Keto / Carnivore update

[[Le...]]

Ugh, this is awful. I'm going to completely cut them out again and report back if my sleep returns...

 

Seriously praying here.

[[Le...]]

A big part of me wishes I would have never tried this. I've seen evidence that keto can cause central nervous system fatigue and that is exactly what im fighting. But it seems I'm stuck in it now or I won't sleep.

[[Da...]]

Hope you resolve your issues soon DG. Sounds pretty damn rough sleeping so little. The next step is this brain MRI Thursday. I watched an informative YouTube video about MRI's and identifying MS on them. Some young MD gave a little powerpoint lecture. Just preparing for when I read my own MRI because you best believe I'm getting a copy on DVD and popping that bitch in the second I get home. I realized that brain lesions are not even my biggest fear, but any signs of atrophy are. Any brain atrophy will be devastating. I do believe I can reverse it though if there is a little so not all hope will be lost but it will probably put me in a deep depression and reduce my overall morale. I already lack enthusiasm. I want to get excited for life again and feel good about things and that will be hard to do with any depressing news about my brain. I took benzos, gabapentin, phenibut, suboxone, memantine and stacks of other substances like tianeptine, peptides, other shit, and more shit, all at the same time. Not sure if that put any holes in my brain. Seems only God's grace can save me but I don't really have much faith in God or gods. Maybe I will just end up getting lucky like I always have but I feel like my luck is running out. I avoided getting this MRI this long for a reason. I just hoped that anything bad that happened while pollydrugging would just reverse and I'd heal and then the MRI would be normal. Unless the cocktails of stuff I took were safe or even helped me but that seems like wishful thinking. I didn't abuse anything, I just took alot of different stuff but it was so stupid and I wish hadn't now. I can't assume the worst case scenario either and think that I melted my brain into a chocolate bar. A normal MRI seems like a miracle from where I sit.

 

Mamoot,

 

I feel for you man. I think a lot of this is that you're depressed from using benzos, phenibut, Gabapentin etc. It happens to a ton of people. Regardless if there is atrophy (I kind of doubt it), the brain has a huge amount of redundancy built in for a reason. There are millions of distinct neurons that can perform the same function and people can learn to perform tasks even when large chunks of the brain region usually assigned those tasks are missing.

 

I actually think one of the biggest risks of withdrawal is that people become so uncomfortable, both psychologically and physiologically, that they are willing to do some pretty stupid stuff just to get some relief. I think in your case you feel like your brain is broken and you want to fix it as quickly as possible using experimental compounds. You probably have more pharmacological knowledge than 99% of the population, so it's not entirely irrational to believe you can do this. But I don't think compounds like that actually exist, and if they did, they would be 10 billion dollar drugs for the company that made them, and they certainly would not have failed clinical trials.

 

I'm guilty of doing things like this myself. I had very bad stomach issues early on in withdrawal (lost 30lbs in 3 months). Any amount of food in my stomach near bedtime was very bothersome to me due to extreme gastritis and a very severe (but temporary) irritable bowel syndrome (where stomach problems cause much more discomfort than you would expect due to nerve problems). Whenever I had stuff in my stomach, it seemed like I couldn't sleep, and I was already sleeping 2-3 hours per night. Even though I had read that you essentially cannot die from lack of sleep, I didn't believe it. I also believed that if I didn't sleep, I would never heal. So I would take laxatives to get rid of all the stuff in my digestive system. It did work for awhile, but you don't want to use laxatives on a consistent basis. I did stick with very low doses and mostly used them safely, but even drugs that are safe for 99% are not safe for many of some during withdrawal. I began to get symptoms of extreme weakness when I used the laxatives (like I could barely stand up). After I got this a couple times, despite reducing the dose, I mostly stopped using them. But my stomach was still very bothersome and I still had extreme persistent insomnia. I used them once more and had a really bad incident of weakness and some heart problems. For about 24 hours after I used them, my heart rate was very high and blood pressure was very low. That scared me enough to just stop using all drugs. Keep in mind that I took a very low dose of a completely safe laxative. My hypersensitive nervous system could just not handle any foreign substances. I had another incident with a beta blocker which I won't get into, but it was a similar situation. I was desperate for relief of symptoms and did stupid stuff to try and get temporary relief. Our ability to think clearly is quite impaired in withdrawal, which is why I think it is so dangerous. You almost need someone to guide your through everyday life, since your mind is not quite up to the task. This is how I felt, anyway.

