Liquid Taper Update

[[pu...]]

SoberHope - thank you for your response.  Yes I think I will hold for a few more days and enjoy this window.  I agree listening to my body which I have not been doing lately but like you say I will taper right up to zero.  Its not a race with anyone except ourselves at times.

 

Purple

[[So...]]

Yes Purple! We are all doing this together and our experiences are different but we all have the same goal and that is what gives us a team-player feeling, supporting each other through this journey. I find the more I support others, the better I feel about my own taper and situation. It gets me away from focusing on my s/x and how I'm feeling minute to minute, hour to hour.

[[pu...]]

Builder any suggestions since you have been were I am any input is appreciated

 

Purple

[[bo...]]

Builder any suggestions since you have been were I am any input is appreciated

 

Purple

the thing with DMLT is that you continue to  decrease the same % and  and  as your dose changes  you are actually decreasing much more than the  % you are decreasing and it eventually  catches up with you... its better to recalculate your % with your  current dose after your holds... IMO

[[bu...]]

Builder any suggestions since you have been were I am any input is appreciated

 

Purple

the thing with DMLT is that you continue to  decrease the same % and  and  as your dose changes  you are actually decreasing much more than the  % you are decreasing and it eventually  catches up with you... its better to recalculate your % with your  current dose after your holds... IMO

 

That's correct.  As long as you maintain the level percentage dose, based on you original starting dose, you are constantly lowering you actual mg dose.

[[pu...]]

Okay another update this is day 11 of holding after I dropped 17% over a 42 day period but wow was I hit bad.  Someone mentioned to hold for at least 14 days and then only drop 2.5-3%. I just don't know on how many days to hold as I was doing okay holding 10 days and then another drop which is how I got to 17% without really noticing it.  I dose 3 times a day and sitting at 0.198mg left to taper. 

 

Seems I was okay when I started the liquid taper in Jan 2018 and now as I am getting lower it is getting harder.  If only the anxiety would go away as I think it is chemical anxiety and part of the w/d from benzo's am I correct?

 

Anyone else that did a huge drop and then held and did you feel better once starting again.

 

Purple

[[wa...]]

What is your reason for wanting to do a cut and hold taper. You have the liquid, why do you not want to microtaper?

[[pu...]]

I was using doing a micro taper at the beginning for the first 2 - 1/2 months everything was going great and then I was hit with a bad wave so started tweaking and like I said this last time I was tapering 2.5% every 2nd day and again everything was great for 42 days and then hit really bad.  So someone suggested holding for at least 14 days to stabilize and start again.  It just seems when I micro taper it feels good but then builds up and I get hit so thought if I drop 2.5-3% and held say 10 days and continued with this and see how that goes.  It is getting harder and harder as I get lower.  I have liquid tapered from 0.75mg down to 0.198mg since Jan 2018.  Prior was dry cutting up to 0.75mg from 2mg.  Been on about 3 years.

 

Purple

[[So...]]

Hi Purple -

 

I made a 20% cut (by accident) over 7 days and also got hit. I am holding here for 7-10 days until I feel stable then doing my DLMT MUCH slower - you need to slow down. I was secretly excited that my mistake got me from 2.9mg V to 2.3mg V but now I am holding and holding...

 

Hold until you feel stable then taper slowly. I would do the DLMT personally but that is only because small cuts every day are not felt as much as bigger cuts every few days.

 

You will figure this out and do great!

[[wa...]]

I was using doing a micro taper at the beginning for the first 2 - 1/2 months everything was going great and then I was hit with a bad wave so started tweaking and like I said this last time I was tapering 2.5% every 2nd day and again everything was great for 42 days and then hit really bad.  So someone suggested holding for at least 14 days to stabilize and start again.  It just seems when I micro taper it feels good but then builds up and I get hit so thought if I drop 2.5-3% and held say 10 days and continued with this and see how that goes.  It is getting harder and harder as I get lower.  I have liquid tapered from 0.75mg down to 0.198mg since Jan 2018.  Prior was dry cutting up to 0.75mg from 2mg.  Been on about 3 years.

 

Purple

 

Yeah, 2.5% every other day is still 15% / 2 weeks. Too fast, for sure. Maybe 0.5% every day? That's 7% / 2 weeks. And recalculate the 0.5% from your current dose every once in a while, so it doesn't get to be too much. Does this make sense?

