Which brain test detects benzo brain damage?

[[Aj...]]

Yes. I was aware of the pineal tumour.

They are quite common I believe.

 

So it was that which you had the MRA for rather than MRI?

 

I asked about an MRA couple years ago because when first got illin 1996 kept saying head too heavy, concussed and feel like not enough blood getting to my head.

Know I have torsion in arteries in neck.

Proble os they always test everything lying down...

[[ra...]]

Hey y'all,

 

I am cold-flu sick.  For all I know it is Covid, but it is not very respiratory.  Sore throat, postnasal drip, lots of body aches and fatigue  Feel like I got hit by a bus.  Ugh.

 

Reading thru this thread quickly:

 

Becks, you can't "dye" receptors.  Too small.  There is a chemical mRNA activity test for that used in every rat study on receptors, and the readouts look like strips that have been "dyed," but it is the reaction of mRNA that they are "looking at," not dyed receptors.

 

Adjusta, try not to be so pessimistic.  I am pessimistic by nature, and even I think that if there is an illness that was caused by medication induced neurological damage, there has got to be some way to push it back the right way.

 

As tooktoolong put it, "no KNOWN" treatment because nobody gives a crap.  Protracted withdrawal doesn't happen to everyone who takes benzos.  I was fooled into thinking it was rare, but then I found there are A LOT (like millions) of people who are reasonably ok as long as they stay on these drugs for years and years.  The problem is they don't get sick until they are too old for anyone to care.

 

I care.

 

NAD+ was damn close.  I still think it will offer a way out or at least significant improvement for a benzo damaged person who is NOT histamine intolerant.  Once that becomes part of the equation, it gets harder because a histamine intolerant person cannot tolerate NAD+.

 

What is wrong with us, is to me at least, very obvious at this point and I have stated it so many times I do not want to be a broken record:

 

We have too many ionotropic glutamate receptors, that fire at too low an action potential, and let too much current thru.  And my bad, new part of the record, histamine plays a huge part in it as histamine both potentiates glutamate reception, and benzo use messes up both histamine metabolism and mast cells too.

 

I learned a heck of a lot from my NAD+ experiment gone wrong, but I gotta rest for a couple weeks and heal guys.  Don't beat yourselves up too hard looking for the test that proves our individual damage or that no one has found a cure yet.  The operative word there is totally "yet."

 

I still see nerve biopsies as a viable test.  I just wish I could find ONE paper that used a nerve biopsy to test receptor function in a living human.  It was ONE paper on what NAD+ really does that gave me such hope for it.  If someone ever finds that ONE paper that uses human biopsies to test for receptors function in ANY experiment for ANY reason,, please PM it to me.

 

I am going back to the prone position.  Ugh again.

 

Hang in there.

 

Ramcon1

[[Be...]]

Ramcon,  This article says that you can stain the different receptors, but it looks like they created an antibody response first before staining them.  I remember when I trained in the medical lab that they would have tests kits that would be certain "antibodies" that would then attach to an antigen and then created a complex that could be stained and observed under a microscope.

 

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1010990404833

[[...]]

Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy can measure levels on neurotransmitters.

fMRI can look at gross brain activity which may show issues in WD.

Thermography can show similar stuff.

QEEQ can shoe cortical activity.

 

None of that helps in any way as there is no treatment that can help.

I know we don't know of anything that can help. I want a test that'll prove I've been damaged by a drug. Or damaged by something. That my complaints aren't unfounded. So someone should believe me - in my life, not on here.

Please. Is there anyone on here who can understand all this jargon people are sharing and tell me if it's worth it for me to take an MRI or other test for this purpose, and which one it should be. I'm mushed in the mind and it would help me a lot if someone could give me solid info re what test will prove something is physically wrong with me and where I could take it.

I know it won't change my symptoms. I just want proof - even for myself - that I was damaged.

Thank you.

[[to...]]

Magnetic Resonance Spectroscopy can measure levels on neurotransmitters.

fMRI can look at gross brain activity which may show issues in WD.

