Any Light W/D Symptoms?

[Guest [Kr...]]

I'm not so sure it is necessarily a bad thing to "scare the snot out of people" regarding long-term benzo use. It seems that many of the people posting on this web site were unfortunately unaware of the long term effects of benzo use when they were first prescribed them. Perhaps if they were fully informed by their physicians at the start, they would not be having the problems they have today.

 

I know that I was very motivated to get off benzos after a short period of time precisely because of the scary things I read about them.

 

Kristin

[[si...]]

i'm not on a crusade - but let me tell you what i got from benzo's - well i got my large intestine removed, i got elevated liver enzymes, i got stressed kidneys and that is just what i know about.

 

ok then after all that i got threatened that if i didn't take other drugs i could not received this drug i was addicted to.

 

it is much more important to treat the source then to cover symptoms - it is important people understand this or no body improves except sales reps from drug companies.

 

now if people wish to take drugs and they feel that drugs help - i don't say anything - but if they want to get off - i'm here and i will help.

 

the people i am most concerned with are those who have no support from their doctor at all and feel to whipped to come here for help - and really if they are being cut off - what we can do is kinda limited - many will under go some serious withdrawals - and for those who do not - of course i am happy for them.

 

i don't want to scare people - it does not help - nor does it help to pretend everything is fine when they are falling apart.

 

i am withdrawing much faster then some - and i need encouragement not scary stories - cause i have no choice - peoples circumstances are different and those differences need to be respected.

 

 

[[Je...]]

Well my appointment didn't go too well, she didn't refill my temazepam, she didn't like the idea of me opening up the capsules because the medicine would go directly into my bloodstream too fast? WHO CARES?  Anyways she agreed to prescribe me doses of valium as needed per week if I keep her advised of my progress.  She wants to start me on 10 mgs of valium even though the ashton method starts on 14mgs? Colin do I take the valium with the 7.5 of restoril or just switch over? She seems to think I can just switch, it's pretty much a benzo so I'll be fine.  She really just doesn't understand.  Please HELP.  She advised me not to mix them....but if I do I will now be GOING UP in dose?

[[da...]]

I think most people treated by a responsible doctor do not have problems with withdrawal. People who do have problems are usually kept in darkness from knowledge. Of the millions of people who are on benzos only a very small percentage will visit a site like this.

 

Like anything in life excess of anything can be destructive. After treatment from irresponsible doctors that left me feeling as sick as a dog I started searching on line for the answers. Unfortunately since there is such a profit in Benzo use most of the information was inaccurate or scary with no real answers. I became almost obsessed with finding the answers until I ran out of sites to search.  I then just started to taper and its going pretty good.  Taking it slow is the only way to do this. I’m only about 1/4 of the way into my taper and the only noticeable side effect is occasional insomnia. Last night I slept 8 hours so hope the insomnia is only temporary after a cut.

 

The responsible doctor treats the patient not with his own dogma but rather with respect of each individual and their personal uniqueness. The responsible doctor understands all aspects of prescribing a medication. Not only its marketed purpose but also possible side effects, tolerance, withdrawal and protracted withdrawal. Since the actual time with the doctor is very short the responsible doctor encourages reading and other tools of knowledge which can help a treatment plan.

 

The irresponsible doctor usually causes more overall harm to the patient then good. The irresponsible doctor has a practice whose purpose is to not only making a profit but to do it in the easiest way possible. His patient asks no questions and is very compliant with any medication or treatment plan. Any form of knowledge that could questions his authority is strictly prohibited. The Ashton method is considered rubbish by most doctors not because of its content but rather it is a PHD questioning the authority of a MD. The irresponsible doctor prescribes medication that is in his own best interest. They prescribe for the moment to make an “easy patient” with no concern about tolerance, or withdrawal. When these occur and cause symptoms the doctor instead of taking responsibility for the medication he prescribed only changes the diagnoses and prescribes more medication.

 

There is no need to question authority only verify it. If that is discouraged then question it.

Dave

 

 

If we value independence, if we are disturbed by the growing conformity of knowledge, of values, of attitudes, which our present system induces, then we may wish to set up conditions of learning which make for uniqueness, for self-direction, and for self-initiated learning. Carl Rogers

 

 

[Guest [am...]]

