Considering Liquid DMT Titration of Klonopin

[[se...]]

Thanks, very good info, appreciate it. Will try 100 ml first. Yes that is what I understand that it will be a suspension. My approach will be targeting every 5 days to make a new batch and see how that goes.

 

This is what I will target using 1 0.5 mg pill with 100 ml of milk.

 

Day 1:  Make batch in morning by 11 am.

Day 1:  take first dosage at 11 pm. (24 ml)

Day 2:  take second dosage at 11 pm. (23.8 ml)

Day 3:  take third dosage at 11 pm. (23.6 ml)

Day 4:  take fourth dosage at 11 pm (23.4 ml)

Day 5:  Make next batch in morning by 11 am.

Repeat

[[Li...]]

Nothing from Libertas' claims or links suggest to me that that clonazepam from a tablet is going to significantly dissolve in whole milk, so I suggest considering your tablet deconstruction a suspension.

 

slownsteady: I would appreciate it if you would refrain from misrepresenting what I have written about clonazepam and milk.  I did not claim that molecules of clonazepam embedded with other ingredients in regular tablets dissolve when milk is added.  Instead, I presented the “milk hypothesis” shared by another member.  See below.

 

One of our members who earned an MD as well as a Ph.D. in pharmacology, explained the theory behind using milk as follows: Lipophilic drug molecules have an affinity for the fat molecules in milk. In non-homogenized milk, fat molecules are not evenly distributed; they rise to the top to form a layer of cream. The process of homogenization breaks the fat molecules down to a smaller size so this separation does not occur; the fat molecules (and hence the affiliated “lipid liking” drug molecules) are suspended throughout the milk.

[[sl...]]

Sounds good seekingtoheal!

 

I'm glad you decided to stick with the 100ml; I think that's a fairly conservative quantity of milk already, just as a matter of my opinion.

 

Are you going to consider holding on your new liquid dose, or start tapering right away? There might be some sense it holding for a few days to a week to make sure you're body is comfortable with this new approach; if your symptoms are escalating while you hold, I would suggest holding until you've fully adjusted to the liquid dose. I'm not sure how sensitive you are; this is just an idea I would consider if changing dosing methods.

 

I look forward to updates on your exploration. 

 

---

Nothing from Libertas' claims or links suggest to me that that clonazepam from a tablet is going to significantly dissolve in whole milk, so I suggest considering your tablet deconstruction a suspension.

 

slownsteady: I would appreciate it if you would refrain from misrepresenting what I have written about clonazepam and milk.  I did not claim that molecules of clonazepam embedded with other ingredients in regular tablets dissolve when milk is added.  Instead, I presented the “milk hypothesis” shared by another member.

 

Hi Libertas,

I'm not sure what you're trying to clarify here. Maybe you misread the sentence you quoted?

 

I did not misrepresent what you have written; I said you made claims and shared links, which you did. I said nothing about what those claims were other than that they do not "suggest to me that that clonazepam from a tablet is going to significantly dissolve in whole milk". My speculation derived from what you shared is not a representation of what you shared. 

[[Li...]]

Greetings, seekingtoheal.  After reviewing your taper plan, I have two suggestions for your consideration:

 

(1) Add 7-10 days at 24mL to the beginning of your taper for a “Transition to Liquid” evaluation.

(2) Add a strategic hold when you reach the 10% reduction in dose mark at 21.6mL. Or, if you wish to be conservative, when you reach the 5% reduction in dose mark at 22.8mL.

 

PS I apologize for not being able to complete this post last night. Other matters on the forum required my attention.

 

[[se...]]

Thanks all. Started liquid last night. I will hold for at least a few days at 24ml to gauge. Will keep all the good feedback in mind. I have been holding at .041 g (.121 mg) for 2 weeks now and still functional but feel like crud most of the time. Cannot say for certain I have been exactly at .121mg with the scale fluctuations of 0.001 g. I try to get it as exact as I can. Also I noted to my 0.5 mg pill weight has a high variation. Some weigh .17 g, some weigh 0.63 some weigh .175...widely varies across the board.

 

The one approach I like is the "certainty" of taking a whole 0.5 mg pill and creating a liquid suspension and as I understand getting a way more accurate dosage. Will see how I do.

 

My teva pill dissolves very well in the milk. As noted I make my batch in the morning and then start at night. Before taking I use a glass stirring rod to try to distribute the medication before withdrawing with the syringe.

 

 

[[Li...]]

Thank you for the good news update, seekingtoheal.  It sounds like you doing the right things to maximize the likelihood of a successful transition to a milk-based homebrew liquid. FYI ... if you have been taking 0.121mg in tablet form, you may have already made a slight reduction in dose to 0.120mg in liquid form. Sending all good thoughts and best wishes your way for a successful taper!

[[Gu...]]

