The science of benzo dependence/tolerance

[[...]]

princezz, you may be interested in this:

 

What is being done to advance nanomedicine?

For hundreds of years, microscopes have offered scientists a window inside cells. Researchers have used ever more powerful visualization tools to extensively categorize the parts and sub-parts of cells in vivid detail. Yet, what scientists have not been able to do is to exhaustively inventory cells, cell parts, and molecules within cell parts to answer questions such as, "How many?" "How big?" and "How fast?" Obtaining thorough, reliable measures of quantity is the vital first step of nanomedicine.

 

As part of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) Common Fund [nihroadmap.nih.gov], the NIH [nih.gov] will establish a handful of nanomedicine centers. These centers will be staffed by a highly interdisciplinary scientific crew including biologists, physicians, mathematicians, engineers and computer scientists. Research conducted over the first few years will be spent gathering extensive information about how molecular machines are built. A key activity during this time will be the development of a new kind of vocabulary, or lexicon, to define biological parts and processes in engineering terms.

 

Once researchers have completely catalogued the interactions between and within molecules, they can begin to look for patterns and a higher order of connectedness than is possible to identify with current experimental methods. Mapping these networks and understanding how they change over time will be a crucial step toward helping scientists understand nature's rules of biological design. Understanding these rules will, in many years' time, enable researchers to use this information to address biological issues in unhealthy cells.

 

The availability of innovative, body-friendly nanotools will help scientists figure out how to build synthetic biological devices, such as miniature, implantable pumps for drug delivery or tiny sensors to scan for the presence of infectious agents or metabolic imbalances that could spell trouble for the body.

 

 

[[Pr...]]

yes, this is exactly what i mean pj, thanks! reading up on their centers now. 

[[De...]]

Was bored today so doing some reading on a brain structure called the lateral septum. Apparently its the brain structure that is important in inhibiting the amygdala and the fear response of the hypothalamic-pituitary-axis (system that controls stress hormone release). This study shows evidence of this..there are a ton of gaba receptors with pathways from here to the amygdala that inhibit it, along with serotonin 5ht1-a receptor, so when gaba fails in this area, stress hormones keep being released. This is stuff we already know but this shows an actual system where this is happening. Hope I'm making sense I'm very scatterbrained at the moment lol

 

 

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v36/n4/full/npp2010213a.html

[[Ho...]]

Hello - thank you for this thread - very interesting.  And while I don't understand it all technically, my eyes did rest upon one of your statements that has me very frightened.  And that was the statement that anxiety takes a long time to forever to hear.  That is quite scary to me as that is my most debilitating symptom along with depression hanging on tightly.  I am 7 months off BZ and just keep hoping for some improvement and faith that this anxiety will go away. 

    I was put on the benzo 17 years ago for anxiety due to a health crisis.  I stayed on a very small dose of .125 for those years taken only at bedtime.  I was then updosed in 2010 to 1.5 of K to help me get off of Neurontin.  Then I was quickly tapered off of the 1.5K.  I tried to reinstate on my .125 K and quickly became tolerant to it and so tapered down to .098 and jumped on sept 7, 2010.  I am just telling you this so you can see how small a dose but how long I was on it.  Do you think that will play a role in my healing?  I can't seem to really believe that I will get well.  I am filled with fear and doubts.  Finding your scientific thread has helped me in some regard but the anxiety statement has thrown me.

Thanks for listening and any other facts you might have that might help me would be appreciated.

Hoping2BFree

[[Pr...]]

Heya Hoping,

 

I was put on benzos for anxiety too, so that is a worry I can related to. You and I are very very similar. Even though I was on for 3.5 years, I spent most of that time waaaay below a therapeutic dose. The last 1.5 years, below 0.25mg.

 

Even though I am plagued with anxiety now, I take comfort in how well I was operating on that tiny amount of K, which isn't really enough to provide relief from anxiety anyway. Which means that somehow some way I must be able to operate okay on my own when this w/d thing wears off.

