Need advice on what could possible be going on

[[je...]]

39 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

@[je...] @[Li...] so not sure if you all remember my situation but i stayed on the water taper no reductions just adjusting to the dose I was advised that it could take 3-4 weeks to adjust so stayed on  the water taper with no reductions. I eventually I started to stabilize or atleast feel better and symptoms  were starting to minimize  I wasn’t 100 but was feeling better still had moments but not bad at all . So that took a total of three weeks to do. At the three week mark I started to fear building tolerance to my doses so figured why not start since I felt a bit better ? I cut 1 ml on the 18th of March 1ml from  200ml of water where 1ml= 0.005 of medicine. Felt ok so on day two did another reduction of 1ml. On day three by the time it was time to take my second dose I felt horrible like I was on the verge of a panic attack but kept the reductions going by 1ml now three ml down. Day  four  i felt horrible  and things started to get really bad So then day four I only cut half a 1/2ml but that did not help anxiety spikes/panick and new symptoms. So the next two  days I attempted to hold but on day six I was advised it would be ok to reinstate the 3.5 ml I took off since it wasn’t that much and I felt so bad …but my question/problem is I don’t think I was ready for a taper. From the damage  of all the other med damage early  feburuary then the cold turkey for two days in February22nd  then after that cold turkey two days later I tried the adjusting to the water taper for  3 weeks adjusting then  jumping into a taper on March 18th my CNS is just not having it so I’m back to taking my 1mg split three ways in water 67ml am 67ml noonish and 66 ml pm. Would you all think it would be good for me to hold I was told a week hold to see if things got better then drop slower  but today is day 2 of being back on my original water doses it got a lil better but had panik attack and anxiety all through today haven’t had that in a while didn’t have that at all at the 3 week mark of adjustment to water  haven’t had one in a while too. I think I need to stop everything for maybe another month or two but I’m so scared of building tolerance what do you all think? should I hold for a while to be a place where my body has had time to adjust from everything ? or grit my teeth  and continue after the one week hold to see if I stabilize enough to  reduce  but in lower ammounts of maybe 1/2 a ml or even less .. I’m so upset too I feel like I failed I had to go back up the 3.5 ml. It was roughly a 1.7 percent drop in four days and I felt horrible… am I kindled or is it tolerance already built up just sucks to not know what to doi don’t even wanna think it’s tolerance or kindled makes me nervous but at a loss as to what to do. I was getting reliefe from my doses a while back but after trying this taper not so much I feel like I got thrown back to almost when i cold turkeyd 2 days ….

@[De...], as discussed, we're continuing the conversation here, in order to keep all the information in one place. 

Please allow me to express an observation, not to criticise, but to help you. It seems as if you have a tendency to make adjustments to your taper based on fear of what might transpire in the future and not what is actually happening. You switched to multi dosing because you were pre-empting interdose withdrawal. You switched to a water taper because you were pre-empting lower doses. In this instance you started tapering because you are pre-empting tolerance. And in these instances it contributed to increased withdrawal symptoms. I think if you recognise this pattern, it will help you to adjust how you approach your taper. We cannot taper based on what might possibly happen. We can only address the here and now. 

[[De...]]

14 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

@[De...], as discussed, we're continuing the conversation here, in order to keep all the information in one place. 

Please allow me to express an observation, not to criticise, but to help you. It seems as if you have a tendency to make adjustments to your taper based on fear of what might transpire in the future and not what is actually happening. You switched to multi dosing because you were pre-empting interdose withdrawal. You switched to a water taper because you were pre-empting lower doses. In this instance you started tapering because you are pre-empting tolerance. And in these instances it contributed to increased withdrawal symptoms. I think if you recognise this pattern, it will help you to adjust how you approach your taper. We cannot taper based on what might possibly happen. We can only address the here and now. 

@[je...] No I completely see what you mean it makes sense I’m not offended at all… it makes all the sense in the world… ok well realizing that now I will try to apply that moving forward to my best ability to stop pre predicting the future I do this a lot and I am sorry I really try not to but I will remember your wise words from here on out  … but in terms of the here and the now… do you think I should hold for a another few weeks to stabilize yet again and then move forward with smaller cuts ? I was told to move forward in a week but if I waited 3 and tried to move forward then felt like it was too soon should i wait further ? A month onto of what I had already held or only till these symptoms get lower then try again and smaller cuts and grit my teeth I know symptoms will be there but these were so intense for such a small drop in my eyes ..

Edited March 25 by [De...]
Info left out sorry

[[je...]]