Hi All/SeekingtoHeal,

 

I just saw these posts and wanted to chime in.  I see that you're on your way, SeekingtoHeal, to doing a final milk taper (I have been on a milk taper since the very start)!

 

As far as the suspension goes, there really is no problem with dropping the pill directly into the milk, because even with Teva brand pills, shaking the container lightly a few times over a course of several hours suffices to create a good suspension.

 

I am at .114, and am reducing at .001mg/day, so I'm just a little ahead of you- we should be off at approximately the same time- please know that you're not alone; at least for me, the milk taper has gone VERY well, with very few problems.

 

You seem to have had a lot of great help here already, so I'll just say Good Luck and Godspeed!  

 

 

[[se...]]

Gumbygirl, thank you. And kudos to you as well.

 

So looking to the finish line!!

[[se...]]

On my fourth day of milk titration at 0.120 mg and feeling it. CNS is very amp'd up. Not sure if it is the transition to liquid that is affecting me. I think my milk approach is accurate. I put 1 0.5 mg tablet (will have to assume all pills are 0.5 mg even though they are different weights) as noted in with 100 ml of 8% milk (measured using a measuring cup) in a 8 ounce canning jar by 11 am in the morning.  Usually stir with a stirring rod or gently shake a few times throughout the day. Then I withdraw using a syringe that has a domed plunger tip and I measure to the top line. So i think I am doing it a accurate way.

 

Will stay at 0.120 mg for now and hopefully in a few days can start to cut down. Using 3 days out of the batch as the 4 day pull would be scraping the bottom of the jar.

 

thanks,

 

seeking

[[Li...]]

I’m sorry you are feeling some discomfort.  You’ve made two changes in your taper (a change in dosage form and a slight reduction in dose) so an uptick in symptoms is not unexpected.  A common withdrawal pattern reported by members tapering clonazepam is an uptick in symptoms within 3-5 days after a taper change followed by a diminishment/stabilization of symptoms around 7-10 days later.  If your symptoms are not tolerable, one option to consider is a slight updose — Senior Moderator badsocref often suggests a 10% updose when changing from all tablets to all liquid.

[[se...]]

Libertas thanks for your feedback. I was hoping holding at .121 mg for 2 weeks would help. If I can help it I do not want to updose but will not rule it out. Will stay at .120 mg and hope to stabilize and then move forward.

 

I hope you are doing well with your taper.

[[sl...]]

Your method sounds good to me seekingtoheal. I assume you are giving your mixture a vigorous shake or stirring immediately before withdrawing your dose from near the middle of the volume of liquid. I suggest not being too hasty about taking further reductions until you're feeling stable; I think a sudden transition between drug forms can be destabilizing and it's hard to quantify just how much without watching my symptoms over a significant period of time.

 

If your symptoms are not tolerable, one option to consider is a slight updose — Senior Moderator badsocref often suggests a 10% updose when changing from all tablets to all liquid.

As far as I am aware, "Senior Moderator badoscref" has also never tapered a benzo. I would disregard the suggestion of a "slight" 10% updose as being too formulaic for symptom-based tapering.

 

I agree with Libertas' other mentions, including that changing two tapering variables at once can be confusing. The symptom peak timeline Libertas mentions is congruent with my experiences on clonazepam, but I think the recovery timeline can vary widely depending on a number of variables.

 

I also agree that if your symptoms are severely debilitating, an updose might a good option. I would consider my last previously stable dose and hold at that until stabilized. If unable to recover at my previously stable dose after two weeks on the new drug form, or sooner if things are going really sideways, I would suspect my new drug form to be either too inconsistent in dosing accuracy or not bioequivalent enough for my rate of transition. In either case I would stabilize on my previous drug form and then it would be a question for me of if and how to trial the new drug form in a more gradual manner.

 

Hopefully none of this updosing business will matter in your case seekingtoheal! I suspect that you will stabilize by just holding on liquid. I suggest staying at your current dose until your feel a full recovery from these increased withdrawal symptoms. 

[[Li...]]

You are most welcome, seeekingtoheal. Based on what you’ve shared, it sounds like the two-week hold at 0.121mg did help.  However, the latest uptick in symptoms is your body’s way of signaling it has definitely “noticed” one or both of the changes you made. Remaining at 0.120mg for several more days is a good strategy.  If your symptoms don’t settle down and you would like suggestions on other options to consider (e.g. incremental updosing), please let me know.

[[se...]]

Thanks slow.

[[se...]]

Thanks Libertas.

[[se...]]

I decided on 9/24 I was doing well enough to make my first cut down from 0.120 mg. Will try to do a 0.001 mg drop/day taper to start to see.

 

Currently at 0.118 mg. Will track my process in my Restarting Generic Klonopin Taper thread under the withdrawal support section of the forum.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=253971.0

 

thanks to all for your support and assistance.

 

seeking.

 

[[sl...]]

