wake exhausted and tired all day but energetic in the evening? wtf? adrenals?

[[am...]]

here is an interesting quote on another forum i am on;

 

""Regarding the pregnenolone steal theory, It would be interesting to know who started that, it's a mechanical way of thinking about physiology that ignores the things that really matter. Thyroid hormone, vitamin A, and cholesterol support the formation of pregnenolone, and the well nourished body is able to make large adjustments in these, to minimize the need for cortisol. In health, enough pregnenolone and progesterone are produced to inhibit the stress systems, for example by inhibiting the release of ACTH. When something prevents the formation of pregnenolone and progesterone, rising ACTH will increase its production as conditions permit, but if something, such as thyroid hormone, is lacking, the ACTH will increase cortisol, often with DHEA and the androgens increasing too, if resources permit; sometimes the stressed system is able to sustain only cortisol and aldosterone production, and that leads to degenerative problems."

 

 

This person is apparently misinterpreting what pregnenolone steal means. It is also called cortisol shunt.

Basically the problem lies not in the body's inability to make more pregnenolone but in the fact that all the available pregnenolone is being used to manufacture only one hormone out of the whole adrenal cascade - cortisol and ignoring all others like progesterone, DHEA and yes even aldosterone ( at least in me and that's why I supplement with 6 grams of salt per day(!!!))

 

http://www.drlam.com/articles/adrenal_fatigue.asp - good illustration of cortisol shunt; it's much easier to understand if you look at it.

 

I'm not sure if supplementing with pregnenolone will be a good idea for benzo WD. It will ultimately convert into more cortisol because of the tremendous stress the body is experiencing at the moment. It won't be converted into progesterone or DHEA imo under benzo WD conditions.

However under non-stress condition I think it might be really helpful. As for it being a GABA antagonist - it's never just that straightforward- it has neuroprotective functions in the brain and is involved in a lot more processes that might be beneficial.

 

I decided to experiment with DHEA. I know it's silly but I'm in pain all the time and willing to try anything at this point short of RX painkillers. I took it for 3 days at 25 mg (it's insanely high for a woman) to see if I notice any changes at all.

Please don't do what I did - it's for information purposes only - lol

Well the results are encouraging - my heart rate and blood pressure went up 20 points which made me feel like a superhero. I even went swimming for 30 min w/o any pain. I'm not going to take it long term anyway because it will most likely get converted into testosterone which is detrimental for a woman. I also experienced a dramatic spike in aggression which is consistent with high testosterone too.

However it does show that DHEA has very important functions of its own - like cardio protective and

neuroprotective as well because my brain fog cleared up significantly.

It was a crazy experiment though.

 

I'm also using progesterone cream to offset estrogen dominance. Do you have estrogen dominance girls?

 

You don't have to have high estrogen to be estrogen dominant - it is when you progesterone to estrogen ratio is low which mine is.

 

But ultimately using any hormones in benzo WD is probably not wise. Be careful with them.

 

Cheers

 

I hope your weekend is going well

[[Du...]]

Unfortunately Amber, there are a lot of people on here that have no concept of Adrenal Fatigue, and debate even its mere existance, never mind its process and symptoms..which I find remarkable considering a lot of people ended up on benzos to fix problems that could even belong in the AF pool, and also they all trusted the medical profession who gave them their benzo's.

 

One thing I find more amazing is that each and every person on here strive to have their condition of 'benzo withdrawal' acknowledged by the rest of the world, even though in medical terms it dosent exist post six months, yet will argue till blue in the face when another 'mythical' illness is striving for understanding in the world basing their theories, on yes, again, westernised medicinal concepts and theories. It happened with, MS, CFS, then ME (and people still think the two are the same thing!) and one day AF will be in the medical books but there will no doubt be another mystery illness.

 

Cant believe you took that much DHEA! I did warn you!, when I tried it, I was a superhero too and went on a forty mile bike ride! I hope you didnt crash afterwards!

[[...]]

I was like this for a year and a half and still am now.  The fatigue is indescribable, I"m 32 yrs old and I used to train 4-5 days a week and I haven't been able to do that for 1.5+ yrs which is really getting to me.  I definitely seem to be more motivated to do things at night. 

 

I had my cortisol checked and it was within range, I never did the 24 yr test but with all of my other blood tests coming out with no issues it really makes me think that for most people the fatigue problem along with every other one is due to something we can't test for which is GABA, CNS, and other neurotransmitters being out of whack. 

[[Du...]]

I was the same buddy, Karate, mountain biking, sky diving...Im 31.