Thermography can show similar stuff.

QEEQ can shoe cortical activity.

 

None of that helps in any way as there is no treatment that can help.

I know we don't know of anything that can help. I want a test that'll prove I've been damaged by a drug. Or damaged by something. That my complaints aren't unfounded. So someone should believe me - in my life, not on here.

Please. Is there anyone on here who can understand all this jargon people are sharing and tell me if it's worth it for me to take an MRI or other test for this purpose, and which one it should be. I'm mushed in the mind and it would help me a lot if someone could give me solid info re what test will prove something is physically wrong with me and where I could take it.

I know it won't change my symptoms. I just want proof - even for myself - that I was damaged.

Thank you.

 

Well said, Nony.  This is exactly the point. 

[[Be...]]

The point I was trying to make is that glutamate receptors can be quantitatively measured.  How exactly they do it I'm not sure but just assumed that they stained the neurotransmitters on the slides I saw of the rat brains that showed the increase in the glutamate receptors.  They tagged those receptors with some type of stain since they showed up on the slides of the autopsied rat brains in the study I read.  All those receptors lit up like a Christmas tree.

[[ra...]]

(My brain is still VERY mushy, but I want to chime in)

 

Becks,

 

Yes.  You have got it.  Receptors can be quantitatively measured "counting" the mRNA response to an antibody test.  They trigger the DNA, and they know the code for "NMDAR-2B" or whatever subunit they are looking for.  Then the amount of mRNA corresponds to the amount of receptors in the area. They can also measure voltage and current on the microscopic level as well with "patch clamp" technology.  ALL ON THE TISSUE OF DEAD RATS.  Find me a paper that did any of that on a human nerve biopsy, and we have a place to start.

 

Nony,

 

I get that no one believes you outside this forum and you want to be believed.  You want a readily available test that can prove you have neurological damage.  There isn't one, but that does not mean you cannot get what you want.  Here is what I did:

 

I found a really good neurologist. A doctor who is involved in current research and has published several papers.  His field is MS, but it doesn't matter.  I am going to make a sweeping generalization.  It is not always true, but it is a good indicator: A doctor who has published is a scientist, a doctor who has not is a glorified encyclopedia. The "encyclopedias" have been taught: "I see this, I do that because it worked 10,000 times before."  But the doc who has published understands that what we know evolves, and is based on experiments.  Well, maybe it matters a little.  A neurologist who published about a disease has a deeper understanding of neuro-biology than a psychiatrist who published about how a med works, then again maybe he tested the med on rats with mRNA and patch clamp voltage/current testing etc.

 

So after several psychiatrists and neurologists who were all just encyclopedias, I found that special doc and I told him something like this:

 

"I have a long, sordid history with benzodiazepine dependence.  I took lorazepam for sleep every night for 12 years, and had multiple withdrawals before that.  I was clean for 3 1/2 years, but just kept getting sicker.  I am pretty sure I kindled because I used to drink alcohol for symptomatic relief, but even over a year alcohol free I still got sicker.  I told him my three main issues, anxiety and quick to attacks of hysteria, in the words of my gastro doc, "the worst IBS he has ever seen," and intense back pain and stiffness that is all chemical, unnatural pushing and squeezing that do not correspond to results of my spinal MRI.  And I still have the insomnia with which I was born, poorly managed with mirtazapine and melatonin

 

In desperation, in 2016 I reinstated on a pretty low dose of valium, and it helped for about 4 months, mostly with the hysteria and stiffness.  The IBS never went away, and then I resumed the slope of increased anxiety and stiffness issues. 

 

Now here is what I have noticed, (remember I am still talking to my doctor) over the past 2 years 2016-2018 my food sensitivities have gone thru the roof, and I have narrowed it down.  All of these things cause a sharp increase in issues.  The first food I lost was jello sweetened with aspartame (the 'A' in NMDA) then the glutamine supplement I was taking for IBS, then grains, then vegetables.  A psychiatrist I no longer see had me try Deplin 15, a high dose folate supplement.  Folate is a very power form of glutamate and I was in agony and hysterical for a week.  What do all of these things have in common?  Free glutamate and/or aspartate.