 

Secondly, since I have nothing better to do, I think back to my original anxiety and I look at it objectively. I personally believe that the anxiety that gets us on drugs is a combination of two things. Stress or the psychological aspect, which normal people deal with just fine. And an underlying physical ailment. Perhaps malnutrition. Blood sugar problems. Thyroid. Adrenals. When our bodies are no longer physically healthy, the psychological part is able to do a number on us. This is just a personal belief as I mentioned. But the major point is that underlying anxiety disorders are often treatable without benzos. Whether through physical means or therapy (CBT etc), neurofeedback, etc or a combination of those (which I think will be necessary in my case). Once your benzo anxiety wears off, you can start off pursuing those things but we CAN get better

 

 

[[Pr...]]

Also take a look at some of the promising new research out there. Meljo posted this elsewhere on the board: http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2011/march/anxiety.html

[[Ho...]]

Thank you Princezz - so glad to hear that.  I feel that I should be able to cope without any anxiety when I am done this as I did not have it before my medical crisis and that was such a scary time for me, plus a big operation that could/might have effected my central nervous system itself,,, and it was only after I got pericarditis from the operation that I really lost it and got bad anxiety.  And that small dose of K took me back out into the world, with a new job and a happy and contented life.  So I am going to believe what you say - I do know cognitive behavior therapy and I would have no problem doing that sometime or whatever else I need to do - I just really need to believe that I WILL HEAL!

Thank you for the encouraging response.  Best of luck to you on your journey!

Hoping2BFree

[[Pr...]]

 

computer scientists will rule the earth someday!

[[Pr...]]

Right, EXACTLY. I started and completed grad school in a whole new state where I knew no one, etc. We're good

 

And that small dose of K took me back out into the world, with a new job and a happy and contented life. 

Hoping2BFree

[Guest [Si...]]

 

computer scientists will rule the earth someday!

 

 

I know, isn't is great....?

 

Thank God for Charles Babbage.

Phewwww...

 

S#

[[Ho...]]

Princezz - I just read Meljo's article - the Big Pharma will be out against that - they'll lose some business.

[[De...]]

Thought id deactivated this thread again because I have a pet theory. Anyone think that a lot of the longer lasting symptoms are caused by low levels of transmitters? Like since our gaba didn't inhibit much in the beginning that we burned through our supplies and it takes a long time to build them back up? Maybe its not a good idea but just wanted to share. But maybe it could help explain lingering depression, anxiety, brain fog, ect.

[[Pr...]]

It's possible. I can't find the article, thought it was on this thread, but I read that serotonin (and SSRIs) play a role in w/d because they help regulate some part of the glutamate cycle. Our other transmitters and receptors could be worn out from compensating for all the stuff going on in our bodies. That might explain why I still find it impossible to taper my a/d.

[[De...]]

I'm going to try taking tryptophan to increase my serotonin production and hope that can inhibit thongs enough to allow gaba and everything else to get back to normal as it seems my remaining issues are indicative of low serotonin..anxiety, metabolic syndrome, cravings for sweets that I've never had, other stuff that went away while on Paxil. Can't hurt to try lol

[[Pr...]]

Lol, well I certainly hope not. I'd recommend starting very low in dose and working up. Even before benzo w/d I could not tolerate starting a 50mg (i think) dose of 5-htp. I know you said tryptophan but just wanted to let you know that the 5htp caused a rapid plunge of my blood pressure. I almost passed out a couple of times til I learned to ramp up the dose.

[[LJ...]]

My personal opinion is that withdrawal is mostly psychological(90%) and not actual withdrawal. I took Klonopin for about 6 years. I never increased the dose nor did I ever feel any sort of withdrawal or side-effects. I only went off because some benzophobic quack advised me to. I tapered down slowly with ZERO withdrawal symptoms and once I was off I unfortunately googled Klonopin withdrawal. After I read all the horror stories I got 500 symptoms at once within the half hour I read the stories. Do the math.

Maaaaybe I had mild withdrawal symptoms that you get from any drug, including aspirin, coffee or even chocolate after being hooked on it for a couple of years but I think all the horror stories are based on the fact that people keep reading all the stories on anti-benzo sites so they freak out. The mind can be a powerful weapon. A lot of people claim that they didn't know that you can't just c/t the drug but seriously, man, in the day and age of the internet when people google EVERYTHING that's hard to believe. When I was prescribed Klonopin I was fully aware that it might be addictive(in this case I refused to google it while taking it because I knew there would be a million horror stories out there so I did that to protect myself) just like when I started drinking alcohol I knew it can be addictive. You don't have to be Einstein to figure that out.

