The benefits of telling the truth

[[wh...]]

I have always seemed to be the square peg when it comes to life and this is true with medications also.  I can't help the fact a certain medication does not react the way it is "suppose to" when I take it.  I was only on .25mg ativan at night for 3 weeks and started having interdose withdrawals.  I can't help it if I'm dependent after 5 weeks.  It's not my fault.  Just because the doctors don't think it can happen doesn't make it any less real.  I'm 2 months post jump and still have a ways to go.  I just live this day and what it brings knowing I will heal and this is real.  I'm not responsible for what others think.  I'm sure if they had to live my life they may feel differently...maybe one day they might be in the same boat and understand.  But for now, this is may life and I'm dealing with it the best way I know how.  I am so thankful for this forum of others who are going through the same journey.  I would be going out of my mind not knowing what was actually happening to me and the simple fact we all heal with time.  As for the experience...I am stronger than I was and learning to put up boundaries as to what I can mentally afford.  Everyone has something they are dealing with.  This is my thing and I'm sure they have theirs..

[[Ph...]]

And honestly, why in the world would anyone take these pills if they didn't have pretty severe anxiety in the first place? They are strong and there is no point in taking them when a person isn't anxious. It's not just about quitting pills. It's really about treating the root cause of this, and unless that pain has been addressed, being benzo free doesn't mean all that much. It's so much more than about quitting pills.

 

Although anxiety and panic can also be triggered by non-psychological factors, what you're saying here is largely true.  There are other things that often need to be fixed in addition to getting off the pills.  So, back to the title of this thread.  The benefits of telling the truth.  We need to tell ourselves the truth.  Truth not just about ourselves but about others and about human nature in general.  This can open the door to peace.  There are very few shrinks who have the skills to help us do this.  We have to do it ourselves.

 

What exactly is this "truth" about ~human nature~?

 

When you understand the origins of human behavior, you realize that to a very large extent, people are not really in charge of they what they do, say and believe.  This includes you and me, right this very instant.  What's the benefit to us in realizing this?  We're less inclined to emotionally react to the offenses of other people, and we're less likely to beat ourselves up for our own behaviors and mistakes.  We understand what's going on.  It's not the big deal it used to be.  Life batters us less.  We suffer less.

 

So you think free will doesn't exist, and everything is cause and effect. What i don't understand is how that is "human nature".

 

Also, those are not the only consequences of free will not existing, the way you word it, make it seem like it's just a pretext to be submissive.

 

Correct.  I don't believe free will exists.  Human nature is the result of genetics, imprinting, variations in biochemistry and group (tribe) influences.  Tribal influences are so strong that they might as well be considered instructions.

 

But our own choices count as causation, i don't think people are that easy to define.

 

We seldom make our own choices.  In fact, the term "our own choices" has no meaning.  Please give me an example of a "choice" you made recently that was "your own." 

[[Ph...]]

Well what tribe do I belong to? 

 

Several.  But what they are, I have no idea.  You probably don't know either.  As for me, I do know what most of my tribes are, but for most of my life I was totally unaware that I belonged to tribes.  In fact, if someone asked me a question about social policy, for example, and if I answered in a certain way, I was convinced that I believed that way because it was simply correct.  That's all.  I had no idea I was thinking that way because of many, many other factors that I had no conscious awareness of nor control over.

 

[[Ph...]]

I believe some people are very limited in their free will.  I think the more damaged your body and brain is, the less free will you have.  Look at disabled people in a wheelchair or a quadriplegic.  How much free will do they have?  What about people with dementia lying in bed and can't focus or think?  Not much free will there.  When your body and brain are damaged, free will goes out the window, IMO.  A healthy mind can be flexible enough to make good decisions for themselves.

 

Perfectly healthy people are also very limited in their free will.  In fact it doesn't exist.  It really has nothing to do with a person's state of health.

 

 

[[Ph...]]

It's not so much that people don't have free will, as is that it often gets trumped by undue influence, and our social programming prevents us from seeing it when it needs to be seen.

 

That's certainly part of it.  But there's more.  For example, suppose you make a decision of some kind at 3 PM in the afternoon.  It's a delicate decision and you have to weigh several factors.  But here's the rub.  The decision you make will be influenced by whether or not you've eaten lunch or had a good nights sleep.  So, "you" (whoever that is) were not the sole factor in making the decision.  So where was the free will?  There wasn't any.  I could go on and on.  Don't even get me started on the effect of parental imprinting or epigenetics.  My parents are dead and gone but they are still telling me what to do.  What kind of free will is this?

 

[[Lo...]]