 

In the past, doctors believed that benzo damage was primarily to the GABA-A receptor, but now some researchers have suggested that it has more to do with glutamate (I brought a couple articles) and my personal experience with food seems to prove that theory out in me.  These sensitivities are not present in neurotypical people, and indicate a hyperfunction of glutamate reception. Now what can we do about it?"

 

He believed me instantly, and we have been having scientific discussions about what I might do for over 2 years.  He agrees that this is what is wrong, and knows that if we find an effective treatment we will be the first, but that does not mean it cannot happen.

 

Here are a couple of articles:

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjp/81/1/81_1_1/_article

https://sci-hub.tw/https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/PL00005172

 

If you need to be believed, that can work.  Bring the papers, talk about the evolution of your damage.  I did not need to be believed for the sake of being believed, I needed a "sounding board."  If I have an idea, I want someone who understands neuroscience as well as I do, and has a MUCH broader knowledge base than I do to poke holes in it, or tell me it is worth a shot.

 

He was the doc that looked at the paper I put at the beginning of the NAD+ thread, and the fact that they use it in "detox clinics," and his reply was something to the effect of, "This does not mean with any certainty this will help you, but with this much evidence, if I were you I would do it in a second."

 

So I took my shot, it failed, but because I am who I am I know why, and now I am going to try to figure out what to do about it.  Now that I have been working on it for a while, and because I am who I am, a doctor either believes me and climbs on board, or is so intimidated that he at the very least "opens his encyclopedia" to me.  So now I have three going on 4 people off whom I will bounce ideas (when I am feeling better) and my neuologist's opinion carries the most weight, because he knows more than I do, and he was the first to believe me.

 

I hope that helped.

 

ramcon1

[[Be...]]

I guess those chemicals that are causing the currents in the dead rats' brain that they were able to measure are still reacting.  Our bodies are made up of chemicals, and all that glutamate storming is just a chemical reaction in our bodies and brains.  I guess our brains are sort of like batteries.  I suppose the chemical reaction will finally stop at some point after we're dead.  I put in my will that I want them to autopsy my brain.  Unfortunately I won't be around to see the results, but if I end up  in another dimension after I die, maybe I can peak into this one and  I will find out.  The only thing I've ever read about LTP is that it lessens in time.  I don't understand why it hasn't happened to me though.  I think that external stress on a person keeps them hyped up and keeps those bad chemical reactions going.  I think our thoughts can calm us down and stop all that glutamate storming.  I think the reason some people get better and others don't is because they don't have much external stress on them.  I've got too much external stress on me which is why I can't heal is what I believe.  Ashton mentioned that when healing from benzo w/d to have good support, i.e. low stress.  I find those on this forum who have good relationships with people in their lives and homes or spouses to help them have more positive attitudes and heal much better.  I've got none of that since I live alone.   

[[...]]

(My brain is still VERY mushy, but I want to chime in)

 

 

Nony,

 

I get that no one believes you outside this forum and you want to be believed.  You want a readily available test that can prove you have neurological damage.  There isn't one, but that does not mean you cannot get what you want.  Here is what I did:

 

I found a really good neurologist. A doctor who is involved in current research and has published several papers.  His field is MS, but it doesn't matter.  I am going to make a sweeping generalization.  It is not always true, but it is a good indicator: A doctor who has published is a scientist, a doctor who has not is a glorified encyclopedia. The "encyclopedias" have been taught: "I see this, I do that because it worked 10,000 times before."  But the doc who has published understands that what we know evolves, and is based on experiments.  Well, maybe it matters a little.  A neurologist who published about a disease has a deeper understanding of neuro-biology than a psychiatrist who published about how a med works, then again maybe he tested the med on rats with mRNA and patch clamp voltage/current testing etc.

