The science of benzo dependence/tolerance

[[LJ...]]

I just wanted to mention that I did not post my comment in the withdrawal section. I posted this in the "Chewing the fact" section which I believed to be an area where people can just discuss their views on what they personally think about benzo withdrawal.

I personally believe that 90% of the symptoms are actually just psychological. That is just my opinion and I do not claim it is a fact.

My profession is animation. To become a professional animator I had years and years of art training. I worked on about 6 Feature animated movies and about 30 TV series in 20 years. I did not just become a professional by watching Bugs Bunny cartoons.

The same goes with benzos. I did not study medicine, nor science and haven't worked with hundreds of patients in over 20 years so my opinion is pure speculation.

 

I personally was put on Klonopin after some new age quack I went to for a cold, thought she needed to treat my almost non-existing anxiety disorder with acupuncture with the words "I can cure your disorder for ever". The result after the treatment was months and months of severe panic. Obviously I believe it was a placebo effect because I don't believe that acupuncture has any effect but that last bit of doubt was still strong enough to knock me off my feet. Even with a treatment that was based on superstition, I had severe symptoms. Based on this episode, I know how powerful the mind can be. My conclusion is that if people keep reading all these stories on how benzos are more dangerous than heroin and crack combined, among a few of many claims, how powerful can THAT suggestion be? I'm pretty sure these stories are responsible for a great deal of symptoms even if the original reason for taking the drugs were not anxiety. Reading all those horror stories can be responsible for creating a new anxiety disorder.

 

That's just my take.

 

 

[[xe...]]

I just want to say a few things,

 

First of all, benzo w/d has been experienced and cataloged many decades before the Internet came into existence (and yet despite this fact, many doctors are woefully misinformed about it.)

 

Second of all, if you think all benzo w/d symptoms are anxiety-based, you need to do further research. Tremors can be from extreme anxiety for instance. Muscle spasms can not. Neither can skin burning, electric shocks, etc. I can go on much further.

 

Third of all, not everyone on benzos were put on them for anxiety either (nor epileptics for that matter.. I'd like to see you back up your claim that epileptics don't experience w/d, and as princezz quite eloquently responded, benzos aren't used for epilepsy these days.) I was NOT put on benzos for anxiety, and now am an anxious disaster. Never had anxiety before in my life, save what was mild and normal.

 

Fourth of all, protracted w/d syndromes have been acknowledged BY THE DRUG COMPANY! There are studies out there of treatments for it -- flumazenil works quite well, at least possibly only temporarily.

 

Fifth of all.. nah, nevermind. Enough.

 

I honestly believe you are just trolling and am not going to get into a protracted debate with you, though it really might seem like fun, I doubt it will be, especially on such a respectful (and censored) board.

[[Pr...]]

Thank you for posting your ideas. This is, after all, a thread for our pet theories.

 

Yes, I agreed with you that this is the appropriate place for your post.

 

Some things that come to mind:

 

1. The mind is a powerful thing, yes. However the damage caused by benzos is akin to being hit in the head with a brick. It is *physical* (see point 3b)

 

2. Most people only find benzo buddies after weeks or months of suffering, having had no clue that withdrawing could hurt them until they got here.

 

3. Admittedly, many symptoms of w/d are anxiety-related and worsen with stress.

a. This does not mean that are symptoms aren't hell on earth to begin with. It means they go from horrific to even worse.

b. This is to be expected since benzos damage the anxiety-control areas of our brains. This does not mean that we let our anxiety get the best of us. We are speaking of physical damage here. Please take a look at the Ashton manual for the basics of how withdrawal works if you have not already done so. She has an extremely detailed diagram on there that shows the mechanism of action of the benzodiazepine and how it destroys receptors in the brains.

c. The boards are not meant to frighten anyone. We are here so we can gain support from one another. Until I tapered off, I read nothing but success stories (and I know plenty of people who take this approach, posting only when they need help and not reading anything else - see point 3a). I had read the Ashton manual because I wanted to be informed on the process but I did not go trawling the boards in the beginning. Now that I am 5 months off, I *still* don't go looking for horror stories. I just post when I recognize something someone else is going through and I know I can help them through it because I've been there myself.

 

4. Take a symptom like "benzo belly" which is extremely common on these boards. I am not a doctor either but for the life of me I cannot understand how anxiety would cause the stomach of a 40 year old man to swell for weeks on end so that he resembles an elephant about to give birth (have read many such stories here)

 

 

[[LJ...]]

I honestly believe you are just trolling and am not going to get into a protracted debate with you, though it really might seem like fun, I doubt it will be, especially on such a respectful (and censored) board.

 

@xenofears: Why don't you just zip it, man? I'm not even going to discuss anything with someone who accuses me of being a troll five times in a row.

