HELP! Ativan Liquid Titration

[[Ch...]]

Since the variability of these 2 independent tests is within just .03mg of each other - especially for our purposes - this data confirms benzos are indeed water soluble, albeit poorly so. 

 

One simply needs more water than if they were using ethanol or propylene glycol as a solvent.  It's just a different path to arriving at the same place. 

 

sierra 

 

...which is a 60% variation!

 

sierra7:  How did you do your liquid titration? The recipe posted in the beginning of this thread? This is all so new and confusing to me and can use all the help I can get. Thanks!

[[ha...]]

I've been waiting several days for the PG. The package from Amazon was damaged and I had to reorder it.

 

I got impatient and decided to drop from 0.50mg to 0.25. This is my 4th day and so far, so good. Almost no symptoms.

 

I'm going to hold here while I wait for the PG. BUT, I may pm Sierra for some advice.

 

Thank you so very much for your help! I will keep you posted!

[[si...]]

Since the variability of these 2 independent tests is within just .03mg of each other - especially for our purposes - this data confirms benzos are indeed water soluble, albeit poorly so. 

 

One simply needs more water than if they were using ethanol or propylene glycol as a solvent.  It's just a different path to arriving at the same place. 

 

sierra 

 

...which is a 60% variation!

 

Solubility fluctuates depending on temperature, pressure, etc. it is not a constant.  So, it's valid to arrive at two different results if variables differ.  This is entirely normal and to be expected.

 

This may help everyone better understand:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/cheminter/chapter/how-temperature-influences-solubility/

[[bu...]]

Since the variability of these 2 independent tests is within just .03mg of each other - especially for our purposes - this data confirms benzos are indeed water soluble, albeit poorly so. 

 

One simply needs more water than if they were using ethanol or propylene glycol as a solvent.  It's just a different path to arriving at the same place. 

 

sierra 

 

...which is a 60% variation!

 

Solubility fluctuates depending on temperature, pressure, etc. it is not a constant. So, it's valid to arrive at two different results if variables differ.  This is entirely normal and to be expected.

 

This may help everyone better understand:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/cheminter/chapter/how-temperature-influences-solubility/

 

Absolutely!  so even of the .08 (or .05) numbers are valid, they are only valid at specific, standard conditons, temp, Ph balance, etc.

 

Using a proven solvent like alcohol or PG provides a substantial margin of safety that would not otherwise be present.

 

I will always advocate for a method that offers the greatest opportunity for success.

 

To be clear, folks definitely should choose a protocol they are comfortable with.  And yes, some folks will be able to taper following a less-than-optimal procedure.  (and some folks will successfully  taper off with no real plan or procedure at all)  But I would recommend, and choose, a method that is both backed by solid science and research, and has worked very well for many BBs.

[[si...]]

Since the variability of these 2 independent tests is within just .03mg of each other - especially for our purposes - this data confirms benzos are indeed water soluble, albeit poorly so. 

 

One simply needs more water than if they were using ethanol or propylene glycol as a solvent.  It's just a different path to arriving at the same place. 

 

sierra 

 

...which is a 60% variation!

 

Solubility fluctuates depending on temperature, pressure, etc. it is not a constant. So, it's valid to arrive at two different results if variables differ.  This is entirely normal and to be expected.

 

This may help everyone better understand:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/cheminter/chapter/how-temperature-influences-solubility/

 

Absolutely!  so even of the .08 (or .05) numbers are valid, they are only valid at specific, standard conditons, temp, Ph balance, etc.

 

Using a proven solvent like alcohol or PG provides a substantial margin of safety that would not otherwise be present.

 

I will always advocate for a method that offers the greatest opportunity for success.

 

To be clear, folks definitely should choose a protocol they are comfortable with.  And yes, some folks will be able to taper following a less-than-optimal procedure.  (and some folks will successfully  taper off with no real plan or procedure at all)  But I would recommend, and choose, a method that is both backed by solid science and research, and has worked very well for many BBs.

 

All of the above is solid science and research.  Nothing unsafe or unsound about it.  It's clear, you have your preference.  To discount others as unsound or unsafe limits the field of reasonable possibilities for everyone.

[[jo...]]

Out of curiosity, I went searching to see if I could find another corroborating source validating benzo solubility in water.  Here's an old quote from fellow BB member SG57 referencing Jouyban, showing benzo water solubility data in the first table row:

 

Just posting this data from Jouyban in table form for reference.

