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[De...]

So I’m new but I’ll try to keep my story quick and concise with enough info back I’ve always struggled with ocd anxiety and depression and have been on mends in the past back in 2017 I was eventually on 200 mg of quetipije and 69 of Prozac where I made a full recovery during that time I was taking 3 mg of Ativan daily for about a month was able to quit all medications with no issues Ativan in a month with no symptoms i noticed an Prozac and quetioine 7 months after no issues I ended up smoking cannabis after that till about December 11 2023 I quit cannabis out of choice and my ocd anxiety depression no sleep came back waited out a month before I decided to go to a psych cuz I though maybe my old symptoms came back and I needed meds to chill for a bit till then so December 20, 2023 I started taking lorazepam on and off in high anxiety moments while I waited  a psych appointment on February 1 where I went and got back on quetipine and porzac off the rip 60 of Prozac and 100 of quetioine where in the 4 day of taking it I would increase to 200. When I did that I had an adverse reaction head burning and developed akathaisa after that we discontinued the quetipine  the day after but  I took Prozac for two more days before before we took me off that aswell. During that time we tried a few other meds in conjunction to the lorazepam to alleviate akathaisa symptoms proponolo and gabapentin. I couldn’t tolerate the gabapentine so stopped it after taking for only three days but continued to take the proponolo and lorazepam .My Akathisia started to improve in record time the doom feeling, s, burning ,  anxiety and pacing was there but not as bad as the beginning eventually leading up to me thinking it was healing for good but I knew I had to get off the lorazepam so I started planning to get off it.  I was taking anywhere from 0.5-1 mg of lorazepam some days 1.5 rarely and about 20-40 mg of proponolo daily. Eventually my akathaisa let up a bit and  I felt good so was taking 0.5 of lorazepam starting February 12 daily for before an appiment I had on the 21st of February .I was doing ok with just that morning dose of 0.5 I still had extreme anxiety at points  that I know think may have been interdose withdrawal but I was managing. February 21st I had an appointment with a doctor that suggested I switch to clonazepam since it was longer acting and I did. Took one dose of 0.25 clonazepam that night and felt ok. Woke up the next day and didn’t dose the normal lorazepam  I took every morning by the night  where I had most my windows were gone so I dosed another .25 of clonazepam  with no relief but went to bed . Woke up the next day and took another .25 of clonazepam instead of of my lorazepam and again no relief and things were getting worse by 5 pm I figured it out that I was possibly having withdrawals from no lorazepam and dosed 0.5 of lorazepam and felt much better not 100 but way better so I figured I pretty much had Cold turkeyd my waited. I stopped dosing the clonazepam and went back to taking lorazepam but the dmg I believe was already  done I had to take 1 mg daily split into two doses instead of my usual 0.5 only with everything flaring back up burning sensations restless akathaisa anxiety off the charts all came back from that one move. I probably should have just kept dosing in pill form and tried to stabilize but I  also figured since I was gonna be tapering lorazepam sometime in the future  I may aswell inform myself in taper methods. I had settled on wanting to do a water taper and figured I could start to practice it now taking my full dose split into water so started to dissolve 1mg of lorazepam in 200 ml of water and splitting the dose three ways to avoid interdose withdrawal as much as possible . I have never taken it like this and I knew that I would be dropping the dose I took in the morning from 0.5 to 0.333 to split the doses evenly but pushed forward since ide still be taking my meds. Since dosing in water form    my anxiety has been weirder not sure if the ct flared my aka or if I’m adjusting to taking it water. Ive recently developed muscle spams and jerks that come and go through the day more when im stressed out or when going to bed that  were not there before the 1-2 day cold turkey. Or even when I got back on lorazepam pill form . Muscle spasm and the jerks on my that wake me up at night  only happed after that short cold turkey and dosing with water even in the beginning of switching to water they were not there but slowly started to develope in these past 5 days. I’m at a loss as to what happened or if my Akathisia is getting worse. I’m still taking my doses in water as of currently and wondering if it was the cold turkey that hurt me and then switching to water shocked me aswell so maybe I just need to stabilize taking it in water for a while or maybe I should go back to the pills feels like it might be to late to go back to pills since that again would be another switch shocking my system further  ? Almost feels like tardive dyskinesia or dystonia my lips almost wanna pucker my feet clench so do my legs or if it’s muscle spasm around those areas and  my mouth that do that and I will admit it happens more when I’m stressed or super anxious. Any insight would be helpful I’m hoping I havent ruined my chances of recovery i should have never attempted to switch benzo I was doing better also two nights ago I worked myself up so much looking up stuff about the muscle jerks spams  the face eyes lips info two nights ago I didn’t sleep kept getting jerks that woke me up and I couldn’t go back to sleep at all that was a day ago but the following day I did no reading still had spams but not the ones that woke me up or in the face just my legs and hands/arms……info on total so far I’ve been on meds is  lorazepam heading to about 3 months of daily use currently and proponolo  since Feb 8th down 40 mg to 2.5 mg in the morning and 5mg at night tapering this currently not very slowly around 5 days per drop   was told I could stop taking it three days ago by my doc not taking  chances shocking my system anymore. I feel like messed myself up more by all these changes and am scared I won’t come back from this ..

