Help - Need Plan For 0.5mg Ativan Titration

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I was just wondering if you can get a good clear look at the liquid.  I think if there is any type of separation you would be able to visually see it - solids sitting on the bottom, lines of separation between liquid layers.  Any type of non-uniformity.

[[Gr...]]

I was just wondering if you can get a good clear look at the liquid.  I think if there is any type of separation you would be able to visually see it - solids sitting on the bottom, lines of separation between liquid layers.  Any type of non-uniformity.

 

Oh. No there's nothing like that going on. It's clear as glass. It must just be the fact that the liquid takes some time to adjust to. There's no way it can be exactly the same as the tablet. I seem better today. I'll hold tomorrow too and then begin the slow taper again.

[[Gr...]]

I just have a question about daily tapering in general. I know when you cut and hold you wait and symptoms show up x amount of days later. But with daily are you basically experiencing symptoms every day and just trying to keep them at a minimum? Thanks and sorry if that's a stupid question.

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Not at all stupid. It can be confusing if you've never done it.

 

I'd say the Golden Rule of daily taper is never let symptoms increase.  Most people come into a daily taper already symptomatic and symptoms fade with the taper or at worst stay the same.  If you come into a taper symptom free the goal would be stay symptom free or very light.  Stay feeling well.

[[Ki...]]

Green - have you posted that question on the daily titration board?

[[Gr...]]

Not at all stupid. It can be confusing if you've never done it.

 

I'd say the Golden Rule of daily taper is never let symptoms increase.  Most people come into a daily taper already symptomatic and symptoms fade with the taper or at worst stay the same.  If you come into a taper symptom free the goal would be stay symptom free or very light.  Stay feeling well.

 

Well I'm just starting my taper so I'm not really going into this with many symptoms. But I start to feel them fairly quickly. Like maybe the next day. Nothing crazy so far. Some anxiety (this includes my hands feeling nervous). A bit of a neck/headache. That's about it. And it comes and goes for the most part. As for a taper being symptom free I think that's an urban myth

[[Gr...]]

Green - have you posted that question on the daily titration board?

 

Not as of yet Kiddo.

[[Ki...]]

You'll likely get a bigger set of responses if you check in there.... 

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Well I'm just starting my taper so I'm not really going into this with many symptoms. But I start to feel them fairly quickly. Like maybe the next day. Nothing crazy so far. Some anxiety (this includes my hands feeling nervous). A bit of a neck/headache. That's about it. And it comes and goes for the most part. As for a taper being symptom free I think that's an urban myth

 

Absolutely positively symptom free and normal.  Maybe.  I think it can be done, but no one on earth has the patience not to push the envelop.  I certainly didn't and lack of patience is the reason I am not yet well.

 

But there are many here who are feeling very good and living largely normal lives that will not remember these years as The Lost Years.  They are mostly well, working, and living.  This should be the rule not the exception.  Patience is the problem.

[[Gr...]]

Well I'm just starting my taper so I'm not really going into this with many symptoms. But I start to feel them fairly quickly. Like maybe the next day. Nothing crazy so far. Some anxiety (this includes my hands feeling nervous). A bit of a neck/headache. That's about it. And it comes and goes for the most part. As for a taper being symptom free I think that's an urban myth

 

Absolutely positively symptom free and normal.  Maybe.  I think it can be done, but no one on earth has the patience not to push the envelop.  I certainly didn't and lack of patience is the reason I am not yet well.

 

But there are many here who are feeling very good and living largely normal lives that will not remember these years as The Lost Years.  They are mostly well, working, and living.  This should be the rule not the exception.  Patience is the problem.

 

Your taper didn't show patience? Damn how slow does one have to go then? I'm hoping from 0.5mg to 0 isn't going to take years. That I couldn't handle.

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My taper started at 4mg K, which is like 8mg ativan.  And I did cut and hold most of the way as I simply didn't know about daily taper.  It was a long hard road and I simply lost patience at the end.  I got into a situation where I needed to updose and I could not bring myself to do it.  Decided to push through.  Big mistake.

