Converting from dry to liquid

[[En...]]

No problem, I appreciate your input.  I did read elsewhere today that a few who went straight from dry to liquid became nauseated, which I was for the earlier part of today.  But I feel fine now.  The dry taper has worked well for me and I've felt pretty good, but I went back to weighing a whole week again today and damn...it's so time consuming and scale is all over the place and I have crumbs and pieces and it's just such a pain.  At the dose I'm at, a few thousandths here or there won't make a difference, but at some point I anticipate it will.  The full or half pill with a liquid balance that the other posters use sounds really good, and your method at .5 and down looked really efficient.....but please clarify something for me.  You wrote......"Remember that your mixture is 8/2/1 = 1 mg pill plus 2 ml vodka to dissolve plus 8 ml water to round it up to 1 ml. Mix like this and your concentration is always the same. So, you have this strength of mix based on 10, and the use a 1 ml syringe. It will probably have 50 lines on the syringe. You draw with that syringe from the above mixture and a full syringe equals 1 mg or 1 pill. Just make sure to use 1 mg pills".....end quote.  Wouldn't 2ml vodka +  8 ml water round it up to 10 ml instead of 1...and therefore instead of a full 1ml syringe equal to 1mg...wouldn't a full 1ml syringe be equal to 0.1mg?  Have I missed something?

[[Li...]]

Picture the three items to combine:

 

1 pill that = 1 mg of benzo

2 ml of vodka

8 ml water

 

Mix to = 10 ml liquid (and little traces of the pill filler plus active ingredient)

 

My starting dose would be 9 ml drawn for 10 percent reduction if I started at 1 mg. Since I started at .5, the draw for my first dose (no reduction) was 5 ml.

 

I think I missed a decimal on the other post. Probably was thinking toward the end of the taper when I'd reduce by 1/100 of a ml on the 1 ml syringe. I didn't worry about math then. Reductions were so very tiny that I figured I would not notice them, and I mostly didn't (though generally felt pretty god awful during taper).

[[sl...]]

I've never prescribed how anyone should do anything here.

 

Case in point...

Take your time and check out as many ideas as you can tolerate. Just don't give up. Try something that feels right. If it doesn't work, try something else. Circle back later if need be. And, be very kind to yourself during the process. You need support including from yourself.

 

The aforementioned quote is abbreviated to include only your prescriptive statements.

 

I noticed a few members that have a hard time using suggestive language, and many buddies can read between the lines and recognize the the opinions within these attempts. I was suggesting being aware that this style of writing can be confusing for our members not all of which post on the thread; these are prescriptive statements and we are not qualified to share our experiences in this format. It's basic BB guidelines on the giving of medical advice; please consider using phrasing to indicate suggestions such as "I suggest", "you could", "you might" etc. Or you could speak in the personal, such as "I have", "I did", "I believe", "I've seen", "I think".

 

Otherwise it's useful to use evidence to support factual statements such as...

Remember that your mixture is 8/2/1 = 1 mg pill plus 2 ml vodka to dissolve plus 8 ml water to round it up to 1 ml.

I'd appreciate if you have any evidence that 2ml of vodka can dissolve 1mg of clonazepam. Keeping in mind that the destruction of the tablet into water isn't the same thing as dissolving of the medicine contained in the tablet. Earlier I gave the evidence I have which suggests that 2ml of vodka diluted with 8ml of water cannot possibly dissolve 1mg of pure clonazepam, much less a tablet-based form.

 

I thought message boards were spaces where people shared their experiences.

They certainly are! Your experience is very valuable, even if it's for a different medication and unsupported by medical evidence.

 

Lilyann, I hope you understand that my goal was to clarify that to my best understanding the nature of your proposed method for making a liquid clonazepam is at-best a water suspension. I said that there is nothing wrong with a water suspension, only that it has less stability than other methods and therefore may be less reliable to dose. The simplicity of water suspensions are attractive to taperers, and I value that.

