Long Term Damage

[[Be...]]

Even all the mice studies that have been done on benzo use, show functional problems with the receptors.  An imbalance.  If they are similar to what happens to humans, then we just need time to heal.

[[Mo...]]

Even all the mice studies that have been done on benzo use, show functional problems with the receptors.  An imbalance.  If they are similar to what happens to humans, then we just need time to heal.

 

we are not mice Beck, we aren't rats either. all those studies are a lot of BS

in my opinion.

[[Ch...]]

Even all the mice studies that have been done on benzo use, show functional problems with the receptors.  An imbalance.  If they are similar to what happens to humans, then we just need time to heal.

 

we are not mice Beck, we aren't rats either. all those studies are a lot of BS

in my opinion.

 

So true Morreweg! 

 

"A drug is a substance that, when injected into a rat, produces a scientific paper." (Dr. Toni Jefferys, PhD)

 

Chin 

[[Mo...]]

Even all the mice studies that have been done on benzo use, show functional problems with the receptors.  An imbalance.  If they are similar to what happens to humans, then we just need time to heal.

 

we are not mice Beck, we aren't rats either. all those studies are a lot of BS

in my opinion.

 

So true Morreweg! 

 

"A drug is a substance that, when injected into a rat, produces a scientific paper." (Dr. Toni Jefferys,

PhD)

 

Chin 

 

Chin. :thumbsup:

[[lo...]]

Hi Babyrex

 

I am sorry you are having such a terrible time.I have been in bed now for 9 months. Can't stand/walk for any length of time. Thanks  for posting the article. I have  been following this story on the UK Government website but it is good to see it being more widely published although that article is 4 years old now. It makes it more likely that health care professionals and the general public will get to hear about it.The cover up in the UK has been a scandal. Please share as widely as possible using Facebook etc even if you don't read it yourself.  They set up an all Party Parliamentary Group in 2008 I think to look at the benzo issue and it continues to meet as far as I know 6 years on. Here is the link if anyone is interested

 

http://www.appgita.com/index.php/in-depth-posts/

 

 

 

Try not to let the dramatic headlines scare you. They are there to get the readers' attention.  There is  no conclusion about the issue of long term brain damage and they are referring to a debate in the 1980s. It says in the article that they don't know if the research results are significant.

 

It is a bit like when they say the incidence of X has doubled, from 1 in 10, 000 to 2 in 10, 000.

 

Most folk will come through this withdrawal process can be seen by the success stories we see here.

 

I was on nitrazepam + various ADZs for 40 years. Still on ADs. Although still in the process of getting better I recently found to my delight that my IQ is the same as 30 years ago even though my concentration is not good and I still can't read very much. The fundamentals are still there. 

 

Keep positive 

 

Fiona

[[...]]

I'm sorry you guys.  My thoughts are so negative as I get little to no relief.  If I just showed some progress my mind would be in a much better place.  At one point for about 2weeks I felt a little bit better.  (30%).  But now I'm back down to 10-20 % and it's never ending.  I HATE being bedridden!!!

 

You haven't been off very long. You will get much, much better as drug free time passes. I too was horribly sick for a long time and got better as drug free time passed. I still have some damage left but I'm not bedridden and can function pretty well with the damage left and enjoy life. Hang in there, it may seem like it will never happen but it will, you will heal and have a life too. Just do what you can to pass the time as best you can.

 

Best regards,

 

Eric

[[Be...]]

My opinion is that some of these mice studies could indicate some of the problems that could be found in humans.  I see some validity in those studies, but know they don't pertain to us humans. 

[[be...]]

my brain is incapable of any damage.

[[...]]

If the people who prescribe benzodiazepines and other damaging drugs think that these drugs don't cause damage to some people, then they will keep on doing to many others what they have done to us. And, the people who take these disgusting drugs will think that taking them will not harm them. It will never end.

 

I'm not a mouse and at 10 plus years free, I still have what I consider considerable damage to my brain and nervous system but I am much better than the early years off. I have reached a plateau in healing, I'm not improving from what I have left. I can function with it but I am not free from symptoms concentrated in the left side of my brain. I'm much better off these horrible drugs than when I was on them so those tapering and in early recover, keep on moving forward. Chances are, you will heal completely like most people do. Don't give up getting free from these horrible poisons, it is worth it to be free and have the chance of living without suffering directly caused by the ingestion of benzo filth.