[[pu...]]

Yes makes sense so might try doing the 2.5% and hold for 10 days and see how that goes. 

 

The question I have on micro tapering every day doesn't that also add up after a few days as that is what happened when I first started doing that and went 2 1/2 months and then was hit.

 

Purple

 

[[wa...]]

What I was trying to explain is that the reason you had issues with microtapering is that you were cutting too much each day. The problem is not the method, but the rate. If you were cutting 2.5% every other day, that is 15% over 2 weeks. That is too fast whether you taper daily or cut and hold. A daily taper is always going to be more gentle on your system, and will allow you to tolerate a faster rate, but that rate must be within a reasonable range. I would recommend 5-7% every two weeks, but spread out into daily cuts. If you want to tell me the recipe for your liquid, I can tell you how you can do this.

[[bu...]]

... you were cutting too much each day. The problem is not the method, but the rate. If you were cutting 2.5% every other day, that is 15% over 2 weeks. That is too fast whether you taper daily or cut and hold. A daily taper is always going to be more gentle on your system, and will allow you to tolerate a faster rate, but that rate must be within a reasonable range. I would recommend 5-7% every two weeks, but spread out into daily cuts. If you want to tell me the recipe for your liquid, I can tell you how you can do this.

 

:thumbsup:

[[pu...]]

... you were cutting too much each day. The problem is not the method, but the rate. If you were cutting 2.5% every other day, that is 15% over 2 weeks. That is too fast whether you taper daily or cut and hold. A daily taper is always going to be more gentle on your system, and will allow you to tolerate a faster rate, but that rate must be within a reasonable range. I would recommend 5-7% every two weeks, but spread out into daily cuts. If you want to tell me the recipe for your liquid, I can tell you how you can do this.

 

 

Hi my suspension is prepared by my pharmacy.  I have 2 bottles one is 0.1mg/ml (stronger solution for main dose) other bottle is 0.01mg/ml (weaker solution used for tapering).  I have 2 syringes I will try and attach here.  The one marked from 0.1 to 0.9 is the one I use to taper 0.01mg/ml.  The larger one marked 3ml to 0ml is used for the main dose 0.1mg/ml.  I will try and attach one sheet from my taper schedule that was prepared by my pharmacy when I started the suspension when I was at 0.75mg. 

 

So I started micro tapering one line item everyday and that equates to 0.003mg/ml taper per day.  I dose 3 times a day Then started tweaking as I got hit with a wave. 

 

I am sitting at 0.192mg right now just dropped 2.5%. 

 

I cannot find a way to attach the syringes or my schedule?  Do you know of a way?

 

 

Purple

[[pu...]]

Wavesonshore did you read my last message

[[wa...]]

To attach documents or images you would have to host them online and then post a link. If you want to Google "free image hosting no account" you can find a site that will allow you to host things without having to give them any information.

 

But I don't know if that is necessary. I understand what syringes you have. I am not sure I understand how much you are dosing each day. 0.003 mg/ml is not an amount, it's a ratio. Exactly how much are you taking, in ml, out of your two different bottles each day (current dose) and how much are you reducing by out of the taper bottle?

 

Also, it sounds like you are using a suspension not a solution, am I right? Are your liquids thick?

[[pu...]]

Yes its a suspension and yes thick.  I don't know in mil as they told me its 0.0.003mg/ml so I am thinking its a small portion of a mil.  Like I mentioned the small syringe has the 0-1ml markings.  I draw to say to 0.9 - 3 times a day and they said that is 0.003mg/ml per day taper so each dose is 0.001mg/ml so a portion of a mil right? 

 

Purple

[[pu...]]

Oh and out of the stronger strength right now I am taking shows 0.6ml on the large syringe just under the 0.5ml so that is 0.18mg left to taper

[[wa...]]

None of these numbers match up. If you are taking:

 

0.6 ml 3x/day (using 0.1mg/1ml) = 0.18 mg

+

0.9 ml 3x/day (using 0.01mg/1ml) = 0.027 MG

=

0.207 MG K

 

Since you said your current dose is 0.192 MG K, either I misunderstood what you explained about how you are dosing, or you are mis-dosing somehow.

 

If you can clear this up and get on the same page, I am happy to help. Please try and re-explain what exact amounts you are taking of each of the two suspensions, and what your pharmacist was suggesting you cut to next. Please explain everything in ml, since that is how you are measuring it out. Thanks.