 

@others: I found this blog on the internet and I personally thought it was quite interesting:

http://www.anxietyinsights.info/abstract_gabapentin_neurontinreg_may_alleviate_benzodiazepin.htm

 

[[Co...]]

Hi,

 

Please, cut out the personal remarks - all of you.

 

LJ, you might like to check out the 'About Me' link in my signature line. I took Rivotril (clonazepam) to treat an non-epileptic seizure disorder. There was no other suitable drug available at the time. I probably began to develop tolerance within the year. I experienced terrible classic benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms (and some of the more unusual withdrawal symptoms too). I had no expectation of these withdrawal symptoms. I thought I was taking an anticonvulsant, not an anxiolytic or hypnotic. Still, I suffered all kinds of symptoms that drug manufactures (and many doctors) try to ascribe to underlying anxiety or insomnia. My experience is far from unique. But, you do not have to take my personal anecdote at face value, there is research out there to support my experience.

[Guest [Si...]]

Sigma, does this carrot w/d thing change your diagrams in any way?

No.

 

As far as Epileptics prescribed Benzo's.

I have seen many put on a Benzodiazepine. It's usually Klonopin or Ativan from what I've read. The max dose for Epilepsy is 20mg of Klonopin.

Epileptic patients take higher doses of Benzo's.. than those put on one for Anxiety.. so on.

Benzo's do have a therapeutic use for seizures. I know the first thing they do here in NY.. when one has a seizure or goes into Status Epilepticus, they give them Valium.

I was thought to have Epilepsy at one time because I have jerks. I had seizures as a child.. and a few Partial ones since then.

Actually, sometimes.. NOT TRYING TO SCARE ANYONE.. a Benzo can induce a seizure. I have seen it, especially Xanax in particular.

I have a friend from LI, who has Epilepsy and she takes 6-8mg of Klonopin a day, and still has seizures, so the therapeutic effect for preventing seizures goes away.. and I would think after a year or less..

 

I agree with Eljay, we all have different biochemistry.

 

To note:

Within Math, Probability, Vector Calculus, Algorithms, and Trigonometry are my interests.

Though I do play around with my own Equations &c. The paper I've wasted   over the years.

 

S#

 

 

 

 

 

[[LJ...]]

Hi,

 

Please, cut out the personal remarks - all of you.

 

LJ, you might like to check out the 'About Me' link in my signature line. I took Rivotril (clonazepam) to treat an non-epileptic seizure disorder. There was no other suitable drug available at the time. I probably began to develop tolerance within the year. I experienced terrible classic benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms (and some of the more unusual withdrawal symptoms too). I had no expectation of these withdrawal symptoms. I thought I was taking an anticonvulsant, not an anxiolytic or hypnotic. Still, I suffered all kinds of symptoms that drug manufactures (and many doctors) try to ascribe to underlying anxiety or insomnia. My experience is far from unique. But, you do not have to take my personal anecdote at face value, there is research out there to support my experience.

 

Sorry for the personal remarks but my intention was just to express my own theory. Being insulted as a troll several times in a row just because my opinion isn't "en vogue" with the majority is unfair. I never claimed benzos are harmless nor do I promote them.

 

I just want to point out that anxiety can strike anyone at any time. Even if a person might not have been put on benzos for anxiety reasons, I can imagine that the actual w/d symptoms trigger an anxiety disorder and leads to symptoms that were originally w/d symptoms but later on just the result of a developed anxiety disorder from the ordeal, and for this reason the symptoms can often last for months or even years after the use of the drug has been stopped. But at this point I believe the symptoms are mostly anxiety symptoms that developed over time.

 

 

 

[[LJ...]]

Second of all, if you think all benzo w/d symptoms are anxiety-based, you need to do further research. Tremors can be from extreme anxiety for instance. Muscle spasms can not. Neither can skin burning, electric shocks, etc. I can go on much further.

 

 

Btw, I've experienced severe anxiety before I ever took any drug in my life. Believe me, you get all the symptoms like brain fog, muscle cramps, electric shocks, depersonalization, papilations, tight breast, feeling you're going insane and symptoms you would never think of.

Check out the list:

http://www.anxietycentre.com/anxiety-symptoms.shtml

- Electric shock feeling, body zaps

- Muscles that vibrate, jitter, tremor, or shake when used

- Muscle twitching

- Burning skin sensations, skin sensitivity

- Skin problems, infections, rashes

[[xe...]]

I think you might need to stop trusting every Google'd link you find

[[LJ...]]

I think you might need to stop trusting every Google'd link you find

 

Yeah, you're right. I should rather just trust YOUR opinion which is obviously the Gospel. What part of "I'VE EXPERIENCED SEVERE ANXIETY" don't you understand, Einstein?

