I am truly in Hell...please help

[[Mo...]]

Dear One Year, Intend and Chailiss99....Challisis I was not on 1 Mg. Xanax. I varied the .25 doses

from one to three times a day. Once in a while four times a day. I was only there for 20 days. The doc there wanted to give me tons more xanax I said no to him. He said it has AD properties! Gees. I feel that no one is fully understanding things here. I love you all and I appreciate the help and support more than you know but some things feel incorrect when I read your replies. It could be I am not articulating things correctly. Intend...when I got off benzos in the past it was for only a couple weeks at a time twice in the 39 years when I was younger and about 8 years ago I got down to one quarter a day of a .5 k. Didn't last terribly long. I have been much more on them than off. I was once prescribed 30 Mg. Serax four tomes a day and took that a pretty long time. Talk about intersperse w/d. I tapered myself off when my sister died tragically. My body was in shock and getting off was easy. I didn't sustain it more than a couple of weeks. Intend something bizarre happened to me. You may be correct in all you said but it doesn't feel right. It may be right but it doesn't feel correct. One Year (Paul)...TY for writing. I do battle depression. Someone told me to not c/o to V because of this. IDK. I know I am in HELL and Gabapentin which I have may help. I have 100 Mg. Capsules to take 3x a day. Is that enough? I heard the s/d is bad so I want to stay away from it. I tried tiny tiny dozing of Zyprexa which helped a lot but on the 5th day when it wore off I got violent agitation az I do with SSRI mess so I stopped. I took a little more when it happened which eased it but I didn't want to beg caught up in another bad med cycle. Going back up higher seems all wrong. I know it may work and may help but it may not then I have yo go through hell all over again. Please help given all I have said. Thank you.

marian

[[on...]]

Marian,

 

I take 300 mg. gabapentin 3X daily.  As I said it helps me but I sure understand why one wouldn't want to start it if they didn't need it.  Second, I do understand how you feel about going back up being all wrong.  I told you I went up because a doc said I was lowered too quickly.  I thought that was best for me.  But, on the other hand there isn't a day in my life that I don't wonder - if I hadn't gone back up would I be all done by now with the tapering and ready to go on to what's next???  Would I be six months into being benzo free?  if my doc didn't put me back up I might be, but I was really in trouble and truly unable to comply with my scripts.

 

If you can make it without going back up on your dose then I understand why you would want to avoid going back up.  Someone above recommended that to you pretty strongly.  I just recommended the opposite and I realize it can seem like we're all crazy if we contradict each other.  Well, we may be a little crazy, but we're all here, you aren't alone, but you gotta decide what's best for you.

 

If you make mistakes at this point so be it.  You are on the path and that's so much better than continuing down the path you were on.  It does get better.  Really.

[[Mo...]]

Thanks Paul. I hear you. I am in sheer Hell lord knows. The doctor here in the ward in December actually tried me on tiny doses of ADDERAL! Can you imagine? I tried it a few times. Wonder if that made me finally snap!?

[[on...]]

Marian,

 

Wow!  Adderal?  When I was really abusing Xanax I would abuse either Ritalin or Adderal to keep me moving.  It helped me function when I was really impaired; but it made me anxious.  It stimulates you - the last thing you would need in benzo withdrawal.  I'm shocked a doc would do this.

 

So many people give you so much advice.  One thing that worked for me was to share daily how I was doing.  Even on bad days you are getting closer to getting through this.

 

I'm supposed to be looking for a job and I get paralyzed.  I feel like I can't work.  Once I think I can't do something I feel that my mind plays tricks on me and I can be negative and I feel like I make my symptoms worse so I just want to sleep.  But, I'm going to make it one more day which is good.  One day at a time.

 

How about you?  How are you doing today?

 

Paul

[[Ch...]]

You've gotten a lot of good responses, Marian, and lots of information. 

 

As I see it, here's the bottom line…no need to increase your Klonopin if you can stand the 'sheer hell' you're in.  That's the only reason to increase… to get out of hell.  I believe, as Intend said, that an increase will alleviate your symptoms to some degree.  She knows her stuff and that's why I asked her to help you.  She has researched these meds to the nth degree and also has personal experience with X, K and V.

 

We've all had problems trying to sift through the information you've given in different posts.  If we haven't gotten it correct, it's not for a lack of trying.  We do really want to help you.

 

I still believe you're primarily suffering from the c/t of Xanax two months ago.  In a PM to me you said you didn't believe that could be the case because it's been out of your system so long.  That doesn't matter.  Your GABA receptors are down-regulated… they can't calm your body and brain like they are supposed to.  They will, but it takes a lot of time for them to heal.