 

Cortisol testing by the medical profession is non conclusive, you can get a 24 hours salivia test done, which will give you a rough estimate, however as hormone levels change all the time, whatever you are doing on the day you took the test will make differences in the result. However those in true 'burnout', stage 3d/4 adrenal fatigue will have low cortisol throughout the period, those in earlier 'stress' stages will have hgh and lows that are not right to a normal 24 hour rythem.

 

True adrenal fatigue cannot really be shown through an ASI test, its more a set of symptoms and processes, but I know both Amber and I see so many stories on here of people post benzo withdrawal suffering from AF its unreal. AF comes about from long term chronic high physical and mental stress.....and that is benzo withdrawal through and through. We also have a harder time getting back up to a functioning baseline because our bodies cannot accept supplements as we are so sensitive.

 

I really think it would be good for you to read Dr Lams articles on AF. He is a marketing guru and a bit of a scaremongerer but his knowledge and understanding is excellent. Remember all your neurotransmitters are built by your endocrine and gut system, and your CNS is your HPA - which the adrenals play a fundamental part in...

 

Oh you will probably find if you did do an ASI test is that your cortisol levels are higher at night, hence why you are more motivated. It was my problem which took me to benzos, chronically elevated night time coritsol which brought chronic insomnia and the 'wired and tired' state

[[Ja...]]

I am having this too. I am so tired I fall asleep or almost fall asleep on my lengthy commute to work. I also will sleep 12-14 hours on the weekends. But when it comes time to sleep, it is like I don't want to. I plan on going to the doctor and getting tested. Someone mentioned adrenal fatigue.

[[Du...]]

A doctor cant test for AF, he/she will do a 9am cortisol check for Addisons, but you have to be dangerously low, death like low for it to register.

 

The fact you can sleep is brilliant, those in AF cant sleep, you are possibly massively nutritionally depleted, you will get better with a good diet and perhaps supplementation, but it will take time, and you will need to reduce working hours (trust me, I know, its what took me to benzos, trying to work while i was chronically fatigued - put my adrenals in overdrive)

[[Cl...]]

Unfortunately Amber, there are a lot of people on here that have no concept of Adrenal Fatigue, and debate even its mere existance, never mind its process and symptoms..which I find remarkable considering a lot of people ended up on benzos to fix problems that could even belong in the AF pool, and also they all trusted the medical profession who gave them their benzo's.

 

One thing I find more amazing is that each and every person on here strive to have their condition of 'benzo withdrawal' acknowledged by the rest of the world, even though in medical terms it dosent exist post six months, yet will argue till blue in the face when another 'mythical' illness is striving for understanding in the world basing their theories, on yes, again, westernised medicinal concepts and theories. It happened with, MS, CFS, then ME (and people still think the two are the same thing!) and one day AF will be in the medical books but there will no doubt be another mystery illness.

 

Cant believe you took that much DHEA! I did warn you!, when I tried it, I was a superhero too and went on a forty mile bike ride! I hope you didnt crash afterwards!

 

I second this. I can't tell u how many people here have told me I've been sucked I to a do toes web or I am making it all up when I try to describe adrenal fatigue. Yet these are people who are suffering from a different chronic condition that no doctor will agnowledge.  We're just goin to have to deal with it.

[[pr...]]

here is an interesting quote on another forum i am on;

 

""Regarding the pregnenolone steal theory, It would be interesting to know who started that, it's a mechanical way of thinking about physiology that ignores the things that really matter. Thyroid hormone, vitamin A, and cholesterol support the formation of pregnenolone, and the well nourished body is able to make large adjustments in these, to minimize the need for cortisol. In health, enough pregnenolone and progesterone are produced to inhibit the stress systems, for example by inhibiting the release of ACTH. When something prevents the formation of pregnenolone and progesterone, rising ACTH will increase its production as conditions permit, but if something, such as thyroid hormone, is lacking, the ACTH will increase cortisol, often with DHEA and the androgens increasing too, if resources permit; sometimes the stressed system is able to sustain only cortisol and aldosterone production, and that leads to degenerative problems."

 

 

This person is apparently misinterpreting what pregnenolone steal means. It is also called cortisol shunt.

Basically the problem lies not in the body's inability to make more pregnenolone but in the fact that all the available pregnenolone is being used to manufacture only one hormone out of the whole adrenal cascade - cortisol and ignoring all others like progesterone, DHEA and yes even aldosterone ( at least in me and that's why I supplement with 6 grams of salt per day(!!!))

 

http://www.drlam.com/articles/adrenal_fatigue.asp - good illustration of cortisol shunt; it's much easier to understand if you look at it.