13 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

I was told to move forward in a week

Was this your doctor who advised you?

I think you should hold at least 6 weeks (assuming you've updosed and gone back to the dose before you started tapering a couple of days ago. I think you need to go back to this dose). Just because you feel your symptoms are a bit better does not mean your body has recovered from all the cuts and changes. When I made a 75% cut in my dose I became fully bedridden. I then updosed and was functional within 48hrs - I almost felt normal. But this did not mean my body was ready to start tapering two days later. I held my dose for several more weeks even though I was feeling okay. Had I made another cut just because I felt so much better, I would've sent my CNS into another spiral. I think you need to give your body enough time to recover from the big cuts, and please don't underestimate the cuts from the Propanolol.

[[De...]]

30 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

Was this your doctor who advised you?

@[je...] Yea I see what you mean it all makes so much sense… I’m so dumb sometimes I let fear dictate my pace I wasn’t ready and knew it but still started the taper…No my doctor actually said to hold when I had cut 3 ml only I coincidentally had an app that day but she didn’t say for how long I should hold but  I didn’t listen and cut another 1/2 a ml. To be honest the person who told me too was from a  very small support group but they mentioned tolerance and getting off sooner the better since I had only been on 3 months this time. I have used lorazepam in the past 3 mg for about 4 weeks got off not problems in 2018…. then for a week in 2022 again got off no problems after a week use… Just a  person I met giving their input. Is it still considered an up dose it was 0.0175 gone from 1mg in the course of 4 days then held on day five, then day 6 I went back to my full 1mg I haven’t gone further than the 1mg just added the 0.0175 I cut and was told this was safe since it was so small and close to when I cut it  In terms of holding ok I will accept that I need to stop fearing the future and for now will do my upmost best to hold for that 6 week  range before anything else will even come back here to talk again once i reach a more stable point to see what you think at that time and how im doing update wise.

Edited March 25 by [De...]
Less clutter learned something new..

[[je...]]

1 hour ago, [[D...] said:

I’m so dumb sometimes I let fear dictate my pace I wasn’t ready and knew it but still started the taper

You're not dumb, you just did what you thought were best.

1 hour ago, [[D...] said:

To be honest the person who told me too was from a  very small support group but they mentioned tolerance and getting off sooner the better since I had only been on 3 months this time.

Normally that advice might be considred somewhat correct, but we need to take into consideration your entire history- the fact that you have been on benzo's previously plus the fact that you are not stable and have had lots of drug changes the past three months. Withdrawal doesn't happen in a vacuum. 

1 hour ago, [[D...] said:

Is it still considered an up dose

Technically it is, because you went down a couple of days and then back up. But I wouldn't get hung up about it. It happened. Whether it is an updose or not, there's nothing you can do about it other than accept it and move forward. I don't know if I told you (it feels like I tell everyone) but I've updosed twice. I only tell people this so you don't feel alone or feel ashamed or feel there's anything wrong with it. It's just a course correction, that's all it is. Of course we don't want to be doing it every two weeks as it's not ideal, but you didn't know any better, and now you do. 

[[De...]]

1 minute ago, [[j...] said:

You're not dumb, you just did what you thought were best.

Normally that advice might be considred somewhat correct, but we need to take into consideration your entire history- the fact that you have been on benzo's previously plus the fact that you are not stable and have had lots of drug changes the past three months. Withdrawal doesn't happen in a vacuum. 

Technically it is, because you went down a couple of days and then back up. But I wouldn't get hung up about it. It happened. Whether it is an updose or not, there's nothing you can do about it other than accept it and move forward. I don't know if I told you (it feels like I tell everyone) but I've updosed twice. I only tell people this so you don't feel alone or feel ashamed or feel there's anything wrong with it. It's just a course correction, that's all it is. Of course we don't want to be doing it every two weeks as it's not ideal, but you didn't know any better, and now you do. 

Thank you for the kind words and the help for now I’m gonna try and take it easy not read as much on what could happen and focus on letting my body recovery for a good while here’s to hoping I do start heading towards stabilizing again 7 days ago I was feeling like I was making some progress I hope this setback heads back to those days so one day I can finally be ready to start doing this taper properly  way when my body is ready. I am stuck on one thought that is if I don’t see any signs of stabilizing or improvement  I may have to come back to you and from what I have heard just have to start the taper but not gonna worry about that now may not even happen need to fight those thoughts off better. Again thank you for everything @[je...] I appreciate all the help. 

[[De...]]

