Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[...]]

What exactly is wrong with taking flourouquinolones while tapering? I read that on here and relayed the info to my pdoc and he just looked at me like I had no idea what I was talking about.  In truth, I didn't. In fairness to him, he is the one who turned me on to the Ashton taper.

 

Thanks,

Ed

 

This is a legitimate concern that your doc really should be aware of.  Quinolones act at the GABA-a receptor and I think they have a blocking action that can throw you into a CT-like withdrawal.  It's called being floxed and is something you want to avoid.

 

http://floxiehope.com/tag/effects-of-fluoroquinolones-on-gaba-neurotransmitters/

[[Va...]]

What exactly is wrong with taking flourouquinolones while tapering? I read that on here and relayed the info to my pdoc and he just looked at me like I had no idea what I was talking about.  In truth, I didn't. In fairness to him, he is the one who turned me on to the Ashton taper.

 

Thanks,

Ed

I wouldn't take one ever again even when not tapering. One dose of Ciproflaxin messed me up real good for a long time. Come to find out it was the culprit behind gulf war syndrome. Theyre bad news.

[[bu...]]

What exactly is wrong with taking flourouquinolones while tapering? I read that on here and relayed the info to my pdoc and he just looked at me like I had no idea what I was talking about.  In truth, I didn't. In fairness to him, he is the one who turned me on to the Ashton taper.

 

Thanks,

Ed

 

Quinolones will displace the benzo molecules at the receptor site, blocking the benzo.  The result is effectively a CT.  While I was on diazepam, my doc posted "allergic to Cipro" on my records.

[[ed...]]

What exactly is wrong with taking flourouquinolones while tapering? I read that on here and relayed the info to my pdoc and he just looked at me like I had no idea what I was talking about.  In truth, I didn't. In fairness to him, he is the one who turned me on to the Ashton taper.

 

Thanks,

Ed

 

Quinolones will displace the benzo molecules at the receptor site, blocking the benzo.  The result is effectively a CT.  While I was on diazepam, my doc posted "allergic to Cipro" on my records.

 

I always wondered why I got absolutely DEVASTATED by a 30 day Cipro course while I was on Ativan. Here I thought it was that I WAS actually allergic to Cipro.  Agony doesn't begin to describe that month.

[[Su...]]

  Not sure if I took my dose an hour ago.  Not sure what to do.  Well my thinking is now I'll wait for next dose in 7 hours.  I've only had about 3 days of grace on this last cut.  Can't believe that.  Just darn concentration, memory etc.  Oh well fingers crossed again!  I'm sure  others have been in this boat. 

[[bu...]]

When in doubt, ALWAYS take the uncertain dose.  A one-off updose will not cause any problem, but a missed dose can cause significant discomfort.  Never skip a dose!

 

There were times during my taper I missed a whole day's dose (or thought I did) and I just doubled up the next day.  I never had any problems.

[[Ho...]]

  Not sure if I took my dose an hour ago.  Not sure what to do.  Well my thinking is now I'll wait for next dose in 7 hours.  I've only had about 3 days of grace on this last cut.  Can't believe that.  Just darn concentration, memory etc.  Oh well fingers crossed again!  I'm sure  others have been in this boat.

 

This happened to me 2 weeks ago.  What a freak out I had.  I agree with builder, just take the dose.  That's what I did and everything was OK.  I now have everything in a pill sorter so I cannot forget!  I'm pretty sure I hadn't taken my dose because I was starting to feel bad and didn't feel any different than normal after taking the dose.

[[ed...]]

Ditto on the pill sorter!  There have been a number of times where I thought I did or didn't take a certain dose--the sorter took away all that uncertainty.  Even if it did leave me scratching my head.

[[Mo...]]

Agreeing , too! Always take a missed dose, even when it's a day after.

[[Ju...]]

I have recently read that the tablets containing valerian root, hops, chamomile, skullcap, passionflower and ziziphus that I've been taking every night for sleep are really bad and should be avoided because they contribute to down regulation of gaba receptors which are trying to heal. Yikes... they were my safety net. But now I've switched to cherry tablets. And I just take the passionflower/skullcap homeopathic drops on a really bad day when I'm losing the plot. Any thoughts?