 

So after several psychiatrists and neurologists who were all just encyclopedias, I found that special doc and I told him something like this:

 

"I have a long, sordid history with benzodiazepine dependence.  I took lorazepam for sleep every night for 12 years, and had multiple withdrawals before that.  I was clean for 3 1/2 years, but just kept getting sicker.  I am pretty sure I kindled because I used to drink alcohol for symptomatic relief, but even over a year alcohol free I still got sicker.  I told him my three main issues, anxiety and quick to attacks of hysteria, in the words of my gastro doc, "the worst IBS he has ever seen," and intense back pain and stiffness that is all chemical, unnatural pushing and squeezing that do not correspond to results of my spinal MRI.  And I still have the insomnia with which I was born, poorly managed with mirtazapine and melatonin

 

In desperation, in 2016 I reinstated on a pretty low dose of valium, and it helped for about 4 months, mostly with the hysteria and stiffness.  The IBS never went away, and then I resumed the slope of increased anxiety and stiffness issues. 

 

Now here is what I have noticed, (remember I am still talking to my doctor) over the past 2 years 2016-2018 my food sensitivities have gone thru the roof, and I have narrowed it down.  All of these things cause a sharp increase in issues.  The first food I lost was jello sweetened with aspartame (the 'A' in NMDA) then the glutamine supplement I was taking for IBS, then grains, then vegetables.  A psychiatrist I no longer see had me try Deplin 15, a high dose folate supplement.  Folate is a very power form of glutamate and I was in agony and hysterical for a week.  What do all of these things have in common?  Free glutamate and/or aspartate.

 

In the past, doctors believed that benzo damage was primarily to the GABA-A receptor, but now some researchers have suggested that it has more to do with glutamate (I brought a couple articles) and my personal experience with food seems to prove that theory out in me.  These sensitivities are not present in neurotypical people, and indicate a hyperfunction of glutamate reception. Now what can we do about it?"

 

He believed me instantly, and we have been having scientific discussions about what I might do for over 2 years.  He agrees that this is what is wrong, and knows that if we find an effective treatment we will be the first, but that does not mean it cannot happen.

 

Here are a couple of articles:

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjp/81/1/81_1_1/_article

https://sci-hub.tw/https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/PL00005172

 

If you need to be believed, that can work.  Bring the papers, talk about the evolution of your damage.  I did not need to be believed for the sake of being believed, I needed a "sounding board."  If I have an idea, I want someone who understands neuroscience as well as I do, and has a MUCH broader knowledge base than I do to poke holes in it, or tell me it is worth a shot.

 

He was the doc that looked at the paper I put at the beginning of the NAD+ thread, and the fact that they use it in "detox clinics," and his reply was something to the effect of, "This does not mean with any certainty this will help you, but with this much evidence, if I were you I would do it in a second."

 

So I took my shot, it failed, but because I am who I am I know why, and now I am going to try to figure out what to do about it.  Now that I have been working on it for a while, and because I am who I am, a doctor either believes me and climbs on board, or is so intimidated that he at the very least "opens his encyclopedia" to me.  So now I have three going on 4 people off whom I will bounce ideas (when I am feeling better) and my neuologist's opinion carries the most weight, because he knows more than I do, and he was the first to believe me.

 

I hope that helped.

 

ramcon1

Ramcon,

I'm having a hard time reading these days so your response will  take time to get through. But you sound educated, and I'd love to know who that neurologist is you mention. Would you share, via PM?

Nony

[[Da...]]

What do you think about the following potential treatments for benzo WD? Would it be possible if you could bring these up with your neurologist?

 

The amino acid sarcosine (normalises NDMA receptors)

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=244968.msg3124839#msg3124839

 

High dose thiamine (normalises AMPA receptors)

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=245159.msg3124844#msg3124844

[[...]]

I wish I could research all this. So overwhelming for this brain.

[[...]]

(My brain is still VERY mushy, but I want to chime in)

 

Becks,

 

Yes.  You have got it.  Receptors can be quantitatively measured "counting" the mRNA response to an antibody test.  They trigger the DNA, and they know the code for "NMDAR-2B" or whatever subunit they are looking for.  Then the amount of mRNA corresponds to the amount of receptors in the area. They can also measure voltage and current on the microscopic level as well with "patch clamp" technology.  ALL ON THE TISSUE OF DEAD RATS.  Find me a paper that did any of that on a human nerve biopsy, and we have a place to start.