 

According to Ashton, 10 to 15 percent of users suffer protracted damage so that is 10 to 15 people out of 100. And that is only the people who manage to free themselves from these horrible poisons. Some people never get free due to the horrible suffering caused by these disgusting drugs. Don't give up. Even if there is some residual damage, it is still worth getting off and being free. Most people don't become protracted and even the ones that do will tell you that they feel much better off than on these horrible drugs.

[[...]]

my brain is incapable of any damage.

 

Keep taking benzos and they will prove you wrong.

[[ba...]]

If the people who prescribe benzodiazepines and other damaging drugs think that these drugs don't cause damage to some people, then they will keep on doing to many others what they have done to us. And, the people who take these disgusting drugs will think that taking them will not harm them. It will never end.

 

I'm not a mouse and at 10 plus years free, I still have what I consider considerable damage to my brain and nervous system but I am much better than the early years off. I have reached a plateau in healing, I'm not improving from what I have left. I can function with it but I am not free from symptoms concentrated in the left side of my brain. I'm much better off these horrible drugs than when I was on them so those tapering and in early recover, keep on moving forward. Chances are, you will heal completely like most people do. Don't give up getting free from these horrible poisons, it is worth it to be free and have the chance of living without suffering directly caused by the ingestion of benzo filth.

 

According to Ashton, 10 to 15 percent of users suffer protracted damage so that is 10 to 15 people out of 100. And that is only the people who manage to free themselves from these horrible poisons. Some people never get free due to the horrible suffering caused by these disgusting drugs. Don't give up. Even if there is some residual damage, it is still worth getting off and being free. Most people don't become protracted and even the ones that do will tell you that they feel much better off than on these horrible drugs.

 

I'm so sorry eric.  Such a long time to be brain damaged.  It's all so scary, but I'll be okay with being functional..  Completing daily tasks will help a lot.

 

[[Bi...]]

I do not think the benzo is the problem it's really the glutamate.  This is never talked about as we enjoy taking punches at the pill so much.  I recovered 99% but still have killer tinnitus and Ashton says that sxs is long lived.  Before I jumped I took ONE final 2mg xanax pill just for the hell of it. The T went away almost totally and I felt 100% for 3 days.  3 days of total happiness and then diving back into my tinnitus hell again BUT it taught me there is NO damage, only glutamate remains in the benzo's wake.  I also believe more than ever in extra slow 3 to 4 year long super tapers.  Too late for me now but I should have crawled for an extra year in the critical 3 to 1.5 mg range. 6 months is way too fast and that's what I did.  An article I read said that tapering 2mg K at tolerance is like eating 6000 to 8000 grams of MGS for a few years, now that's scary.

 

I still think the real villain is the excitotoxic glutamate not really the benzo (which harvests the high glutamate levels of coarse)

 

This 'DAMAGE' we feel mostly happens in tolerance so that's suspicious to me.  I know one member that restated with an added updose and left BB and he was claiming 'brain damage fixed'  I asked him how the restate fixed the 'brain damage'.  He could not answer, left BB feeling very good (at least for a while I am guessing) - if you search BB under  'brain damage'  you will find his posts about a year ago.

 

I say NO damage at all, glutamate is the problem and we just have way too much at play in our sculls still, it's that simple.

[[Be...]]

I totally agree with the glutamate excitotoxicity being the problem.  I get concerned about reinforcing neural pathways all the time from my stressful environment, which doesn't allow me to relax.  That's what scares me the most feeling so badly still.  Right now there is so much noise outside I can't even see straight, which keeps reinforcing those neural pathways. 

[[pe...]]

Birdie- does extra glutamate cause depression? How do you get rid of extra glutamate?

 

Peace2

[[...]]