 

The reality is that your brain will heal if you just leave it alone. There is not really any shortcut. If you can sleep, exercise, socialize and keep learning, you should be fine, in time. That is the most difficult part: waiting for relief. As I said before, you're the product of billions of years of evolution, where the biology of our ancestors solved millions of problems that allowed them to survive in very hostile environments. Evolution did not stop with you and your body too is designed for optimal survival and reproduction, which includes reconstitution of injured areas and restoration of function even after severe injury. Your body will do it's thing if you let it. All you have to do is provide the appropriate conditions.

[[Da...]]

A big part of me wishes I would have never tried this. I've seen evidence that keto can cause central nervous system fatigue and that is exactly what im fighting. But it seems I'm stuck in it now or I won't sleep.

 

Lena,

 

It's true that some people just do not have the appropriate genetics to function well on keto. Seems like I am one of those people too. But keto did help me quite a bit. My problem was that I had quite a bit of muscle tension and general restlessness. This seemed to be due to a problem with carbs, and keto really helped with that. It is possible to make quite a bit of progress on keto. I increased my exercise tolerance massively and reduced tension and anxiety quite a bit. Keto provided a big relief for me, especially for my stomach, so I'm really grateful I tried it. I had major stomach problems from the benzo use for a long time. On Klonopin, for many years I could not handle any amount of meat and fat. I could eat a couple eggs per day and that was it. That was the entirety of my protein and fat from real food. Now I can eat double that for every meal of the day. On the benzo, I actually thought I'd done irreparable damage to my stomach and that I would never be able to eat a normal diet again, so I'm very happy to discover it's possible. I was pretty depressed about not being able to eat normally for so long. It was difficult and embarrassing going out with friends and family for meals etc. Thank god that's over.

 

If you cannot function on keto, can you slowly reintroduce carbs, Lena? I found I cannot eat them later in the day. I am going to try eating them first thing upon waking and see if that avoids the problem of crystal meth-style insomnia and midnight jogs in -20 degree weather, as much as I enjoy those 

[[Ma...]]

DG. I had stomach issues as well right before I got injured and started taking all this crap. I was diagnosed with gastritis, an antral and duodenal ulcer. It was excruciating. It felt like something was gnawing the inside of my stomach. I started juicing raw cabbage juice and it helped heal it. I read a study that was done using cabbage juice and gave it a try and it worked. My GI doctor is actually the asshole who prescribed me Klonopin, gabapentin, baclofen, hydroxyzine, tramadol, and a few GI drugs. He ran a pill mill in his office. He literally owned is own private pharmacy. It was as shady as it gets. I'm not even sure if I trust his diagnosis with the ulcers now. This is what happens when you have medicaid I guess, which is state insurance. I don't work so this is what I have, and I'm glad I have it. My mistake was not going to a university hospital exclusively for everything. Maybe at the time I went to this GI doctor because I knew he would prescribe me anything I wanted to self medicate my fear and depression from the injury I mentioned. Because I was terrified at the time that it would not improve and it made me suicidal before I even took benzos. I started taking benzos because I was suicidal over the injury without realizing that they would eventually make this problem much worse at one point. I'm lucky to be alive. So, my damaged psyche caused all this self experimentation with RC's. I never took it too far though but I had some crazy stacks for brief periods of time that probably were toxic to my body.

 

So, you kind of doubt it. I guess I have my doubts too but expect it to come out normal too. It's just that what if shit that scares me. In order to get atrophy you may need to use this stuff for years or longer than I have. Lots of BB's have gotten scans. Long term users who were polydrugged and their scans come out normal, so will see. I think some of these compounds were truly neuroprotective. Especially some of these peptides. I know you don't buy into that but it is a thought that comforts me right now. At the same time, I worry if my brain grew tentacles and denticles I took so many things. So much for atrophy, the doctor may tell me I'm a mutant and call the CIA and lock me up in the hospital and perform tests on me the rest of my life.

 

I think you will figure out what to do. I'm at a loss right now with all this food stuff. I'm not exactly feeling too great eating all this stuff sometimes. I tend to over do the nut butters though. You can easily overdo the fat in this diet and I'm doing that. I'm gaining weight and feel like shit most days recently. It's just all this stress from waiting to find out these what if's. Tomorrow is the MRI. I'm just glad I don't have to wait anymore.

 

I just weighed myself, naked after taking a shit and I weigh exactly 166.6 lbs on the scale. I mentioned before that I keep seeing the number 66 or 6's everywhere. Like I notice all the time when my phone is at 66%, when it is 6:06, etc. I'm only left to think that it means that I'm a beast, and that I will be okay I guess. It's why I never get sick too because beasts don't get colds or viruses. Not sure why I lost a degree in body temperature, unless hell is freezing over.

 

[[Le...]]