@[je...] @[Li...] Hey wanted to update and maybe get some more insight. It’s been 18 days today holding and I believe something happened. First five days were pretty rough then It was seeming like I was starting to kinda of feel better not by a ton but considerably improved. Then around day 15 I started to get really bad restlessness like almost like restless leg syndrome. The following past days have come with increased anxiety even when I take my doses. By night and third dose I usally would get a window of feeling normal and hardly any anxiety  but those nights  are gone these past four days and now I’m waking up in the morning  with racing heart and my nightmares are back in the morning along with that those had gone away too for a while but now they are back … i don’t want to think I’m hitting tolerance but I don’t have any clue other than that so my question is what should i do? If this me hitting some form of tolerance what’s my next step do I still continue to try and hold for that those 6 weeks we talked about or give it another 2 weeks max and drop either way I’m even considering a switch to Valium/diazepam maybe I’m getting interdose symptoms but that will be a whole setback in itself as switching will take time and considering I switched my dose to three times a day to pre prevent this I’m not sure how likely this is the case …im up right now and the anxiety is pretty bad still not time for my dose but im not getting any relief these past four days like I was before feels like something just snapped one morning and my anxiety was back full force…what should I do..also question on the proponolo when should I taper that should I do that one first considering I’m near the end for that one… I heard to drop by 5 mg every 1-2 weeks ide well at the point I could drop to just 5 mg a day split into two doses then stop after 2 weeks should I go forward with that or should I not mess with anything as of now …

Edited April 9 by [De...]
Info left out

[[je...]]

I’m sorry you’re experiencing some issues. Have you made any changes to any of your medications or dosing times? Have you started or stopped any supplements or vitamins? Do you have any stressors or anxiety in your life right now?

[[De...]]

15 hours ago, [[j...] said:

I’m sorry you’re experiencing some issues. Have you made any changes to any of your medications or dosing times? Have you started or stopped any supplements or vitamins? Do you have any stressors or anxiety in your life right now?

None that i can think of I started drinking coconut water a bit more for minerals as I was not eating but had no issues when I first started about a month ago and adding things to my food list but nothing crazy besides a bit more cheese and eggs in the morning I did eat some more sugar like cookies that I haven’t had in months but how can sugar do the it could be possible but m i have now cut out anything extra surgery …honest i felt like I was doing not so good then I had a wisdom tooth removal  two days after I had talked to you last time it went  super well no complications but I guess surgery is surgery and can stress the body but the surgery went well no complications whatsoever only took Tylenol and ibuprofen for the first night then I didn’t have to take anything ,the problem is my akathaisa seems to have come back that’s what’s freaking me out now. I had developed it from seraquil we think back in February and it had gone down within a month and a half, but four days ago seemingly out of no where  I started waking up with restless legs and terror in the mornings like before. Now I’m not sure if it’s interdose withdrawal since I only take three doses or if it’s my akathaisa comming back from benzo use contemplating  going to a rehab oro house  in California to get off as safely and fast as possible. It came back out of no where I know it can be a symptom from benzo withdrawal but how can that be if I haven’t messed with anything in more that two weeks today would be day 20 of holding steady no changes I know this is not linear but still something dose not make sense. Unless the proponolo and lorazepam were masking it this whole time but I never felt this at any point besides when I first got it back in February. Maybe I’ve hit tolerance on lorazepam  and the low dose of proponolo is not enough to help  or my  lorazepam fluctuations have thrown me off but it is so wired before this I had two days a week ago where I felt completely normal then out of no where this started . I  might really consider going to this to house recovery in California as they use Ashton method modified it might be a little fast but if the medicine is turning on me I really don’t have an option im trying to hold onto hope that if I continue to hold where I’m at this will pass but only thing that has improved is the startled easily aspect I just woke up restless legs.a bit lower but that can change and  the rapid heart and terror are back I feel like I went backwards I feel sick and nausea and random times of the day I don’t know what I’m going to do…

Edited April 11 by [De...]
Info left out sorry again

[[De...]]