 

Ampersand writes, "I know that clonazepam is very nasty from my experience. You are saturated with it..."

 

Thanks guys. It really "helps"!

 

Well, I'm not here to have my ego stroked.  The reasons why you, Mr. Ten, are taking benzos & anti-depressants are unclear.  It is a personal choice however.  I too felt at the beginning of my W/D that some folks here were scaring me with too many cautious statements about seizures and the likes, making things worse than they really are.  Since I've gone through worse W/D symptoms several years ago, I can't dismiss the fact that benzos are dangerous business, sometimes therapeutic, but largely detrimental in the long run (unless there is some medical condition that is SO serious that it requires benzos).  This is no friggin' party.  Physical and psychological addiction is nothing to be proud of.  If the truth seems negative, that's too bad. 

[[si...]]

you know sometimes all that is needed is a group hug.

 

we have to remember most of us are going thru withdrawals - most if not all have made a commitment that is very brave - may be difficult and we need and deserve support.

 

i woke up today and realized i am bitter - i am disappointed - i am alone - and i am or have lost all trust in most people, most professions and i am really really really alone.

 

my faith - my hope - my trust and my body is broken - we really need to accept and respect each others realities - cause life is hard - doctors have betrayed us - mental health providers have betrayed us - we have been drugged family and friendships no doubt have become compromised - lets all at least understand that about each other and offer support for our truths.

 

we all want the same thing - to be drug free - some have understanding doctors - many do not so we can share information, share what helps - but in the end we have to do what we must do how we can do it.

 

[[...]]

Colin,

 

You are not intentionally or knowingly a fearmongering website, yet the most alarming contents have a way of standing out such that that is the effect for so many people in vulnerable, uniquely malleable mental state. I stand by the position that all terrifying quotes and even user-generated content carry some unmistakable disclaimer, and furthermore that it be in a prominent place--such as News. That is, unless of course, BBo is populated by what I have (affectionately, believe it or not) deemed Bregginites and this is largely an anti-psychiatry website.

 

If such is the case, then just disregard eventhing I suggested.

 

Ten

[[Co...]]

I think most people treated by a responsible doctor do not have problems with withdrawal. Some that do are kept in darkness from knowledge. Of the millions of people who are on benzos only a very small percentage will visit a site like this.

 

Hi Dave,

 

I think you underestimate the scale of the problem. There are huge numbers of people that drift through their whole lives on benzos, but never really living and feeling. Many of them might try to quit (too quickly, perhaps by following their doctor's instructions) and are instructed to reinstate their benzos because their underlying condition has returned. The truth is, almost certainly, that they are hooked and experienced withdrawal symptoms, not a return of their anxiety or insomnia. After all, it is well understood that benzo's anxiolytic effects last for just a few months, and their hypnotic effects just a few weeks.

 

At the same time, it is possible for people to over estimate the problems of withdrawal when they visit somewhere like here. 99% of our members are here because of real problems they have already experienced, and are looking for hep and answers. A few though will have heard something from elsewhere, have never tried quitting, and are looking for 'the truth'. The truth is that all those that have quit with few problems never search out a site like this, so they are virtually unrepresented here. This can lead people who have never tried quitting to take an unnecessarily pessimistic viewpoint of how withdrawal will affect them. Unless they have already experienced problems tapering off benzos, they stand a good chance of getting off with few problems (a 50-50 chance might be a very rough ball-park estimate, but no one knows the true figure). Of those that remain, the vast majority, too, can withdraw without too many problems, so long as they taper off at sensible rate, and benefit from real support from somewhere.

 

I am open to suggestions about how balance information with optimism. It can be very diffcult to combine the two.

[Guest [Kr...]]

Hi Colin:

 

I think it is critical to have factual information about benzo side effects and withdrawal on your web site and I thank you for doing so. If people are not getting the information from their physicians or mental health providers, then your web site does people a great service by providing factual, credible information.

 

Perhaps, though, to answer some of the concerns being voiced here, this more serious information might be placed on a separate page rather than on your home page. It might also be balanced by a page on "Success Stories" as there seem to be plenty of those on your web site as well.

 

These suggestions are made with the realization that you probably don't get paid much, if anything, for maintaining this web site so I just want to personally thank you and your team for providing such a great service!

 

Kristin

[[Co...]]