I think getting through the adaption period is just what I need to do and then hopefully I will be okay. People tend to have issues for a number of months when transitioning to carnivore and I only went almost two... so I’m just going to go back. I can’t handle the insomnia. I’m sticking with carnivore. Salmon and beef for me...

 

So do you sleep better when you don’t eat carbs then? And then you get hit with that fatigue after 3 days?

[[Le...]]

My sleep is already starting to come back

[[Da...]]

I'm very tempted to join you Lena. This has been a brutal month long wave.

 

Right now it seems I need a certain amount of carbs every once in awhile just to feel ok. If I eat pure meat I feel bad and if I eat too much carbs I don't sleep and feel bad. I've tried 15g of raisins every morning, but that is too much. I will try 15g every other morning. Whenever I run into trouble I just go back to carnivore for a day or two and then I am fine.

 

Glad your sleep is coming back. I had one good night, one okay night, and then one brutal night (last night). I will go carnivore for the rest of the day and then begin the experiment more judiciously when I feel better.

[[Le...]]

Welp, I’m praying for us both. I slept 7 hours last night in broke segments but I’m very thankful for it. But omg I’m not feeling well. Still going to refrain from carbs. I’ll report back with progress.

[[Da...]]

Welp, I’m praying for us both. I slept 7 hours last night in broke segments but I’m very thankful for it. But omg I’m not feeling well. Still going to refrain from carbs. I’ll report back with progress.

 

Lena, if you begin feeling too bad, I would encourage you to eat some carbs. I know when I was feeling terrible and ate carbs I got fairly quick relief. I don't think the diet is quite as dangerous as some nutritionists claim, but I don't doubt it could cause problems. If you are feeling bad under circumstances you would normally feel pretty good (like with 7 hours sleep), that seems like a sign something is wrong and I think the diet would be a number 1 suspect. The carnivore advocates will say to push through the pain etc. but the discomfort is your body telling you that it is not functioning well, whatever the cause is. A carnivore diet is a useful tool, but remember that it would have been impossible at almost any time in our evolutionary history, so you would not necessarily expect it to be optimal.

[[Le...]]

I’m really not doubting that that is good advice, but I am just going to stick to what I’m doing right now and see what happens. I want to give it a really fair try. I’m going to try to stick with it for at least 6 months.

 

So you can see if it goes horribly for me lol. And I can see if your body ever normalizes with the reintroduction of carbs.

[[Da...]]

Lena,

 

That sounds more than fair. How about we make a wager: last one to die or first one to heal wins .

 

What is at stake, we will decide once I win 

[[Ja...]]

Hey all I just joined BB and wanted to share a video that explains the science of keto in relation to benzo withdrawal syndrome.  I found that intermittent fasting and keto very helpful in aiding my recovery.

[[Le...]]

Haha! Deal

[[Le...]]

Update! Day four with no carbs and I’ve had a good day. Took a two hour nap and being pretty active

 

Yesterday was such a Hell day but I’m glad I got over the hump.

 

I’m still really craving carbs though. Before I had the rice I had 0 carb cravings and meat was the tastiest thing ever to me lol.

[[Da...]]

Lena, can you describe your symptoms when initially going back on carnivore? It seems to hit me after the second day, but I definitely sleep better when eating purely meat. Then things go a bit sideways. I have not really tried to push through it, but I also don't remember feeling that bad when I initially began the carnivore diet. I'm trying to figure out if I should push through or not. It actually feels sort of dangerous (CNS-wise), so not really certain I should try. I don't quite know why it should be dangerous...

 

My pattern has basically been to experiment by 1. Eating a small amount of carbs  2. Reaction is bad  3. Eat carnivore for around 24 hours to recover and get back to normal  4. Repeat.

 

I still haven't found the right amount of carbs. Or even the right kind. As I said before, I've tried most fruits, rice, bread, oatmeal, nuts, avocados etc. All the things you would think might be ok. It seems like my nervous system sensitivity changes depending on whether I have had a reaction recently, too, so it's almost like trying to hit a target on a moving train while on another train going the opposite direction. I have had periods of stabilization, but they have been fairly fleeting. The longest may have been a couple weeks. Usually this is when I was eating keto, but now I cannot even really take some keto foods without reaction. Staples like nuts, avocados etc seem to cause a reaction. I think if I can just stabilize things, then reintroduce carbs very slowly and carefully, my nervous system may be more receptive. Of course "just stabilizing things" is easier said than done.

 

I was playing dodgeball with my team just a couple months ago and it felt like I would not miss another game, but I haven't played since. Although even then, I was not quite stable. But maybe it is just the nature of the injury. My acute and post-acute stages have been relatively severe, even by benzo buddies standards, and I am only 11 months off.