 

Thanks again for sharing your personal experience and opinions. I think at least some buddies understand that this is all you're sharing, and hopefully my posts help to make that clear to any who might be confused by your wording. 

 

Edit: Typo

[[Li...]]

.

[[sl...]]

I am sorry your thread keeps getting hijacked, Enufalready2021.  (This sometimes happens when one member attempts to moderate the post of another member instead of using the “Report This Post” feature to alert the forum Administrators and Moderators of a possible issue.)

You have an interesting perspective on this peer-support forum Libertas.

 

For example, alprazolam and diazepam are both soluble in 95% ethanol whereas clonazepam is only slightly soluble.

Libertas, do you have any research data that proves this factual claim about alprazolam being soluble in 95% ethanol?

 

Clonazepam was shown to reach a maximum saturation in 90% ethanol of 6.18mg/ml; that's quite a potent mixture! "Only slightly soluble" seems misleading when an recommended dose of clonazepam is 1mg and 6mg+ can be dissolved into a single milliliter at 90% ethanol.

---

 

Enufalready2021, I do agree that the recipe you've described ("25ml of 100 proof vodka and 65 ml of bottled water for a total of 9 x 1mg tablets into 90ml") seems to lack sufficient ethanol to dissolve the 9mg of clonazepam.

 

At 10% ethanol, 90ml was shown to dissolve ~3.6mg of pure clonazepam. At 20% ethanol, 90ml was shown to dissolve ~7.2mg. It doesn't look like 90ml at ~16% ethanol, per Libertas' calculations, will be sufficient to create a solution of 9mg under even ideal conditions.

 

However, regarding Lilyann's suggestions, you may be able to make progress on your taper by simply suspending your deconstructed tablets in water. I think there is a loss of reliability by this method, but there may be less confusion about what is taking place on the chemical level.

 

Finally, an alternative for making a liquid from tablets is using a proprietary liquid suspension vehicle; these liquids provide a number of pharmacokenetic properties, including those that help to evenly distribute an undissolved but deconstructed tablet or tablets and make dosing more reliable than using something like water with or without insufficient ethanol.

 

Brands such as Versa Free and Ora-Plus are available for sale online and perhaps locally. While I have not used these products myself, I think they have an advantage over compounding in that you can trial the suspension vehicle by itself for a week or two while dosing separately with a more familiar method. If you tolerate the suspension vehicle ingredients, you could then use it to suspend your tablets at whatever reasonable concentration you want, and know that any symptoms taking place on your new suspended liquid are caused by changes in absorption and not due to intolerance of the liquid ingredients. In my opinion minor absorption issues can be adapted to, while intolerance of liquid ingredients is more often a deal-breaker.

 

Again, from my own experience I highly recommend considering a liquid/tablet hybrid as the safest way to trial any liquid once familiar with reliable tablets.

 

I hope you keep finding options that work for you! 

[[En...]]

No apologies are necessary to me.  I'm learning from every response, and accept that my solution is not an accurate one and will be disposed of.  So....I'm quoting a portion of the "Tapering progress" post from TMH a few days ago......"I received a pm about how my taper is going by Slowandsteady “ thank you for asking” who was instrumental in my technique, he has extensive note that are easy to follow. This method has made me very stable with almost zero side effects, a little insomnia that very manageable, granted I’m only though about a .130 of my total amount.  I’ve just made a second batch of liquid with 1mg K to 8ml of alcohol and water to make a .125mg ml solution that’s very accurate and stable and lasted 15 days at room temp in an amber glass bottle. I use a 1ml syringe with 100 graduations to taper the .125 portion of my dose the rest is taken in my normal pill form......end quote.  OK, now this amount and concentration combined with a full pill has great appeal to me, easy to make, and would well suit my needs for now as I'm going to be above 1 mg for at least another month or two.  The concentration bears some similarity to Lillyann who used 2 ml of alcoho and 8 of water.  So let me please ask....for this 1mg K to 8 ml of alcohol and water solution .....exactly how much alcohol was used, how much water was used and what was the alcohol %?  Does this meet the research criteria to fully dissolve a 1mg pill?  Thanks all.

