzo-wise doctor that actually does Ashton taper, Perhaps that is best for the long-term. 

[[ke...]]

I'm really not supervised right now @Keagan, all that these people do here is hold my medication for me. And, even if I was being supervised, I can't afford this place anymore.

 

I don't know what the path forward is, all I know is that I am bedridden and am only getting worse, and I am still at 23 mg of valium. My best hope is to get back on the klonopin, hopefully regain some quality of life, and hit this thing from a different angle.

 

I truly do appreciate your input Keagan, and I am so happy that the rapid taper method worked for you. Maybe this way that I'm trying won't work and I will end up having to do a rapid detox. I'm just trying to make the best decision I can with the information I have. This facility is not the right place for me though.

 

Understood, there is not always an obvious answer. I wish you the best of luck and I advise that whatever your chosen path, pursue it with individuality and CONFIDENCE!!!

[[ch...]]

Unfortunately even the "comfort med" I'm on, gabapentin, doesn't seem to be doing a whole lot, even at 2400 mg.

 

Hoping that this updose or switch to klonopin or whatever happens restores some sort of quality of life.

 

Maybe the agony I've endured getting to 23 mg has "re-sensitized" my GABAergic system a little?

 

Who knows.

[[ch...]]

@[Ke...]

 

I may as well pursue it with confidence! We all have a one way ticket anyways. 

 

“We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go always a little further."