My Liquid Daily Micro Taper (updated)

[[bu...]]

But Pete, you didn't say your UK liquid lorazepam needs to be refrigerated, you said propylene glycol needs to be refrigerated.

 

...PG will need to refrigerated if using for 20 days.

 

Whatever instruction the mfgr and/or the pharmacy provides for your product, I suggest you follow.

 

 

 

 

[[pe...]]

sorry i was referring to the fact that it is pg in the product and thats what they say i dont use it.. i want to use PG for my tablets...

[[bu...]]

sorry i was referring to the fact that it is pg in the product and thats what they say i dont use it.. i want to use PG for my tablets...

  It does not need to  be refrigerated, but do whatever you feel comfortable with.

 

Reducing temp does reduce solubility, but it probably won't actually cause any problem.

[[Ki...]]

Im bookmarking this for when I get below 5 mg V. My doc left, and she wrote me a script that will hopefully get me through the rest of my taper- at least another year. But its all 5 mg tablets! Dry cut MT when making tiny reductions is doable for me, but I know these 5 mg pills are not consistent. Once I get back from the vacation I hope to take I will know where to come for instructions. Is there a liquid support group?

SG got me through my cross and started me on this taper and I know he is having a lot of problems. Hoping for the best for him.

Thanks Crash!

Kitty

[[sl...]]

Just to say thanks to Crash and Builder.

This plan sounds perfect for me.

Wish me luck.

Just about to taper from 5mgs Valium, one dose per day.

 

Tapered from 15mgs by cutting in 10 months  but gets difficult to dry cut small doses.

 

I think 10 months is a long time just to cut by 10mgs but 5mgs of my Valium was  initially 5mgs Nitrazepam so had to c/o

I found that c/o hellish so held for around 6 months.

After I adjusted to that it has gone , so far, fairly smoothly.

So glad I found this forum.

Wish me luck I'm scared.

[[be...]]

this is great since I am just starting and was really questioning the switch my dr. made to valium.....and YES...UGGH. that was 51 days ago. 

 

I am going back to xanax but I'm afraid dr. will not approve it.  do you think using etzi is pretty much the same since it is short acting.  original xanax dr. retired so its been quite a journey.

[[To...]]

Note: This is an updated version. I've learned a lot since stepping off!

 

>>

I get a lot of PMs asking about my daily taper, so i figured i would post it here so that i can easily link to it and keep the conversation on the boards. Also, i'd love feedback from the more experienced BBs on where i can improve.

 

 

Materials:

1) 1 bottle (I used a 60 ml bottle for dosage and TSA reasons, but you can use whatever you want)

 

http://www.amazon.com/Pack--Essential-Fragrances-Chemicals-Re-Usable/dp/B01C7VKFUO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1459904942&sr=8-2&keywords=brown+60+ml+bottle

 

2) 100 1 ml syringes (easier to use a new one than wash them). I like these because they have a slip-tip for more accurate measuring.

 

http://www.amazon.com/slip-tip-disposable-syringe-without-needle/dp/B007ZDHYTK?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

   

3) bottle of glycerin - this is only for taste. It is not required.

 

4) Vodka or propylene glycol - note that you will only be taking a TINY amount of alcohol per day (less than in fruit juice). But if that bothers you, then use propylene glycol

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005PZBRUC/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_a_it?qid=1459968276&sr=8-1&keywords=propylene+glycol&pi=SY200_QL40

 

5) water

 

6) meds

 

 

Preparation:

This is based on my 60 ml bottle. You can adjust as needed.

 

Pour enough vodka (or PG) into the brown bottle to dissolve your meds. A commonly cited amount is 1 ml per 1 mg of meds.

Calculate how much clonazepam (or whatever you're taking) will last 20 days

Pour it into the brown bottle to mix with the vodka. You now have a dissolved solution.

Pour in some glycerin if you want it to taste better. Not required.

Pour in enough water to fill the bottle to 60 ml.