But you're right. I should really stop trusting stuff that random people write on the internet, including far-fetched theories on internet forums.

[[Co...]]

Hi all,

 

I suggest that this thread returns to the topic in question: The science of benzo dependence/tolerance. This would be best served by referring to the scientific literature to back up any personal opinions.

 

We do not tolerate personal remarks and gibes. If this goes on, those involved will receive a 48 hour suspension of posting privileges.

[[LJ...]]

Hi all,

 

I suggest that this thread returns to the topic in question: The science of benzo dependence/tolerance. This would be best served by referring to the scientific literature to back up any personal opinions.

 

 

I would actually be interested to see scientific evidence that it takes the brain 6-12 months or more to "heal" after prolonged benzo use. I also wouldn't mind seeing actual clear facts that you have a time frame when you can or cannot reinstate a benzo after stopping.

[[Co...]]

Hi all,

 

I suggest that this thread returns to the topic in question: The science of benzo dependence/tolerance. This would be best served by referring to the scientific literature to back up any personal opinions.

 

 

I would actually be interested to see scientific evidence that it takes the brain 6-12 months or more to "heal" after prolonged benzo use. I also wouldn't mind seeing actual clear facts that you have a time frame when you can or cannot reinstate a benzo after stopping.

 

There is a distinct lack of research on this particular point. However, Prof. Ashton, an expert in the field, did publish, very recently, some information and thoughts on this matter here: http://www.benzo.org.uk/ashsupp11.htm

 

 

[[Pr...]]

I can imagine that the actual w/d symptoms trigger an anxiety disorder and leads to symptoms that were originally w/d symptoms but later on just the result of a developed anxiety disorder from the ordeal, and for this reason the symptoms can often last for months or even years after the use of the drug has been stopped. But at this point I believe the symptoms are mostly anxiety symptoms that developed over time.

 

I am confused by this. Are you saying that 10% symptoms (I think that's the ratio you said you believe is actual w/d) causes thousands of people to develop the remaining 90% from sheer anxiety?

 

Here is an extract from Ashton:

 

"Acute withdrawal symptoms. The most prominent effect of benzodiazepines is an anti-anxiety effect - that is why they were developed as tranquillisers. As a consequence, nearly all the acute symptoms of withdrawal are those of anxiety. They have been described in anxiety states in people who have never touched a benzodiazepine and were recognised as psychological and physical symptoms of anxiety long before benzodiazepines were discovered. However, certain symptom clusters are particularly characteristic of benzodiazepine withdrawal. These include hypersensitivity to sensory stimuli (sound, light, touch, taste and smell) and perceptual distortions (for example sensation of the floor undulating, feeling of motion, impressions of walls or floors tilting, sensation of walking on cotton wool). There also appears to be a higher incidence than usually seen in anxiety states of depersonalisation, feelings of unreality, and tingling and numbness. Visual hallucinations, distortion of the body image ("my head feels like a football/balloon"), feelings of insects crawling on the skin, muscle twitching and weight loss are not uncommon in benzodiazepine withdrawal but unusual in anxiety states."

 

I don't get it. Is it just that you do not believe the material set forth here? Because I think this addresses all the concerns you have.

 

Anecdotally speaking I can say that every last symptom I've ever had has startled me because I never saw it coming or thought it would happen to me. Several times I've been rejoicing that I was out of the woods or tapering with no symptoms and then been hit.

 

 

[[Pr...]]

I would actually be interested to see scientific evidence that it takes the brain 6-12 months or more to "heal" after prolonged benzo use. I also wouldn't mind seeing actual clear facts that you have a time frame when you can or cannot reinstate a benzo after stopping.

 

There is scientific evidence for next kin to nothing when it comes to psycho-pharmacology. Sickening. To me that is.

 

 

Edit: fixed quote box.

~ Colin.

[[BY...]]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome

wiki is also worth a read.

 

[[Pr...]]

Skimmed the wiki, BYBYMatrix.

 

The end part struck me the most. Newborns with psychosomatic symptoms?

 

"Neonatal withdrawal syndrome

 

Benzodiazepines, especially when taken during the third trimester can cause a severe benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome in the neonate with symptoms including hypotonia, and reluctance to suck, to apnoeic spells, cyanosis, and impaired metabolic responses to cold stress and seizures. The neonatal benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome has been reported to persist from hours to months after birth.[130]"

 

 

[[De...]]

Wow, I don't get on for a day or two and this thread blows up lol. I am another person who never had anxiety before benzo's, im a very laid back person by nature and don't let things bother or scare me for long. I think to say that most symptoms are purely anxiety based is irresponsible, but I understand where your coming from LJ. Like you said, this is your opinion, and we should respect it. However, it does go against the evidence from the available research and thousands of personal reports that say otherwise. Also, it should be noted that its not a coincidence that symptoms such as burning skin can become worse by taking anything that affects gaba receptors. Like stated, burning skin is NOT a response to anxiety. And anybody with an anxiety disorder will tell you that benzo anxiety is COMPLETELY different.