 

I also believe the several times you've gone on and off benzos have set you up for a difficult withdrawal, like most of us here. 

 

Please listen to what people are telling you, then make your decision about how to proceed.  We'll support whatever your decision is. 

 

So, to be clear, here are the pertinent facts as I understand them:

 

c/t in late January from Xanax, ranging from .25 to 1mg daily.

Currently on 1.5mg of K and 5mg of Valium daily. 

 

You can keep cutting the K and hold the V.

You can hold the K and the V.

You can cross to either all K or all V and taper from there.  (I was the one who suggested V might be too depressing for someone who has pre-existing depression.)

You can correct your dose upwards until your symptoms are bearable.

 

It's up to you.  We just give the info and you need to decide what you do next.  Whatever it is, we will support you.

 

Challis 

[[Mo...]]

Marian,

 

Wow!  Adderal?  When I was really abusing Xanax I would abuse either Ritalin or Adderal to keep me moving.  It helped me function when I was really impaired; but it made me anxious.  It stimulates you - the last thing you would need in benzo withdrawal.  I'm shocked a doc would do this.

 

So many people give you so much advice.  One thing that worked for me was to share daily how I was doing.  Even on bad days you are getting closer to getting through this.

 

I'm supposed to be looking for a job and I get paralyzed.  I feel like I can't work.  Once I think I can't do something I feel that my mind plays tricks on me and I can be negative and I feel like I make my symptoms worse so I just want to sleep.  But, I'm going to make it one more day which is good.  One day at a time.

 

How about you?  How are you doing today?

 

Paul

 

Thanks Paul. I hear you. I cannot work. Just stay in bed. I am a little better today thanks. I am sick of the constant adrenal rushes coursing through me. I went to an endocrinologist to rule out a medical cause! There is none and he said he'd never heard of this as have my shrink and therapist (said same thing). I hope you are doing ok today. Let me know. One minute I think I feel better, next minute I am in utter hell

[[Mo...]]

Challis99...very good and clear. Only one mistake. I am om 1.25 mg. K a day with a 5 mg. V at bedtime (along with the.25 K to equal a .5 K). So...total of equivalent of 1.5 K a day. I don't think I should go straight to V from K as per Ashton there has to be a c/o period where you mix them, hence my mixing the night dose. I take these doses 8 hours apart. I also take 10 mg Propranolol 3 to 4 x day plus halves of a Benadryl tablet 3 to 4x a day.

[[Ch...]]

Challis99...very good and clear. Only one mistake. I am om 1.25 mg. K a day with a 5 mg. V at bedtime (along with the.25 K to equal a .5 K). So...total of equivalent of 1.5 K a day. I don't think I should go straight to V from K as per Ashton there has to be a c/o period where you mix them, hence my mixing the night dose. I take these doses 8 hours apart. I also take 10 mg Propranolol 3 to 4 x day plus halves of a Benadryl tablet 3 to 4x a day.

 

I put the 1.25mg and the .25 together since they are taken daily.

[[no...]]

Hi here's the links for taper tables hope this helps

 

Topic: Example of a Valium/Diazepam Daily Reduction Method http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=97511.msg1248599#msg1248599

 

Pill splitting taper table http://www.benzobuddies.org/benzodiazepine-withdrawal-methods/direct-taper stepping-off-table

 

Nova xxxx  :smitten:

[[Mo...]]

Thank you Nova 1 for the links. I will look. I still don't know whether or not to crossover or go straight from Klonopin

Marian

[[Mo...]]

Hi mosart.

 

I also know how you feel. I'd like to try to help you get back "on the right track."

 

First of all, I agree with you about taking gabapentin. It seems to have helped some people, but as JennyK says, it does have a withdrawl syndrome also and requires a taper. So I wouldn't take it either unless you felt it was necessary. And the same holds true for zypexa (which is an antipsychotic). In fact, it probably would be better to avoid all these other psych meds as you've already stated you plan on doing.

 

Propanolol is a beta blocker which you may need for palpitations, arrythmias, or even anxiety. So for now, that drug does seem necessary. It's not a psych med, but if you decide eventually to get off it, just be sure to taper it also. And benedyl is an OTC antihistamine, so that's ok for helping you get some rest and for sleep.