 

And secondly, does anyone get really bad reflux at night as part of benzo withdrawl?

 

Thanks for your help answering these questions

[[Ju...]]

Also, today I got down to 4mg from 30mg valium!! Still got months and months to go but I'm trying to celebrate the small achievements. And trying to not be terrified of the scary stories about how hard it is when you reach 2mg and under...

 

Thank you to benzo buddies again for teaching me to micro taper because I honestly think I would have not gotten this far yet with dry cuts since I was really struggling with such big sudden reductions.

 

I still feel slightly naughty for lying to my doctor and pharmacist about how low I am dosing (they're prescribing me 5mg daily as of today) BUT they're also not budging on their policy of reducing half a mg every four weeks no matter what... right down to the last half a mg... and I don't feel safe doing such big reductions when I get to those low doses under 3mg, that's way more than the recommended 10% reduction isn't it?

 

So...I'm being really "bad" and stockpiling whatever is left in the bottle each week so I can go super super slow if needed when I get to those lower doses. Because micro tapering is working so well for me. Still feeling the yucky symptoms here and there and they're bad but bearable, and I'm functional enough most days which is more than I can say for before when I was doing overnight reductions of 1/4 to 1/2 a tablet.

 

And also thanks to advice on benzo buddies I chose not to take the antidepressants or sleeping pills that a psychiatrist wanted to offer me "to help with the taper". I really don't want another drug to taper off. One is hard enough.

 

[[Ho...]]

I have recently read that the tablets containing valerian root, hops, chamomile, skullcap, passionflower and ziziphus that I've been taking every night for sleep are really bad and should be avoided because they contribute to down regulation of gaba receptors which are trying to heal. Yikes... they were my safety net. But now I've switched to cherry tablets. And I just take the passionflower/skullcap homeopathic drops on a really bad day when I'm losing the plot. Any thoughts?

 

And secondly, does anyone get really bad reflux at night as part of benzo withdrawl?

 

Thanks for your help answering these questions

 

I have had bad reflux both day and night since starting Xanax and continuing into my crossover and taper. I tried all the usual measures, avoid acidic and spicy foods, small frequent meals, don't eat several hours before lying down, and elevated the head of the bed. Tried antacids and also Zantac but it wasn't enough. Saw a GI doc and he put me on Protonix, which is a proton pump inhibitor. This has helped immensely. You have to be careful with the PPIs, some interact badly with Valium. I checked with my pharmacist and Protonix has the lowest interaction. I plan to stay on it until I am off and healed. You may be able to get away without it since you are just having it at night. I know Maya who is on this board sometimes also has bad stomach problems. Hope this helps.

[Guest [ch...]]

JustDoToday, sounds like you're doing really well. Congratulations! I do a similar thing with my psychiatrist, by the way. Following Ashton's schedule 2, she wanted me to do a linear taper off Valium that goes 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, holding each dose for 1-2 weeks. My previous taper experience told me I needed to go much slower at the end. So I went much *faster* at the beginning without telling her, stockpiling the extra Valium to support a slower taper at the end. Ah, the deceptions we need to do...

 

Take care,

 

Chessplayer

[[Su...]]

read chess players comments.  Had to laugh can so relatexas my doc found Ashton manual difficult so has his own lol somi did what you have fast at first have extra to slow down now.  Dr appt on 15th.  Have to go in there and try and get what really will need.  He will I hope because I know he realizes he has got himself and I in this mess and hechas to get out of it.. ..other drs that have filled in for him donot agree with what he has done.  I've told him that. 

 

The camomile tea I've been drinking gee I hope that's not an issue.

 

At 13 days holding not happy with yesterday now today a challenge.  Hmmm.  Thought things had levelled out for a few days.  Not a chance.  What's this about??  I'm afraid to taper.  It's either lock the door and go for it or continue holding what a rut!!!