It's not so much that people don't have free will, as is that it often gets trumped by undue influence, and our social programming prevents us from seeing it when it needs to be seen.

 

That's certainly part of it.  But there's more.  For example, suppose you make a decision of some kind at 3 PM in the afternoon.  It's a delicate decision and you have to weigh several factors.  But here's the rub.  The decision you make will be influenced by whether or not you've eaten lunch or had a good nights sleep.  So, "you" (whoever that is) were not the sole factor in making the decision.  So where was the free will?  There wasn't any.  I could go on and on.  Don't even get me started on the effect of parental imprinting or epigenetics.  My parents are dead and gone but they are still telling me what to do.  What kind of free will is this?

 

Yes. I noticed the inner critic getting a lot louder. As long as I was able to work F/T, be productive, exercise, pay bills on time and keep the appearances, the inner critic was fairly muted. But, as things started to fall apart, it got very, very loud. And it was the same inner critic that tormented me in childhood and teenage years that I thought I'd overcome, but it came back with such ferocity that I was absolutely shocked by the strength of it.

 

[[Ph...]]

It's not so much that people don't have free will, as is that it often gets trumped by undue influence, and our social programming prevents us from seeing it when it needs to be seen.

 

That's certainly part of it.  But there's more.  For example, suppose you make a decision of some kind at 3 PM in the afternoon.  It's a delicate decision and you have to weigh several factors.  But here's the rub.  The decision you make will be influenced by whether or not you've eaten lunch or had a good nights sleep.  So, "you" (whoever that is) were not the sole factor in making the decision.  So where was the free will?  There wasn't any.  I could go on and on.  Don't even get me started on the effect of parental imprinting or epigenetics.  My parents are dead and gone but they are still telling me what to do.  What kind of free will is this?

 

Yes. I noticed the inner critic getting a lot louder. As long as I was able to work F/T, be productive, exercise, pay bills on time and keep the appearances, the inner critic was fairly muted. But, as things started to fall apart, it got very, very loud. And it was the same inner critic that tormented me in childhood and teenage years that I thought I'd overcome, but it came back with such ferocity that I was absolutely shocked by the strength of it.

 

The fact that you understand these things now shows that you're making progress.  Understanding what's going on is the first step.  The next step...and a much harder one...is to actually change the messages and instructions that are burned onto the hard drive in our heads.  The messages and instructions that drive us to mess up our lives and ruin our health.  That is soooo hard to do.  I wrestle with it every day.

 

 

[[Bl...]]

We seldom make our own choices.  In fact, the term "our own choices" has no meaning.  Please give me an example of a "choice" you made recently that was "your own."

 

Are you saying you believe that everything has been predetermined/predestined? For instance, if an individual decides to have eggs for breakfast instead of oatmeal….it was already predestined they would eat eggs? In other words the decision was already determined?

[[Lo...]]

We seldom make our own choices.  In fact, the term "our own choices" has no meaning.  Please give me an example of a "choice" you made recently that was "your own."

 

Are you saying you believe that everything has been predetermined/predestined? For instance, if an individual decides to have eggs for breakfast instead of oatmeal….it was already predestined they would eat eggs? In other words the decision was already determined?

 

I am highly interested in his take on this. Basically, I would interpret PhotoBugSF's thinking in a sense that the body was seeking the nutrients from eggs more than it needed the nutrients from the Oatmeal. It makes perfect sense. Also, a lot of potentially dangerous/spoiled/toxic foods will send off a toxic signal. But then again, this is very interesting. Lots of people have more affinity towards sweet, sugary foods than sour, bitter foods. Now, is that genetically predetermined, or is that something that has become more culturally predetermined? If you have a banana cream pie (600 calories) on a table along with the small salad (150 calories), which one would you eat? Is there a choice? Technically, the salad would be healthier, But, what if a person has to drive next 100 miles to the hotel for their business trip. Certainly, the banana cream pie will sustain that person and help them get to the location where they need to get to much more easily as they are not fighting hunger while driving. 

[[Bl...]]

We seldom make our own choices.  In fact, the term "our own choices" has no meaning.  Please give me an example of a "choice" you made recently that was "your own."

 

Are you saying you believe that everything has been predetermined/predestined? For instance, if an individual decides to have eggs for breakfast instead of oatmeal….it was already predestined they would eat eggs? In other words the decision was already determined?