 

So if I'm reading your initial post correctly, you're on 1.5 mg K and 5 mg V as a current daily dose right now. I realize that this is in several dosing times, but it wasn't completely clear to me from you post of it's 1.5 mg K or 1.25 mg K daily. No matter what dose of K it is, I strongly feel you need to stop tapering right now and try to decide how to handle this before doing else. I think you are correct when you stated that your doctor made a mistake by taking you off X completely thinking the remaining K would cover it. You were taking the equivalent of 3 mg of X or 3 mg of K before, and thinking that 2 mg of K would somehow cover that deficit is, in my opinion, completely incorrect thinking on the part of your physician. However, reading that you felt "normal" on the equivalent of 3 mgs of X or 3 mgs K is actually very good news. It tells me that most likely you can get there again if you just stop tapering, and give your CNS some time to settle down again.

 

Since you're already trying to stabilize on K, perhaps we could focus in on doing that and you can consider the Valium crossover later. You did say that you had increased the K to 1.5 mg just 2 days ago. Actually, since you've been tapering it, you've probably just increased your withdrawal not only from the X cold turkey, but also have now added K w/d to it. And most people take somewhere between 3-14 days to fully build up any amount of K in their system, so that 1.5 mg may not be fully built up yet. So considering that part of it, and also considering that you've most likely had your CNS settle a little bit on a lesser dose of 1 mg X by being off of it for 2 months, we're not really sure where you're at at the moment. You're definitely somewhere between 1.25 mg K and 3 mg K, but that's a lot of "benzo territory."

 

And another possible problem is that you've been on 2 benzos for years from what you've said. The brain gets used to that, and although many people are on only one benzo, others are on 2 of them, so taking one away all of a sudden is another shock to your CNS. Transitioning to 1 benzo may take many people a few weeks or a few months.

 

So with all this in mind, I'm going to suggest that you continue to let that 1.5 K build up in your system and add a small amount of X. You might try perhaps .125 mg X (1/2 tab of .25 mg X). You will get some immediate relief from the X, and the K will continue to build up. Then it that doesn't "do it" as far as feeling more stable over a few days, try adding another .125 mg X, and allow the K buildup to continue. At some point here, you will need to possibly add in another bit of K. I think keeping the ratio between X and K at one proportion of X to 2 proportions of K is a good idea as that is what your CNS was accustomed to.

 

Remember, you can always use .0625 mg X (1/4 of a .25 mg X tab) also. And this "working up to a stable combo" doesn't have to be perfect as far as that proportion I mentioned. I just think that you do need a combo here for stability as that immediate drop of X not only put you into acute X w/ds, but it also kind of "shocked" your CNS into that immediate drop to 1 benzo when your brain was used to 2 benzos.

 

So I think you need to try to achieve some kind of stability between the original 3 mg of benzo and the 1.5 mg of K you're now on using 2 benzos again. Only you will know where that feeling of stability or "normal" is, but it's there somewhere between 1.5 mg of benzo and 3 mg benzo. And I completely agree with JennyK. "Pushing through" when you feel as sick as you've described isn't an option for many people. It does take time, and only you know when you'll feel well enough to taper. This is often an "exercise" in patience as we struggle to get that stability. When the CNS has been destabilized, it can take several months of just staying on a steady dose of a benzo to be stable.

 

I crossed over to K from Xanax myself. I'd been on Xanax for 10 years. And my doctor tried to switch me overnight to K. I just couldn't do it because K takes days to build up in your system. It does vary by each individual. And when I couldn't make the switch overnight, my doctor just put me back on X again. This happened to me 4 times in 6 months. I was a mess. The Xanax stopped working for me, and I couldn't get on K either. I finally took control myself, and even though I felt shaky and nervous on Xanax, I crossed myself to K slowly over a 6 month period. And my CNS has never taken to K. It's given me awful side effects. But in order to establish stability on it, I held my dose of K for over a year. I've never felt good on it, but now I'm tapering it. I'm only telling you this because we do often require patience.

 