Colin,

 

You are not intentionally or knowingly a fearmongering website, yet the most alarming contents have a way of standing out such that that is the effect for so many people in vulnerable, uniquely malleable mental state. I stand by the position that all terrifying quotes and even user-generated content carry some unmistakable disclaimer, and furthermore that it be in a prominent place--such as News. That is, unless of course, BBo is populated by what I have (affectionately, believe it or not) deemed Bregginites and this is largely an anti-psychiatry website.

 

If such is the case, then just disregard eventhing I suggested.

 

Ten

 

Hi Ten,

 

We are not an anti-psychiatric drugs, nor an anti-psychiatrist, nor even an anti-benzodiazepine website! We are a website that helps those that wish to quit benzos.

 

I do think that psychiatric meds are way over prescribed (have you read of the recent report about the long-term study of Children taking Ritalin), and that psychiatry is something of a mess (note the rise of counselling and the way it has taken over much of the role that psychiatrists once carried out, albeit with some important differences). I am not anti the drugs, nor am I anti the psychiatrists, but the fact is that they generally just push pills these days, and it would appear, often after the minimal of consultations. We also have more-and-more ordinary GPs prescribing these very dangerous medications with little training and understanding of the potential hazards. I have come across people that say 'benzos should be banned' - they are clearly missing the point. It is the misprescribing by doctors (and the misselling of drugs to the medical profession from the drug industry) that is the problem. Benzos do have some uses, such as premeds, in the treatment of some rare neurological disorders (such as Stiff Baby Syndrome), Status Epilepticus seizures, and probably some other serious conditions too. Personally, I don't think they should ever be prescribed for insomnia or anxiety, but even if they continued to be prescribed to as many people as they are now, they would not be as big a problem if the doctors followed the guidelines and prescribed them for just a few weeks. You see, many doctors cannot even be trusted to follow simple guidelines!

 

So, I become annoyed with crass stupidity, but to say all doctors are stupid would be stupid statement in itself. Psychiatry is making itself an easy target for those that hold some unusual religious beliefs, and in turn, these anti-psychiatry groups make any comment that is critical of some psychiatric practices an easy target for psychiatrists - they can just dismiss the comment as coming from an anti-psychiatry crack-pot. Perhaps it is simple as a lack of money, but really, at its core, it is a lack of will by governments, the drug industry, doctors, and ultimately, voters.

[[Co...]]

Hi Colin:

 

I think it is critical to have factual information about benzo side effects and withdrawal on your web site and I thank you for doing so. If people are not getting the information from their physicians or mental health providers, then your web site does people a great service by providing factual, credible information.

 

Perhaps, though, to answer some of the concerns being voiced here, this more serious information might be placed on a separate page rather than on your home page. It might also be balanced by a page on "Success Stories" as there seem to be plenty of those on your web site as well.

 

These suggestions are made with the realization that you probably don't get paid much, if anything, for maintaining this web site so I just want to personally thank you and your team for providing such a great service!

 

Kristin

 

Hi Kristen,

 

Yes, you are probably correct. I am open to suggestions, and as soon as I'm feeling a little better (I've just withdrawan from an antiepileptic - my sleep is messed up, and just need a little time to feel myself again), I can reorganise the website, and add new content, but with help of everyone here.

 

Everyone's input is important. We have feedback board, but it is never used. Frankly, I have to do most of what goes on around here (in terms of website content), but would like to offload some or most of that responsibility (this is why the role document writer has been created). I am aware that this place could do with a bit of a shakeup, but the help of all the membership is needed for this to happen.

[[si...]]

well i am here because it is working and i want to be here - i have no other real support for what i am doing except here - so colin - i think you are great.

 

ok this is what else i think - it is important to be familiar with ashton if for no other reason - that she understands the complexity of withdrawal.

 

it is important to offer guidance using her method - it is important to recognize most people DO NOT have the support they need in the medical community - so offering support and encouragement for those of us who do not have support from their doctor is important - and i have received that help and support here and appreciate the hard work you do colin - and the other moderators as well as the members.

 

so if we can acknowledge some may need a direct taper - acknowledge and help them it is good - and i am receiving that help here - if i did not find the help and support i needed here i would not be here.

