DMT Started After Four Months on Clonazepam

[[sl...]]

Did you hold to test the effects? That's probably wise. I hadn't considered.

 

I have been somewhat reckless in my four different liquid trials, and twice I paid dearly for this haste with both debilitating symptoms and confusion about what was the cause. If I was trialing a new drug form today I would consider holding on the new form for at least a week to test the bioequivalency and ingredient tolerance; this way if I am are surprisingly uncomfortable I will know it's an adjustment to the new dosage form and not caused by an intended dosage reduction. Intolerance to ingredients, in my experience and from what I've heard from other buddies, seems to come on very quickly; for me it's been as soon as the second day of dosing. A bioequivalency adjustment can be much more subtle or take longer for effects; because it's essentially an updose or reduction of unknown quantity, so I expect this to behave based on the half-life of the medicine.

 

I think it's very likely that liquid from tablets will not pose either of these risks for you, but if you want to be careful a week-long hold might give you more confidence as you begin to reduce, and also later this experience can help to belay any doubts that your liquid is causing problems when really, IMO, it's more likely to be the taper rate.

 

I'm curious to hear other thoughts about discontinuing the morning dose first and then going after the evening dose. I know you weren't sure if that would work for you, slownsteady, but I tend to feel like myself when I wake up in the morning and after the dose wears off in the evening, so I wonder if getting rid of that dose first would help me feel well during the day.

 

I don't experience clonazepam to have much longer than a 12-hour therapeutic effect at my current doses. This is far improved from when I was at 2mg/day and the therapeutic effect seemed more like 6-7 hours. If this trend continues, I suspect that lower doses will have less need for frequent dosing; but currently at just under 0.8mg/day I would not dose less than twice a day. If you read my buddie blog, I recently evened out my AM and PM doses and noticed some symptomatic improvements; for you though, the benefits you expect from reducing your AM dose alone might be there. I cannot say.

 

You might see the improvement you're looking for by just beginning and fine-tuning your reduction rate. I personally do not like spending time holding while stable on clonazepam. I hold only as necessary to stabilize and then I immediately begin reducing again. When I am stable and holding I feel emotionally deadened, depressed, fatigued, and I also worry about making habits that are only sustainable while sedated by this medicine. Cutting again usually gets me out of this funk, and helps me focus on skill-building under the pressure of my underlying symptoms. It's a delicate balance for me, and one that I'm hoping to make more steady by reducing my cutting rate to 5%/14 days next week.

 

I hope this helps! You'll get this. 

[[he...]]

Thanks for your reply. All very insightful as usual.

 

Am I correct that there would be about .3mL of nearly pure alcohol in the first dose starting a taper? Encourage me that that is not an issue. I think I saw somewhere where you said how much you would have to take in your dose for it to cause a problem.

[[sl...]]

Thanks for your reply. All very insightful as usual.

 

Am I correct that there would be about .3mL of nearly pure alcohol in the first dose starting a taper? Encourage me that that is not an issue. I think I saw somewhere where you said how much you would have to take in your dose for it to cause a problem.

 

Yes, 0.3mL of ethanol in a 1ml of a 30% ethanol mixture. Compare this to ~17mL in a single shot of 80 proof vodka (51x the amount in 1ml of 30% ethanol). I can't say what ethanol dose would cause a problem for myself or someone else; I just know that 0.3mL is a very small amount and I appreciate this.

[[he...]]

Typically that wouldn't have caused me any problems, even the shot of alcohol, but things have all changed now, obviously.

 

Also, do you have the Teva-brand orange tablets? They didn't just start dissolving nicely, I had to give them a bit of a head start. Hopefully now they'll slurry up.

[[sl...]]

I have Accord Healthcare tablets. I let them soak in the 180 proof for for about 5-10 minutes before I can crush them up easily with a glass stir rod and then I let them soak, stirring occasionally for another hour or so. Then I dilute to my final volume, transfer to medicine bottle, and recently I wait a few minutes or so, then pour a little of the medicine bottle contents back in the graduated cylinder and swirl this around, then pouring this amount back back into the medicine bottle. This last step seems to get the graduated cylinder cleaner and relieves my anxiety about medicine sitting around in the excipients that are reluctant to leave the cylinder.

[[he...]]

Do you have an amount of solid that settles in your medicine bottle or zero? I have a bit that settles to the bottom rather quickly. Would we think that's just excipient? Ideally, all the clonazepam should've dissolved in the alcohol, and anything else should be something else, right?

[[sl...]]

Do you have an amount of solid that settles in your medicine bottle or zero? I have a bit that settles to the bottom rather quickly. Would we think that's just excipient? Ideally, all the clonazepam should've dissolved in the alcohol, and anything else should be something else, right?

 

I have excipients that settle in my liquid from tablets; at least a few ingredients in all the tablets I've read about do not dissolve in water or alcohol, flow agents like magnesium stearate for example.

 

I would hope that all the clonazepam would have dissolved given the generous ethanol-to-water ratio I'm using, but I make sure to dose my liquid as if it is a suspension. Dosing as a suspension is how I make sure that I'm taking a regular portion of excipients with my liquid, thus getting as close as I can to my intended medicinal concentration per dose.