 

Nony,

 

I get that no one believes you outside this forum and you want to be believed.  You want a readily available test that can prove you have neurological damage.  There isn't one, but that does not mean you cannot get what you want.  Here is what I did:

 

I found a really good neurologist. A doctor who is involved in current research and has published several papers.  His field is MS, but it doesn't matter.  I am going to make a sweeping generalization.  It is not always true, but it is a good indicator: A doctor who has published is a scientist, a doctor who has not is a glorified encyclopedia. The "encyclopedias" have been taught: "I see this, I do that because it worked 10,000 times before."  But the doc who has published understands that what we know evolves, and is based on experiments.  Well, maybe it matters a little.  A neurologist who published about a disease has a deeper understanding of neuro-biology than a psychiatrist who published about how a med works, then again maybe he tested the med on rats with mRNA and patch clamp voltage/current testing etc.

 

So after several psychiatrists and neurologists who were all just encyclopedias, I found that special doc and I told him something like this:

 

"I have a long, sordid history with benzodiazepine dependence.  I took lorazepam for sleep every night for 12 years, and had multiple withdrawals before that.  I was clean for 3 1/2 years, but just kept getting sicker.  I am pretty sure I kindled because I used to drink alcohol for symptomatic relief, but even over a year alcohol free I still got sicker.  I told him my three main issues, anxiety and quick to attacks of hysteria, in the words of my gastro doc, "the worst IBS he has ever seen," and intense back pain and stiffness that is all chemical, unnatural pushing and squeezing that do not correspond to results of my spinal MRI.  And I still have the insomnia with which I was born, poorly managed with mirtazapine and melatonin

 

In desperation, in 2016 I reinstated on a pretty low dose of valium, and it helped for about 4 months, mostly with the hysteria and stiffness.  The IBS never went away, and then I resumed the slope of increased anxiety and stiffness issues. 

 

Now here is what I have noticed, (remember I am still talking to my doctor) over the past 2 years 2016-2018 my food sensitivities have gone thru the roof, and I have narrowed it down.  All of these things cause a sharp increase in issues.  The first food I lost was jello sweetened with aspartame (the 'A' in NMDA) then the glutamine supplement I was taking for IBS, then grains, then vegetables.  A psychiatrist I no longer see had me try Deplin 15, a high dose folate supplement.  Folate is a very power form of glutamate and I was in agony and hysterical for a week.  What do all of these things have in common?  Free glutamate and/or aspartate.

 

In the past, doctors believed that benzo damage was primarily to the GABA-A receptor, but now some researchers have suggested that it has more to do with glutamate (I brought a couple articles) and my personal experience with food seems to prove that theory out in me.  These sensitivities are not present in neurotypical people, and indicate a hyperfunction of glutamate reception. Now what can we do about it?"

 

He believed me instantly, and we have been having scientific discussions about what I might do for over 2 years.  He agrees that this is what is wrong, and knows that if we find an effective treatment we will be the first, but that does not mean it cannot happen.

 

Here are a couple of articles:

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jjp/81/1/81_1_1/_article

https://sci-hub.tw/https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/PL00005172

 

If you need to be believed, that can work.  Bring the papers, talk about the evolution of your damage.  I did not need to be believed for the sake of being believed, I needed a "sounding board."  If I have an idea, I want someone who understands neuroscience as well as I do, and has a MUCH broader knowledge base than I do to poke holes in it, or tell me it is worth a shot.

 

He was the doc that looked at the paper I put at the beginning of the NAD+ thread, and the fact that they use it in "detox clinics," and his reply was something to the effect of, "This does not mean with any certainty this will help you, but with this much evidence, if I were you I would do it in a second."