 

I am highly interested in his take on this. Basically, I would interpret PhotoBugSF's thinking in a sense that the body was seeking the nutrients from eggs more than it needed the nutrients from the Oatmeal. It makes perfect sense. Also, a lot of potentially dangerous/spoiled/toxic foods will send off a toxic signal. But then again, this is very interesting. Lots of people have more affinity towards sweet, sugary foods than sour, bitter foods. Now, is that genetically predetermined, or is that something that has become more culturally predetermined? If you have a banana cream pie (600 calories) on a table along with the small salad (150 calories), which one would you eat? Is there a choice? Technically, the salad would be healthier, But, what if a person has to drive next 100 miles to the hotel for their business trip. Certainly, the banana cream pie will sustain that person and help them get to the location where they need to get to much more easily as they are not fighting hunger while driving.

 

Thinking this out is making me hungry....let's see...salad with the right dressing.....and it has to have crab and shrimp in it too. But the pie sounds great too...can I have both salad and pie and still keep living?? How does knowledge of what is and isn't healthy enter the picture? If I didn't already know that the pie is not a healthy choice, WOW....I would want the whole thing...or half of it depending.

[[Lo...]]

We seldom make our own choices.  In fact, the term "our own choices" has no meaning.  Please give me an example of a "choice" you made recently that was "your own."

 

Are you saying you believe that everything has been predetermined/predestined? For instance, if an individual decides to have eggs for breakfast instead of oatmeal….it was already predestined they would eat eggs? In other words the decision was already determined?

 

I am highly interested in his take on this. Basically, I would interpret PhotoBugSF's thinking in a sense that the body was seeking the nutrients from eggs more than it needed the nutrients from the Oatmeal. It makes perfect sense. Also, a lot of potentially dangerous/spoiled/toxic foods will send off a toxic signal. But then again, this is very interesting. Lots of people have more affinity towards sweet, sugary foods than sour, bitter foods. Now, is that genetically predetermined, or is that something that has become more culturally predetermined? If you have a banana cream pie (600 calories) on a table along with the small salad (150 calories), which one would you eat? Is there a choice? Technically, the salad would be healthier, But, what if a person has to drive next 100 miles to the hotel for their business trip. Certainly, the banana cream pie will sustain that person and help them get to the location where they need to get to much more easily as they are not fighting hunger while driving.

 

Thinking this out is making me hungry....let's see...salad with the right dressing.....and it has to have crab and shrimp in it too. But the pie sounds great too...can I have both salad and pie and still keep living?? How does knowledge of what is and isn't healthy enter the picture? If I didn't already know that the pie is not a healthy choice, WOW....I would want the whole thing...or half of it depending.

 

That is good. And then, who is imposing the choice whether to eat a pie or a salad without giving us a chance to eat both? Maybe it was some dude who wrote an article in Psychology today, warning us about high fat desserts. Who cares about that schmuck? Right....

 

On the other hand, these "no free will" arguments kind of imply that we have taken these psych meds (benzo, z-drugs) because that was predetermined for us due to the circumstances. Were we stressed beyong the breaking point at the time, that it was not a choice anymore? Why take an odorless, tasteless pill to relax, if I could have had a delicious drink with chamomile tea, soy latte, cinnamon, honey and whipped cream? That would have relaxed me just the same as ativan. Maybe even more. But it takes time to create that sort of drink, and it might cost $4 in a coffee shop, where a prescription bottle of 60 ativans may be only a $5 insurance copay. Apparently, it was easier taking one of those 0.5mg pills after being frazzled by a screaming supervisor on her off day. Getting up and going to the lunch room and warming up a mug with water and putting a chamomile bag in it and running back to the desk may trigger another shouting tantrum from that same supervisor, so better to covertly take an Ativan, put the headphones on, keep working on a project and pretend to be invisible.

 

 

[[li...]]

Free will, philosophy.

 

Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it predestination ? Partly physics, partly philosophy.

[Guest [sa...]]

Free will, philosophy.

 

Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it predestination ? Partly physics, partly philosophy.

 

I'd say there is no free will in the sense that all our actions are reliant on causality, but a lot of people say this to blame their misbehavior which they DID have control over.

[[Lo...]]

Free will, philosophy.

 

Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it predestination ? Partly physics, partly philosophy.

 

I'd say there is no free will in the sense that all our actions are reliant on causality, but a lot of people say this to blame their misbehavior which they DID have control over.

 

There is free will. There is no free will. What if both were true? (Quantuum mechanics, anyone?)

[[Bl...]]

Free will, philosophy.

 

Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it predestination ? Partly physics, partly philosophy.

 

I'd say there is no free will in the sense that all our actions are reliant on causality, but a lot of people say this to blame their misbehavior which they DID have control over.

 

There is free will. There is no free will. What if both were true? (Quantuum mechanics, anyone?)

 

What do you mean by "Quantum Mechanics"? That it has already happened?