 

I gave you details on my procedure for doing this on your other tapering thread. 

[[he...]]

I know you did, but I tried following the directions to a tee, and after the first dose immediately had bloating and back pain the first day, which are the withdrawal symptoms I've noticed the most so far during this taper. And then I got afraid the Teva tablets would not evenly disperse for each dose, so that I would never know how much dose I was getting. Sounds like the Accord tablets work better for this. I'm trying to figure out what to do next. Thank you for your help.

[[sl...]]

I know you did, but I tried following the directions to a tee, and after the first dose immediately had bloating and back pain the first day, which are the withdrawal symptoms I've noticed the most so far during this taper. And then I got afraid the Teva tablets would not evenly disperse for each dose, so that I would never know how much dose I was getting. Sounds like the Accord tablets work better for this. I'm trying to figure out what to do next. Thank you for your help.

 

Hi hereforhelp,

I didn't give directions, but I did describe how I'm dosing my liquid from tablets. I understand that you noticed immediate WD symptoms when dosing your liquid; I wonder what cause these symptoms for you. I would be surprised if your Teva tablets are that much different than Accord tablets with regards to deconstructing, dissolving and suspending in water.

 

In addition to clonazepam, Accord 0.5mg tablets contain: corn starch, anhydrous lactose, lactose monohydrate, magnesium stearate, microcrystalline cellulose and FD&C Yellow No. 6 Lake.

*anhydrous lactose is a dried form of the water-soluble sugar lactose (Wikipedia)

 

In addition to clonazepam, Teva 0.5mg tablets contain: corn starch, lactose monohydrate, magnesium stearate, microcrystalline cellulose, povidone, and Yellow D&C No. 10 Aluminum Lake.

*povidone is a water-soluble polymer (Wikipedia)

 

The only two major inactive ingredient differences I'm seeing are both water-soluble (also they have different water-soluble dyes). There may be differences in manufacturing processes and clonazepam contents, but the inactive ingredients in both tablets are extremely similar to my eye. I personally would expect very similar deconstruction rates, suspension behavior, and potential dissolution in ethanol.

 

I'm sorry I can't offer more insight into the effects of your recent one-day trial. Trialing any modified form of a pharmaceutical, even split tablets, can be stressful. Personally if I was trialing a new liquid along with familiar tablets (liquid/tablet hybrid) and I experienced moderately increased symptoms on the first day, I would hold at my current dose and keep trialing for at least few more days. Things might improve for me after a few days of regular use; it's commonly reported that some liquid feel less potent than their tablet equivalent and this might take an adjustment period.

 

There are many other options for tapering. I hope you find a way forward that you feel comfortable with. Let us know how we can help.

[[he...]]

I actually have the Accord tablets too... My other prescription is Teva. That was a big mistake. So we have the exact same medication. Maybe my mistake was that my graduated cylinder still had stuff in it that I couldn't get out. I don't know how I would've gotten it all out, even using your method of putting some of the liquid medicine back in.

[[En...]]

Using the graduated cylinder, instead of putting some of the already mixed medicine back in to try and clear it...could you just hold some water back from the original mixture, transfer the mixture to your holding container, and then add the remaining pure water to the graduated cylinder to clear the sediment from the sides, and then transfer that to the mixture to complete your intended volume?

[[sl...]]

Using the graduated cylinder, instead of putting some of the already mixed medicine back in to try and clear it...could you just hold some water back from the original mixture, transfer the mixture to your holding container, and then add the remaining pure water to the graduated cylinder to clear the sediment from the sides, and then transfer that to the mixture to complete your intended volume?

 

Hi Enufalready2021,

Yes, it seems to me like this suggestion would also be an effective way to collect the sediment. Twice the measurements is twice the margin of error, but otherwise I don't see any problems. With good measuring practices and decent batch sizes (20ml+) I'd expect this to be a small discrepancy. Measuring with appropriately sized pipettes the discrepancy might be even smaller. But perhaps we're discussing areas of diminishing returns. 

[[he...]]

Well, here's an update...I probably should just start a Buddie Blog.

 

I've been doing a dry micro taper since I got my scale back in November. It took a couple weeks to adjust, because my weighed tablets did not quite match what I'd been taking by visually cutting tablets.

 

I was able to get my daytime dose down from .375mg to .25mg. Now I'm at the point I need to start tapering my bedtime dose as well to try and even things out. My issue is my tablet weight in my last bottle ranged from 167 to 174mg, and my 10-tablet average was 170.6mg. The tablets in my new bottle weigh less on average, more in the range of 165 to 171mg.

 

So I'm going to have to recalculate the 10-tablet average when I go to generate a taper for both doses.

 

Does anyone have experience having to change the 10-tablet/pill average during a taper? I don't see any way around changing it if I want to be more accurate with my dosing. It's just going to change how I think about my numbers, because I've been thinking in tablet weight instead of dose for awhile now.

 

I'm not sure that I can crush and encapsulate and not experience some bad stuff due to the change in absorption/metabolism rate of the powder. Obviously, that would be the most accurate way to do this.