 

now that being said - perhaps in the welcome if people realized that help is here we could reach more people - but ya know you people aren't getting paid - so whatever - i just really appreciate this place - i would like to see so many more people reached.

 

ok now regarding doctors - i ain't gonna lie - they are very far behind times - i don't like them - i don't support them - i do not support drug use.  that does not mean i think everyone should throw their drugs out - until you are able to cope without drugs - you may very well need them.

 

and non of us knows everything - non of us are perfect - but many of us are especially the moderator and moderators are giving a lot - and it is free.

 

 

[[...]]

Physical and psychological addiction is nothing to be proud of.  If the truth seems negative, that's too bad.   

 

Ampersand I personally think your presence here adds to the site! I didn't set out to be rude to you but alas, you were part of the bigger point I was comprising.

 

On the other hand... lol, Addiction is nothing to be ashamed of my man! Especially of the doctor-induced variety! and if that is indeed your truth, I am sorry to hear so.

 

Don't ashamed.

 

However, since the 0.125mg wafer is equivalent to a quarter of a 0.5mg tablet (these tablets come with quarter-score marks), there maybe little advantage.

 

Colin hey buddy--jmo, but I can't see Jenn's her doctor being at all open yet another plan; another "complication" (in her doc's eyes). Nor is there any easily configurable straightline pharmacologic comparison between the two--especially kinetically (its potency in the brain).

 

I forget; is her doc a shrink? This may all be entirely too much (unfortunately) for her doc to have patience for.

 

Re., Comparisons to Valium: Contrary to what you may be thinking, these American docs do not just hand out Klonopin same as they would, say antiobiotics. It and all bzds are in fact, very often, regarded very strictly as controlled substances here in the states. It's spreading, believe it.

 

Hey! Quick change up! How's about a little levity to uhh, well, leaven things up! --->

 

Edit. Ooops 

 

« Last Edit: Today at 07:17:28 PM by Colin »

 

GOTCHA ...AHHH- hahahaha :yippee:

 

Wazza matter Colin 10 minutes ain't loooooong enough, uh grace period for you? You typin' slow today or something? still coming down from that fog of the carbamazepine (or whatever it was) stuff you were on....

 

You feeling ok?

You FEELING ok???

[[...]]

Oh, yeah. lol Not to leave everybody else out - the "editing" shenaniganry is an inside joke from PMs.

[[el...]]

I was wondering what the heck you were talking about 

[[ja...]]

Well, an interesting sidebar....a colleague and I conducted a survey which was generated for professional purposes.  We asked pharmacies throughout a 48 state area (2 per state) what the percentage of their prescriptions were benzodiazepines.  The shocker, you want to hear the shocker??    Approximately 75 % of those prescriptions are benzos.  It is an easy handout at least in some places and unfortunately, now the military coming home from Iraq are being given benzos for PTSD.  I personally know 4 right now who are addicted, suffering increased anxiety and their issues are not being dealt with adequately.  And I don't even get out that much.  This is a growing problem...not a diminishing problem.  The ignorance is appalling as well which leads to a definite insecurity during the wd process.  It would be nice to have a doctor say, "This is withdrawal" and then add an explanation.  But this doesn't happen.  Of course, listed in the list of benzos are the new Z drugs which have a similar mechanism to benzos.  Withdrawal can be the same.  Janus  

[[Co...]]

I was wondering what the heck you were talking about 

 

Heck, I know the full context, and I still wonder what Ten is writing about most of the time!

[[si...]]

i am in shock, awe and disgust that 75% of the drugs given out in this country is benzos.  i considered that abusive and irresponsible.

 

what do we have to look forward to for those in need of counseling - well a lot of continual withdrawal symptoms.

[[ja...]]

Well, you have to understand this was a smalll percentage of pharmacies, but we conducted this survey as an experiment.  Docs are looking for the short cut answer, and that is reflective of most of our society...we all want a fast answer to our problems.  We are afraid to suffer, to grieve, to face the dark night of the soul, our darker sides, and so we move into the new millenium of drugged existence.  Those coming off benzos are coming through a very long night and will know a lot more about life as a result, about real life and what it means, you can't feel the depth of light without seeing the dark of the night....It is possible to get off these drugs in a very manageable way.  But it requires what society lacks, what we all lack, and that is patience.  We're sure learning that aren't we?  Janus

[Guest [Kr...]]