INTEND I HOPE I AM NOT POSTING BETWEEN YOUR WORDS. I AM IN BED ON A LOUSY TABLET. I HEAR YOU. THIS IS A CONUNDRUM AND SEVERAL PEOPLE HAVE TOLD ME TO GO BACK UP AND GET STABLE TO GET OUT OF THIS TOLERANCE HELL YOU EXPLAINED WELL. I TRIED TO ADD A XANAX THE OTHER DAY. IT HELPED IN A "COCKTAIL" WITH BENADRYL AND KLONOPIN. BUT I HAVE STILL OPTED MOSTLY TO STAY ON. 5 KLONOPIN EVETY 8 HOURS 3X A DAY. WITH HALVES OF BENADRYL A FEW TIMES A DAY AND TWO LOW DOSE PROPANOLOL A DAY TO HELP. I AM STILL IN HELL BUT AS PER DR ADHTON I DON'T WANT TO GO BAVK. I WANT TO KERP TRYING TO TOUGH IT OUT ALBEIT SOMETIMES IT IS INTOLERABLE. SHE SAYS IT IS A BAD IDEA TO RE-UP OR TO ADD MORE BACK BECAUSE THE BRAIN AND BODY CAN ONLY BEGIN TO HEAL WHEN THE DTUG IS OUT OF US. I MAY HAVE TO RESORT TO VERY SMALL DOSES OF GABAPENTIN BUT STILL AVOIDING IT. I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT OF VIEW AND ASHTON'S AND I GO BACK SND FORTH. BUT I HAVE A GRAM SCALE ON ITS WAY AND WANT TO BEGIN A TAPER EVEN WHILE IN A ROUGH TIME. I JUST NEED A VETY SIMPLE PLAN FROM SOMEONE OF HOW MUCH TO CUT WITH NO MATH. JUST SIMPLE. I DID DI LIQUID TAPER FOR ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE DAYS TAKING 1ML OUT OF MY ENTIRE DAY'S DOSE PER DAY. I DID NOT GET WORSE (OR BETTER) BUT THE LIQUID IS A PAIN AND I WENT BACK TO DRY PILLS. I HOPE TO HEAR FTOM YOU AND I HOPE YOU ARE DOJNG WELL.

 

Once again, I think you need to work your way up to that "somewhere" between 1.5 mg of benzo and 3 mg benzo using 2 benzos like your brain is used to. Then I think you need to get that stability by holding on that constant dose until you feel ready to begin a taper.

 

 

Getting to one benzo (if that's what you want) or trying Valium (if that's what you want) can wait for some stability here. Also, Valium takes longer than 2 weeks to build up in your system, and it also can be depressing for some people. I know your taking 5 mg of it already (and don't stop that for heavens sake), but Valium at larger doses (like 30 or 40 mg) can depress some people.

 

I hope this post was understandable for you. It is long, but I thought we needed to address all the issues here.

 

Intend

[[In...]]

Mozart,

 

I'm sorry that things are still giving you a very rough time. Im glad you tried liquid titration, but it's true, it does require some preparation. I think I read where you were using water to do it. While some people do use water with success, I find that many use whole fat milk instead. The theory there is that the drug binds to the fat in the milk and creates a suspension. I'm using milk myself because I find that works for me, and with this method, you can cut extremely small amounts of milligrams. But again, aside from preparation, you need to keep fresh milk on hand, and you need to have leak proof jars.

 

So leaving that aside, let me just say that for some an up dose to achieve stability will work while it will not work for others. If people have done a rapid taper, a cold turkey, switched around and taken a lot of other meds, or tapered previously, all of this sensitizes the CNS, so an up dose may be ineffective, and yet your receptors will expect that increase, so now you have to taper off an

increased amount that isn't even helping you. But having said this, we are all individuals, so up dosing does work for many people. And that concept from Ashton is true in the context of getting all the drug out of your system to finally let your CNS recover w/o the benefit of these drugs, but she also advocated a taper to allow the CNS to gradually adjust to lower and lower amounts of benzo. So that "quote" is often taken out of context I think. And many believe (including me) that Ashton was the ultimate pioneer of realizing the difficulty that benzos cause, and she certainly was the only one to research them thoroughly, but we are now in a "different time," and many ideas of hers she has changed herself. Some of these are the addition of liquid tapering, gram scale tapering, using an antidepressant (as it also has a withdrawl syndrome), and the amount of time for holding after a cut.

 

So now you would like to try the gram scale method. It's definitely worth a shot. The general idea is that you use your scale to weigh about 10 pills. And you add the weights up and then you get an average weight by dividing by 10. So that's your guide weight for all following pills that you cut. If you are cutting .5 mg pills, you weigh 10 of them individually, add up those weights, divide by 10, and that's your average weight. Then each day, (if doing a daily cut), you weigh your pill, and then you file it down using (I think) an emery type file. From what you I've read, most people file it down by .001 grams as that's the lowest weight the scale measures. So let's say your average .5 mg pill weighs .170 grams, you'd weigh you're pill, and if it weighed .171 grams, you'd file it down to .169 grams (because remember your average weight is .170 grams) and that's your dose for that particular part of your daily dosing schedule. The next pill of your daily dosing schedule may weigh .170 grams, so you'd file that one down to .169 grams also. And so on for your daily dosing schedule.

 

Numerous people find that they prefer to only file down one dose per day, while others (on a 3 time dosing schedule) may file down 2 doses. And many also prefer to hold on any cut or cuts they've made by waiting 2-3 days before cutting again. And additionally, many also take some time to file down a weeks worth of pills and put them in a pill dispenser once they get a patter figured out that suits their particular tapering "comfort" level.

