More Going On Than Just Withdrawal

[[na...]]

This applies to me only. Not saying its true for anyone else.

 

I have had to slowly admit to myself that there is a lot more going on with me than just Valium withdrawal. The small Valium dose I'm on and the Valium I came off of stopped being important months ago. I have been over the Valium addiction for a while and have just been blaming my problems on withdrawal when there are other reasons.

 

I started taking Valium for a reason. That reason is now back.

[[Ju...]]

Hi Nathan.  Of course, only you know yourself.  This is very true.  However,  you say that you are "over your Valium addiction".  Yet, you are still taking Valium.  It's not possible to be over a dependency until the medicine is fully withdrawn, IMO.  Did you know that the low doses of Valium give a very high percentage of buddies here big withdrawal problems?  I don't believe we can truly know what our situation is until we have completely withdrawn from the medicine and have some months of healing time under our belts.  The very small doses of Valium can pack a great deal of punch.  Please keep this info. in mind as you continue to evaluate your situation.  Good luck! 

[[Ju...]]

Well, I am glad you've got your situation figured out.  That's good.  For me, I could not tell a big difference between 3mg of Xanax, (60mg of Valium equivalency),  and my very low doses of Xanax.  Each time I tapered down, I got hit with symptoms and then I went through a period of stabilization.  So each cut, after stabilization felt the same as prior to cutting.  I remember thinking --- it's going to be rough on 1mg of Xanax after having been on 3mg.  But I felt no different.  The same held true for me even on .0625mg of Xanax.  It didn't feel much different than 3 full Mgs.  Maybe I was more alert but that's about it. 

 

When I jumped off of .0625mg, the day I jumped the very reason I took Xanax came roaring back into my life --- crippling insomnia.  However, I was not willing to believe that I would be an insomniac for the rest of my life so I remained benzo free.  It took about 3 months for my sleep to regulate again, but it did and I sleep very well now.  If I had given up within that 3 month period and said --- to heck with it --- this is my underlying condition returning and reinstated, I would not have known that my sleep would return.

 

There is absolutely no way to tell what is an underlying condition returning or what are withdrawal symptoms due to the way that withdrawal mimics what we took benzos for in the first place, in my opinion.

 

Ashton was a huge pioneer and I admire her greatly.  However, when it comes to the nature low dose dependency, I trust the accounts of many of the buddies that I have read about here.  Particularly the accounts of a member named Bart.  Low dose dependency is very real and yes some buddies still suffer from dependency even with seemingly tiny doses.

[[In...]]

Benzo withdrawal has symptoms that mimic our original problems. Not only that, they are magnified many many times more in w/d. It very well could be your original issue, or it could be something that clears up / diminishes 3,6,12,24 months after you complete the valium taper.

[[Te...]]

Have you seen a therapist for your phobia/anxiety? You are on really a tiny dose of Valium that shouldn't have any therapeutic impact. However, if it works for you, more power to you. However, the phobias, anxiety, etc., will never go away unless you address them in therapy and find out what causes them.

[[In...]]

Yes, whatever works. For most people here the low dose no longer works and they have to go up and up and up. Maybe it will take you 3 months or 10 years or 50 years or 150 years to need more. Staying on the same low dose for a period of many years with no trouble seems to be in the minority. For me it didn't really work from day 1. So if problems arise in the future you will have the knowledge to taper off if you don't want to begin the cycle of raising your dose. Take care!

[[hu...]]

In my humble opinion, the smallest benzo pills are purposely made to contain a large enough dose that it is difficult for anyone to "jump" from that dosage. Big pharma is in it for big profits ... big profits come from life-long customers.

 

With all we know now and with the proliferation and democratization of information via the Web, can anyone seriously doubt that Big Pharma would be that Machiavellian?

[[fr...]]

I don't agree with your doctor about panic disorder. It does have a cause. When a person is feeling generally stressed in their life, at random times, seemingly for no reason, the person will have a panic attack. The body operates somewhat independently from the mind, and just because you can't identify an immediate cause doesn't mean there isn't one. The body will fire off adrenalin whenever it feels like it.

 

The answer is to learn relaxation techniques and use them daily to reset the body's response to stress. Doctors want you to believe that you need a drug to cure this so called "panic disorder". They want to make it out like it is a medical condition that can only be treated by giving you benzos.

[[Fl...]]

In my humble opinion, the smallest benzo pills are purposely made to contain a large enough dose that it is difficult for anyone to "jump" from that dosage.

 

I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories but I do think that even small doses of benzos are a bigger deal than they are made out to be. If one person can ct 4mg of K without a problem but the next person has a seizure after stopping 1mg I don't see how anyone can say for certain that .125mg or even less isn't enough to do anything.

[[hu...]]

In my humble opinion, the smallest benzo pills are purposely made to contain a large enough dose that it is difficult for anyone to "jump" from that dosage.

 

I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories but I do think that even small doses of benzos are a bigger deal than they are made out to be. If one person can ct 4mg of K without a problem but the next person has a seizure after stopping 1mg I don't see how anyone can say for certain that .125mg or even less isn't enough to do anything.