I do not think the benzo is the problem it's really the glutamate.  This is never talked about as we enjoy taking punches at the pill so much.  I recovered 99% but still have killer tinnitus and Ashton says that sxs is long lived.  Before I jumped I took ONE final 2mg xanax pill just for the hell of it. The T went away almost totally and I felt 100% for 3 days.  3 days of total happiness and then diving back into my tinnitus hell again BUT it taught me there is NO damage, only glutamate remains in the benzo's wake.  I also believe more than ever in extra slow 3 to 4 year long super tapers.  Too late for me now but I should have crawled for an extra year in the critical 3 to 1.5 mg range. 6 months is way too fast and that's what I did.  An article I read said that tapering 2mg K at tolerance is like eating 6000 to 8000 grams of MGS for a few years, now that's scary.

 

I still think the real villain is the excitotoxic glutamate not really the benzo (which harvests the high glutamate levels of coarse)

 

I say NO damage at all, glutamate is the problem and we just have way too much at play in our sculls still, it's that simple.

 

This is just your "theory". And, what makes you an expert to to write, "I say NO damage at all"!

[[Bi...]]

Birdie- does extra glutamate cause depression? How do you get rid of extra glutamate?

 

Peace2

 

Hi peace2, Yes it can cause depression, it can caused just about any chemical imbalance to get amplified.

[[Bi...]]

I do not think the benzo is the problem it's really the glutamate.  This is never talked about as we enjoy taking punches at the pill so much.  I recovered 99% but still have killer tinnitus and Ashton says that sxs is long lived.  Before I jumped I took ONE final 2mg xanax pill just for the hell of it. The T went away almost totally and I felt 100% for 3 days.  3 days of total happiness and then diving back into my tinnitus hell again BUT it taught me there is NO damage, only glutamate remains in the benzo's wake.  I also believe more than ever in extra slow 3 to 4 year long super tapers.  Too late for me now but I should have crawled for an extra year in the critical 3 to 1.5 mg range. 6 months is way too fast and that's what I did.  An article I read said that tapering 2mg K at tolerance is like eating 6000 to 8000 grams of MGS for a few years, now that's scary.

 

I still think the real villain is the excitotoxic glutamate not really the benzo (which harvests the high glutamate levels of coarse)

 

I say NO damage at all, glutamate is the problem and we just have way too much at play in our sculls still, it's that simple.

 

This is just your "theory". And, what makes you an expert to to write, "I say NO damage at all"!

 

Hi Eric,  I am so sorry your not feeling good. Here's my experiences. Every time I up dosed things got better, always.  In reinstate the medical staff had me up to 17mg Ativan and at that point it was like "heavens gates" open for my tortured mind. Have you ever taken a dose to see what happens in the last 10 years?  I'm so glad I "played" with my doses a bit before I came off.  I learned much about how this stuff works.  If you did what I did and took 2 mg xanax for just one day,,,,  well all I can say is feeling is believing.  If your feeling bad I'd say it's excess glutamate of some type that has not yet resolved. There are many drugs that  "mop up" glutamate like topomax that my help you.  If I was 10 years out I'd try anything.  Heck I'm only 3 month's out and I have 20 meds on my wish list I want to try.  I mean I hope I just heal and can walk away from all the meds but I'd never stop searching for some relief.

 

I wish you well.

[[...]]

I do not think the benzo is the problem it's really the glutamate.  This is never talked about as we enjoy taking punches at the pill so much.  I recovered 99% but still have killer tinnitus and Ashton says that sxs is long lived.  Before I jumped I took ONE final 2mg xanax pill just for the hell of it. The T went away almost totally and I felt 100% for 3 days.  3 days of total happiness and then diving back into my tinnitus hell again BUT it taught me there is NO damage, only glutamate remains in the benzo's wake.  I also believe more than ever in extra slow 3 to 4 year long super tapers.  Too late for me now but I should have crawled for an extra year in the critical 3 to 1.5 mg range. 6 months is way too fast and that's what I did.  An article I read said that tapering 2mg K at tolerance is like eating 6000 to 8000 grams of MGS for a few years, now that's scary.

 

I still think the real villain is the excitotoxic glutamate not really the benzo (which harvests the high glutamate levels of coarse)

 

I say NO damage at all, glutamate is the problem and we just have way too much at play in our sculls still, it's that simple.

 

This is just your "theory". And, what makes you an expert to to write, "I say NO damage at all"!