 

So I took my shot, it failed, but because I am who I am I know why, and now I am going to try to figure out what to do about it.  Now that I have been working on it for a while, and because I am who I am, a doctor either believes me and climbs on board, or is so intimidated that he at the very least "opens his encyclopedia" to me.  So now I have three going on 4 people off whom I will bounce ideas (when I am feeling better) and my neuologist's opinion carries the most weight, because he knows more than I do, and he was the first to believe me.

 

I hope that helped.

 

ramcon1

Ram,

If I bring those two papers you included here to my doctor, what am I proving? Way too hard to read all this stuff. Thanks.

[[cs...]]

Hi Becks,

 

This might help.

 

Nanotools will help map brain activity both spatially and temporally, ie plasticity changes over time and across brain regions.  This will help demonstrate what’s going on.

 

The full article is available here.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/nn4012847#

 

There’s additional research in this area available as well

 

 

Nanomaterials is also a subset of this area of study.  Part 2 of this article discusses imaging nanotools and othe nano-“things”

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2018.00953/full

 

Here’s another

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/adfm.201700489

 

Hope this helps.

=====

 

Nanotools for neuroscience and brain activity mapping.

Alivisatos AP, Andrews AM, Boyden ES, Chun M, Church GM, Deisseroth K, Donoghue JP, Fraser SE, Lippincott-Schwartz J, Looger LL, Masmanidis S, McEuen PL, Nurmikko AV, Park H, Peterka DS, Reid C, Roukes ML, Scherer A, Schnitzer M, Sejnowski TJ, Shepard KL, Tsao D, Turrigiano G, Weiss PS, Xu C, Yuste R, Zhuang X.

ACS Nano. 2013 Mar 26;7(3):1850-66. doi: 10.1021/nn4012847. Epub 2013 Mar 20. Review.

 

 

Full text

ACS Nano. 2013 Mar 26;7(3):1850-66. doi: 10.1021/nn4012847. Epub 2013 Mar 20.

Nanotools for neuroscience and brain activity mapping.

 

Alivisatos AP1, Andrews AM, Boyden ES, Chun M, Church GM, Deisseroth K, Donoghue JP, Fraser SE, Lippincott-Schwartz J, Looger LL, Masmanidis S, McEuen PL, Nurmikko AV, Park H, Peterka DS, Reid C, Roukes ML, Scherer A, Schnitzer M, Sejnowski TJ, Shepard KL, Tsao D, Turrigiano G, Weiss PS, Xu C, Yuste R, Zhuang X.

Author information

Abstract

Neuroscience is at a crossroads. Great effort is being invested into deciphering specific neural interactions and circuits. At the same time, there exist few general theories or principles that explain brain function. We attribute this disparity, in part, to limitations in current methodologies. Traditional neurophysiological approaches record the activities of one neuron or a few neurons at a time. Neurochemical approaches focus on single neurotransmitters. Yet, there is an increasing realization that neural circuits operate at emergent levels, where the interactions between hundreds or thousands of neurons, utilizing multiple chemical transmitters, generate functional states. Brains function at the nanoscale, so tools to study brains must ultimately operate at this scale, as well. Nanoscience and nanotechnology are poised to provide a rich toolkit of novel methods to explore brain function by enabling simultaneous measurement and manipulation of activity of thousands or even millions of neurons. We and others refer to this goal as the Brain Activity Mapping Project. In this Nano Focus, we discuss how recent developments in nanoscale analysis tools and in the design and synthesis of nanomaterials have generated optical, electrical, and chemical methods that can readily be adapted for use in neuroscience. These approaches represent exciting areas of technical development and research. Moreover, unique opportunities exist for nanoscientists, nanotechnologists, and other physical scientists and engineers to contribute to tackling the challenging problems involved in understanding the fundamentals of brain function.

PMID: 23514423 PMCID: PMC3665747 DOI: 10.1021/nn4012847

 

[[Be...]]

Thanks, cs.  I'm sure those brain scans will cost a fortune when they come to the medical market.

[[cs...]]

Thanks, cs.  I'm sure those brain scans will cost a fortune when they come to the medical market.