 

The latter part of what you said makes sense to me. The former part does not. I don't want to promote thread digression, but ...

 

There is such a mountain of hard, factual evidence to show that Big Pharma cares only about profit and not about people! If you accept that premise, than how could it be a "conspiracy" to suggest that they act in accordance with the guiding values they have demonstrated time after time on issue after issue?

 

If you don't accept that premise, then okay. We can leave it there.

 

I wouldn't mention it ... except that I believe it is so integral to the very issue of what this forum is all about. That is to say, the doctors don't know and big pharma doesn't care. Otherwise there would be no need for this forum!

 

 

[[Fl...]]

I won't argue the point that pharmaceutical companies place profit above people but the idea that there is a group of scientists and executives sitting around a table trying to determe the minimum dose that will keep people "hooked" is a bit far fetched.

[[hu...]]

I won't argue the point that pharmaceutical companies place profit above people but the idea that there is a group of scientists and executives sitting around a table trying to determe the minimum dose that will keep people "hooked" is a bit far fetched.

 

FloridaGuy,

 

Consider: The very first benzo was Librium, which was first marketed in 1960 by Hoffmann–La Roche. In 1963 Hoffmann–La Roche introduced Valium. These are considered by many to be the "easiest" benzos from which to withdraw.

 

Similarly, Prozac was the first SSRI and is considered relatively easy to withdraw from. Later SSRIs like Effexor and Lexapro are considered to be among the hardest from which to withdraw.

 

Is it possible that the drug companies are purposely learning to make drugs that are harder to get off of?

 

Is it possible that Coca-Cola has spent millions in R & D to engineer a formula that makes Coke (and particularly Diet Coke) as addictive as possible for the greatest number of people?

 

Am I really a crazy conspiracy theorist for thinking that these corporations will stop at nothing to maximize their profits? Really?

 

I'd take it over to GLP or LOP, but I've been banned from those places and I surely can't afford to get banned from BB!!!!  Happy Thanksgiving!

[[hu...]]

 

A person such as myself who has anxiety issues cannot possibly blame all of his problems on benzo withdrawal. It takes guts to admit there is more going on than just withdrawal. Blaming everything on withdrawal is not the way to fix every problem.

 

Nathan,

 

I actually agree with your premise that some may continue to blame benzo withdrawal for psychological symptoms when benzo withdrawal is no longer the cause of the symptoms.

 

However, I fail to see how continuing to take a daily benzo is a solution for the underlying problem (regardless of the semantics that the current version of the DSM uses to characterizes the problem). It seems like common sense to me that a drug (legal, illegal, whatever) just masks the pain and helps one to cope temporarily while simultaneously making it more difficult to get at the root of the problem!

 

But, that's modern medicine circa 2013 ... attack the symptoms and don't try to cure anything.

 

Human

[[Fl...]]

I think there is probably something to what you are saying. You know your body best.

 

But at the same time I think you are trying really hard to convince yourself that it isn't the benzo that is causing your problems and I think there is a reason for that and that might be clouding your judgment a little.

 

Anyway, just something to think about. At the end of the day we all have to do what is best for us as individuals.

 

[[Fl...]]

It could be that the biggest reason for protracted symptoms is a failure to recognize there are other problems. It's easy and convenient to blame withdrawal for every problems. That may not be the best way to solve those problems.

 

Or it could be that benzos can cause serious long term problems for some people.

 

I was put on clonazepam for anxiety, now 3 years after my last dose anxiety is the least of my problems. I still have a handful of other symptoms as well but the only thing that is significantly affecting my life is my cognitive issues.

 

I won't go into details but lets just say that they are bad enough that I wouldn't be able to do anything more than a manual labor job right now. This only started after coming off of the benzo. It gets much better in a window but aside from that it has been a serious problem for me ever since I stopped taking clonazepam.

 

It might not be as cut and dried for some people but for me why would I have any reason to suspect that this is anything but benzo wd? Same symptoms as everyone else that only appeared after coming off the drug and 99% of them have absolutely nothing to do with any kind of preexisting condition.

[[In...]]

It could be that the biggest reason for protracted symptoms is a failure to recognize there are other problems. It's easy and convenient to blame withdrawal for every problems. That may not be the best way to solve those problems.

 

Or it could be that benzos can cause serious long term problems for some people.

 

I was put on clonazepam for anxiety, now 3 years after my last dose anxiety is the least of my problems. I still have a handful of other symptoms as well but the only thing that is significantly affecting my life is my cognitive issues.

 

I won't go into details but lets just say that they are bad enough that I wouldn't be able to do anything more than a manual labor job right now. This only started after coming off of the benzo. It gets much better in a window but aside from that it has been a serious problem for me ever since I stopped taking clonazepam.

 

It might not be as cut and dried for some people but for me why would I have any reason to suspect that this is anything but benzo wd? Same symptoms as everyone else that only appeared after coming off the drug and 99% of them have absolutely nothing to do with any kind of preexisting condition.