 

I'm not asking for any medical advice, just thoughts.

[[sl...]]

Hi hereforhelp,

Congrats on all your tapering progress!

 

It's relatively easy to change pill weight averages; the steps involve converting your previous dosage pill weight to milligrams of medicine, then using the new pill weight average to convert the same milligrams of medicine back into the new dosage pill weight.

 

Are you using a cheap milligram scale (<$500)? If so, I think it's important to consider the limitations of this device. IME even "deluxe" cheap milligram scales cannot measure reliably to the milligram; I would expect, at best, a centigram measurement to be consistent from weighed dose to dose. I think this consistency is what is important in tapering; accuracy to reality (meaning is it actually 0.01g or 0.02g) isn't in my opinion as necessary as is it the same as what was dosed yesterday, and is it reduced at the desired relative-proportion to what was intended.

 

Personally I would not be at all concerned about a ~3mg variance in my average pill weight as guessed at by a cheap scale. But if your tapering approach is relying on these milligram measurements and you're using a cheap scale, I suggest reconsidering the use of filler.

 

Regarding your concerns about using filler, I am doubtful that crushed tablets and filler encapsulated in gelatin has an accelerated absorption rate over a regular intact tablet or tablet pieces; the 0.5mg clonazepam tablets I have fall apart quickly in saliva (they're not ODTs) where as I suspect that a gelatin capsule containing a mix of tablets and filler would take much longer to deconstruct. Also, I believe it is primarily the intestines that absorb the medicine, so that length of travel remains consistent.

 

If you just want the math steps for an average pill weight adjustment, tell us your tablet size (ex. 0.5mg), your new pill weight average (weight 10+ tablets, divide by total number of tablets), and your current pill weight per dose using the 170.6mg pill weight average. 

[[pi...]]

While none of us has access to a laboratory quality scale, many of the scales available today can provide an accuracy that will not disrupt a taper.

[[he...]]

Thank you for both your replies. Much appreciated. Well, good, your explanation matches how I was going to proceed, so that gives me some confidence. If I run into trouble in the figuring, I'll definitely reach out. That total variance in my previous bottle was actually 7 mg, which seems a little more significant. Maybe not.

 

I actually do have a good scale. I had to use money I'd been saving up for something else I hadn't decided on yet. Didn't expect to have to buy a scale. But after the liquids didn't work, and having fears that one of those Amazon scales (or even two) would stop working on me in the middle of the taper, leaving me high and dry, I figured I didn't have any other option. I'm also hopeful I can sell that thing once I'm done. Hoping for a cathartic experience on top of being done with the medicine.

 

I may have to try encapsulating powder once I get further down to try and keep the accuracy up.

 

Anyone know if the medicine in tablets is typically distributed by volume or by weight? I know they mix this stuff up in a big slurry, so I would think it would be by volume, like the flour in a cake, but it could just as easily be by weight. Just curious, because, ideally, I assume that a 167-mg tablet is just as strong as a 174-mg tablet, so when I cut the former, and weigh out an amount, I'm getting more medicine than when I do the same treatment to the latter.

 

Oh, slow, are you anticipating any issues in finding your Accord tablets in the new year, or do you feel like you have a reliable, consistent source? I think you know Walgreens switched to Teva a couple months back, but I found a neighborhood pharmacy still carrying Accord. They said it could change in the new year when they negotiate prices, but I'm hopeful it doesn't, and if it does, I'm hopeful they will order it for me.

[[sl...]]

Hi hereforhelp,

I'm really glad to hear that you've invested in a scale you feel confident in using. It seems like it's really been an asset, helping you to progress in your taper when other methods weren't working for you.

 

As far as I know, tablets are pressed by die volume and not by weight.

 

I don't know much about the current availability of clonazepam tablets. I'm sorry you've had trouble getting yours. I have finally stockpiled enough 0.5mg Accord Healthcare tablets to theoretically get me to the end of my taper, some 1.5 years from now; this seems a little silly to me, but I sleep better at night knowing I have this support in place. I hope that your pharmacy will continue to order the manufacturer that you're familiar with.

 

If you want to "show your work" regarding the pill weight conversion, we'd be happy to take a look and other buddies might benefit from seeing your approach.

[[he...]]

Thank you, slownsteady.

 

I'm currently at .2292 mg daytime and .3845 mg nighttime. When I plug those into the calculator and switch to taper both doses at 6.3%/14 days, I get my next day's doses to be:

 

.2281 mg and .3827 mg or 77.335 mg tablet and 129.749 mg tablet at a new average of 169.5 mg per tablet. I weighed 22 tablets and got that average. These are slightly leaner.

 

Does my math check out?

 

Unfortunately, once I started weighing tablets, I had to stabilize a bit, and I started using the heavier (weaker) tablets for the daytime doses and vice-versa, which is why my nighttime dose tonight is .3845 and not .3750.

[[Pa...]]

Hi hereforhelp,

 

I sure wish I could help you with the math, I don't have benzo brain anymore but it still goes all scrambled when I see numbers like this, I know someone who may be able to help though, he actually likes math. 

 

I sent him a PM last night so hopefully he'll check in soon.

 

Pamster