 

I don't think you will take years.  I'd roughly expect six months to a year, just guessing.  .05 - .1mg per month is common in the low dose range.  Whatever it takes, don't push through.  It is false economy.  You will get to zero, but you will not feel better any sooner.

[[Gr...]]

My taper started at 4mg K, which is like 8mg ativan.  And I did cut and hold most of the way as I simply didn't know about daily taper.  It was a long hard road and I simply lost patience at the end.  I got into a situation where I needed to updose and I could not bring myself to do it.  Decided to push through.  Big mistake.

 

I don't think you will take years.  I'd roughly expect six months to a year, just guessing.  .05 - .1mg per month is common in the low dose range.  Whatever it takes, don't push through.  It is false economy.  You will get to zero, but you will not feel better any sooner.

 

I could maybe live with six months but not a year. I guess everyone is different. I'll have to wait and see what kind I am.

[[La...]]

Green:

 

I took 3.5 months to drop 0.5mg ativan using compounded liquid. For me, the sx-free taper was elusive. Irrespective of how slow I went or how long I held. However, it is very reasonable to think that slower tapers will have less severe sxs.

 

I started with a 15% weekly (every 8 days) cut schedule and adjusted downward as necessary. It was a hell of epic proportions, but I am doing quite well (though not 100% healed) at nearly 5 months off. Good luck.

[[Gr...]]

Green:

 

I took 3.5 months to drop 0.5mg ativan using compounded liquid. For me, the sx-free taper was elusive. Irrespective of how slow I went or how long I held. However, it is very reasonable to think that slower tapers will have less severe sxs.

 

I started with a 15% weekly (every 8 days) cut schedule and adjusted downward as necessary. It was a hell of epic proportions, but I am doing quite well (though not 100% healed) at nearly 5 months off. Good luck.

 

15% weekly??? Wow I don't know how you did it. If I didn't have to work I might (but probably not) try it.

[[La...]]

I worked (as a preclinical pharmacologist) through my whole taper. The irony.

[[Gr...]]

I worked (as a preclinical pharmacologist) through my whole taper. The irony.

 

Is there a big S on your chest or something? 

[[La...]]

No S  . But as I have said in other threads, kids still need to get fed, clothed, and housed so no real choice for me to take off work during tapering, as not working would have quickly catapulted us into poverty, homelessness, etc.

 

But I was exercising a lot during WD so I was comfortable with the idea of pushing myself hard while suffering through wd. While mountain biking big peaks, I couldnt just say, "oh, i cant handle this, its too much, I'm going to bed." I had no choice but to negotiate the technical descent in order to get safely home before dark. A striking parallel can be made dealing with my job during wd.

 

You dont want to go too slow or too fast in your taper. Find the sweet spot.

[[Gr...]]

But trying to find that sweet spot is what sucks. I'm starting to also think there's no such thing as a symptom free taper. So up until Tuesday I was stable and fine at 0.494mg. Then I did .002mg drops Wed, Thurs, Fri (today) to get to 0.488mg and I feel like crap. Waves of anxiety, stomach issues, muscle pain, head/neck ache. I was figuring at those small drops I would barely feel it. And the plan was to do that for 5 days and then hold for 2. I'm already thinking of holding tomorrow. I'd almost rather do a 2 or 3% cut and then suffer for a couple days but then stabilize back. This daily shit seems like you're never stable. Might just be me and because I'm just starting and don't know any better. Such a wicked game this benzo w/d.

[[Ki...]]

You'll find your way, buddy! And of course the cut and hold may be an option for you if you choose to go that route. Give it a couple more weeks maybe and see how you fare 

[[Gr...]]