 

Have good day or the best you can everyone.  Dolly

[[Gr...]]

Hello friends,

 

It's been awhile since I was on this site since I try to take my mind off of my taper as much as possible but tend to check in when I hit a rough patch. If I'm not reducing by more than 7% every two weeks, I have few symptoms if any. I got ahead of myself the past four weeks and had to hold for a week given that I couldn't fall asleep unless I took a Benadryl.

 

For those of you familiar with tapering at the lower doses, I was wondering if you can let me know if you still need to keep the two-week reductions at lower than 10% even when you get to 1.35 mg and lower. A 5-7% reduction rate every two weeks seems to work well for me. More than that and I get severe tinnitus, leg tingling, anxiety, insomnia, etc. For now I'm planning to keep up with the 5-7% reduction rate unless it's not necessary at a certain range.

 

The Ashton Manual seems completely contrary to my experience. It shows that with a slow taper I would be done in about two to three weeks. With my current plan it looks like it will be more like four more months of tapering, assuming I can jump at .5. Somewhere I saw in the Ashton Manual not to reduce more than 10% every two weeks. Other online sources have said the same thing. From my own experience I have to completely agree that even over 7% reduction can cause symptoms.

 

Any suggestions for the final months ahead would be greatly appreciated.

[Guest [ch...]]

Saying "X% cut" is ambiguous since it's not clear if it's a percent of original dose or percent of current dose.

 

Ashton schedule 2 shows a taper from 10mg Valium with a linear sequence 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, which is cutting 10% of original dose all the way down. That is definitely too fast at the end. I'm not really sure why the standard intro on this forum says Ashton is the definitive guide, but then everybody advises not to taper as fast as Ashton specifies. I guess we're waiting for someone to write a more definitive guide.

 

On the other hand, cutting 10% of current dose each time (or 7% of current dose, or any % of current dose) will never reach zero, so that doesn't quite work either as a guideline.

 

Therefore I prefer to specify a taper plan in terms of the sequence of planned doses. My plan is to follow a sequence of cuts from 10mg Valium that go: 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4.5, 4, 3.5, 3.25, 3, 2.8, 2.6, 2.4, 2.2, 2, 1.9, 1.8, 1.7, 1.6, 1.5, 1.4, 1.3, 1.2, 1.1, 1, .9, .8, .7, .6, .5, .4, .3, .2, .1, 0. I'm currently at the 2.4mg/day step. I'll write my own manual someday and call it "The Chessplayer Manual"

 

Another approach favored by many is the daily microtaper. E.g. cut .01mg every *day*. That seems good if you have the technology to measure doses that accurately. I dissolve my pills and measure out doses with ordinary kitchen measuring cups I got at Walmart, which aren't that accurate. With more accurate measuring apparatus, which I'm thinking of ordering, I could do a daily MT. That's probably the smoothest and best way.

 

Take care,

 

Chessplayer

[[He...]]

Hi everyone,

I could really use some support. Have moved to CA and been here 1 year. Am on my second medical system and hitting a wall. No I have not tried to cut since 2013 due to all these changes. I have no social support and a lot of challenges. I am in tolerance w/d to some degree every day. Few docs I've met are even familiar with Ashton at all. Anyway. I'm "ready" to start microtapering because I don't see anything in my life getting better and I hope to be able to manage. I work p/t and MUST be able to continue working. OK to get out for that but have a hard time managing much else and it's getting worse. Extreme loneliness.

 

My current problem is that I don't have a doc who will Rx my V at all. My primary care doc refuses, the "pain management" center attached to my provider does not prescribe benzos at all (good for them, excellent but what about all the people like us?) I did see a psychiatric nurse practisioner who referred me to the rehab attached to the center (great rehab but no real knowledge of benzo protracted w/d, anyway they won't take my Obamacare insurance). The psych nurse said, "If I did put you on a taper I would put you on Klonapin". (And she has no knowledge of Ashton, obviously, or willingness to do a microtaper). Auggh. Anyway I have a call in for her (I saw the other pain guy last week, no help there except he'll keep me on Norco for now)...and with luck some pt and other modalities. Have never found any kind of a support group here (I work evenings). So scared. I think I can do the micro taper with BB guidance. But now I'm worried about the V. Am 5 days away from running out. I feel myself caring less and less about everything. Anyone?