Shake it all up

You now have a 60 ml solution that will last 20 days

 

NOTE: If you're taking a LOT of pills, you'll want to use a bigger bottle. Or split your doses between dry pills and liquid. For example, if your daily dose is 4 mg, then take 3.5 mg by pill and .5 mg by liquid. Just do the microtaper on the liquid. When you get down to 0 liquid, then go to 3 dry pill and .5 liquid. Etc.

 

 

Dosing:

I can only tell you what i did. You'll have to adjust for your own dosage and meds.

 

I dosed 3 times per day at 9:00 AM, 5:00 PM, and 1:00 AM.

At the start of my taper, i took 1 ml each time for 3 times per day. This comes out to 60 ml over 20 days time.

I shook the bottle for about 30 seconds before each dose just to make sure it was evenly distributed. Not really necessary if you have dissolved it in vodka or PG. But i'm OCD.

I used 1 ml syringe to dose. I just squirted the liquid into my mouth.

I was on a 100-day plan to finish off my last taper of .125 mg, so the first day, i dosed with 1 ml t.i.d. The second day, it was .99 ml. Third day, .98 ml. And so on.

 

If you're on a higher dose, then make a 200-day plan. Or 300-day. Whatever you need. Just adjust the syringe amounts accordingly. Or you could go down 1% every other day for a 200-day plan. Or down 1% every third day for a 300-day plan. The beauty of it is that you go down at your own rate, and strictly control how much you reduce without having to calculate it every day, etc.

 

Note here that the only "calculation" you have to make each day is to reduce the syringe by one little hash mark. It's really easy.

 

 

This method is portable. It does not require refrigeration. It only requires that you calculate your meds once (each new batch uses the same initial amount of meds).

 

I carried it in a brown plastic case, along with a real prescription compound in case i got pulled over or went through TSA.

 

 

 

I really appreciate all the help i've gotten on this board, so if this helps anyone else, then that would be great. 

 

Sorry if this has been asked in a previous page or thread.

 

Will 1ml of vodka dissolve a 2mg, 5mg, or 10mg tablet of Diazepam with equal efficacy? These tablets are all the same size, the majority which are fillers and inert ingredients. I just want to know if the "1 ml per 1 mg of meds" can be extended to 1ml per tablet when creating a solution. That is, will all of the active ingredient (Diazepam) dissolve into the ethanol even if I'm using 10mg or 5mg tablets?

 

Example, say I dissolve 2 10mg tablets of Diazepam with 2ml of vodka. Will I be OK?

 

If not, the "1 ml per 1 mg of meds" rule would mean 20ml of my 100ml solution will be pure vodka, which seems excessive.

[[To...]]

Oh, and what is the solubility of glycerin into water at room temperature?

 

Could I dissolve 40ml into 100ml for instance?

 

What's the ideal amount to counter the bitter taste of the vodka?

[[bu...]]

[

 

Sorry if this has been asked in a previous page or thread.

 

Will 1ml of vodka dissolve a 2mg, 5mg, or 10mg tablet of Diazepam with equal efficacy? These tablets are all the same size, the majority which are fillers and inert ingredients. I just want to know if the "1 ml per 1 mg of meds" can be extended to 1ml per tablet when creating a solution. That is, will all of the active ingredient (Diazepam) dissolve into the ethanol even if I'm using 10mg or 5mg tablets?

 

Example, say I dissolve 2 10mg tablets of Diazepam with 2ml of vodka. Will I be OK?

 

If not, the "1 ml per 1 mg of meds" rule would mean 20ml of my 100ml solution will be pure vodka, which seems excessive.

 

For each mg of benzo, you need 2ml of vodka pr PG.

 

The size or dosage of the tablet makes no difference.  What your trying to do is dissolve the benzo.  Note that some or even much of the tablet will be insoluble, but that doesn't matter.  The benzo will dissolve.

[[To...]]

For each mg of benzo, you need 2ml of vodka or PG.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=110496.msg1429429#msg1429429

 

A few things to note, which have been discussed previously on BB

 

...

