[li...] Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 No doctor here knows about that drug, so it would be DIY. Pheno dependence isn't harmless ... I know of one member who has been tapered off with pheno, but she isn't around any longer. Good for her. This country is in the stone ages re: benzos, I don't see how diazepam and librium would cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Na...] Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 When you say “pheno” do you mean phenobarbital? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[li...] Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Yes, phenobarbital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[...] Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Pheno is only appropriate in a CT and under medical supervision, to prevent seizure in extreme cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Na...] Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I don’t see what you gain by switching to phenobarbital. It does the same things to the same receptors that benzos do, except it has a smaller therapeutic window, i.e. the delta between a therapeutic dose and a dangerous dose is much smaller. That’s why the world switched from phenobarbital to benzos for most applicantions when they became available. Back in the 1950s it wasn’t unusual for people to accidentally OD on phenobarbital, including more than a few famous Hollywood stars. I see nothing to recommend their use in this application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[li...] Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 For various reasons I can´t do a regular clonazepam taper, and Tranxene, diazepam and Librium do not appear to be an option,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Na...] Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 For various reasons I can´t do a regular clonazepam taper, and Tranxene, diazepam and Librium do not appear to be an option,. Why isn't diazepam an option? I can't imagine a doctor that would rather prescribe phenobarbital than the oldest front line benzo for a taper. I've heard of a very few people tapering on phenobarbital. Personally, I just don't get it. All the downsides of any benzo, plus if you're not careful you might actually OD on the stuff. The only application I hear phenobarbital being prescribed for much anymore is certain hard to manage seizure disorders. And even then, those patients have to be monitored very closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[be...] Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I was given two doses of pheno at a detox center. I was bouncing off the wall. I refused any more doses as I felt a C/T would be better than that. To me it's a very dangerous drug. I know people on death row get it when it's their time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Na...] Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I just noticed that you're thinking of doing a phenobarbital taper ..... DIY. I would really advise against that. Phenobarbital is not a drug to be trifled with. As I said, it was dumped for anxiety control as soon as benzos arrived on the scene specifically because the therapeutic window was so narrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[be...] Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I just noticed that you're thinking of doing a phenobarbital taper ..... DIY. I would really advise against that. Phenobarbital is not a drug to be trifled with. As I said, it was dumped for anxiety control as soon as benzos arrived on the scene specifically because the therapeutic window was so narrow. One deadly drug. I think it should be banned IMO...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Lo...] Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 The big problem with phenobarbital is that it will keep those chloride ion channels open much longer than a regular benzodiazepine will to, and considering that phenobarbital and bzd's are cross tolerant, we are talking about a massively increased chances of an overdose. Dangerous stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[li...] Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 'Why isn't diazepam an option?' My experience. And I got the theoretical background... Benzogirl, ' I was bouncing off the wall. ' Akathisia, restlessness ? I recall someone else stating she felt or looked 'wasted'. Death row ... they use a different barb for that. Pentobarbital ? 'The big problem with phenobarbital is that it will keep those chloride ion channels open much longer than a regular benzodiazepine will to, and considering that phenobarbital and bzd's are cross tolerant, we are talking about a massively increased chances of an overdose. Dangerous stuff.' Actually, that's why a certain neurologist wanted to do this for a certain emmeber who I will not mention here. Maybe it will help. I don't know much about the way the drug acts on the brain. There are no professionals here ... I'm not sure what physical dependence would do ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Lo...] Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 http://benzosupport.org/anthea.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Lo...] Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Pheno dependence isn't harmless ... I know of one member who has been tapered off with pheno, but she isn't around any longer. Good for her. This doesn't sound particularly encouraging Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[li...] Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 I'm just dealing with a soup of relevant health problems, the clonazepam, lorazepam withdrawal/kindling. Multiple forms of iatrogenic damage. Clonazepam does a lot of unique things (related to its antimyoclonic and absence properties) and it makes a unique tapering experience. Can't split it etc. You know docs don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[li...] Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 Pheno dependence isn't harmless ... I know of one member who has been tapered off with pheno, but she isn't around any longer. Good for her. This doesn't sound particularly encouraging I think she's fine off and mostly recovered. Got a good laugh though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Na...] Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Everyone has to make their choices and follow their own course, but I really feel you're going to end up digging yourself a deeper hole. If you're going to use an illicitly obtained drug to do a taper, I can't see why you wouldn't just obtain diazepam and use that. That's a known path and the chances of screwing that up are low. Phenobarbital on the other hand has some real risks. Good luck with whatever you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[be...] Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 When I said I was bouncing off the wall, I was wasted. My balance was off like I was very drunk. I recall being sent to a group counseling session and I sat down then got up and announced my name is Betsy and I'm an alcoholic. Everyone burst out laughing. Pheno has been used with a combination of other drugs on death row, but not sure if they still use it I preferred my C/T symptom to that drug which says a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[cs...] Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 http://benzosupport.org/anthea.htm Wow. What a journey. 120 mgs of phenobarbital is a high dose...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[be...] Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 http://benzosupport.org/anthea.htm Wow. What a journey. 120 mgs of phenobarbital is a high dose...... I would be dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[li...] Posted February 4, 2018 Author Share Posted February 4, 2018 When I said I was bouncing off the wall, I was wasted. My balance was off like I was very drunk. I recall being sent to a group counseling session and I sat down then got up and announced my name is Betsy and I'm an alcoholic. Everyone burst out laughing. Pheno has been used with a combination of other drugs on death row, but not sure if they still use it I preferred my C/T symptom to that drug which says a lot. I've read a bit about pheno. High potency benzodiazepines like clonazepam have a relatively high affinity for the receptors in the brainstem (should I mention intrinsic efficacy?). Pheno also seems to have a significant effect in that area. https://books.google.nl/books?id=YXqX04Te9ioC&pg=PA1284&lpg=PA1284&dq=phenobarbital+brain+stem&source=bl&ots=ys0OBJozqH&sig=Dvvl5cdtxQXy3jfMwtshQ5LesuQ&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjb0pH_kY3ZAhXFJFAKHdAqAnkQ6AEISDAC#v=onepage&q=phenobarbital%20brain%20stem&f=false Obviously, far from perfect. If I had a neutral drug like lorazepam that would not be so very destructive (nuking alpha1 subunits, interdose withdrawal, gruesome dependency syndrome etc) then maybe I could use that. I certainly can't use the 'benzo bath' drug diazepam. Pharmacokinetics, pharmacodynamics, downregulation of alpa 1 and 5, short acting, different binding etc. 'You're fine , it's just the benzo'. No. I need a panacea .... the median and low potency benzos do not bind to certain areas for the most part. Health damage, properties of clonazepam, clipped alpha 1 subunits by lorazepam, all in interaction are breaking my body down ... Primitive healthcare is standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[be...] Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 liberty: That link you provided is in another language, probably Dutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[li...] Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 Seriously ? I'm reading it in English ! 'thus, GABAergic drugs such as phenobarbital will inhibit brain stem activity, including the motor manifestations of seizures, while the cortex still generates electrical seizures.' (see other thread, Netherlands) It seems that the local de facto position is: get of the poison first, then we´ll see about any healthcare ... Even more cruel than the typical US counterpart where they just cut people off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[be...] Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 I'll go to the other thread as I clearly saw mine in a different language. Or maybe it's just me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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