 

Hi Eric,  I am so sorry your not feeling good. Here's may experience. Every time I up dosed things got better, always.  In reinstate the medical staff had me up to 17mg Ativan and at that point it was like "heaves gates" open for my tortured mind. Have you ever taken a dose to see what happens in the last 10 years?  I'm so glad I "played" with my doses a bit before I came off.  I learned much about how this stuff works.  If you did what I did and took 2 mg xanax for just one day,,,,  well all I can say is feeling is believing.  If your feeling bad I'd say it's excess glutamate of some type that has not yet resolved. There are many drugs that  "mop up" glutamate like topomax that my help you.  If I was 10 years out I'd try anything.  Heck I'm only 3 month's out and I have 20 meds on my wish list I want to try.  I mean I hope I just heal and can walk away from all the meds but I'd never stop searching for some relief.

 

I wish you well.

 

The problem with protracted withdrawal is down regulated receptors. I can eat msg and it doesn't increase my symptoms or do anything I can feel, I eat it rarely during infrequent episodes of ingesting junk food.

 

I had a colonoscopy last summer and I had midazolam and fentanyl for anesthesia. It put me out and I slept for a day. But, then the next day it was back to my usual level of protracted symptoms.

 

I'm not interested in causing myself more drug induced brain damage. All drugs that affect the brain have the propensity to cause long term brain perturbations, so I have learned my lesson and stay away from any rubbish that can do this to me, again, or worse.

 

Thanks for wishing me well, I wish the same for you.

[[Fl...]]

The problem with protracted withdrawal is down regulated receptors. I can eat msg and it doesn't increase my symptoms or do anything I can feel, I eat it rarely during infrequent episodes of ingesting junk food.

 

My guess is that it isn't as simple as downregulated receptors or excess glutamate or any other one single factor- it would seem to me that these drug wreak havoc on many different systems in the body affecting neurotransmitters, hormones and who knows what else.

 

I'm not interested in causing myself more drug induced brain damage. All drugs that affect the brain have the propensity to cause long term brain perturbations, so I have learned my lesson and stay away from any rubbish that can do this to me, again, or worse.

 

Same here. I understand that folks can be pretty desperate for relief and as another posted eloquently stated awhile back "There is no prize for being drug free", but taking more drugs in a desperate attempt to fix the damage another drug has done is a risk that I am not willing to take.

 

Even if there were studies (which there are not) how can you know that you aren't getting yourself into another mess? If there is anything this experience has taught me it is that you can't take anything for granted when it comes to drugs and can't take everything the medical establishment tells you about pharmaceuticals at face value.

 

I will take my chances going the natural route.

[[Bi...]]

I do not think the benzo is the problem it's really the glutamate.  This is never talked about as we enjoy taking punches at the pill so much.  I recovered 99% but still have killer tinnitus and Ashton says that sxs is long lived.  Before I jumped I took ONE final 2mg xanax pill just for the hell of it. The T went away almost totally and I felt 100% for 3 days.  3 days of total happiness and then diving back into my tinnitus hell again BUT it taught me there is NO damage, only glutamate remains in the benzo's wake.  I also believe more than ever in extra slow 3 to 4 year long super tapers.  Too late for me now but I should have crawled for an extra year in the critical 3 to 1.5 mg range. 6 months is way too fast and that's what I did.  An article I read said that tapering 2mg K at tolerance is like eating 6000 to 8000 grams of MGS for a few years, now that's scary.

 

I still think the real villain is the excitotoxic glutamate not really the benzo (which harvests the high glutamate levels of coarse)

 

I say NO damage at all, glutamate is the problem and we just have way too much at play in our sculls still, it's that simple.

 

This is just your "theory". And, what makes you an expert to to write, "I say NO damage at all"!

 

Hi Eric,  I am so sorry your not feeling good. Here's may experience. Every time I up dosed things got better, always.  In reinstate the medical staff had me up to 17mg Ativan and at that point it was like "heaves gates" open for my tortured mind. Have you ever taken a dose to see what happens in the last 10 years?  I'm so glad I "played" with my doses a bit before I came off.  I learned much about how this stuff works.  If you did what I did and took 2 mg xanax for just one day,,,,  well all I can say is feeling is believing.  If your feeling bad I'd say it's excess glutamate of some type that has not yet resolved. There are many drugs that  "mop up" glutamate like topomax that my help you.  If I was 10 years out I'd try anything.  Heck I'm only 3 month's out and I have 20 meds on my wish list I want to try.  I mean I hope I just heal and can walk away from all the meds but I'd never stop searching for some relief.