[[Ju...]]

I have recently read that the tablets containing valerian root, hops, chamomile, skullcap, passionflower and ziziphus that I've been taking every night for sleep are really bad and should be avoided because they contribute to down regulation of gaba receptors which are trying to heal. Yikes... they were my safety net. But now I've switched to cherry tablets. And I just take the passionflower/skullcap homeopathic drops on a really bad day when I'm losing the plot. Any thoughts?

 

And secondly, does anyone get really bad reflux at night as part of benzo withdrawl?

 

Thanks for your help answering these questions

 

I have had bad reflux both day and night since starting Xanax and continuing into my crossover and taper. I tried all the usual measures, avoid acidic and spicy foods, small frequent meals, don't eat several hours before lying down, and elevated the head of the bed. Tried antacids and also Zantac but it wasn't enough. Saw a GI doc and he put me on Protonix, which is a proton pump inhibitor. This has helped immensely. You have to be careful with the PPIs, some interact badly with Valium. I checked with my pharmacist and Protonix has the lowest interaction. I plan to stay on it until I am off and healed. You may be able to get away without it since you are just having it at night. I know Maya who is on this board sometimes also has bad stomach problems. Hope this helps.

 

Thanks Hope76

[[Ju...]]

Saying "X% cut" is ambiguous since it's not clear if it's a percent of original dose or percent of current dose.

 

Ashton schedule 2 shows a taper from 10mg Valium with a linear sequence 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, which is cutting 10% of original dose all the way down. That is definitely too fast at the end. I'm not really sure why the standard intro on this forum says Ashton is the definitive guide, but then everybody advises not to taper as fast as Ashton specifies. I guess we're waiting for someone to write a more definitive guide.

 

On the other hand, cutting 10% of current dose each time (or 7% of current dose, or any % of current dose) will never reach zero, so that doesn't quite work either as a guideline.

 

Therefore I prefer to specify a taper plan in terms of the sequence of planned doses. My plan is to follow a sequence of cuts from 10mg Valium that go: 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4.5, 4, 3.5, 3.25, 3, 2.8, 2.6, 2.4, 2.2, 2, 1.9, 1.8, 1.7, 1.6, 1.5, 1.4, 1.3, 1.2, 1.1, 1, .9, .8, .7, .6, .5, .4, .3, .2, .1, 0. I'm currently at the 2.4mg/day step. I'll write my own manual someday and call it "The Chessplayer Manual"

 

Another approach favored by many is the daily microtaper. E.g. cut .01mg every *day*. That seems good if you have the technology to measure doses that accurately. I dissolve my pills and measure out doses with ordinary kitchen measuring cups I got at Walmart, which aren't that accurate. With more accurate measuring apparatus, which I'm thinking of ordering, I could do a daily MT. That's probably the smoothest and best way.

 

Take care,

 

Chessplayer

 

Yes, the "chessplayer" manual would be a great name for it too..very fitting...we sit on one side of the board and out-maneuver the doctor and their pills by moving them around and gradually eliminating them and staying one step ahead of the doctor :-)

[[Ju...]]

Hi everyone,

I could really use some support. Have moved to CA and been here 1 year. Am on my second medical system and hitting a wall. No I have not tried to cut since 2013 due to all these changes. I have no social support and a lot of challenges. I am in tolerance w/d to some degree every day. Few docs I've met are even familiar with Ashton at all. Anyway. I'm "ready" to start microtapering because I don't see anything in my life getting better and I hope to be able to manage. I work p/t and MUST be able to continue working. OK to get out for that but have a hard time managing much else and it's getting worse. Extreme loneliness.