 

The following table shows the solubility of the various benzos in ethanol/water mixtures from 0% (i.e., plain water) to 100% ethanol.  Key: V=Valium; A=Ativan; Lib=Librium; K=Klonopin; X=Xanax.

 

Units = mg/ml

% Alc.  V          A        Lib      K          X

0        0.04    0.05    0.11    0.03    0.04

10      0.11    0.11    0.19    0.04

20      0.21    0.23    0.29    0.08

30      0.57    0.77    0.80    0.20

40      1.90    3.51    2.89    0.60

50      4.76    4.19    7.48    1.43

60    11.17    8.04    12.48    2.64

70    21.31  13.09    22.89    4.22

80    28.67  17.33    31.81    5.65

90    38.36    6.64    31.72    6.18

100  26.07  10.89    19.46    5.11

 

Sources:

Abolghasem Jouyban *#, Javad Shokri †, Mohammad Barzegar-Jalali †, Davoud Hassanzadeh ‡, William E. Acree , Jr.§, Taravat Ghafourian Δ and Ali Nokhodchi Δ, Solubility of Chlordiazepoxide, Diazepam, and Lorazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 303.2 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (7), pp 2142–2145, April 22, 2009.

 

Ali Shayanfar †, Mohammad A. A. Fakhree §, William E. Acree , Jr.∥ and Abolghasem Jouyban *‡, Solubility of Lamotrigine, Diazepam, and Clonazepam in Ethanol + Water Mixtures at 298.15 K, J. Chem. Eng. Data, 2009, 54 (3), pp 1107–1109, December 22, 2008

 

  http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.40 (scroll down to reply #46)

 

However, the biggest concerns, formulating only with water are 1) propagation of microbial activity, given a lack of any preservative, particularly if left at room temperature for weeks and using tap water with oral syringes dipping into the solution multiple times.  2) drug destabilization due to hydrolysis, which would make the benzo lose it's potency over time. 

 

Only lab testing would prove out details as to how long these issue would take to arise, how much of a problem they would create, etc. 

 

sierra 

 

Hi Sierra,

Thank you for the information.

 

When we have a look at this table it is interesting to notice that for ativan (lorazepam) the solubility in the case of pure water is 0.05 mg/ml and in the case of 10% alcohol 0.11 mg/ml.

 

So the difference is small, only a factor 2. Bigger differences only occur at higher alcohol percentages.

But in the case of vodka titration the alcohol percentage is usually 8 percent, because the alcohol percentage of vodka  is 40 %

So for this alcohol percentage of 8% the maximum concentration for the benzo would be less than 0.11 mg/ml.

The vodka method usually tries to make a concentration of 0.1 mg/ml though, which is consequently very risky.

 

It is very questionable if it would be possible to reach this  0.1 mg/ml, even more so because generally not much is said about the minimal time necessary to dissolve completely or the temperature of the water and vodka and necessity of shaking or stirring enough.

Even if it would dissolve completely, putting the jar in the fridge would very probably partially let go the benzo out of dissolution.

This could be one of the reasons why many buddies say they are having problems with the transition to liquid titration.

Another reason could be some properties of the solving agent, so alcohol, propylene glycol, milk or other.

 

It seems to me that the method I am using has some advantages in these respects.

The maximum concentration for the benzo in pure water is 0.05 mg/ml but I am only making a concentration of 0.01 mg/ml.

Moreover I say something about  the necessity of using water at room temperature, and of waiting long enough and shaking thoroughly.

As a matter of fact because of the poor water solubility this is of particular importance for this method .

 

Probably, after the solution has been obtained with water at room temperature and waiting long enough the jar could be put into the fridge for some days, because of the safety factor of 5.

I would not put  it at a too cold place though, so not at the back or coldest place of the fridge.

 

In fact I have done it once for one night, as an experiment, and I had the impression that it made no difference.

 

Finally, I am not saying a pure water titration is the best way to do it. It is just another method to choose from. Everyone should choose the method he or she likes best and I liked this method because I wanted to exclude possible side effects of the solvent and because this method allows me to use a 50 ml syringe. This way it is very easy to achieve a high accuracy.

 

I myself noticed the small influence of the vodka and I did not like it and wanted to avoid it if possible.