Hi seekingtoheal,

Thanks for this update! I'm wishing you the best on your home-stretch. 

[[Li...]]

Thank you for another good news update, seekingtoheal.  I look forward to following your progress on your withdrawal thread — your willingness to share your experience so others can learn from it is much appreciated.

[[se...]]

Hi seekingtoheal,

Thanks for this update! I'm wishing you the best on your home-stretch. 

 

Thanks slow. Transitioning to liquid did hit me but I still think it is the best approach at the dose I am at. Currently at 0.115 mg and held for a few days and am going to try to get moving again. No way I could do dry DMT at the scale fluctuations at this dose...if I am off 0.001 g then instead of thinking I am doing a 2% drop that day it could easily be 4%.

[[sl...]]

Thanks slow. Transitioning to liquid did hit me but I still think it is the best approach at the dose I am at. Currently at 0.115 mg and held for a few days and am going to try to get moving again. No way I could do dry DMT at the scale fluctuations at this dose...if I am off 0.001 g then instead of thinking I am doing a 2% drop that day it could easily be 4%.

 

I think you made a wise adjustment. 

[Guest [Ro...]]

Seeking,

 

I've read this entire thread as I'm interested in the liquid taper.  Your approach seems very similar to how I think (comprehensive, detail oriented) so thank you! I also have a big concern about the waste but I do not drink cow's milk.  Do you happen to know if I could use almond milk or hemp milk instead?

 

At this point in my taper my concerns are:

1) Getting an accurate dose.  I feel like my scale is getting less accurate as I lower my dose.  Also, my doctor mistakenly prescribed me 1.0 MG instead of my normal .5 MG.  I really don't want to go back and ask her to fix it because less interaction is better with my doc.  But, that means that my weight is even smaller. 

 

2) Waste.  I would like to use my K in the most efficient way so that I do not need to ask for refills.  I have some .5 pills left and plenty of 1.0 to get me through the finish line. 

 

Any advice is appreciated by all the amazing BB in this thread!

[[se...]]

Seeking,

 

I've read this entire thread as I'm interested in the liquid taper.  Your approach seems very similar to how I think (comprehensive, detail oriented) so thank you! I also have a big concern about the waste but I do not drink cow's milk.  Do you happen to know if I could use almond milk or hemp milk instead?

 

At this point in my taper my concerns are:

1) Getting an accurate dose.  I feel like my scale is getting less accurate as I lower my dose.  Also, my doctor mistakenly prescribed me 1.0 MG instead of my normal .5 MG.  I really don't want to go back and ask her to fix it because less interaction is better with my doc.  But, that means that my weight is even smaller. 

 

2) Waste.  I would like to use my K in the most efficient way so that I do not need to ask for refills.  I have some .5 pills left and plenty of 1.0 to get me through the finish line. 

 

Any advice is appreciated by all the amazing BB in this thread!

 

RodgerThat, not sure on almond or hemp milk. What I have read is that the fat molecules in whole milk helps break down the tablet. There are others on this site much more well versed than me on what to use for liquid titration and other formulations to use. I have seen some recommendations to mortar and pestle the pill to breakdown and then transfer to liquid but you need to make sure all comes over. You should start a separate thread.

 

Yes, I stopped with the scale due to the fluctuations. Since scales are more accurate at higher weights you might cut your 1.0 into halves or possibly quarters and use those for your liquid titration.

 

In regard to waste, I am wasting some of my pill dosage but not sure that can be helped. Based on my calculations I have enough pills to finish unless I have to hold for a extended period of time which I hopefully will not have to as I want to be off this med. Since I am using milk 3 days per tablet seems to be the optimal usage timeframe.

 

thx

seeking

[Guest [Ro...]]

 

RodgerThat, not sure on almond or hemp milk. What I have read is that the fat molecules in whole milk helps break down the tablet. There are others on this site much more well versed than me on what to use for liquid titration and other formulations to use. I have seen some recommendations to mortar and pestle the pill to breakdown and then transfer to liquid but you need to make sure all comes over. You should start a separate thread.

 

Yes, I stopped with the scale due to the fluctuations. Since scales are more accurate at higher weights you might cut your 1.0 into halves or possibly quarters and use those for your liquid titration.

 

In regard to waste, I am wasting some of my pill dosage but not sure that can be helped. Based on my calculations I have enough pills to finish unless I have to hold for a extended period of time which I hopefully will not have to as I want to be off this med. Since I am using milk 3 days per tablet seems to be the optimal usage timeframe.

 

thx

seeking

 

Thank you for your response, seeking!  I was thinking that I could cut the 1MG pills in half for liquid titration and quarters is a good idea.  I hadn't thought about that.  It helps to understand your process (i.e. 3 days, etc) because we are currently on a very similar dose.

 

Are you planning to titrate all the way down to .001 or will you jump off at some point?

[[se...]]

That is a decision I have been struggling with.