All stories of people withdrawing from meds(benzos, SSRIs and whatever) all seem to have the same symptoms: ANXIETY based symptoms. I bet you can even google carrot withdrawal and there will be forums of people claiming how it ruined their life. Oddly all of Heather Ashton's patients had anxiety or depression problems but the people who have taken the highest doses of benzos for the longest periods of times for some starnge reason did not storm Ashton's clinic begging for help. I'm talking about epileptic patients. I once read the story of an epileptic patient who had been on 12mg of Klonopin for something like 20 years and she tapered off with no problems at all.

I find all these "benzo withdrawal is worse than heroin" stories ridiculous and exaggerated. I personally think that people who get off benzos should find a way to deal with the actual problem: anxiety management.

I know people won't like my opinion on a website that sees benzos as pure evil but I never experienced any problems on Klonopin. I do personally think it is better to cope without meds but severe anxiety isn't really a bucket full of joy either so sometimes being on a benzo is better than living housebound with crippling anxiety. I also find it impossible that people can have withdrawal symptoms after 2 years or more and seriously doubt that there is any evidence that can prove that.

 

 

[[xe...]]

My personal opinion is that withdrawal is mostly psychological(90%) and not actual withdrawal. I took Klonopin for about 6 years. I never increased the dose nor did I ever feel any sort of withdrawal or side-effects. I only went off because some benzophobic quack advised me to. I tapered down slowly with ZERO withdrawal symptoms and once I was off I unfortunately googled Klonopin withdrawal. After I read all the horror stories I got 500 symptoms at once within the half hour I read the stories. Do the math.

Maaaaybe I had mild withdrawal symptoms that you get from any drug, including aspirin, coffee or even chocolate after being hooked on it for a couple of years but I think all the horror stories are based on the fact that people keep reading all the stories on anti-benzo sites so they freak out. The mind can be a powerful weapon. A lot of people claim that they didn't know that you can't just c/t the drug but seriously, man, in the day and age of the internet when people google EVERYTHING that's hard to believe. When I was prescribed Klonopin I was fully aware that it might be addictive just like when I started drinking alcohol. I got addicted to neither.

All stories of people withdrawing from meds(benzos, SSRIs and whatever) all seem to have the same symptoms: ANXIETY based symptoms. I bet you can even google carrot withdrwal and there will be forums of people claiming how it ruined their life. Oddly all of Heather Ashton's patients had anxiety or depression problems but the people who have taken the highest doses of benzos for the longest periods of times for some starnge reason did not storm Ashton's clinic begging for help. I'm talking about epileptic patients. I once read the story of an epileptic patient who had been on 12mg of Klonopin for something like 20 years and she tapered off with no problems at all.

I find all these "benzo withdrawal is worse than heroin" stories ridiculous and exaggerated. I personally think that people who get off benzos should find a way to deal with the actual problem: anxiety management.

I know people won't like my opinion on a website that sees benzos as pure evil but I never experienced any problems on Klonopin. I do personally think it is better to cope without meds but severe anxiety isn't really a bucket full of joy either so sometimes being on a benzo is better than living housebound with crippling anxiety. I also find it impossible that people can have withdrawal symptoms after 2 years or more and seriously doubt that there is any evidence that can prove that.

 

 

 

Wow, you are incredibly woefully ignorant on the subject.. why exactly are you here anyway?

 

Do I really want to waste my time debating what is likely a troll?... I could have a field day with this post..

[[LJ...]]

 

Wow, you are incredibly woefully ignorant on the subject.. why exactly are you here anyway?

 

Do I really want to waste my time debating what is likely a troll?... I could have a field day with this post..

 

Is there a rule that I have to have YOUR opinion or none at all? Maybe I didn't read the small print while I registered.

Enlighten me then: why aren't there any epileptic people experiencing severe w/d symptoms even though they came off high dosages of benzos after decades of use and switched to newer drugs for their treatment exactly during the period Ashton treated people in her clinic?

 

You ask why am I here? I was on benzos and seeked for information. That doesn't mean I have to be an anti-benzo apostle. I'm neither pro nor con. It always depends on each person's history. I find it just as important to look at w/d symptoms but also distinguish if some symptoms might actually be anxiety related that should be treated by a professional therapist.