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[je...]

Hi @[De...]

Gosh you’ve been through a pretty rough time. I’m really sorry. There has also been so many changes in your medication which I’m pretty sure has had an effect on your symptoms. It’s a bit difficult for me to follow all the med changes. Please can I ask that you list your meds chronologically according to date and dose so we have a summary of what happened? That will be much easier to glance over. 
 

Once I have that I’ll be in a better situation to make some suggestions. 

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[De...]
Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

Hi @[De...]

Gosh you’ve been through a pretty rough time. I’m really sorry. There has also been so many changes in your medication which I’m pretty sure has had an effect on your symptoms. It’s a bit difficult for me to follow all the med changes. Please can I ask that you list your meds chronologically according to date and dose so we have a summary of what happened? That will be much easier to glance over. 
 

Once I have that I’ll be in a better situation to make some suggestions. 

(So pretty much lorazepam 0.5-1  the doses were mainly in the am and midday by nighttime I would get windows so hardly used near sleep hours then Feb 12-21st of just 0.5 only in the am around 6-8 am. Through the earlier days around December of last year a few times  up to 1.5 mg but very rarely mainly the stated doses before since December 20 2023 till present day.) currently taking the lorazepam  1mg in 200ml water since February 26th to present day  consistently daily split into those three doses for 12 days now .) but ever since that cold turkey and switch to water I’ve been getting these muscle spasm twitches in the face body pretty much anywhere and one night they kept me up I didn’t sleep the entire night. That night I had read some really bad stuff so my CNS was in fire I felt it . But those spams started way before I did any reading just started randomly one day after that ct I haven’t been doing the best. I know by doing that water taper I dropped the 0.5 am dose I used to take to 0.333 but I didn’t think it was a big deal and I was trying to split my doses evenly.

Quetipine Feb 1st-4th was only for four days then Ct to adverse reaction. Prozac Feb 1st-6th taken 6 days then Ct. as we suspected adverse reaction aswell both these meds were taken at the same time/week.

gabapentine Feb 9-11 three days total one day 300mg then two days of 900 split into three doses then Ct to adverse reaction.

proponolo bouncing around dose 60mg for a week then 30mg for a week then  20mg split into two doses for 1-2weeks then 10 for 1-2 weeks then currently 5mg twice a day. Since February 9th
 

Clonazepam 0.25 took only three doses total across three days  (Feb 21st .25)(feb 22nd .25) (feb 23rd .25) then stopped. Feb22-23 is where I pretty much Ct lorazepam I did dose till Feb 23 when I realized what was happening way later in the day after getting bad Wd symptoms.
 

I don’t think I missed anything but thank you for the quick response hope to hear back soon 🙏 

 

Edited by [De...]
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[je...]

Hi @[De...]

Thanks for this, but I'm going to ask you for a bit more. I need only dates and doses. Very few words or descriptions of what happened. I need to look at your history and by looking at the numbers without reading paragraphs, I have to get an overview of what happened. I'm sorry if this seems pedantic, but the majority of us are in withdrawal and it is hard to extract the information from paragraphs. 