 

Glad to hear you are sleeping better Lena. I have had a couple better nights lately, eating mostly carnivore. I am really being cautious with the carbs this time.

 

 

Jack,

 

Thanks for the video. You've definitely come to the right thread. I can personally attest that both keto and intermittent fasting have helped quite a bit, when I've been able to maintain them. Food reactions and sleep problems have made that difficult, however. Do you know anything about what causes the food sensitivities? I have heard speculation it may be microbiome-related, but haven't heard of anyone finding a definitive solution.

[[Ma...]]

It probably is gut related and epigenetic. By going back to the carnivore diet you are just killing off your gut flora all over again. I suggest eating fermented foods and super small amounts of sweet potatoes and try to titrate up with them. You need a few starchy carbs I think to rebuild your gut but start small. Don't remember if you tried this yet but this is what I'm thinking.

[[Ma...]]

You need to just do a keto diet again and stick to it and carefully add fermented foods, slowly and carefully add some starchy carbs because they create some unique type of gut flora. I need to slowly addthem soon. You need foods like asparagus because they have inulin which will feed any new gut flora. So eat asparagus as well

[[Le...]]

Yes I agree with mamoot, I think it’s about consistency. Either go carnivore all the way or stick with carbs consistently

[[Le...]]

Sorry I don’t have time right now to answer everything you asked, I will come back when I can and do so

[[Le...]]

Started doing horribly... think I’ll go back to consistent carbs. Not sure yet - I’ll update. I’m going to eat strictly safe carbs - no histamine, FODMAPS, lectins...

[[Le...]]

Yep I’m going back starting tomorrow. Data_Guy we can discuss which carbs are best haha and I’ll update you on my progress

[[Da...]]

As far as I'm concerned, the only good carb is a dead carb.

 

Luckily, most of the ones I eat are dead. Very rarely will I eat a plant that is still in the ground.

 

I honestly have no idea which ones work best, and I've been trying for something like 7 weeks solid. So far raisins cause the least amount of trouble, rice caused the most problems and carrots were not too friendly either. Basically I have no good advice lol

 

All I can say is try something first thing in the morning once you feel you've shaken off the morning fog and have a good idea how you're feeling, this way you can tell what effect it is having on you from a stable baseline. Then write everything down and repeat if needed. I find 24 hours of carnivore eating gets me back to normal when I run into problems. An amazingly small amount of carbs had a pretty strong effect to begin with. I'll be interested to hear your experience, Lena. Good luck!

[[Da...]]

Well I hope everyone is alive and well. I've got a non-depressing update for once. I seem to have finally become able to tolerate a limited amount of carbs on a consistent basis and have been able to stabilize my sleep levels (for the most part). Persistence pays off! I'm finally sleeping around 4 hours per night again, but still trying to strengthen and ingrain the sleep pattern. I've slept close to four hours for a few nights in a row and started getting better sleeps more frequently a couple weeks ago.

 

As for the carbs, I am able to eat around 30g per day now. The amount I can tolerate seems to vary with my sleep levels, and I still get pretty overstimulated if I eat too many, but I have tried eating a bit more with some success. The most I have done is 4 servings in one days of blueberries, cherries and raisins (max total of around 400 calories). This can make me pretty uncomfortable during the day, but as long as I eat them 12 hours or more before bed, I find I'm fine and able to get roughly the usual amount of sleep. It also helps with exercise during the day.

 

Another thing is that it actually seems like I need carbs to sleep now. If I do not eat enough, relaxation slides into lethargy and then depression. The hint I am slipping into a negative affective state is that I get a sort of burning feeling near the back of my brain that is mildly uncomfortable, as well as a sort of heavy inertial feeling in my body and jaw, as if my teeth are clacking together on their own in an uncomfortable way. It's hard to describe and not really a feeling I've ever noticed prior to withdrawal. Anyway, if this state gets too advanced without eating some carbs (generally about 10g will do the job), I usually cannot sleep.

 

I've also been able to add more variety to my diet now that I can tolerate carbs. I've incorporated: hemp seeds, pecans, walnuts, pumpkin seeds, coconut, and avocados. No grains yet, but I plan to add those after I have made a few more gains in sleep and then allowed those to be consolidated. I really do not want to experience a relapse into insomnia again, if possible. (Please be possible!)

 

I hope everyone is having equal success

[[Le...]]

My reactions were so bad I just quit eating carbs... been like 6 days since I’ve had them. It’s really encouraging to hear you’ve successfully transitioned. Thanks so much for the update.