 

I wish you well.

 

The problem with protracted withdrawal is down regulated receptors. I can eat msg and it doesn't increase my symptoms or do anything I can feel, I eat it rarely during infrequent episodes of ingesting junk food.

 

I had a colonoscopy last summer and I had midazolam and fentanyl for anesthesia. It put me out and I slept for a day. But, then the next day it was back to my usual level of protracted symptoms.

 

I'm not interested in causing myself more drug induced brain damage. All drugs that affect the brain have the propensity to cause long term brain perturbations, so I have learned my lesson and stay away from any rubbish that can do this to me, again, or worse.

 

Thanks for wishing me well, I wish the same for you.

 

The science of this stuff fascinates me.  It turns out that the two most common things that can up regulate gabaA receptors is eating MSG and drinking coffee.  You can google articles on those topics.

 

Did you try the obvious stuff like taking high-ish doses of PLP everyday? Did you try taking the mineral manganese?  Without manganese gabaA up-regulation is 100% impossible genetically. It's required for gene interruption of gabaA geno.  Very common in people over 50 to have this condition and they are given manganese 100um daily to aid and upregulation happens in like 60 days.

 

Summary statement: “These data suggest that Manganese exposure results in an increase in extracellular GABA concentrations via altered expression of transport and receptor proteins, which may be the basis of the neurological characteristics of manganism.”

 

I other words TOO much Manganese gives you manganism.  A type of poisoning that makes people too sleepy and overly relaxed because of excessive upregulation of GABAA via increases in the isoquinoline-carboxamide binding protein of the benzodiazepine receptor (PTBR)

 

Take too much  Manganese and your gabaA is almost guaranteed to explode in growth even in a bad way (too much). I take 200U a day Manganese and I am 100% healed with the occasional wave and killer Tinnitus which has not gone yet :'(

 

This mineral is very over looked and strongly related to gabaA upregulation!!!

 

 

Manganese is a cofactor for enzymes involved in hydrolysis, phosphorylation, decarboxylation, and transamination. It also promotes activities of transferases such as glycosyltransferase, and of glutamine synthetase and superoxide dismutase. Manganese helps in the production of enzymes used for metabolism of proteins and fat. It supports the immune system, blood sugar balance and is involved in the production of cellular energy, reproduction and bone growth.

 

http://www.acupuncturesf.com/articles/withdrawal-syndromes.html

 

 

'Benzo withdrawal and withdrawal syndromes from SSRIs and SSNRIs have become a widespread problem in our population. The marketing of these anti-anxiety and anti-depressant medications resulted in an apparent belief that the standard differential diagnosis and application of specific treatments to correct the causes of anxiety and depression--------Some nutritional supplements have some effect on GABA but are highly regulated in the body and so mainly affect the GABA system when they are deficient, not when the patient takes in an abundance of the supplement. One of these nutrients is manganese, which has a GABA stimulating effect in its natural form in the body, and is a cofactor for many enzymatic activities, as well as a necessary part of the mitochondria, or oxygen metabolizers, in our central nervous system cells. Manganese is an important constituent of the powerful antioxidant super oxide dismutase (SOD), and the type of SOD with manganese is an important part of our brain cells, protecting the cell from the oxidant superoxide, which is toxic to the cell. Deficiency of manganese-SOD may be a key '

 

I would cover ALL bases.

[[Bi...]]