 

My current problem is that I don't have a doc who will Rx my V at all. My primary care doc refuses, the "pain management" center attached to my provider does not prescribe benzos at all (good for them, excellent but what about all the people like us?) I did see a psychiatric nurse practisioner who referred me to the rehab attached to the center (great rehab but no real knowledge of benzo protracted w/d, anyway they won't take my Obamacare insurance). The psych nurse said, "If I did put you on a taper I would put you on Klonapin". (And she has no knowledge of Ashton, obviously, or willingness to do a microtaper). Auggh. Anyway I have a call in for her (I saw the other pain guy last week, no help there except he'll keep me on Norco for now)...and with luck some pt and other modalities. Have never found any kind of a support group here (I work evenings). So scared. I think I can do the micro taper with BB guidance. But now I'm worried about the V. Am 5 days away from running out. I feel myself caring less and less about everything. Anyone?

 

Oh honey, I remember when my doctor told me this too!!! Many of them see Valium as the really really addictive pill because it has quite a reputation in the media but they ironically think stronger benzos like klonopin are "safer" which is not true at all (based on opinion and experience)

 

So many of us have had this same experience as you, especially when it comes to the insurance issue too. And I know you're scared, I hear you. You're so brave and you're doing really well reaching out to seek advice on this site. You're not alone, you've just hit a bump and we're going to get you through this.

 

Please please find a way to hold on tight and keep talking to the benzo buddies here.... I am now successfully doing the micro taper with BB guidance and it's much safer and smoother than what my initial doctors suggested.

 

Secondly, I had to hunt high and low but found a new doctor ASAP who would prescribe valium for a safer taper. It's 100% worth the effort to do this because going back on klonopin is SO much harder than having to find a new doctor. There are always options, and they're worth tracking down because this is your health we're talking about.

 

Doctors seem to be much more responsive when we start with "safely slowly taper OFF valium" rather than "i need a valium prescription" because (in my country at least) they have to legally refuse valium to someone who sounds addicted. It sucks, it's very twisted. But there WILL be a doctor who will listen. I found six who didn't and two who did. Hunt down a "yes" doctor because safe tapering is very important as you already know.

 

And keep writing your thoughts online here...I don't want you to feel alone even though I know how scary this is for you. We've all been there. Hold tight. Good luck

[Guest [ch...]]

Gosh, if I had a milligram of Valium for every person who posts that they can't find a prescribing doctor for their Valium, I'd be rich in Valium...

 

Best is to keep hunting for a doctor. The only alternatives are black market (not recommended: you don't really know what you're getting), or travelling to a country where you can get it over the counter and bringing it back. Or I suppose if you're a chemistry wizard a la Walter White (Breaking Bad), make it yourself!? For most people, these alternatives are not feasible. So we're at the mercy of doctors. Sigh.

 

[[Ja...]]

In California you might need to pay out of pocket but you can try Justine Dembo MD or Matt Torrington MD or Joseph Keene MD at Cedars Sinai.

None of these guys take insurance.

Lastly, Jeffrey becker md.

Other options not sure in Obama care I know these people are private practice doctors.

Lastly Josh Lichtmann at Refuge Recovery. None of these docs will have an issue prescribing but you will have to pay out of pocket initially and can submit to your insurance for benefits and probably not need to see them more than once every 6 mos or so.. Good luck

[[Gr...]]

Hi everyone,

I could really use some support. Have moved to CA and been here 1 year. Am on my second medical system and hitting a wall. No I have not tried to cut since 2013 due to all these changes. I have no social support and a lot of challenges. I am in tolerance w/d to some degree every day. Few docs I've met are even familiar with Ashton at all. Anyway. I'm "ready" to start microtapering because I don't see anything in my life getting better and I hope to be able to manage. I work p/t and MUST be able to continue working. OK to get out for that but have a hard time managing much else and it's getting worse. Extreme loneliness.