14 hours ago, [[D...] said:

None that i can think of I started drinking coconut water a bit more for minerals as I was not eating but had no issues when I first started about a month ago and adding things to my food list but nothing crazy besides a bit more cheese and eggs in the morning I did eat some more sugar like cookies that I haven’t had in months but how can sugar do the it could be possible but m i have now cut out anything extra surgery …honest i felt like I was doing not so good then I had a wisdom tooth removal  two days after I had talked to you last time it went  super well no complications but I guess surgery is surgery and can stress the body but the surgery went well no complications whatsoever only took Tylenol and ibuprofen for the first night then I didn’t have to take anything ,the problem is my akathaisa seems to have come back that’s what’s freaking me out now. I had developed it from seraquil we think back in February and it had gone down within a month and a half, but four days ago seemingly out of no where  I started waking up with restless legs and terror in the mornings like before. Now I’m not sure if it’s interdose withdrawal since I only take three doses or if it’s my akathaisa comming back from benzo use contemplating  going to a rehab oro house  in California to get off as safely and fast as possible. It came back out of no where I know it can be a symptom from benzo withdrawal but how can that be if I haven’t messed with anything in more that two weeks today would be day 20 of holding steady no changes I know this is not linear but still something dose not make sense. Unless the proponolo and lorazepam were masking it this whole time but I never felt this at any point besides when I first got it back in February. Maybe I’ve hit tolerance on lorazepam  and the low dose of proponolo is not enough to help  or my  lorazepam fluctuations have thrown me off but it is so wired before this I had two days a week ago where I felt completely normal then out of no where this started . I  might really consider going to this to house recovery in California as they use Ashton method modified it might be a little fast but if the medicine is turning on me I really don’t have an option im trying to hold onto hope that if I continue to hold where I’m at this will pass but only thing that has improved is the startled easily aspect I just woke up restless legs.a bit lower but that can change and  the rapid heart and terror are back I feel like I went backwards I feel sick and nausea and random times of the day I don’t know what I’m going to do…

@[je...] and noe another change went to my doc and got proponolo added so now I’m supposed to be back on 20 mg daily 10 in the am and 10 closer to night time. Already took ten at 12:00 pm didn’t help at first but got some windows now so idk I guess it helped still not sure if this is bad my next dose is coming up and not sure if I should take it or just count my loses and stay on just 5mg in the morning and 5 and might  I still have 30 minutes to decide this as I have only taken my max dose I’ve been on for today so far but my next dose will be another 10 not sure what I should do but the other 10 seemed to have helped. Update : I ended up just taking a five mg dose figured if I’m going back up maybe slow is better that way I won’t change things to much so now instead of 10 mg max dose for the day I took 15mg today so 5mg more of proponolo pretty much the dose I was on when I was in my way more stable days before the cold turkey and water taper try out. 

Edited April 12 by [De...]
Update

[[je...]]

Apologies for my late reply, I had some family commitments to take care of and I wasn't able to login. How are you doing now @[De...]?

[[De...]]

15 hours ago, [[j...] said:

Apologies for my late reply, I had some family commitments to take care of and I wasn't able to login. How are you doing now @[De...]?

Things were going ok what for the first 2 weeks then not so much. My Akathisia came back out of no where didn’t get much sleep for 8 days. Saw a new physiciatrist he wasn’t happy about me dosing in water saying that what i was doing could be affecting the obsorption rate and that I could pretty much be peeing out my doses he  suggested I go back to two doses a day in pill form he said the half life would be enough for two doses of lorazepam. He also suggested a switch from proponolo to Guanfecin. He told me to give that a week and see him again then we could talk about the taper. I told him about how I had cold trukeyd cannabis and he said my system is probably still recovering from that and that I shouldn’t be thinking about even tapering in my current state that my priority’s  are off. He first wants something to control my anxiety the guanfecine and if that works then we can worry about the taper. As I have aka before benzos I have to take this into consideration as the withdrawal could cause it and I guess in a way it did from that last episode… what do you think @[je...] ? I don’t know much about a water taper a lot of people suggested it and a lot of others say that it comes with its own problems and not everyone can tolerate it . To be honest I never had any of these issues when I dosed in pill maybe going back to pills will work or maybe it will make me spiral. What’s your thoughts???

[[je...]]

I think your situation is very complex with the many changes you've made. I also wasn't aware that you had stopped cannabis. I don't know much about Guanfecine. When it comes to water tapering, I know many people have successfully done it, but I also know that some people are extremely sensitive to liquids and they struggle immensely with DIY liquids. In your situation it is very difficult with so many variables to pinpoint what could possibly be causing your symptoms and how to proceed. I am so sorry but I am really out of my depths here. If you are looking for guidance from a medical professional who has personal experience with benzo withdrawal, this thread might be of interest to you. 

I wish I could be of more help, but unfortunately I just don't know. I can give you emotional support. You can also try Surviving Antidepressants, as they have vast knowledge about tapering psych drugs. 

[[De...]]