I also believe these are extraordinarily stressful times for the human race which are resulting in an increased incidence of stress-related disorders and an increased use of stress-reducing medications, such as benzodiazepines. Following is an introductory quote from Edmund J. Bourne, Ph.D., who has been publishing "The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook" for fifteen years:

 

"Research conducted by the National Institute of Mental Health has shown that anxiety disorders are the number one mental health problem among American women and are second only to alcohol and drug abuse among men. Approximately 15 percent of the population of the United States, or nearly 40 million people, have suffered from panic attacks, phobias, or other anxiety disorders in the past year.

 

Nearly a quarter of the adult population will suffer from an anxiety disorder at some time during their life. Yet only a small proportion of these people receive treatment. During the 1990s, panic and anxiety reached epidemic proportions. Halfway through the first decade of a new century, this trend has continued and even worsened in the wake of new uncertainties about terrorism and economic instability.

 

Why are problems with panic, phobias, and anxiety so prevalent? It has been my impression that anxiety disorders are an outcome of cumulative stress acting over time. Certainly there are numerous factors that cause a person to develop panic attacks, phobias, or obsessions-but I believe that stress plays a key role. People living in Western society are currently experiencing more stress than they have at any previous time in history, and it is this stress that explains the increased incidence of anxiety disorders.

 

While it can be argued that human beings have always had to deal with stressful societal conditions (wars, famines, plagues, economic depression, and so forth), there are two reasons for suggesting that the overall stress level is higher now than before.

 

First, our environment and social order have changed more in the last 30 years than they have in the previous 300 years. The increased pace of modern society-and the increased rate of technological change-have deprived people of adequate time to adjust to these changes. To compound this situation, the lack of a consistent, externally sanctioned set of standards and values (traditionally prescribed by society and religion) leaves a vacuum in which people are left to fend for themselves.

 

Faced with a barrage of inconsistent worldviews and standards presented by the media, people are having to learn to cope with the responsibility of creating their own meaning and moral order. Beyond this, outside factors such as the threat of terrorism, economic unpredictability, and the increasing degradation of the global environment leave many people unsettled and uncertain about the future.

 

All of these factors make it difficult for many individuals in modern society to experience a sense of stability or consistency in their lives. Anxiety disorders are simply an outcome of a diminished ability to cope with the resulting stress, as are addictive disorders, depression, and the increased incidence of degenerative diseases."

[[da...]]

 

I think you underestimate the scale of the problem.

Colin,

I don't see how my post made you think I was underestimating the problem. The medical community makes it difficult to even estimate the magnitude of the problem. If a person who hits tolerance has interdose withdrawal symptoms usually the doctor wont acknowledge that but instead make a diagnosis excluding the cause. It happened to me very recently. I seen a doctor who gave me an axis I diagnosis of Panic Disorder with agoraphobia.  The cause is clearly from tolerance but the doctor ignored that obvious conclusion. So technically according to this doctor I am not a statistic of benzodiazepine problem.

 

My post was just making the point that there are less problems when you have a responsible doctor. If you have a responsible doctor benzo use can be therapeutic for very short-term use. That doctor knows and understands the medication including identifying addiction, tolerance and both actual and protracted withdrawal. This patient does not have the need to search out a self-help web site for a treatment plan.  When you have an irresponsible doctor you will eventually have problems that becomes even worse when they treat interdose withdrawal by increasing the dose or adding other medication such as antidepressants.

 

I started to hit tolerance after being on 3mg of Xanax for 5 years. They were a good 5 years free from panic attacks. I then started to have an occasional panic attack but with much more intensity then before I was on Xanax. When I seen my doctor he did not make the connection that maybe the Xanax was causing these symptoms. Instead he prescribed an SSRI. When I couldn’t tolerate that he prescribed me a beta-blocker which did nothing to help the symptoms of interdose withdrawal.

 

We then moved to a different state. My symptoms were increasing drastically until I became agoraphobic. I saw a new doctor who upped my dosage to 4mg. It helped for a very short while. After a year of this I made the decision to get off the Xanax. My doctor was not very cooperative so I went to a different doctor. This doctor wanted me to use a controversial possibly deadly MAOI when I refused he dropped me as a patient. I then went to a GP (DO) who finally agreed to a taper but at a non realistic rate. He also prescribed an anti depressant that is addictive and has tolerance and withdrawal similar to Benzos.