 

There is a "pinned" section here on BB that gives a good demonstration of using the scale. You first go to Planning Your Taper, then under General Taper Plans, the first "pinned" section is in an " peach" color, and there's your demonstration called FYI Gram Scale.YouTube also has demonstrations.

 

BB etown also has an explanation at http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=92221.0

 

And then I would refer you to the Klonopin Klub under Support groups. It seems to me, most of the members are using a scale to taper. They go to extensive lengths to explain this tapering method, so I would hope they would help you. If, however your post gets "referred back" to General Taper Plans, I would suggest that you start a thread that says something like "I need help tapering klonopin with a scale."

 

I hope this information is of help to you.

 

Intend

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[Kg...]]

Mozart: I will try and help you understand the daily taper using the scale if that is what you wish to do. First go to Amazon and order one - it usually costs about $20+ dollars - get the best one you can afford but it must weigh .001 grams accurately.  As Intend said you need to weigh 10 of your .5 klonopin pills and then take an average - so you weigh 10 pills and divide by 10 and you will get what your average klonopin pill weighs.  Mine weigh .172 - so this is the number I always use.  You are on 1.25 ( I am not counting the Valium) Most of us try to keep our dosing even but you must do what works for you.  Decide where you wish to start - I use a box cut type razor and a metal nail file plus a small flat mirror to do my cuts.  I also have a 4 week pill container since I cut my pills for about a week and 1/2 at a time not every day.  I will show you what it looks like.

 

Let us just start with your .5 and .5 - doses  - to make my math challenged benzo brain work, I am leaving out your .25 and the Valium figure that stays the same:  If you pills weigh out at .172 you will cut as follows

 

Day 1    .172        .171

      2    .171        .171

      3  .170          .171

      4  .170          .170

      5    .170        .170  this is a hold day since you are just starting you may want to hold 2 days here to see how you feel

      6    .170        .170

      7    .169          .170 and on and on

 

If you don't feel great then just hold.  I know you also have the .25 to consider but you need your pill weight to figure out what your .25 pill weighs.  Since you are doing very small cuts off of the .5 mg pills it is easier to start with the metal nail file - one swipe or 2 should get the .001 gram off of the pill.  Don't go back and re weigh your pills this will make you nuts.  Just weigh as if what you weighed was accurate.  Most of us doing this go by the gram weight but to figure out how much klonopin you are taking you take your total dose in gram weight .172 + .172 =.344 divide by your pill weight .172 multiple by .5 and you get 1 mg of klonopin -which is where we started. 

 

I know it sounds hard but you get used to it and it becomes pretty easy over time.  This way you control your taper, it is still your pill form and if you want to hold you can - if you feel fine you can add in a .002 cut every few days to increase your rate but that is in the future for you - for now you need to just tell yourself I can do this -I will do this and I will deal with my s/x as they come.  We are all here to support you  - so come over to the klonopin board - where your fellow K buddies all are. 

 

Intend:  Good to see you - and I hope you are feeling okay.  Miss your posts.

 

[[Mo...]]

Thank you Intend. I can't even move from bed. I was doing fine on liquid pulling 1 ml per day of my drug water. I know milk is best but I don't drink dairy or alcohol so did water. Used a mortar and pestle and 250 ml water for all three doses. Shook vigorously often. Divided into three small jars for my three doses. Someone told me I was pulling too much too fast. I panicked and stopped. I was going for an 8 month taper/titration. I can't take the hell longer. I went back to dry pills and back to. 5 K every 8 hours three times daily with the help of halves of benadryl and a little propanolol. Shrink wants me to go on gabapentin. I am avoiding it. But so bad two days ago I took a .25 xanax. I wasgoing to ferry Ashton c/o but stayed at stage two over a month while deciding. I liked the 5 Mg. V with the. 25 K nighttime equivalent but when I got to 10 Mg. V only tor night dose I don't feel too well with V. Only if it's mixed with the K. I am very suicidal. I can't do that.

[[In...]]

Kgirl,

 

I'm glad to see you too. Im doing ok with my cuts so far. Just building up my cut rate slowly.

 

I'm glad you're going to help Mozart if she decides to use a scale.

 

And as the British would say, "I just kind of lost the plot"on the KK thread with everyone doing the scale and me doing titration.

 

But I'm definitely still on klonopin, and slowly but surely dropping the dose.

[[In...]]

Mozart,

 

Well,

 

Once again, I think we both recognize that liquid titration requires that preparation that I mentioned.

 

And unfortunately, math comes into figuring out how much you were titrating.