 

I'm not sure if supplementing with pregnenolone will be a good idea for benzo WD. It will ultimately convert into more cortisol because of the tremendous stress the body is experiencing at the moment. It won't be converted into progesterone or DHEA imo under benzo WD conditions.

However under non-stress condition I think it might be really helpful. As for it being a GABA antagonist - it's never just that straightforward- it has neuroprotective functions in the brain and is involved in a lot more processes that might be beneficial.

 

I decided to experiment with DHEA. I know it's silly but I'm in pain all the time and willing to try anything at this point short of RX painkillers. I took it for 3 days at 25 mg (it's insanely high for a woman) to see if I notice any changes at all.

Please don't do what I did - it's for information purposes only - lol

Well the results are encouraging - my heart rate and blood pressure went up 20 points which made me feel like a superhero. I even went swimming for 30 min w/o any pain. I'm not going to take it long term anyway because it will most likely get converted into testosterone which is detrimental for a woman. I also experienced a dramatic spike in aggression which is consistent with high testosterone too.

However it does show that DHEA has very important functions of its own - like cardio protective and

neuroprotective as well because my brain fog cleared up significantly.

It was a crazy experiment though.

 

I'm also using progesterone cream to offset estrogen dominance. Do you have estrogen dominance girls?

 

You don't have to have high estrogen to be estrogen dominant - it is when you progesterone to estrogen ratio is low which mine is.

 

But ultimately using any hormones in benzo WD is probably not wise. Be careful with them.

 

Cheers

 

I hope your weekend is going well

 

i am still using a progesterone called prometrium. i wanted to use something else but my liver doesn't seem to be handling it right yet. i guess i will wait to use the pregnenlalone. i do have some DHEA but i think it's pretty high in mg.s

 

what progesterone are you using and do you like it, is it working in a benzo w/d?

 

 

[[am...]]

Dubjam and Clark

 

Remember what happens if you mention benzo WD on Adrenal Fatigue forum?...

Some people completely freak out and call you a drug addict! LOL 

 

I think almost anyone with AF in earlier stages will at one point come near benzos and anyone who touched the poison will end up with some stage of AF. It's stress related and it's inevitable that these two conditions are intertwined like that.

 

After Lam described it so well, its only a matter of time before it gets recognized as real.

The only reason why it might never be recognized at all is because there is no medicine you can treat it with so pharmaceutical companies are not interested and it means no money for research.

CFS can be treated (not cured) with quite a few drugs now and that's why its existence is no longer disputed. The same goes for Fibro.

The only prescription for AF is REST. And a few vitamins.  Who is going to validate this?..

 

Actually it's counterproductive for big pharma to acknoledge AF. People who are sick but don't know what they have tend to consume WAY more drugs than they need because they will be looking for ways to be able to function, pay bills, etc. I'm one good example - ADHD meds, benzos - all because I had no idea what was happening to me and was told it's all in my head. I never had ADHD - I had hormonal problems which compounded on top of each other. For women adrenals are especially important because they regulate the reprodutive hormones which account for the vast majority of depressive diorders.

I wish I knew then what I know now - I would have never ended up like this.

[[al...]]

Hi there guys.....this is the original poster of this thread alabamawerle.....I am not sure how this thread became such a hot topic about adrenal fatigue but it would be so great if we could maybe stick with the original ideas about this thread and not arguing whether adrenal fatigue is right or wrong. I personally think dr lam is a quack...I was one of his earliest patients......I was an early patient of adrenal fatigue diagnosis many years ago.....by many known and intelligent doctors and healers.....never did a thing for me. in fact it ALWAYS made me worse...even the dear ol dr lam...........and I was always blamed for my inability to get better. hmmmmm sounds just like those dr's who push benzo's and psych drugs. listen any program that stresses not stressing and having a balanced lifestyle and eating well and etc.....will make you feel better..i am all for the adrenal fatigue protocol.....but ramming 50 supplements down your throat and hormones and cortisone and oooohhh all the other things i was given,,,,and thousands of dollars worth of tests that are so expensive is so stressful and counter productive. I was never so stressed as when I was being treated for adrenal fatigue. and I would like to point out the obvious remarks on this post that helped me to understand what I had also experienced.......many posters said they had saliva tests done and had normal cortisol levels......when I was at my sickest and the most exhausted I could barely walk I had my adrenals tested constantly over a 24 hour period by a very prominent endocrinologist my cortisol was so high I was diagnosed with pseudo cushings......it was repeated again later on  with the same results. high and low can give the same symptoms. and not just saliva expensive tests can diagnosis it, endocrinologists do know what they are talking about as well, not all doctors are evil not all medication is evil or poison........and nor can someone on a thread in a forum diagnosis someone with adrenal fatigue.....whether it  is real or not. it is controversial and all that...but regardless of that the cure is the same...eat well, exercise, stress coping mechanisms, light exercise, sleep. so why not focus on this advice to others here and not debating adrenal fatigue.............or could you at least please kindly do that in another thread I would be very thankful....warm regards....alabamawerle........and thank you to those that confirmed that they too had normal cortisol and still crippling fatigue.......it makes me really believe that this really is just benzo related....and time will heal all wounds and a BODY just every so slightly out of whack IN EVERY AREA! lol!