To give you an example of what we need, please click on this link and see how this person has done it https://benzobuddies.org/profile/334455-[je...]/?tab=field_core_pfield_34

So you can do it like this (I just made it all up below):

2024

01/01 0.5mg Ativan (dose x2 per day) cut to 0.5mg 

01/04 Stop Quietapine start Clonazepam 0.5mg x2 per day

02/03 water taper Ativan 1mg x3 per day

Thank you!

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[De...]
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, [[j...] said:

Hi @[De...]

Thanks for this, but I'm going to ask you for a bit more. I need only dates and doses. Very few words or descriptions of what happened. I need to look at your history and by looking at the numbers without reading paragraphs, I have to get an overview of what happened. I'm sorry if this seems pedantic, but the majority of us are in withdrawal and it is hard to extract the information from paragraphs. 

To give you an example of what we need, please click on this link and see how this person has done it https://benzobuddies.org/profile/334455-[je...]/?tab=field_core_pfield_34

So you can do it like this (I just made it all up below):

2024

01/01 0.5mg Ativan (dose x2 per day) cut to 0.5mg 

01/04 Stop Quietapine start Clonazepam 0.5mg x2 per day

02/03 water taper Ativan 1mg x3 per day

Thank you!

 

12/20/23 -12/31/23 lorazepam  0.5 twice a day 

1/1/24 - 1/4/24 quetipine 100mg first three nights 4th night switch to 200 

1/5/24 quetipine CT

1/1/24 - 1/6/24 prozac 60 mg for four days then 40 for 2

1/7/24 Prozac CT

1/9/24 -1/11/24 Gabapentine 300 mg one night then 300 x 3 a day for two days 

1/12/24 gabapentine CT

 

1/1/24 - 2/11/24 lorazepam 0.5 twice a day 

2/12/24 - 2/21/24 lorazepam 0.5 am only dose 

2/21/24  (0.5 lorazepam am) .25 clonazepam pm 

2/22/24 no lorazepam am dose clonazepam .25 pm 

2/23/24 no lorazepam am dose (clonazepam .25 am)                   lorazepam 0.5 5pm reinstate

2/24/24 Clonazepam CT

2/24/24- 2/25/24 lorazepam 0.5 twice a day  0.5 am - 0.5 afternoon

2/26/24 lorazepam 0.5 am then 0.5 in 100ml of water split two ways.

2/27/24- 3/8/24 1mg of lorazepam in 300 ml of water split three ways 0.333 8 am 0.333 2 pm 0.333 9 pm 

Proponolo

1/9/24 20 mg x 3 a day 

1/20/24 20mg  twice a  day 

2/10/24 10mg am 10mg pm 

2/19/24 10mg am 5 pm 

2/21/24 -3/8/24 5mg am 5mg pm 

Hope I did this right sorry tried my best… 

Edited by [De...]
Forgot to put CT for clonazepam
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[je...]

Thank you that's perfect! I'll write a response now. 

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[je...]

@[De...]

There have been so many changes to your meds in a relatively short time. We also need to consider that you've been on a benzo before which might contribute to making this cessation attempt a bit more difficult. 

Right now my advice would be to hold your propranolol at the current doses. 10mg is not a very high dose from my understanding, but I think tapering right now of anything might make your situation worse. How were feeling on Lorazepam twice a day on pills? It sounds to me like you switched to a 3x water taper because you were pre-empting a taper, not necessarily because you were experiencing interdose withdrawal yet or because it was getting worse. 

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[De...]
17 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

@[De...]

There have been so many changes to your meds in a relatively short time. We also need to consider that you've been on a benzo before which might contribute to making this cessation attempt a bit more difficult. 

Right now my advice would be to hold your propranolol at the current doses. 10mg is not a very high dose from my understanding, but I think tapering right now of anything might make your situation worse. How were feeling on Lorazepam twice a day on pills? It sounds to me like you switched to a 3x water taper because you were pre-empting a taper, not necessarily because you were experiencing interdose withdrawal yet or because it was getting worse. 

Yea I was feeling good on and off when it was 0.5 twice a day then one day didn’t feel like I needed the second dose so cut it to once a day in the am then felt ok but felt I was missing a dose but stayed that way . You are right I was attempting to pre attempt a taper figured ide eventually get interdose so tried to do that before I would  start the actual taper but I feel like the most damage was when I missed those doses of lorazepam in an attempt to switch to clonazepam. I’ll keep the proponolo for now the same but what about the lorazepam should I stay with the water taper and what’s up with these muscle jerks and twitches in my face/body should I go back to the pill form should I up dose idk what to do I feel like I should just stick to what I’m doing now I feel anymore switches will make things worse but idk what to do …

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[je...]