Just to update I did 4 days of cuts (.002mg) and then holding for 3 days with today (Mon) being the second hold day. It was the worst day. Up until around 7pm anyway. After that it was fine. So I'm going to do another 4 & 3 at the same rate and then if it's ok I'll bump it up to .003 for the next round. There's no right way to daily taper is there? You don't actually have to cut "daily". Although if I could I probably would.

[[La...]]

Just to update I did 4 days of cuts (.002mg) and then holding for 3 days with today (Mon) being the second hold day. It was the worst day. Up until around 7pm anyway. After that it was fine. So I'm going to do another 4 & 3 at the same rate and then if it's ok I'll bump it up to .003 for the next round. There's no right way to daily taper is there? You don't actually have to cut "daily". Although if I could I probably would.

 

No, you dont need to cut daily. Just need to get the dose lower by any tolerable means. If your hybrid approach works, go with it.  Experimenting a bit will help you to know if you are going too slow or too fast.

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Just to update I did 4 days of cuts (.002mg) and then holding for 3 days with today (Mon) being the second hold day. It was the worst day. Up until around 7pm anyway. After that it was fine. So I'm going to do another 4 & 3 at the same rate and then if it's ok I'll bump it up to .003 for the next round. There's no right way to daily taper is there? You don't actually have to cut "daily". Although if I could I probably would.

 

I think your problems stem from the crossover to liquid.  But here is what I would do.  You cut .002mg for four days then hold three, right?  So you progress .008mg in seven days.  That's .00114mg per day.  Why not cut this amount each day for seven days and see what happens?

 

It may be you need to cut smaller.  At least to start.  You may be a slow healer or you may still be recovering from the crossover.  Try very slow for a while and see what happens.

[[Gr...]]

Thanks guys. So what would be the benefit of doing smaller daily cuts that equal the same? Also isn't the trend the lower you go the smaller the cuts become? Wouldn't raising it in the future be bad? Again if I didn't have to work I would try bigger cuts and deal with them. But I must work. I've got 3 weeks off coming up so I should do some experimenting then.

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Think about what is happening.  With a bigger cut you remove drug from your body that could have stayed there to help cover symptoms and been removed later when your body was ready to deal with the shortage.

 

Find a daily cut that works.  THEN you can probe to see if higher cuts will work or not, but I would first find a daily cut that works.

 

I'm still not sure what is going on with you.  You may still be dealing with the shortage that we think happened when you switched to liquid.  One thing that bothers me to this point is we don't really have enough history to know what is happening.  Basing decisions on a day or two of symptoms is tricky because benzos don't behave that cleanly and simply.

 

I've noticed some of the Valium folks have adopted a "three day rule" meaning if symptoms increase for three consecutive days then accept the increase as real and make a correction, otherwise continue on.  To me this seems a good way to help the decision process.

[[Gr...]]

Think about what is happening.  With a bigger cut you remove drug from your body that could have stayed there to help cover symptoms and been removed later when your body was ready to deal with the shortage.

 

Find a daily cut that works.  THEN you can probe to see if higher cuts will work or not, but I would first find a daily cut that works.

 

I'm still not sure what is going on with you.  You may still be dealing with the shortage that we think happened when you switched to liquid.  One thing that bothers me to this point is we don't really have enough history to know what is happening.  Basing decisions on a day or two of symptoms is tricky because benzos don't behave that cleanly and simply.

 

I've noticed some of the Valium folks have adopted a "three day rule" meaning if symptoms increase for three consecutive days then accept the increase as real and make a correction, otherwise continue on.  To me this seems a good way to help the decision process.

 

I see what you're saying. Might have to try smaller cuts. Today is much better. Pretty much no symptoms. I don't want to make the cuts so small that it ends up taking forever  . But whatever works right? I think the switch to liquid must be good by now. There are times where I feel great. Like yesterday before my evening dose I almost felt normal. So I know there's no interdose going on. Just 3 doses exactly 8 hours apart.

 

Again I want to thank you guys so much for the effort and support in helping me. Especially Kiddo, Juliea, SG57 and Laser. I'd seriously be lost without you.