 

So in about a year and a half I saw 4 different doctors. Each one of these doctors had the opportunity to diagnose me properly and taper me off Xanax. Instead they treated me irresponsibly to the point where I had to come up with my own treatment plan to get off Xanax in hopes I will return to my former self. Considering what I pay a year for health insurance it is outrageous that I have to look at Internet sites to correct a doctor induced problem.

 

Sometimes posts are misunderstood or maybe I write in a way that's hard to understand.

Dave

 

 

 

[[si...]]

i think i have improved for the most part with my withdrawal - but yea there is stress - there is pressure and i am going to have to learn how to deal with.

 

i hope mental health learns how to deal with it to - all they do is issue diagnosis and drug - pretty lame and pretty dangerous - it just further alienates people.

 

hopefully there will be more and more forums to deal with these issues - because they are not going away over night.

 

so colin had become our leader and helper as is all of us on here to shed the chains and excess bagage of living up to the shrinks inability to deal with people places and things.  i don't think he bargined for all that responsibility  but somebody has to do it.

[[Co...]]

 

I think you underestimate the scale of the problem.

Colin,

I don't see how my post made you think I was underestimating the problem.

 

Neither do I! I totally misread the beginning of your post.

 

I think most people treated by a responsible doctor do not have problems with withdrawal. Some that do are kept in darkness from knowledge. Of the millions of people who are on benzos only a very small percentage will visit a site like this.

 

I read it as:

 

I think most people do not have problems with withdrawal. Some that do are kept in darkness from knowledge. Of the millions of people who are on benzos only a very small percentage will visit a site like this.

 

I find reading uncomfortable at the best of times (I have a neurological disorder that has quite subtle, but frustrating effects), and is aggravated by my abnormal sleep patterns that resulted from a very recent withdrawal of an anticonvlsant.

 

Sorry. That's twice I've been at crosspurposes with your posts. I'm not targeting you, I promise!

 

I'll read the rest of your post now.

 

Thanks.

[[Co...]]

Sometimes posts are misunderstood or maybe I write in a way that's hard to understand.

Dave

 

Nope, it was me.

 

I think my saving grace was that I was prescribed Clonazepam as an anticonvulsant by a neurologist. Because I didn't have a history of anxiety and/or depression, there was no automatic conclusion of a psychological disorder from the neurologist, or from myself, for that matter. Additionally, when I first withdrew from Clonazepam, I suffered some rather extreme neurological withdrawal effects that were totally unconnected with my neurological condition. I suppose, in this respects, I was luckier than most, because it was more obvious, even to a lay person, that my problems were connected to Clonazepam.

 

The neurologist I was seeing suggested that it might be worth seeing a psychologist. The neurology department was running a program of involving the psychology department to help patients deal with the symptoms of their condition. The neurologist explained that it didn't matter if some of my symptoms were the result of the use of Clonazepam or not, as they were likely employ CBT (Cognitive Behaviour Therapy) to help control the symptoms. He did 'warn' me though, they might just try to prescribe you new meds to deal with some of your symptoms instead. I went through a couple of meetings of assessment with a junior doctor (he was then rotated off), and I next saw the head honcho - sure enough, he started to talk about ADs - I didn't bother going back. This is my only contact with a psychiatrist - I wasn't at all impressed. I remember him saying something to the effect: 'do you think you could be wrong in your assessment of why you feel the way you do - 'of course that's possible', I replied. He followed up with some comment about 'how I was much further along than most people, that most of them would not understand this'. I didn't bother to ask him the question he asked me, and get into a discussion about the philosophy of knowledge, which was question I answered. He is the head of psychology of a teaching hospital - I thought he was an idiot.

[[si...]]

colin - i know he was an idiot.  i think i can benefit from a psychologist but only if he accepts i will not be drugged and labeled again - wish me luck.

 

the first time i met with him he said he might consider drugs - the last time i met with him and asked for a taper amount he said he could not write prescriptions.

 

i accept they may have coping, cognitive skills to teach - i question if they are capable of teaching them.  they might just use their credentials to push drugs and diagnosis.

 

i guess they get paid according to their ability to label and drug or maybe they just don't care.