Low-Level Manganese Exposure Alters Glutamate Metabolism in GABAergic AF5 Cells

 

Recent studies have suggested that the globus pallidus may be a particularly sensitive target of manganese (Mn), however, in vitro studies of the effects of Mn on GABAergic neurons have been restricted by the lack of a cell model expressing GABAergic properties. Here we investigated the effects of low-level Mn treatment on cellular GABA and glutamate metabolism using the newly characterized AF5 rat neural-derived cell line, which displays GABAergic properties during culture in vitro. Intracellular GABA and glutamate levels were measured along with measurement of the release of GABA and glutamate into the culture medium, glutamine uptake from the culture medium, and the specific effects of Mn on the enzymes directly responsible for the synthesis and degradation of GABA, glutamate decarboxylase (GAD) and GABA transaminase (GABA-T). Our results demonstrate that Mn had no effect on the activities of GAD or GABA-T. Similarly, low-level Mn treatment of AF5 cultures had only a small effect on intracellular GABA levels (114% of control) and no effect on the release of GABA. In contrast, intracellular and extracellular glutamate levels were enhanced to 170% and 198% of control during Mn treatment, respectively, while extracellular glutamine decreased to 73% of controls. Together, these results suggest that glutamate homeostasis may be preferentially affected over GABA in AF5 cells during low-level Mn treatment, suggesting a novel mechanism by which Mn-induced excitotoxicity might arise.

 

 

 

ref http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1950338/

[[Bi...]]

Low-Level Manganese Exposure Alters Glutamate Metabolism in GABAergic AF5 Cells

 

Recent studies have suggested that the globus pallidus may be a particularly sensitive target of manganese (Mn), however, in vitro studies of the effects of Mn on GABAergic neurons have been restricted by the lack of a cell model expressing GABAergic properties. Here we investigated the effects of low-level Mn treatment on cellular GABA and glutamate metabolism using the newly characterized AF5 rat neural-derived cell line, which displays GABAergic properties during culture in vitro. Intracellular GABA and glutamate levels were measured along with measurement of the release of GABA and glutamate into the culture medium, glutamine uptake from the culture medium, and the specific effects of Mn on the enzymes directly responsible for the synthesis and degradation of GABA, glutamate decarboxylase (GAD) and GABA transaminase (GABA-T). Our results demonstrate that Mn had no effect on the activities of GAD or GABA-T. Similarly, low-level Mn treatment of AF5 cultures had only a small effect on intracellular GABA levels (114% of control) and no effect on the release of GABA. In contrast, intracellular and extracellular glutamate levels were enhanced to 170% and 198% of control during Mn treatment, respectively, while extracellular glutamine decreased to 73% of controls. Together, these results suggest that glutamate homeostasis may be preferentially affected over GABA in AF5 cells during low-level Mn treatment, suggesting a novel mechanism by which Mn-induced excitotoxicity might arise.

 

 

 

ref http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1950338/

 

 

 

 

 

 

manganese neurotoxicity is bad as it upregulates benzodiazepine receptors? This is odd, thought that was a good thing??  60% in 4 days?  105% isoquinoline-carboxamide up in 4 days???  I took MN for a short while but after 50 tabs ran out.  Time to start up again on the Manganese Chelate 15mg tabs for me again, keep forgetting, cog-fog .

 

Upregulation of 'peripheral-type' benzodiazepine receptors in the globus pallidus in a sub-acute rat model of manganese neurotoxicity.

 

http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/12946575/Upregulation-of-peripheral-type-benzodiazepine-receptors-in-the-globus-pallidus-in-a-sub-acute-rat-m

 

AND

 

http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/12946575/Upregulation-of-peripheral-type-benzodiazepine-receptors-in-the-globus-pallidus-in-a-sub-acute-rat-m

 

 

Manganese neurotoxicity (MN) is a neurological disorder characterized by selective neuronal loss in the globus pallidus together with characteristic morphological changes known as Alzheimer type II astrocytosis. In order to understand the underlying mechanisms responsible for these processes, we studied early effects of this metal in a sub-acute rat model. Levels of manganese in the globus pallidus were increased by 81% after 1 day of treatment and elevated by 551% compared to controls after 4 days. In addition, manganese treatment led to a 60% increase in ptbr expression, and a 105% increase in levels of its product, the isoquinoline-carboxamide binding protein, a major constituent of the 'peripheral-type' benzodiazepine receptor (PTBR) that is localized to astrocytes, in this brain region after 4 days. These results indicate that PTBRs, and possibly neurosteroids, are an early response to manganese exposure and may play a major role in the pathophysiology of MN.