 

My current problem is that I don't have a doc who will Rx my V at all. My primary care doc refuses, the "pain management" center attached to my provider does not prescribe benzos at all (good for them, excellent but what about all the people like us?) I did see a psychiatric nurse practisioner who referred me to the rehab attached to the center (great rehab but no real knowledge of benzo protracted w/d, anyway they won't take my Obamacare insurance). The psych nurse said, "If I did put you on a taper I would put you on Klonapin". (And she has no knowledge of Ashton, obviously, or willingness to do a microtaper). Auggh. Anyway I have a call in for her (I saw the other pain guy last week, no help there except he'll keep me on Norco for now)...and with luck some pt and other modalities. Have never found any kind of a support group here (I work evenings). So scared. I think I can do the micro taper with BB guidance. But now I'm worried about the V. Am 5 days away from running out. I feel myself caring less and less about everything. Anyone?

 

First, thank you Chessplayer for your ideas on the taper schedule. I think that I'm going to stick with what I'm doing, which is a daily micro taper. I adjusted my spreadsheet to account for no more than a 5-7% reduction over a two week period. So, I'm at 1.35 now and will continue to listen to my symptoms and ride this down slowly.

 

Healingme, I know how lonely this situation (or life in general for that matter) can be. In case this helps, I wanted to let you know some of the things I've found helpful for dealing with loneliness. I recently signed up for Toastmasters and enjoy that a lot, and then I also go to the gym for my health and human interaction. Your local community center might have clubs or classes to help you get your mind off of the symptoms and help with getting out.

 

As far as finding a doctor who will prescribe Valium for the taper, you may want to talk with a psychiatrist. Not to dish on psychiatrists, but I have found them to be the most liberal about prescribing these benzos. I'm astonished at how casual they are about prescribing them. The other doctors and family physicians seem much more cautious (good for them), but the psychiatrists from my experience are usually the ones who get people into the Benzo mess to begin with. I was able to find a doctor who is a family physician and knew me from treating my kids over the years. He was in the same practice with the doctor who suggested I stop Valium cold-turkey after using it for several years for insomnia. He could see my records that I had ended up in the hospital for stroke-like symptoms that were unexplainable until about five days later when I was surfing the Internet for what could have happened to me. When I told him what I found out about the effects of a cold turkey withdraw and what Benzos do and why a slow taper is necessary, he was willing to learn about this. Using my smart phone, I shared with him at my appointments the spreadsheet (see the link on my profile) and a couple of websites on Benzo tapering.  He agreed that I needed to taper but also acknowledged that this was all news to him. He even wrote down the Benzo Buddies and Ashton Manual websites to share with a relative who was wanting to get off of Klonapin. Thankfully he has trusted me and I've come in about once every two months and show him my progress and get the needed prescription.

 

I think that in California you should be able to find a psychiatrist who will be wiling to support you with a slow taper. My husband is also tapering and a psychiatrist (who also had no clue about tapering) is prescribing him what he needs. We live on the East Coast and I imagine the doctors here are pretty similar to those in California. We've lived on the West Coast, Midwest and East Coast, and all the doctors seem about the same in their willingness to prescribe the Benzos and their complete ignorance in tolerance and tapering.

 

I hope that helps and please know you're not alone. You've got a support group here and thankfully we have others who are on this this journey with us.

 

 

[[Ju...]]

Grace2000, I wish we could gather all the doctors and psychiatrists and have them listen to what you just wrote! I'm so happy that at least one doctor is willing to listen and be educated, go YOU!!!!! That's awesome!!!!  As for the other doctors... oh dear. How can they study medicine for so long and not know about the biggest pharmaceutical epidemic in the world? Anyway, thank you so much for helping one of them to learn about all this, thank you!

[[sq...]]

Hello group-another charter member of the V club wanting to join in on the conversation.  Stuck at 4mg for a long time, but needed to release the stress of work (retired now), a lot of emotional baggage (a work in progress) and get the estrogen levels right.  And how could I forget also dismissing the last doctor who really didn't understand how to treat benzo weaning other than with large cuts or inpatient phenobarb?!!  Looking forward to hearing your wisdom and advice.  Holding on current dosage until seeing new doc in 3 weeks to discuss her thoughts as to a new strategy.  Hope and belief in a better future propels us all on doesn't it?