On 16/04/2024 at 17:23, [[j...] said:

I think your situation is very complex with the many changes you've made. I also wasn't aware that you had stopped cannabis. I don't know much about Guanfecine. When it comes to water tapering, I know many people have successfully done it, but I also know that some people are extremely sensitive to liquids and they struggle immensely with DIY liquids. In your situation it is very difficult with so many variables to pinpoint what could possibly be causing your symptoms and how to proceed. I am so sorry but I am really out of my depths here. If you are looking for guidance from a medical professional who has personal experience with benzo withdrawal, this thread might be of interest to you. 

I wish I could be of more help, but unfortunately I just don't know. I can give you emotional support. You can also try Surviving Antidepressants, as they have vast knowledge about tapering psych drugs. 

@[je...] Would you know anyone who could also maybe give this a read? Maybe an updose for me would work for now since I didn’t take to the water taper dosed my pills like normal today and have noticed improvements but I spent 6 weeks trying to adjust I feel like  I wasted time I don’t think I’m in tolerance but my doctor and i talked and I  suggested an updose to about 1.5mg split three ways  then once the raging fire stops we could try the taper dry cutting. Everything is a risk I know but at this point I have gone back to dosing in pill form. Just wondering if an updose for someone like me could have  higher success rate.. I’m just trying to get the akathisia under control and maybe get it to go into remmison before I restart my taper I still feel my doses felt them today for hours or more now that I’m taking them in pill any other people who could help chime in would be greatly appreciated @[Co...] or any other admins that could maybe atleast some input …

[[je...]]

It's really difficult because you had akathisia prior to benzo use. As I suggested before, it might help to ask at Surviving Antidepressants as well. I am so sorry, I can understand this must be very distressing.

[[De...]]

Just now, [[j...] said:

It's really difficult because you had akathisia prior to benzo use. As I suggested before, it might help to ask at Surviving Antidepressants as well. I am so sorry, I can understand this must be very distressing.

I made an account and made a post but to no replies an admin just changed the name of my post but that was it guess I’m just gonna have to go with my gut and hope I’m right I have limited options and only one other very similar situation like mine from a taper buddy who was in the same situation updosed held for town months Akathisia remission then continued taper and is now at 1.61 from 2mg. 
 

[[je...]]

I wish I could be of more help. Just tell me, when did you stop the cannabis?

[[De...]]

17 hours ago, [[j...] said:

I wish I could be of more help. Just tell me, when did you stop the cannabis?

It’s been 4 months now  stopped December 11, 2023 

[[je...]]

28 minutes ago, [[D...] said:

It’s been 4 months now  stopped December 11, 2023 

Okay I see. Gosh there’s been so many changes within such a short time frame I really don’t know what to make of it all. Sometimes updosing works, sometimes it doesn’t. It’s hard in this case because the symptom you’re trying to manage wasn’t initially caused by benzo’s. That’s not to say benzo’s can’t treat it, but I have a better understanding of withdrawal symptoms as a result of benzo’s. Maybe start a thread in Withdrawal, Use and Recovery specifically about akathisia and include your history to see if others can help you with input on the akathisia?

[[De...]]

6 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

Okay I see. Gosh there’s been so many changes within such a short time frame I really don’t know what to make of it all. Sometimes updosing works, sometimes it doesn’t. It’s hard in this case because the symptom you’re trying to manage wasn’t initially caused by benzo’s. That’s not to say benzo’s can’t treat it, but I have a better understanding of withdrawal symptoms as a result of benzo’s. Maybe start a thread in Withdrawal, Use and Recovery specifically about akathisia and include your history to see if others can help you with input on the akathisia?

I’ll try my best I spoke to a guy who was going through a similar thing as me he he upsides to 2mg eventually stabalized aka went into remmison and how he’s down to 1.61 in his taper he had hit tolerance and needed a way to calm it before he could taper I’m hoping I will have the same results I try and make a post there as if right now I’m being hit with waves of depression. I don’t think the water dosing was being effective to be honest I wish I would have listened back when you andnlibertas told me to go back I was afraid back then should have just done it as it’s what I’m doing now anyway at a higher dose 

[[je...]]

Just be kind to yourself. We all try our best to navigate this. And even if I gave you my opinion there’s never any guarantee in this process that it would 100% work. 

[[De...]]

Just now, [[j...] said:

Just be kind to yourself. We all try our best to navigate this. And even if I gave you my opinion there’s never any guarantee in this process that it would 100% work. 

That is true won’t know till we try I’m hoping this will open the gates to a successful taper soon. Fingers crossed for success