I am a bit concerned with the water. Most benzo's do not dissolve in water, therefore they form a suspension not a solution. There are quite a bit of pitfalls when you do a water taper. The symptoms you're experiencing might not be related to the water at all, it might be a delayed reaction to all the changes, but we just don't know. But if it were me, my first option would be to go back to pills. With pills, we do know it is consistent and there's no external factors influencing the doses as there might be with water. I'm just not sure if we attempt two or three doses in pill format. It will be easier to taper two doses, but I don't know if you're now used to three doses and if it might cause more destabilisation. What is your feeling? 

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[De...]
1 minute ago, [[j...] said:

I am a bit concerned with the water. Most benzo's do not dissolve in water, therefore they form a suspension not a solution. There are quite a bit of pitfalls when you do a water taper. The symptoms you're experiencing might not be related to the water at all, it might be a delayed reaction to all the changes, but we just don't know. But if it were me, my first option would be to go back to pills. With pills, we do know it is consistent and there's no external factors influencing the doses as there might be with water. I'm just not sure if we attempt two or three doses in pill format. It will be easier to taper two doses, but I don't know if you're now used to three doses and if it might cause more destabilisation. What is your feeling? 

By now I’m definitely used to three doses a day but I don’t have a scale or any of those things to split  my doses into three from pill and I’ve pretty much been doing 0.333 of a pill three times a day idk how I would get that in pill form or how to measure that consistently figured water would eliminate any filing ide have to do as I had heard that could be pill filler and also make it inconsistent but for sure I am used to three doses it’s been 12 days of three doses so ide say three doses for sure ide be too afraid to go back to just two and then I react I’ve reacted to everything else lately 

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[je...]

Let me just think on this for a bit. I'll get back to you.

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[De...]
1 minute ago, [[j...] said:

Let me just think on this for a bit. I'll get back to you.

Ok for sure thank you. 

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[je...]

I’m asking input from some other team members . It can take a bit of time to get back to you because we’re in different time zones. For now I suggest you just stick to what you’re doing and hold all doses for now. 

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[De...]
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, [[j...] said:

I’m asking input from some other team members . It can take a bit of time to get back to you because we’re in different time zones. For now I suggest you just stick to what you’re doing and hold all doses for now. 

Ok sounds good thanks for everything 🙏 still have these wired muscle twitches/spasm also feel like I have to tense  up curl my feet or body super tense on it’s own the ones that woke me up haven’t happened since that one night but they are constant through the day wired as but I’ll hang in there I I’m scared that if the possibility that I might be having a side effect of extrapyramidal symptoms  and maybe I should cold turkey before more damage …

Edited by [De...]
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[je...]

I definitely will not recommend a cold turkey from your meds. At this stage the most likely explanation for your symptoms is the rapid taper of the propranolol and the many changes to your meds. Propranolol can also cause dependency. 
 

I have had a chat with a team member and we both think you should go back to pills. We also think it’s best to go back to where you were most stable and that was at twice a day dosing. I know you’re hesitant to do that but we think if you can stabilise at what worked for you before then that would be good. 
 

So our recommendation is to go back to pills at 0.5mg twice a day and hold all medication until we see some improvement. How do you feel about that?

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[De...]
1 hour ago, [[j...] said:

I definitely will not recommend a cold turkey from your meds. At this stage the most likely explanation for your symptoms is the rapid taper of the propranolol and the many changes to your meds. Propranolol can also cause dependency. 
 

I have had a chat with a team member and we both think you should go back to pills. We also think it’s best to go back to where you were most stable and that was at twice a day dosing. I know you’re hesitant to do that but we think if you can stabilise at what worked for you before then that would be good. 
 

So our recommendation is to go back to pills at 0.5mg twice a day and hold all medication until we see some improvement. How do you feel about that?