[[sl...]]

Hi Enufalready2021,

I believe that TMH unintentionally left out key information in that quote. He dissolved 1mg clonazepam into 8ml of final solution volume. He called this final solution "alcohol and water" without indicating the ethanol-to-water ratio. I believe TMH is using 30% ethanol as this ratio is known to dissolve as much as 0.2mg/ml pure clonazepam. Unfortunately this ethanol-to-water ratio was implied, and I believe this may have been the cause of some confusion on this thread.

 

What I believe TMH is making is very similar to what I am making, only with a smaller batch size. I can tell you how I would make it using 100 proof vodka. The steps are important because the final volume needs to be 8ml, including the volume of the tablets, in order to have 0.125mg/ml. This volume measurement is easy if the steps are done in a certain order.

 

First I'd measure 4.8ml of 100 proof vodka in a 10ml graduated cylinder. Then I would add 1mg of clonazepam in tablet(s) to the cylinder. I would let this soak and stir occasionally for a while, maybe 30 minutes to an hour. Then I would carefully dilute this mixture to the 8ml mark on the graduated cylinder, stir vigorously, and then transfer the liquid to a medicine bottle or other small air-tight jar for storage. I prefer to store my liquids in the refrigerator.

 

That is how I would make a 0.125mg/ml liquid from clonazepam tablets using 100 proof vodka as a solvent, intending to create a true solution of the clonazepam. I would, as I've mentioned, treat this liquid as a suspension but I would expect vastly improved reliability of dosing over a water suspension.

 

I hope this helps. 

[[En...]]

EXCELLENT!!!  Thank you so much.  Small, accurate amounts that can easily be made as needed.  Sincerely thank you to everyone who has patiently waded through all my posts.  In the "why use 10 words when 100 will do" vein....I get a little wordy.  This should fulfill my needs for quite some time.  These scales are just all over the place.  One more question and I won't bother you again...at least not for a few hours.  To make your 30ml solution using 100 proof vodka and arriving at a concentration of 0.125mg/ml....I know I would need 3.75 x 1mg pills...or to make it easier...4 pills for a 32 ml solution with a concentration of 0.125mg/ml....what amount of 100 proof water and vodka would be used for the former scenario (30ml--100proof--0.125mg/ml concentration)?  From there I can figure out the 2nd.  Thanks again and have a great day.

[[sl...]]

Yay! 

[[En...]]

I revised with another question....sorry 

[[sl...]]

I revised with another question....sorry 

No problem!

 

To make your 30ml solution using 100 proof vodka and arriving at a concentration of 0.125mg/ml....I know I would need 3.75 x 1mg pills...or to make it easier...4 pills for a 32 ml solution with a concentration of 0.125mg/ml....what amount of 100 proof water and vodka would be used for the former scenario (30ml--100proof--0.125mg/ml concentration)?  From there I can figure out the 2nd.  Thanks again and have a great day.

 

I'm going to show you the math I used to get the alcohol quantity based on the ethanol percentage. Please understand I'm not great at math, but I manage. I'll keep it simple...

 

1. (final volume of solution) * (decimal percent of ethanol desired) = (ethanol required)

ex. 30ml * 0.3 (i.e. 30%) = 9ml

 

2. (ethanol required) / (decimal percent of ethanol in alcohol) = (alcohol required)

ex. 9ml / 0.5 (i.e 50%, i.e. 100 proof vodka) = 18ml

 

So the answer is that with 100 proof vodka, I would use 18ml of alcohol to combine with tablets for the alcohol soak stage, after which I would dilute this to a volume of 30ml for a 30% ethanol-to-water ratio.

 

Can you tell me how many milliliters of 100 proof I'd need to make 32ml at 30% ethanol?

[[En...]]

32 x 0.3 = 9.6

9.6/0.5 = 19.2.............yes??

 

 

[[sl...]]