 

So let's see if you were going too fast or cutting too much.

 

I'm setting up an equation to see how many mg you were pulling.

 

250 ml : 1.5 mg = 1 ml : X mg. X mg is the unknown amount of milligrams you were pulling.

 

1.5 mg times 1 ml = 1.5. Then divide 1.5 by 250, and that = .006. That means you were pulling .006 mg from your daily dose. That is considered pretty high for a liquid titration of klonopin.

 

This makes me wonder if you were getting the full amount that should be in a titrated daily dose of klonopin. And it's also why I think milk is recommended because of those fat binding properties.

 

For people who are lactose intolerant, Lactaid works just as well. A starting pull of klonopin would be  in the neighborhood of .001 mg in a daily cut. You can always be increase it by increasing the amount of liquid. And another idea is to titrate one .5 mg pill while you take the other two doses in pill form.

 

It's not impossible that you can tolerate a cut of .006 mg per day of K, but it's highly unusual I think.

 

Another suspending agent is OraPlus. I have never used it, but it also works well for keeping the particles of K suspended while you take the cut. I think it's available on Amazon, but you'll need to read the instructions for using it.

 

When we taper, it's important to just throw out the calendar and let how we feel be the guide as to how much to cut. But having said that, you can still try your water titration again. Just remember to work very fast. And I wouldn't recommend a mortar and pestle. Some of the K can be left on it in the form of dust.

 

If you put your pills in the water 12 to 24 hours ahead of time, they will dissolve completely in that time. You just need to periodically reach in the fridge and shake up the jar you put them in like you were doing. And I measure my liquid with a 60 ml syringe. I get them from vitality medical.

 

There are a few people here on both K and V. Kgirl who just posted is one of them. Not everyone can take Valium because it does cause different sx for a lot of people. If that's the case, I think they keep the dose of V small.

 

If you can tolerate a higher cut of K like you were doing with the titration, then maybe the scale will work for you. I'm not a "scale" person, because I learned titration awhile back, and I'm extremely sensitive so those cuts would be too much for me.

 

But you could very well do fine using a scale.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[Mo...]]

Thanks intend. I am at a loss as to what to do. Please read my latest post. Then please talk more to me. I was pulling that much because I didn't want the agony to last more than about 8 months. I do know there would be sx for maybe even years after the taper too. I am suffering so much I have to not try to stabalize. It won't work unless I put back two. 25 Xanax into the mix or mix a 5mg. V with a .25 K at night dose which seemed to help. That is the equivalent of a .5 K. I just wouldn't know how to titrate/taper from 2 kinds of benzos. Do you? Also...I can't do any dairy. I am vegan. The mortar and pestle was good because I rinsed it well and put in the larger drug water jar with some of the 250 ml water from the cylinder. I don't know if dry cutting will work out. I don't have a clue how much to cut. I was going to cut 1/8 pill every two weeks holding if need be. I am so far gone from not knowing what to do including staying on benzos for life. I am suffering too much. But I do want off. Again it is greatly appreciated if you will read my latest post and get back to me. I have to begin and commit to something quickly. TY

[[In...]]

Hi Mozart.

 

I left the house soon after our conversation yesterday which is the reason for the delay in getting back to you. I often leave my iPad on while I'm gone so it probably seems im here when im not. Just an explanation for my absence.

 

First of all, "regular" dry cutting means you just get a good, strong cutting tool and cut your pill on a stable surface as you know. And you're basically "eyeballing" and estimating the accuracy of your cuts. So if you decided to do it this way (which others have done also), then cutting each .5 mg pill into eighths means each piece is .0625 mg. Then you drop your daily dose by that .0625 mg as often as you feel you can tolerate the withdrawl sx. If this is a daily drop, the w/d sx are likely to accumulate and possibly be hard to take, but however you would handle this is completely up to you. Most people doing it this way would likely wait until w/d sx settled down which could be anywhere from 2-4 weeks. Once again, it's an individual process as far as how you're body will react and how you decide to handle it.

 

Using a gram scale is also dry cutting, but it gives you more accuracy that your cuts are .0625 mg. So you could also do this using a scale. And that also gives you the option of cutting much smaller if you decided to do that. Please don't be "put off" by math conversions using a scale because it's all very easy, and people are here to help you. I will help you do that, and so will people on the KK thread if you decide to use a scale. And you'll soon learn quickly how to use the scale.

 

As far as stabilizing by adding back some milligrams of benzos, that's definitely up to you. There are several people here on BB on 2 benzos at the same time. From what ive read and seen, they taper one of them first, and then taper the other one. Another way to handle that is to convert one of the benzos into the other one by using the equivalent milligrams so you end up on one benzo.