I ended up going to the er today they think I’m in withdrawal that’s where these symptoms are coming from and suggested since I’m already 13 days into taking it like this power through stabilize then move forward with the water I don’t think I could switch again atm… my CNS wants stability and if I go back to 2 a day then I know for sure that night dose that I have now implemented might come back to bite me idk how I feel at this point I’m told to stick it out like this and power through part of me wants to go back to pill form but if it dose not work out then I’ll be even more hurt as I feel any changes just doing go well at all for me .. 

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[je...]

I'm so sorry you had to go the ER. I understand - you have to do what you feel is best. If you need to reach out for support to get through the symptoms, you can start a thread on the Withdrawal Forum. :hug:

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[De...]
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

I'm so sorry you had to go the ER. I understand - you have to do what you feel is best. If you need to reach out for support to get through the symptoms, you can start a thread on the Withdrawal Forum. :hug:

Thank you for all the help I kinda wanna tag libertas as I’ve heard he dose water tapering and what he thinks is going on but idk how to do any of that but I feel like it’s mainly the 30 cr and then the almost 12 percent drop to two doses in the span of a day I’m hoping I stabilize I’m functional rn but these jerks and spasms stress  me out so bad ..ear popping too only left ear 

Edited by [De...]
Info forgot ..
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[je...]
1 hour ago, [[D...] said:

Thank you for all the help I kinda wanna tag libertas as I’ve heard he dose water tapering and what he thinks is going on

She was the person I was in contact with about your situation and the suggestion about your taper came from the both of us. She is not doing a water taper, she is doing a liquid taper using a stability tested compounded liquid through a pharmacist. 

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[De...]
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, [[j...] said:

She was the person I was in contact with about your situation and the suggestion about your taper came from the both of us. She is not doing a water taper, she is doing a liquid taper using a stability tested compounded liquid through a pharmacist. 

So if I could get liquid lorazepam could I still do the water taper I’m able to get a solution that’s 2mg per ml I could theoretically drop 0.5 of that solution then mix it in water to get my doses ? Would that make it more accurate or is getting a liquid made specifically for me better if you all can help me figure that out I could talk to my doctor and see about getting it made … for rn I for sure can get a solution that’s 2mg per ml. My current taper plan has me jumping in 190 days 200ml of water with 1ml removed each day every fifteen days is around a 0.075 reduction 

Edited by [De...]
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[je...]
1 hour ago, [[D...] said:

So if I could get liquid lorazepam could I still do the water taper I’m able to get a solution that’s 2mg per ml I could theoretically drop 0.5 of that solution then mix it in water to get my doses ? Would that make it more accurate or is getting a liquid made specifically for me better if you all can help me figure that out I could talk to my doctor and see about getting it made … for rn I for sure can get a solution that’s 2mg per ml. My current taper plan has me jumping in 190 days 200ml of water with 1ml removed each day every fifteen days is around a 0.075 reduction 

You can switch to the manufacturer's solution and it will be better than your own DIY suspension. However I'm a bit confused as you just said before you are not able to make another change. This will be another change. Just because it is in liquid form does not mean it is not a change. 

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[De...]
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, [[j...] said:

You can switch to the manufacturer's solution and it will be better than your own DIY suspension. However I'm a bit confused as you just said before you are not able to make another change. This will be another change. Just because it is in liquid form does not mean it is not a change. 

Oh I figured it be closer in terms of bioavailability to how I’m dosing in water…since it’s liquid ide be dosing the same amounts but more accurately since the liquid would mix better with water I have have acces to lorazepam intensol solution so ide still be mixing it in water just figured it would be way more accurate than pills that don’t dissolve…. But I guess your right it would still be a change..just thought it be less of a shock since it’s closer to what I’m doing now ..but now I’m thinking her liquid is different than the intense lo haven’t heard of stability tested compounded liquid how would I go about getting something like that so I can keep the same more or less doses of what I’m doing now I mainly thought maybe my accuracy is wrong with water and these types of liquid are way more accurate then my own solution but yea change none the less..

Edited by [De...]
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[Li...]

@[De...] If you have access to the manufacturer’s concentrated oral lorazepam solution, my inclination would be to trial that before considering a compound.  We have several members who have tapered successfully by diluting the Intensol (concentrate).  You can learn more about this by entering the words lorazepam and Intensol in our search engine.