32 x 0.3 = 9.6

9.6/0.5 = 19.2.............yes??

 

Yes! Not so convenient to measure though. I would round up to 20ml to make my life easier.

[[En...]]

Yes....thanks so much again.  I'm a retired nurse so dosage calculation and how much to draw is no problem once I know how to properly make the solution.  Obviously, that hasn't come so easily to me.  You guys are great.

[[sl...]]

Yes....thanks so much again.  I'm a retired nurse so dosage calculation and how much to draw is no problem once I know how to properly make the solution.  Obviously, that hasn't come so easily to me.  You guys are great.

 

You're welcome! I'm glad to have you with us on this journey.

Keep us posted. 

[[En...]]

Well, after my botched attempt from a few weeks ago which is referred to in this thread, I started my liquid taper portion again today using much less K and much less solution (1.5mg/15ml for a 0.1 mg/ml concentration).  I have 1mg pills and am currently at 1.133.  If I can maintain my current "schedule", I will drop under 1mg daily on Sept 25 and 15ml just about gets me there if I can keep it in the refrigerator that long.  At that point, I will have to come up with another plan....and I'm wide open to suggestions.  I can confidently cut to 0.5mg but quarters are "iffy" even with the good aluminum splitter.  Make bigger batches and use 0.5 dry and the rest liquid? 

[[...]]

Well, after my botched attempt from a few weeks ago which is referred to in this thread, I started my liquid taper portion again today using much less K and much less solution (1.5mg/15ml for a 0.1 mg/ml concentration).  I have 1mg pills and am currently at 1.133.  If I can maintain my current "schedule", I will drop under 1mg daily on Sept 25 and 15ml just about gets me there if I can keep it in the refrigerator that long.  At that point, I will have to come up with another plan....and I'm wide open to suggestions.  I can confidently cut to 0.5mg but quarters are "iffy" even with the good aluminum splitter.  Make bigger batches and use 0.5 dry and the rest liquid?

 

It's my understanding based of the experience of buddies hear regarding splitting pills into quarter will even out because of the longer half life of K. I'm doing it with this method and my concern is how fast I'm cutting more then the quartering issue. For instance I was holding for 6 day with insomnia then cut for a week at the same rate and after a week the insomnia came back, it's the lag time. I just don't want to cut slower at such a high dose, I'll be cutting for 3 years at this pace. I want to play it safe when I get below .5mg I know I can't mess around then.

[[En...]]

That's good to know TMH.  The quarter splits are "close" but not spot on like the halves where I can get nearly equal weights or maybe a .84 and a .86  Your concern over the speed of your cuts resonates with me as well.  I want off this shit as fast as I can handle.  I started my taper on August 13 at 1.75mg K, which I up-dosed to as a starting point because my doses were all over the board.  My dose today is 1.121 mg.  So that's about a 1.1% cut per day over 32 days.  It's not without some bad days of headaches, depression, and shaky hands, but nothing unmanageable.  That said, starting yesterday, I did cut my daily rate of decline to about .09% per day or about 12.6% every 14 days.  Can I continue at this pace?  Time will tell.  I wasn't on it all that long and I do honestly feel that as the blood level ratio of Zoloft to Klonopin widens, the depression has become much better.  But like you, I'm prepared to go as slow as I need to if I hit the wall.  As always, thank you for your advice and best wishes to you.

[[Re...]]

I know this thread is about liquid titration but I humbly request you to look at my post regarding

“Dry powder titration technique for small doses”. Imo its a lot simpler and less error prone and allows you to easily adjust your doses daily weekly etc...  no issues with alcohol, stable for a long time etc.

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=259850.0

 

Good luck to you !

RenewandRestoreUs

[[En...]]

Thank you for a great post.  I don't think you'll be offended by me telling you I'm going to have to read it a few more times.  I understand the principle.  I'm using a small amount of liquid for the part of my daily dose over 1mg, but I go under 1mg next Saturday and am pondering how to proceed.  Thanks again and I'll definitely give it a few more reads.