[[Lo...]]

I meant that both statements may not be mutually exclusive. The notion that one has free will doesn't exclude the notion that one doesn't have free will. That we don't live in EITHER/OR universe, where it can be just 100% determined that humans don't have free will or that humans do have free will. Perhaps, there is a 20% level of free will and the 80% level no free will/causality in a situation. And then  90% free will in another situation, or 75%. You get the idea.

[[Bl...]]

I meant that both statements may not be mutually exclusive. The notion that one has free will doesn't exclude the notion that one doesn't have free will. That we don't live in EITHER/OR universe, where it can be just 100% determined that humans don't have free will or that humans do have free will. Perhaps, there is a 20% level of free will and the 80% level no free will/causality in a situation. And then  90% free will in another situation, or 75%. You get the idea.

 

I think what you are saying…correct me if I’m wrong, is that there is law of conscience ( many just laws of today are based on our innate conscience). Thus, as creatures who can exercise free will, we can either choose to wisely use this built in conscience or foolishly abuse it to our eventual ruin.

 

Then there are physical laws that make scientific research even possible.

 

And often times we cannot prevent "walking" into harm's way.....resulting from a physical law.

 

Both these laws....law of conscience and physical laws factor in to our everyday lives.

 

Does this make sense....or are you coming from a different point of thought?

 

I’m not sure what you mean by "we don't live in either/or universe". Is this hyperbole?

[[Lo...]]

I meant that both statements may not be mutually exclusive. The notion that one has free will doesn't exclude the notion that one doesn't have free will. That we don't live in EITHER/OR universe, where it can be just 100% determined that humans don't have free will or that humans do have free will. Perhaps, there is a 20% level of free will and the 80% level no free will/causality in a situation. And then  90% free will in another situation, or 75%. You get the idea.

 

I think what you are saying…correct me if I’m wrong, is that there is law of conscience ( many just laws of today are based on our innate conscience). Thus, as creatures who can exercise free will, we can either choose to wisely use this built in conscience or foolishly abuse it to our eventual ruin.

 

Then there are physical laws that make scientific research even possible.

 

And often times we cannot prevent "walking" into harm's way.....resulting from a physical law.

 

Both these laws....law of conscience and physical laws factor in to our everyday lives.

 

Does this make sense....or are you coming from a different point of thought?

 

I’m not sure what you mean by "we don't live in either/or universe". Is this hyperbole?

 

What I meant by  "we don't live in either/or universe" is simply that things are just not so cut and dried and that the whole choice/free will and the lack of it is not so simple. I think there's both choice and causality and it's sometimes hard to say if we're doing something out of choice, if there is some causality making our choice a dilemma, or if the situation is a mere causality, and there's a dilemma where we have to find the lesser evil. Sometimes people have 2 choices to pick from, while sometimes, they have a dilemma on their hands because neither "choice" looks like a choice.

[[Bl...]]

What I meant by  "we don't live in either/or universe" is simply that things are just not so cut and dried and that the whole choice/free will and the lack of it is not so simple. I think there's both choice and causality and it's sometimes hard to say if we're doing something out of choice, if there is some causality making our choice a dilemma, or if the situation is a mere causality, and there's a dilemma where we have to find the lesser evil. Sometimes people have 2 choices to pick from, while sometimes, they have a dilemma on their hands because neither "choice" looks like a choice.

 

I understand your point.

 

But if someone tries to force me to do something against my will, then I will object even if I have to suffer some horrendous consequence including death. I value my conscience and view it as a gift to be treasured/respected/and diligently used to the best of my current abilities/circumstances.

 

I will never use it to force another person to do something I consider right....as an example, on political issues I am absolutely neutral. Subjection to whatever political entity I'm a citizen to would be honored in a relative sense only....thus, there are boundaries to be respected as to my conscience.

 

At the end of the day, if we all worked toward strengthening our consciences....this world would be a lot more safe than it currently is.

[[Bl...]]

What I meant by  "we don't live in either/or universe" is simply that things are just not so cut and dried and that the whole choice/free will and the lack of it is not so simple. I think there's both choice and causality and it's sometimes hard to say if we're doing something out of choice, if there is some causality making our choice a dilemma, or if the situation is a mere causality, and there's a dilemma where we have to find the lesser evil. Sometimes people have 2 choices to pick from, while sometimes, they have a dilemma on their hands because neither "choice" looks like a choice.

 

WHOOPS....thought the above post didn't get posted so I wrote this post too....feel free to comment or not comment to either post!!!! Strange how I lost the above post, or so I thought...oh well....hope I'm not overloading the subject at hand.