 

Btw, I wrote:"I bet you can even google carrot withdrwal and there will be forums of people claiming how it ruined their life."....and right now I googled this:

http://www.wellness.com/reference/food/carrot/dosing-and-safety

"Compulsive carrot eating is a rare condition in which the patient craves carrots. Withdrawal symptoms include nervousness, cravings, insomnia, water brash, and irritability" lol

[[xe...]]

Should I do it, should I take this troll on? Very tempted to have some fun here...

[[LJ...]]

Should I do it, should I take this troll on? Very tempted to have some fun here...

 

What's your problem, dude? Do I call you a troll?

 

Btw, here are typical anxiety symptoms. Sound a lot like so-called w/d symptoms to me:

http://www.anxietycentre.com/anxiety-symptoms.shtml

[[Pa...]]

This discussion has gotten off topic, I'm going to lock this thread until the Team can review the last few posts.

[[el...]]

 

You ask why am I here? I was on benzos and seeked for information. That doesn't mean I have to be an anti-benzo apostle. I'm neither pro nor con.

 

LJ1964,

 

I'm not anti-benzo either. I've been here for 4 years, and have heard all the horror stories. But I still believe there is a time and place for benzodiazepines. That said, most people on this site and similar sites have real, physiological symptoms. If you understood the bio/chemical mechanism of the brain, and benzodiazepine's effect on that mechanism, you would understand that.

 

You have your experience. That doesn't negate others real experiences. Why do you think that just because you had little to no physical symptoms, that no one else in the world should experience them either? That's nonsensical!

 

We all have different biochemistry. The majority of people out in the world (not on these forums) will not experience major problems quitting benzodiazepines. I had little psychological symptoms. Mine were purely physical: Shakes, insomnia, weight lost, adrenalin spikes, rapid heart rate, etc. Hardly psychological. But I recovered quickly. Even most of the people that come to these forums have uneventful tapers. The unfortunate minority (the most vocal, understandably) are the ones you are most likely to hear from.  

 

Again, you have your experience. They have theirs. Count yourself lucky.      

[[el...]]

I've decided to unlock this thread. Please be respectful.

[[Co...]]

Hi LJ1964,

 

If you have not done so already, you might like to read our Mission Statement:

 

BenzoBuddies provides an inclusive and nonjudgmental mutual support environment for those who wish to withdraw from benzodiazepines. Members of our community forum exchange ideas, information, and encouragement with each other during the withdrawal process. The BenzoBuddies Team and fellow members will help you develop a sensible withdrawal schedule – one to suit your specific needs.

 

Although outside of the immediate scope of BenzoBuddies, our members are free to discuss all their medications and medical needs, and the complications that arise from poly-drug use and withdrawal.

 

BenzoBuddies is not an anti-psychiatric or an anti-doctor community. Nor are we 'anti-benzodiazepine', as such. Taking or quitting a medicine should be a personal decision made in consultation with a suitably qualified medical practitioner. BenzoBuddies seeks to provide information and support to help the benzodiazepine-dependent to safely taper off and enjoy a new benzo-free life.

[[Pr...]]

Hi LJ1964,

 

Thank you for posting your ideas. This is, after all, a thread for our pet theories.

 

I cannot argue with the experience you have had. However please note that benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome is a proven, documented physiological ailment that occurs in a certain segment of benzodiazepine users. You have been badly misinformed and that is a fact. As a person who has not experienced withdrawal and who struggles only with psychosomatic symptoms, I would ask only that you respect the pain and suffering that others in true withdrawal are experiencing.

 

*Edit: I would like to add that a good portion of the users experiencing symptoms on this board were NOT put on benzos for anxiety. Check out a few buddie blogs and you will see that many people were prescribed benzos after surgery, for pain, tinnitus, RLS, etc., having never experienced even a shred of emotional distress in all their lives. If I were to answer your question about epileptics, I would say that benzos are notoriously terrible at preventing seizures long-term as epileptics develop tolerance extremely quickly. Therefore doctors tend not to prescribe benzos for more than a few weeks for these patients. Long-term therapy consists of completely different classes of drugs (Topamax is an example of an anti-seizure medication). As you may or may not know, there is a positive correlation between duration of benzo use and likelihood of developing withdrawal syndrome.

 

Sigma, does this carrot w/d thing change your diagrams in any way? As brilliant a mind as I know you have, I doubt you've already considered that externality.

 

-L-