[[am...]]

Pretty

 

I just started using Progest Menstrual Solutions bioidentical progesterone cream by Emerita.

It's been only 10 days so it's too soon to say if it's doing anything.

 

I use it because my progesterone came up extremely low on the saliva test and progesterone to estrogen ratio was also very low 41 (100-500 range). I trust Dr.Lam because everything he said in his articles turned out to be true in my case. Not everybody had success working with him and I think it's because he is only a genius when it comes to hormones (especially women) but he ignores other potential problems originating in the CNS or neurotransmitter imbalances that are not stress related. He has good information on OAT (ovarian/adrenal/thyroid) axis imbalance too. I know you were interested in that.

 

Here is an article on estrogen dominance:

 

http://www.drlam.com/articles/estrogen_dominance.asp

 

I didn't notice any interactions of the cream with benzo WD so far.

 

I have no idea what to do about DHEA. I'm glad that something worked but I can't take DHEA because of its potential to get converted into testosterone (next hormone down the line). If I ever take it again it will be not more than 5 mg. I guess it's something that works better for men anyway because I noticed I got very angry and upset in the end of my experiment and it's not a good sign My husband hid it from me 

If you do take it please be careful and start with a low dose - not more than 5mg.

 

Dubjam warned me that it made him bounce of the walls too and he only took 2.5 mg!

 

Wish you all the best guys

 

P.S: a very good diagram how hormones are made in the body:

 

http://www.womentowomen.com/adrenalhealth/dhea-naturalandsupplementation.aspx

[[ih...]]

Pretty, prometrium is the exact same molecule that is made in your body. If you are having problems with this, it's unlikely that you will tolerate other forms of progesterone any better. Prometrium does work very well for me, (mostly I use it vaginally), although the bioidentical progesterone cream also works fine for me.

 

I have had the same problems with DHEA as Amber in the past, it has resulted in unduly high levels of testosterone.

[[pr...]]

Pretty, prometrium is the exact same molecule that is made in your body. If you are having problems with this, it's unlikely that you will tolerate other forms of progesterone any better. Prometrium does work very well for me, (mostly I use it vaginally), although the bioidentical progesterone cream also works fine for me.

 

I have had the same problems with DHEA as Amber in the past, it has resulted in unduly high levels of testosterone.

 

actually i am not having problems with the prometrium i just don't like all the ingredients like the dyes and PUFa's so didn't want to use in vaginally so i just pick it with a pin and put it all over the vaginal area hoping most of it goes inside. i really don't wish to use it vaginally with those ingredients but do you think that is the only way it will work for the most benefit?

i have a DHEA that is 25 mg. do you think that is an all right mg.? i still don't know what to do about the progesterone dilemma. i want to use progest+E as it's dissolved in Vitamin E and made from cholesterol not a wild yam but i don't think my liver is too happy with it. i need to clear out my liver and check the enzymes as i do intend to one day try the progest+E again.

[[ih...]]

You will certainly get better absorption intra vaginally but no doubt some will be absorbed from topical application. It does contain peanut oil & unless you are allergic to peanuts, there is no evidence that this is harmful.

 

I know you follow Dr Peat, (& I can't share your views on this one, another large study has just come out finding that PUFAs reduce inflammation whereas animal fats increase it), but even if you believe Dr Peat is right, the amount of oil in one prometrium cap is very small. It's also true that the caps do contain artificial colouring though so perhaps the progest is a better option for you.

 

Given that you are not menopausal age, there is also the question of whether you are in fact progesterone deficient. I know that Peat believes that progesterone can also be used to treat brain injury but again this is speculative theory. Progesterone is not a benign hormone & there is definitely such a thing as too much progesterone which may increase the risk of breast cancer as progesterone acts on a number of genes that are responsible for triggering inflammatory processes. I can cite you relevant studies if you are interested in reading more.

 

I am taking progesterone to balance my estrogen replacement therapy but taking progesterone alone without evidence of deficiency may increase risk.

 

DHEA supplementation is generally not a big risk for healthy people but I have seen quite a few reports of adverse reports to androgen hormones when people are still in withdrawal.