 

(d) It's been confirmed on the valium support thread that 1ml of 80 proof (40%) vodka is enough to dissolve approx 16mg of valium.

 

One person says 1ml can dissolve 16mg, another says 1ml can only dissolve 0.5mg. These are extremely discrepant amounts. I'm trying to make a 1mg=1ml solution which would be trivial if Diaz-pam's info is correct, but impossible (with vodka) if builder's is correct. Can anyone explain the discrepancy between these two numbers?

 

---

 

Edit: did some digging of my own.

 

Detailed laboratory analysis of Diazepam from The National Institute of Health:

 

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/diazepam#section=Solubility

 

Sparingly soluble in propylene glycol; approx 62.5 mg/mL alcohol at 25 deg C

McEvoy, G.K. (ed.). American Hospital Formulary Service-Drug Information 19 98. Bethesda, MD: American Society of Health-System Pharmacists, Inc. 1998 (Plus Supplements)., p. 1944

from HSDB

 

...

 

One gram of diazepam dissolves in about 350 mL of water, in approximately 15 mL of 95% ethanol, or in approximately 2 mL of chloroform.

Lewis, R.J. Sr.; Hawley's Condensed Chemical Dictionary 15th Edition. John Wiley & Sons, Inc. New York, NY 2007., p. 389

 

Based on these laboratory tests it seems ~62.5-66.6mg/ml of Diazepam will dissolve into ethanol at room temperature.

 

Vodka is 40% ABV (Alcohol By Volume), therefore:

 

Solubility of Diazepam in Vodka should be 0.40 X ~64mg/ml ~= 25mg/ml

[[bu...]]

 

It's been confirmed on the valium support thread that 1ml of 80 proof (40%) vodka is enough to dissolve approx 16mg of valium.

 

That's from an original post that I made.  This was early in the days of liquid tapering, and was based on some info I had found.

 

But some time later BB SG57 found much more detailed,  lab-researched data on solubility (He and I argued about for several months  )

 

For most benzos, 1ml of 80 proof is just barely sufficient to dissolve 1mg of benzo.  The safest ratio is 1mg per 2ml 80 proof vodka.

 

 

[[bu...]]

 

 

Based on these laboratory tests it seems ~62.5-66.6mg/ml of Diazepam will dissolve into ethanol at room temperature.

 

Vodka is 40% ABV (Alcohol By Volume), therefore:

 

Solubility of Diazepam in Vodka should be 0.40 X ~64mg/ml ~= 25mg/ml

 

Just a caution.  Your making the same error I did when I posted the 16mg per ml statement.  The data I had, and the data you are referencing, assumes pure, undiluted ETOH.  But those numbers are no longer true when the alcohol is diluted, as it is in beverage alcohol.  And then when you further dilute your mixture, as everyone does, the solubility is changes further.  Unfortunately you cannot use the solubility of pure ETOH to predict the solubility in a dilute mixture.

 

BB SG57 posted many pages solubiluty curves at varying levels of dilution, based on extensive lab research by Jouyban.  If you search BB for posts by SG57, you will actually find a table he created showing the specific solubility for several different benzo.

 

There are hundreds of pages of research by Jouyban on the web, but here is one to get you started:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18380397

 

 

BTW, if I were planning to start a liquid taper, I would choose the safest plan I could find.  More solvent won't be a problem but less might be.  We know from first hand observations that 1mg per 2ml vodka or PG works.

 

[[bu...]]

If your interested, here is some of the historical interchanges regarding solubility ratios:

 

See post 37 on this thread:  (there's a graph there)

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.msg1540866#msg1540866

 

Here is a key takeaway from the Jouyban data:

 

"...no matter the benzo, the (solubility) peaks all occur near ~85-90% alcohol, not 100%"

 

See post 17 on this thread for some of the interplay between SG and myself regarding solubility.  I eventually came to understand that the solubility factor is not a constant, but a curvilinear relationship.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=126284.msg1678733#msg1678733

 

 

[[To...]]