[[...]]

This is a silly conversation.  For those of us who have experienced benzo withdrawal, we don't need any reassurance that what we are feeling is caused by the drugs and not by anxiety.  If you have ever been awakened in the middle of the night with roaring tinnitus, or felt buzzing inside your head, or felt like your teeth were popping out, or felt electric shocks/twitching/burning on the left side of your body only and it lasted for weeks, then you know you are feeling benzo withdrawal and nothing else.  Also, anxiety is a chronic condition yet in almost every case our withdrawal symptoms gradually fade away and we go back to a normal state.  This would not happen with an anxiety disorder.

 

 

[[Ke...]]

I have to agree with the others that my withdrawals were brought on by the absintence of the Klonopin and not anxiety.  I've never had anxiety before, during or after my c/t.  I also don't believe anxiety was the cause of my vertigo, tinnitus, some loss of bladder control, photophobia, immune problems etc.   

[[LJ...]]

First of all I don't personally consider Ashton to be the only "expert" there is. I talked to top notch people from the field and they also think a lot of symptoms are mind-based. I know the average opinion on boards like these is that ALL doctors and psychiatrists(except for Ashton) don't have the slightest idea what they're doing and are obvious how evil benzos and the withdrawal symptoms are. The doctor I spoke to took Klonopin himself several times and I think most doctors did as well so at some point so they probably had to withdrawal as well at some point. They also work with thousands of patients. I spoke with the leading expert in Germany about this too.

Of course benzos cause withdrawal(severe if c/t) and have to be tapered but so do many many other medications. All meds have their pros and cons. People say that before Klonopin they never experienced anxiety. ALL people have anxiety and ALL people can develop an anxiety disorder. I agree, there are thousands of people who have problems getting off the meds but how many people take them: 100 million? Maybe just 10 million but that's a lot too. Most people don't get hellish forever lasting symptoms. All I'm saying is that maybe those with months and months of hellish symptoms DID get w/d symptoms but those triggered additional anxiety symptoms which again turned into an anxiety disorder.

I think the w/d symptoms you get during the first weeks after stopping a benzo is pure w/d but everything that goes on far beyond is mostly anxiety based.

 

My original anxiety disorder started when I started smoking pot. Before that I never had any anxiety problems. My conclusion should be: pot withdrawal is worse than heroin and takes years to recover from. I'm sure thousands of people get anxiety disorders from smoking pot but millions of others don't. My anxiety from pot was not w/d but a disorder that developed from the use. The symptoms I got from smoking pot lead to me developing an anxiety disorder.

 

Go to ant-antidepressant websites. There are thousands of people saying that it is impossible to come off of SSRIs and the withdrawal is a nightmare. The symptoms they get are identical.

 

I've never had anxiety before, during or after my c/t.    

 

My whole theory is just based at proper tapering of benzos. Going off c/t is a whole different story. I wouldn't even c/t coffee.

[[De...]]

The other people that don't have issues don't join fourmns, and no one ever said this happenes to everyone. You said some people do have issues, well we are some people.

[[...]]

LJ,

 

I don't think you're going to get anywhere in here with this argument.  The dangerous effects of gaba-ergic drugs (alcohol, benzos, and barbs) are well documented and are factually known to be the only drugs that cause death during withdrawal.  If you had ever experienced severe benzo withdrawal, you would be begging for someone to encourage you just to keep living and the old "it's all in your head" argument would probably conjure the same type of anger you are getting in this thread.  You have derived an opinion about this based on your own longstanding anxiety disorder and are projecting that on to everyone else.  The truth is, most of us do not have the type of psychological anxiety that you have been suffering with, ours is simply a physiological problem that will luckily go away forever in time. 

 

Ryan

[[Pr...]]

Please venture an opinion on the newborn withdrawal syndrome, LJ.

[[xe...]]

While I might just feel a little agitated, you are successfully actually upsetting other members LJ. Now can you please stop?

 

As long as you keep arguing with him, he's just going to keep arguing back, and no one is going to get anywhere. If one can use nameless "top-notch experts" that haven't published anything to win an argument (from around the World of course no less -- which seems quite odd to me as you had "ZERO" withdrawal symptoms, what inspired this trip around the World?,) I'd win them all.

 

PS -- If benzo w/d can CAUSE an (extremely severe!) anxiety "disorder" that never existed before, that's just as clinically real w/d as anything else. Who cares? But as already demonstrated with factual evidence, there are plenty of symptoms that aren't typical from anxiety states, yet extremely typical of benzo w/d, and occur outside of anxiety attacks.