 

[[pr...]]

You will certainly get better absorption intra vaginally but no doubt some will be absorbed from topical application. It does contain peanut oil & unless you are allergic to peanuts, there is no evidence that this is harmful.

 

I know you follow Dr Peat, (& I can't share your views on this one, another large study has just come out finding that PUFAs reduce inflammation whereas animal fats increase it), but even if you believe Dr Peat is right, the amount of oil in one prometrium cap is very small. It's also true that the caps do contain artificial colouring though so perhaps the progest is a better option for you.

 

Given that you are not menopausal age, there is also the question of whether you are in fact progesterone deficient. I know that Peat believes that progesterone can also be used to treat brain injury but again this is speculative theory. Progesterone is not a benign hormone & there is definitely such a thing as too much progesterone which may increase the risk of breast cancer as progesterone acts on a number of genes that are responsible for triggering inflammatory processes. I can cite you relevant studies if you are interested in reading more.

 

I am taking progesterone to balance my estrogen replacement therapy but taking progesterone alone without evidence of deficiency may increase risk.

 

DHEA supplementation is generally not a big risk for healthy people but I have seen quite a few reports of adverse reports to androgen hormones when people are still in withdrawal.

 

i do follow Peat but it is so much trial and error and i was getting a little too angst about trying not to use any PUFA's or other chemicals at all. i was even going to totally stop the prometrium but i do like it. i think i will try it vaginally. (you think it's okay to do so huh?) that would be the only PUFA that goes inside of me since i got off everything else including all things that were in my cosmetic and hygiene use. i changed everything.

 

i still haven't got my progesterone and other hormones labs yet because i am still having so much troubles getting out of bed during the day--i cannot believe what happened to me. i so thought i would at least be able to start running some little errands but in some ways i am worse. it's just taking so damn long for me. i still vibrate as if i just finished doing a c/t. i can't believe it! i am starting to feel suicidal at times. but i am just not the suicidal type . i hope! i need more strength!

[[Di...]]

Hi Pretty

 

I agree with what ihope has said. Dr Peat - yeah well, forget about him. There are much more knowledgeable and reputable sites available like Prof John Studd and Dr Elizabeth Vliet.

 

Prometrium (or it is known as Utrogestan in most countries) is a bio-identical micronized progesterone, it is the most natural progesterone you will get because it matches identically the hormone your body produces, and it is perfectly safe to use vaginally. I doubt you will get much benefit from using it topically, because it's just not designed to be used that way. If you prefer, you can take it orally, but basically it is designed to be used internally. Like ihope, I use it vaginally to balance my oestradiol HRT because I can't tolerate the synthetic progestins in most HRTs.

 

People do need to be careful about how much progesterone they use, and make sure that if they are using it they actually NEED to use it. It shouldn’t be considered some kind of “cure-all”, even though a lot of these progesterone creams that you buy in stores and on-line would have to think that’s what it is. If I could get away with not using progesterone at all, and at the same time not risk the health of my uterus, I would.

 

Incidentally, I’ll just add that a lot of doctors don’t put any trust in saliva tests, because usually the saliva is collected in plastic tubes and that can interfere with the results. Also, testing of hormones by any method is prone to inaccuracies because hormones levels can fluctuate so much.

 

[[pr...]]

no, ihope said she couldn't share her views on it--

 

i know you guys don't like him for whatever reason but i am still reading his stuff and i will continue to do so.  and i am sure that i've actually read a lot more than the people who put him down. but i am also a very open minded person too. i did read Dr. Elizabeth Vliet website and in fact she is highly recommended on Peat's forum. and i also read Prof John Studd's website too when you told me about him.

 

but this is why i don't really speak about him on here anymore. i do still like a lot of his views and there are some things that kinda annoy me too. i just don't think i will be the kind of person to ever be on a estrogen type of bio identical in my life because i was on one for awhile and it wasn't good for me. i do feel better without it in some respects. but first things first is getting my levels checked and interesting note about the saliva being collected in plastic tubes--that can surely alter results.

[[Di...]]

Horomone therapy isn't for everyone, and not everyone has to take it. Hopefully as you approach menopause you may not need it. Perhaps the type of oestrogen you were on before didn't agree with you. The bio-identical oestradiol is the best kind because it is the most identical to our natural hormones.

 

However, to be honest though, knowing what I know now about the advantages of being on oestradial (added bone, heart and brain health) I hope I can stay on it for as long as possible. I'm hoping that as time goes on, and my hormone levels even out, I can just stay on a fairly low dose and only have to take progesterone maybe a couple of times a year.