Just a caution.  Your making the same error I did when I posted the 16mg per ml statement.  The data I had, and the data you are referencing, assumes pure, undiluted ETOH.  But those numbers are no longer true when the alcohol is diluted, as it is in beverage alcohol.  And then when you further dilute your mixture, as everyone does, the solubility is changes further.  Unfortunately you cannot use the solubility of pure ETOH to predict the solubility in a dilute mixture.

 

...

 

If your interested, here is some of the historical interchanges regarding solubility ratios:

 

See post 37 on this thread:  (there's a graph there)

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.msg1540866#msg1540866

 

Here is a key takeaway from the Jouyban data:

 

"...no matter the benzo, the (solubility) peaks all occur near ~85-90% alcohol, not 100%"

 

See post 17 on this thread for some of the interplay between SG and myself regarding solubility.  I eventually came to understand that the solubility factor is not a constant, but a curvilinear relationship.

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=126284.msg1678733#msg1678733

 

Hmm, thanks for alerting me to the variable solubility problem. Did you guys ever manage to dispute this graphic?

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.msg1540640#msg1540640

 

If that distribution is correct, Everclear 190 (95% ABV) would seem to be the best choice, giving lots more headroom for dilution than Vodka. Assuming SG57's data is sound, wouldn't it be safe to dilute <= 30mg/ml of Diazepam into Everclear 190?

 

If that method is safe my thinking was:

 

1) Place 10X10mg tablets Valium into a 100ml graduated cylinder

2) Pour approximately 5ml of Everclear 190 onto those tablets

3) Wait an hour or so (is alcohol evaporating a problem here?)

4) Add 75ml of lukewarm filtered tap water and 20ml of glycerine (flavoring)

5) Pour the mixture into amber glass container and shake resulting in 100ml of 1mg/1ml Diazepam solution.

[[bu...]]

 

 

 

 

Hmm, thanks for alerting me to the variable solubility problem. Did you guys ever manage to dispute this graphic?

 

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97737.msg1540640#msg1540640

 

If that distribution is correct, Everclear 190 (95% ABV) would seem to be the best choice, giving lots more headroom for dilution than Vodka. Assuming SG57's data is sound, wouldn't it be safe to dilute <= 30mg/ml of Diazepam into Everclear 190?

 

If that method is safe my thinking was:

 

1) Place 10X10mg tablets Valium into a 100ml graduated cylinder

2) Pour approximately 5ml of Everclear 190 onto those tablets

3) Wait an hour or so (is alcohol evaporating a problem here?)

4) Add 75ml of lukewarm filtered tap water and 20ml of glycerine (flavoring)

5) Pour the mixture into amber glass container and shake resulting in 100ml of 1mg/1ml Diazepam solution.

 

Just a couple of comments:

 

1) It really isn't "SG57's data".  Its a compilation and reconstruction of the original Jouyban data.  Based on the time I spent analyzing it, I saw not reason to question it.  Jouyban is probably the most respected researcher on pharma solubility.

 

2)  I think you will find (as several of us have) that a graduated cylinder is NOT a very suitable mixing vessel.  I think you will have much greater success using the cylinder to measure your liquids, and use your glass container for mixing/storage.

[[To...]]

 

1) It really isn't "SG57's data".  Its a compilation and reconstruction of the original Jouyban data.  Based on the time I spent analyzing it, I saw not reason to question it.  Jouyban is probably the most respected researcher on pharma solubility.

 

Good to hear.

 

2)  I think you will find (as several of us have) that a graduated cylinder is NOT a very suitable mixing vessel.  I think you will have much greater success using the cylinder to measure your liquids, and use your glass container for mixing/storage.

 

I appreciate the warning, my thinking was it would be best to concentrate the very low volume of alcohol and tablets into a small space (bottom of the graduated cylinder) so that the chemistry can better take place. Then I could add the water and glycerin to the solution to get exactly 100ml. The 'mixing' would happen after I transfer the liquid into the amber glass container I'll be storing it in, which I'll shake for 30 seconds or so and leave it at that.