 

I understand what you're saying. This is why it's important to strengthen ones conscience in all areas. For instance in the area of lying...some might think a little lie will not hurt. But that thinking weakens our consciences. I do not profess to be perfect in this area...and like many areas of my life....I'm a work in progress!!!

 

I need to stress that I'm not obligated to divulge information I might have, if others could be harmed by my doing so. There are things others simply have no right knowing, when considering what they plan on using that information for.

 

So if I find myself suddenly in a dilemma as to what choice to make....I would hope that I would make the right choice. And that choice would be based on my trained conscience....that I'm always working on to improve.

[[Ph...]]

We seldom make our own choices.  In fact, the term "our own choices" has no meaning.  Please give me an example of a "choice" you made recently that was "your own."

 

Are you saying you believe that everything has been predetermined/predestined? For instance, if an individual decides to have eggs for breakfast instead of oatmeal….it was already predestined they would eat eggs? In other words the decision was already determined?

 

"Pre-destined" is not quite the right word.  In the case of "deciding" to eat eggs, I'm saying that the "decision" was not just a case of "you" making a reasoned, rational decision to eat eggs.  It's more a matter of your body, sensing that some protein is needed in order to keep things running right, is compelling you to eat eggs for breakfast this morning rather than oatmeal, for example.  Or, perhaps it's that quiet instruction in your subconscious...implanted long ago by mom and dad...that eggs are good for you.  It may well have been something you saw on television that you are not consciously aware of.  Maybe one of those yummy Facebook images you see all the time in your news feed.  How do you think advertising works?  Whatever.  My main point is that you are not making some sort of autonomous, reasoned, independent decision.  Something is pulling your levers.  There is ALWAYS something pulling our levers.  This is hard for many people to handle.  They are proud of their decisions, their beliefs and motivations, their intelligence.  They won't let these things go.  Of course this is understandable.  At first, it's shocking to realize this, that there's really no "you" there.  But after awhile, it settles in.  You can then observe your impulses and choices from another perspective, and you can see what's going on.  Try it.  But of course it won't be your decision to try it.  But that's okay.  Have fun with it.

[[Bl...]]

We seldom make our own choices.  In fact, the term "our own choices" has no meaning.  Please give me an example of a "choice" you made recently that was "your own."

 

Are you saying you believe that everything has been predetermined/predestined? For instance, if an individual decides to have eggs for breakfast instead of oatmeal….it was already predestined they would eat eggs? In other words the decision was already determined?

 

"Pre-destined" is not quite the right word.  In the case of "deciding" to eat eggs, I'm saying that the "decision" was not just a case of "you" making a reasoned, rational decision to eat eggs.  It's more a matter of your body, sensing that some protein is needed in order to keep things running right, is compelling you to eat eggs for breakfast this morning rather than oatmeal, for example.  Or, perhaps it's that quiet instruction in your subconscious...implanted long ago by mom and dad...that eggs are good for you.  It may well have been something you saw on television that you are not consciously aware of.  Maybe one of those yummy Facebook images you see all the time in your news feed.  How do you think advertising works?  Whatever.  My main point is that you are not making some sort of autonomous, reasoned, independent decision.  Something is pulling your levers.  There is ALWAYS something pulling our levers.  This is hard for many people to handle.  They are proud of their decisions, their beliefs and motivations, their intelligence.  They won't let these things go.  Of course this is understandable.  At first, it's shocking to realize this, that there's really no "you" there.  But after awhile, it settles in.  You can then observe your impulses and choices from another perspective, and you can see what's going on.  Try it.  But of course it won't be your decision to try it.  But that's okay.  Have fun with it.

 

I agree that children need guidance. But eventually as an infant grows into a toddler and a toddler grows into a young child…..and so on….that with each stage of development a measure of accountability enters into the picture.

 

As an example.....A child may not initially understand the full scope of why they should learn to say thank you. But with time they will grasp why. Hopefully it is grasped not just on an intellectual level, but they also come to recognize that expressing gratitude makes them feel good about themselves/their fellowman/the entire scope of life.

 

This principle is true with adults as well. Some adults never learn that saying, “thank you” is the loving/right thing to do. I’m still working on it myself…far from perfection.

 

The daily news papers are full of accounts of people(young and old) who never learned or who chose not to learn how to be polite to there fellowman. No need to give an example…but I will anyway as there are so many too many to count.... sadly, one that comes to my mind is the nine year old who wanted something(a remote control?) that his sister had and as a result his sister is no longer here. Her brother got his way in the end.

 

I remember being nine years old….and I remember what it meant to be accountable for my actions at that young age!