 

I did look up the ingredients in Lactaid, and it does contain milk (just not the lactose) so it wouldn't work for your vegan diet. That does leave you with water for titration, but you can still consider OraPlus as a suspending agent. And I neglected to mention that you might consider a compounding pharmacy to make up a K solution for you to titrate.

 

And for the titration itself, it's once again up to you how fast and at what dose you titrate. It sounds like you know what you're doing as far as the mortar and pestle by rinsing them with some of your titration liquid. And it's not necessarily true that you'll suffer with sx afterwards for years. The way and length of time it takes for us to recover is very individual and varies from person to person.

 

If one method that you try doesn't seem to work out for you, you can always try another one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[Mo...]]

Thank you Intend. Is it ok to reinstate something? I have to get out of hell first. I took a .25 xanax a few days ago...put it in the mix. It helped. Yesterday I had no relief from terror morning to night so I added a 5 mg. Valium to my mix with my .5 Klonopin. Still using Benadryl and propranolol daily in small doses. I don't know what happened to make me "snap" since January. My shrink wants me to try gabapentin but I am afraid to. Heck I am afraid of everything.  The scale arrives today. Please tell me how that works. I really would like to try cutting an eighth of a .5 k every week or two, holding if I have to. Regular cutting could have worked I suppose.  Liquid works but it's a pain. K is ineffective and seems to give me paradoxical effects anymore. Wish I could switch from k to xanax.

[[el...]]

Hi Mozart,

 

I thought I would reply to you here instead of in a pm as I want any tapering advice I give to be 'public' where other buddies and mods will see what I am writing.

 

Between Kgirl and Intend you have all the info you need to do either a liquid titration or gram scale.  I have used the scale with success - I have gotten off k by using a box cutter and making 5-8% cuts every 2-3 weeks.  Now I am tapering off v using the same method.

 

As you know, there is no easy answer or quick fix.  Getting off benzos safely requires a consistent methodical approach, making adjustments if necessary if life issues come up.  Your long term use will not prevent you from getting off if this is what you want and you taper safely.

 

First, you must become stable on a dose comfortable for you.  If you already stopped taking Valium, this may not be the best thing right now.  It is longer lasting in your body than k and may help with getting off k first.  My suggestion his to get to a stable dose for at least two weeks and then take stock of how you are feeling.  If you feel well enough at that point,you can try a 5% k cut and go slooowly down from there.

 

I will be offline as I am traveling to NJ tomorrow but will check back when I can.

 

Ellen 

[[Mo...]]

Ellen, I added back a 5 mg. Valium last night. I could keep it while I make cuts to k. I do not understand percentages. I get the scale today but I was just going to cut my pills by 1/8 and try that weekly or every two weeks. I can keep the valium but I get a bad reaction to v unless it is mixed with k. I wish I could reinstate two .25 xanax a day. Don't know what to do. Doc wants me to go on gabapentin for my severe anxiety. At a loss. How much is a 5% cut of k?

[[el...]]

If, for example, you are taking .5 mg klonopin, a 5% cut would leave you at .475 mg.

 

By weight on the scale, the .5 mg tablet weighs approx. 170 - so a 5% cut will leave you with a weight of 161.5

 

Glad you added back the valium, 5 mg is too much to stop without a taper.

 

Ellen

[[el...]]

If, for example, you are taking .5 mg klonopin, a 5% cut would leave you at .475 mg.

 

By weight on the scale, the .5 mg tablet weighs approx. 170 - so a 5% cut will leave you with a weight of 161.5

 

Glad you added back the valium, 5 mg is too much to stop without a taper.

 

Ellen

[[Mo...]]

Ellen2012... but I had already taken away the 5 Mg. V over a week or two ago and replaced it with the equivalent. 25 k. This was stage two of the c/o. I held there over a month because I couldn't decide whether or not to try the c/o again. I have to figure this out. I don't know what to do. I will keep using halves of benadryl and a little propanolol to help. Don't know about gabapentin yet. Don't know about adding back v or x or staying on for life. K is no longer effective. It is a decision I cannot seem to make. May as well just start cutting the K into eighths and go through hell or with using either xanax or valium

while tapering the k.

[[In...]]

Mozart,

 

I had another busy day yesterday. Gone again all day so I couldn't get back to you, but I am so glad to see Ellen post here with her thoughts. She and Kgirl both have or are taking both klonopin and valium and understand the interaction between the 2 benzos very well. And also, both are using the gram scale.