 

I agree 100% with this. All kinds of strange symptoms that have nothing to do with anxiety that were never present pre-benzos.

 

And the thing is there is no way to separate what is w/d symptoms and what is preexisting during the period of withdrawal. The w/d symptoms are so strong they overpower everything else. We will only find out after being off benzos for a year, two years or longer. It will become clear only in hindsight what symptoms were what.

[[hu...]]

It could be that the biggest reason for protracted symptoms is a failure to recognize there are other problems. It's easy and convenient to blame withdrawal for every problems. That may not be the best way to solve those problems.

 

Or it could be that benzos can cause serious long term problems for some people.

 

I was put on clonazepam for anxiety, now 3 years after my last dose anxiety is the least of my problems. I still have a handful of other symptoms as well but the only thing that is significantly affecting my life is my cognitive issues.

 

I won't go into details but lets just say that they are bad enough that I wouldn't be able to do anything more than a manual labor job right now. This only started after coming off of the benzo. It gets much better in a window but aside from that it has been a serious problem for me ever since I stopped taking clonazepam.

 

It might not be as cut and dried for some people but for me why would I have any reason to suspect that this is anything but benzo wd? Same symptoms as everyone else that only appeared after coming off the drug and 99% of them have absolutely nothing to do with any kind of preexisting condition.

 

FloridaGuy,

 

I don't doubt any of that for a second and it sounds awful. It sounds to me like you are probably an "outlier" ... as I believe many on this forum are.  That does nothing to diminish the reality of the damage psychotropic drugs can do.

 

Question for you: If you had it to do over again would you have tapered more slowly (or possibly crossed over to Valium)? Do you think it would have made a difference?

 

Best,

Human

 

 

[[hu...]]

If you tell your doc that he is ignorant and you know more because you read the internet, what do you expect his reaction to be? We go to our docs wanting them to agree to our treatment plan while we criticize and trash them, sometimes to their face.

 

 

What exactly do you mean by "read the internet?" That phrase has no meaning whatsoever. It means nothing more that "read a book." The veracity of the information kind of depends on the book, right??

 

Now, if I tell a pdoc about the work of Dr. Heather Ashton and he is unfamiliar with it, then what do I expect his reaction to be? Well, it depends on the pdoc. I would hope he would not be arrogant and dismissive because I just educated him about something he should have already known about. I would hope he would thank me and tell me he plans to read the Ashton Manual.

 

It's not that complicated.

[[So...]]

Human...what is an outlier?  I have no idea what that means!

[[Be...]]

Human...what is an outlier?  I have no idea what that means!

 

That means we are in the extreme minority of all benzo users, Sonria.  The intensity and duration of our withdrawal symptoms do not fall in the "normal" area of a standard bell curve.

 

We are "outside of the norm" thus an outlier.

[[So...]]

Thank you Beau Beau!  Sometimes I feel I am crazy!  My doctor think it is not the Benzos.  I never felt like this before!

[[Be...]]

My pleasure, Sonria.   

 

It's not unusual to find that doctors don't know or understand all this.  I don't know why they don't but it's probably for a variety of reasons.

 

I don't think you're crazy, and as you continue to read here you'll find out your feelings aren't unusual.  These drugs do this to us.  It's that simple.

[[Fl...]]

Question for you: If you had it to do over again would you have tapered more slowly (or possibly crossed over to Valium)? Do you think it would have made a difference?

 

Best,

Human

 

I used to be glad that I had tapered quickly but now that I have been dealing with this for so long if I had it to do over again I would have done a longer taper. I don't think I could have been any worse off. I was at least stable while I was on the drug and during my taper so I think there is a good possibility that a longer taper with smaller cuts might have minimized the duration and intensity of this.

[[hu...]]

Human...what is an outlier?  I have no idea what that means!

 

BeauBeau got it right. "Outlier" is just a term from statistics meaning "A value far from most others in a set of data."

 

We're like "the 1%," only instead of being super-rich we're having a super-hard time withdrawing from benzos! 

[[hu...]]

Question for you: If you had it to do over again would you have tapered more slowly (or possibly crossed over to Valium)? Do you think it would have made a difference?

 

Best,

Human

 

I used to be glad that I had tapered quickly but now that I have been dealing with this for so long if I had it to do over again I would have done a longer taper. I don't think I could have been any worse off. I was at least stable while I was on the drug and during my taper so I think there is a good possibility that a longer taper with smaller cuts might have minimized the duration and intensity of this.

 

I'm not surprised by your answer. I ct off Lexapro earlier this year. If I had to do it over again I would have done a slow taper. I really think the duration and intensity of the withdrawal effects would have been shorter, even taking into account the length of the taper.

 

Obviously, we can't prove it. But the more time I spend on this forum, sifting through anecdotal reports, the more I tend to think that going cold turkey (or rapid taper) is a sufficient shock to our brains that it results in something resembling an injury ... an injury that takes longer to heal because it is more of a shock to the system than a slow taper.

 

That was hard to explain. Hope it makes sense.