 

As far as I understand, glycerin and ethanol are both highly water soluble (nothing will float to the top or separate over time), and I want to make a large batch of what I hope will be a stable solution that doesn't require refrigeration or daily agitation (shaking). I've been suffering severe brain fog and other sxs that I can't predict. So I want to make sure my solute is always available, easy to administer, and reliably 1mg/1ml.

 

I do have my compound pharmacy suspension of 1mg/1ml in the fridge as a backup if this experiment with the Everclear 190 doesn't work out.

 

I will try to report back with my results.

[[bu...]]

 

I appreciate the warning, my thinking was it would be best to concentrate the very low volume of alcohol and tablets into a small space (bottom of the graduated cylinder) so that the chemistry can better take place. Then I could add the water and glycerin to the solution to get exactly 100ml. The 'mixing' would happen after I transfer the liquid into the amber glass container I'll be storing it in, which I'll shake for 30 seconds or so and leave it at that.

 

As far as I understand, glycerin and ethanol are both highly water soluble (nothing will float to the top or separate over time), and I want to make a large batch of what I hope will be a stable solution that doesn't require refrigeration or daily agitation (shaking). I've been suffering severe brain fog and other sxs that I can't predict. So I want to make sure my solute is always available, easy to administer, and reliably 1mg/1ml.

 

I do have my compound pharmacy suspension of 1mg/1ml in the fridge as a backup if this experiment with the Everclear 190 doesn't work out.

 

I will try to report back with my results.

 

I think to correct term is "miscible", but yes, both glycerin and ETOH can readily be diluted with water.

 

Your diluted alcohol/water solution should be superior to the compounded liquid.  Most compounded benzos are suspensions, NOT solutions.

[[Yo...]]

 

It's been confirmed on the valium support thread that 1ml of 80 proof (40%) vodka is enough to dissolve approx 16mg of valium.

 

That's from an original post that I made.  This was early in the days of liquid tapering, and was based on some info I had found.

 

But some time later BB SG57 found much more detailed,  lab-researched data on solubility (He and I argued about for several months  )

 

For most benzos, 1ml of 80 proof is just barely sufficient to dissolve 1mg of benzo.  The safest ratio is 1mg per 2ml 80 proof vodka.

 

Hi,

 

How long do you let the pill sit in the vodka for before adding your liquid? Any special recommendations for Klonopin? Thank you.

[[bu...]]

In vodka or PG, benzos will dissolve very quickly, a matter of minutes.

[[as...]]

Hey.  You would never know that I was in the math honor society in high school these days.

 

Quick question: So based on the instructions, I assume one is trying to dissolve the equivalent of the daily dose (being the starting daily dose-- you currently are tapering from a 10mg dose, so that's the daily dose) into 1ml of liquid. Correct? So if I have 30ml, I want 30 daily doses in the bottle?

 

I was just trying to figure out why you did 20 days worth, I guess.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[[bu...]]

Hey.  You would never know that I was in the math honor society in high school these days.

 

Quick question: So based on the instructions, I assume one is trying to dissolve the equivalent of the daily dose (being the starting daily dose-- you currently are tapering from a 10mg dose, so that's the daily dose) into 1ml of liquid. Correct? So if I have 30ml, I want 30 daily doses in the bottle?

 

I was just trying to figure out why you did 20 days worth, I guess.

 

Thanks!

 

Probably the best system is to mix enough to last 10-14 days, then just draw up and drink the scheduled dose(s) for the day. 

 

This eliminates the need to make a fresh batch each day, and lets you simply take the scheduled dose amount without drawing out and discarding the "cut"

[[ma...]]

I crush my Valium tablets then add the Everclear ... good to go !

[[Di...]]

Hi, what would you recommend for 1 mg. of ativan micro taper?

I have been on it for 10 years for sleep.  Thank you for any help.