 

I am liquid titrating as I mentioned before, and I don't have a scale and have never seen one except in pictures and videos here on BB and YouTube. I do understand the math involved in using the scale however. I'm just going to address some of the thoughts and questions you posted to me yesterday.

 

My doctor Rxed some gabapentin for me also last year just before I was advised to hold. I seriously hesitated to take it also. I did fill the prescription, but then I researched it here on BB and online. It does seems to help some people a lot with nerve pain, anxiety, and sleep issues. But once again, this is not uniform across the board. Some people really like its effect while others do not. And then, it's another drug that requires a taper, and some can taper it w/o too much difficulty while others have a lot of trouble. My goal has always been to just be free of these "brain meds," so I've resisted all my doctors attempts to get me to try anti depressants, anti psychotics, and anything else so that included gabapentin (which is an anti convulsant/analgesic). I've never been on anything but benzos (Xanax, Klonopin), and this klonopin has given me no end of problems, so I can't see the sense of adding to my trouble (possibly) plus having another drug to taper. Well, these thoughts apply to me, and you have to decide for yourself.

 

As for reinstating, I think we all know that it's kind of a "crap shoot," but it sounds like you've already done some of this with success. I do think that what caused you to "snap" was the "removal" of Xanax by your doctor.  Anytime people just stop taking a "regular" dose of any benzo, there could be a variety of reactions. Some may be fine, some may react with a seizure, and some may go into different degrees of withdrawl. When I switched myself from Xanax to klonopin (after plenty of ineptness by my doctor), I only switched .25 X for .25 K to begin, and within 5 days, I had horrendous panic and terror. I finally ended up in the ER. But after the K took effect, the rest of the cross went smoothly. I only wish I could say that klonopin was a drug that had worked better for me overall. So it does seem like your reinstatement of the Xanax has helped you. And if you feel better, then the reinstatement worked for you. I think another thing to consider is that I do not think that a benzo is a benzo is a benzo.

 

In other words, they are all just a bit different in some ways. They do vary by hitting different sub receptors so that while klonopin (for example) may hit some of the same ones as Xanax, it may also NOT hit others, so your brain can feel this, and there's this feeling of withdrawl w/o the combination of both. Well, that's been my experience anyway. I was fine on Xanax alone, but as I tried to cross to klonopin, I would get to 2 msg of K + .5 mg of X, and things were ok, but beyond that point, I just really felt that absence of X. And of course, this cross was tried several times (which caused the kindling effect for me), and I frankly became exasperated with my doctor and did it myself. She had also advised me to up dose my X which is why I ended up on 3 mg of K. Long story here, but hopefully I'm on the right path now. But perhaps that's why your klonopin seems ineffective to you. Your brain is used to having more than one benzo, and some combination of these (whether it's X and K, K and V, or X, K and V) seems to work better for you. Only you will know what works for you.

 

This is another reason why I wouldn't recommend crossing back to Xanax by itself. It just may not work out as far as being on one benzo again for one thing. And xanax is short acting so you will most likely have to dose 4 times per day at least. But if you were to cross back, I'd say do it in stages of .125 mg where you exchange .125 mg of K for .125 msg of X. "Going backward" from a longer acting drug like klonopin and valium is not usually done, but it has happened here on BB so it's not unheard of. I just don't know if you want to go through that crossover, put your CNS through more sensitization, and then possibly find it doesn't work out. I think it's just better to settle on a course of benzos here, get as stable as you can, and then begin your taper.

 

Since you're getting your scale today, I hope you can familiarize yourself with how it works. I read that it's always necessary to keep it out of drafts as even they can alter the weighing, and I also read that it's necessary to hit the "tare" button to zero it out before you start weighing again. And then you go through that procedure of weighing 10 pills to get an average weight of you're pills, and that average weight is the weight you go by throughout your taper. So for example, if your average pill weight is .170 grams, and you want to drop your klonopin dose by .0625 mg every 2 weeks or so, then I'll set up an equation here just to guide you a bit.

 

.170 grams : .5 mg = X grams to .0625 mg. And X here is the unknown amount of K grams you want your K pill to weigh after shaving some off of it. So multiply .170 times .0625 which = .010625. Then divide that figure by .5, which is .02125. Then subtract .02125 from your average pill weight of .170.

So .170 - .02125 = .14875 grams which rounds up to .149 grams. So the amount of gram weight you're looking for to get that reduction of .0625 mg is .149 grams on your scale.

 

And for the next reduction, you start with your pill needing to be .149 grams and reduce it the same way. These calculations take place on paper, and I know you not math oriented, but I do think Kgirl, Ellen, and those on the KK thread will help you figure this out. And I will too if you need me to.

 

Intend