[[pu...]]

I know its confusing my I don't know the ml as I am following how the pharmacy told me to taper here is the schedule on one as they printed off for me.  Right now sitting at 0.18mg left to taper so will start there

 

I dose 3 times

 

Strong Solution 0.1/mg/ml (large syringe)      Taper Solution 0.01mg/ml  (small syringe)      Mg per Dose                      Total/Day

          0.6                                                                            0                                                    0.06                              0.18

          0.5                                                                            0.9                                                  0.059                            0.177

          0.5                                                                            0.8                                                  0.058                            0.174

          0.5                                                                            0.7                                                  0.057                            0.171

          0.5                                                                            0.6                                                  0.056                            0.168

          0.5                                                                            0.5                                                  0.055                            0.165

          0.5                                                                            0.4                                                  0.054                            0.162

          0.5                                                                            0.3                                                  0.053                            0.159

          0.5                                                                            0.2                                                  0.052                            0.156

          0.5                                                                            0.1                                                  0.051                            0.153

          0.5                                                                              0                                                    0.05                              0.15

 

So I reduce by 0.003mg/ml per day.

 

Purple

then I continue from there

           

 

[[wa...]]

Okay, I get it. Your schedule is having you cut 0.003 MG per day by removing 0.3 ml of your dilute solution daily. This would be WAY too fast. I will show you why.

 

0.003 (mg reduced per day) × 14 (days) = 0.042 (mg reduced in 2 weeks)

 

0.042 (mg reduced in 2 weeks) ÷ 0.18 (mg current dose) = 0.23 (23% cut from current dose in 2 weeks)

 

What I would recommend, if you want to try daily microtapering, is that you reduce 0.001 mg from a different dose each day. So, on day 1, instead of reducing 0.1 ml of your "tapering bottle" from all 3 of your doses, you would only remove one 0.1 ml from your MORNING DOSE ONLY. The next day, day 2, you would reduce 0.1 ml from your MIDDAY DOSE ONLY. On day 3, you would reduce 0.1 ml from your NIGHT DOSE ONLY. On day 4, you remove from your morning dose again. And so forth. This would be a reduction rate of 7% every 2 weeks, much more reasonable than 23%, don't you think?

[[pu...]]

Hi there

 

I do not think you still understand how my measurements work.  On the small syringe it is a 1ml syringe so by dropping as I mentioned 0.9 that is only a portion of 1ml.  If I dropped the 10 days as in the schedule then it would be 1ml that I have dropped or 0.03mg of the 0.18mg dose that I am starting with so it is now 0.15mg left to taper. 

 

So 0.18 - 0.15 = 0.03 divided by 0.18 = 0.166666 x 100% = 16% which is to fast for me right now I did that for the first 2 1/2 months and no issues and then was slammed so have tweaked different ways.  Right now I am trying dropping 2 lines example 0.9 - 0.8 = 2.5% and holding for 10-14 days.  Seems not to bad. 

 

Purple

[[wa...]]

I do understand your measurements. You are removing 0.003 mg per day, spread over your 3 doses, removing 0.1 ml from each of your three doses every day. If you multiply that by 14 (because rates are traditionally calculated per two weeks, not 10 days), that is 0.042 mg, which is 23% of 0.18.

 

I was just trying to help, because I have found daily tapering to be much gentler than cut and hold. The recommendation I made is a way that you could taper daily at a safer rate.

 

It sounds like you want to stay with cut and hold and really are not open to a different approach at this time. Just know, when you get to the point where you don't want to suffer anymore, that there are ways to do it. Of course, this recommendation only works at around this dose, so you will need to refigure the math if you decide to switch at a lower dose.

 

Good luck!

[[pu...]]

Hey sorry I think I am understanding now when I calculated as you did over 14 days never thought of it that way.  So what you are saying is only reduce one of the 3 doses not 3 per day reductions never thought of that way.  I missed that when you were showing me as I was looking at 0.1ml reduction and did not think that is what I was reducing.  So is 0.01mg/ml = 0.1 ml?

 

I appreciate your input just trying to wrap my brain around the concept

 

Purple

[[pu...]]

So if I went this route I would have to watch and count the days I did the 0.001.mg/ml in order to be able to drop the main stronger dose