 

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[De...]
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, [[L...] said:

@[De...] If you have access to the manufacturer’s concentrated oral lorazepam solution, my inclination would be to trial that before considering a compound.  We have several members who have tapered successfully by diluting the Intensol (concentrate).  You can learn more about this by entering the words lorazepam and Intensol in our search engine.

Thank you the info! yes I figured since bioavailability wise me doing pills in water would much resemble lorazepam intensol as I feel like it hits harder way faster I’ve become more used  to this way now of it hitting my body quicker. In all honesty this was going to be my primary way of doing my taper  my doctor was on board with getting me that I was going to put 0.5 of intensol in 200 ml water solution and work my way from there down by removing 1ml each day increasing figured that it would make it so the lorazepam  would be way more evenly distributed in the water than crushing and shaking a pill but we couldn’t put the prescription in because I had an active pill subscription and the pharmacy would have flagged my dr and i …….so I opted for pills in water in hindsight I should have waited for the pills to almost run out to then start like that but I wanted to start the process of getting off asap as I’ve only been on for about 3 months now I got ahead of myself but maybe this will pay off as they say intensol hits faster and these pills in water have been doing the same so now a switch to that for accuracy might be a good thing .. what do you think ? My prescription can be refilled in a couple of days seeing my doctor soon and she was on board last I soooe to her for now I’ll go look at what you mentioned see if I can find more info on how the taper would go down. Thank you both for all the help and sorry If ive been annoying or changing mind slot just trying to find the best way to do this I’m learning as I go… also for sure I know now that the ct was probably what caused all this if only I had stuck to what I was doing before trying a dumb switch to clonaz I wouldn’t have been set back just hoping a 2 day ct and that I haven’t been on long term didn’t do a lot  of damage 

Edited by [De...]
Benzo brain spelling…
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[De...]

@[je...] @[Li...] Figured I’de repost this but I’m very sorry jelly baby didn’t mean to mess up and make another thread I apologize…..so not sure if you all remember my situation but i stayed on the water taper no reductions just adjusting to the dose I was advised that it could take 3-4 weeks to adjust so stayed on  the water taper with no reductions. I eventually I started to stabilize or atleast feel better and symptoms  were starting to minimize  I wasn’t 100 but was feeling better still had moments but not bad at all . So that took a total of three weeks to do. At the three week mark I started to fear building tolerance to my doses so figured why not start since I felt a bit better ? I cut 1 ml on the 18th of March 1ml from  200ml of water where 1ml= 0.005 of medicine. Felt ok so on day two did another reduction of 1ml. On day three by the time it was time to take my second dose I felt horrible like I was on the verge of a panic attack but kept the reductions going by 1ml now three ml down. Day  four  i felt horrible  and things started to get really bad So then day four I only cut half a 1/2ml but that did not help anxiety spikes/panick and new symptoms. So the next two  days I attempted to hold but on day six I was advised it would be ok to reinstate the 3.5 ml I took off since it wasn’t that much and I felt so bad …but my question/problem is I don’t think I was ready for a taper. From the damage  of all the other med damage early  feburuary then the cold turkey for two days in February22nd  then after that cold turkey two days later I tried the adjusting to the water taper for  3 weeks adjusting then  jumping into a taper on March 18th my CNS is just not having it so I’m back to taking my 1mg split three ways in water 67ml am 67ml noonish and 66 ml pm. Would you all think it would be good for me to hold I was told a week hold to see if things got better then drop slower  but today is day 2 of being back on my original water doses it got a lil better but had panik attack and anxiety all through today haven’t had that in a while didn’t have that at all at the 3 week mark of adjustment to water  haven’t had one in a while too. I think I need to stop everything for maybe another month or two but I’m so scared of building tolerance what do you all think? should I hold for a while to be a place where my body has had time to adjust from everything ? or grit my teeth  and continue after the one week hold to see if I stabilize enough to  reduce  but in lower ammounts of maybe 1/2 a ml or even less .. I’m so upset too I feel like I failed I had to go back up the 3.5 ml. It was roughly a 1.7 percent drop in four days and I felt horrible… am I kindled or is it tolerance already built up just sucks to not know what to doi don’t even wanna think it’s tolerance or kindled makes me nervous but at a loss as to what to do. I was getting reliefe from my doses a while back but after trying this taper not so much I feel like I got thrown back to almost when i cold turkeyd 2 days

 

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