Can anyone make sense of this to explain to a layperson?

[[cs...]]

Fantastic work.  Your contribution, dm123, has had a huge impact on my understanding.  Through this process, my awareness of what is happening has been akin to observing an image in a highly fractured mirror.  There is a sense of what the image looks like but the cracks distort it so much as to make a full appreciation impossible.  Your contribution has helped eliminate so many of those distorting cracks and vastly improved my sense of the complex interactions occurring in our bodies.  Perseverance, faultandfracture and others have helped me too and it is just this type of community of knowledge that may see us through to, perhaps, an approach that brings the healing we all hope for.

 

-RST

 

Hi RST, that's a great way of putting it.  Hopefully, we can mend the mirror through time and effective therapies. 

 

I'm working on the nitromemantines.  They are a very interesting drug, and have clear therapeutic applications in the area of severe neurodegenerative disease.  The main question for us, is can they be therapeutic for benzodiazaphine withdrawal, protracted withdrawal, and in your case, neuropathic pain.  As you know, they have been found to be somewhat effective for very very severe diabetic neuropathy at higher doses than are used for neurodegenerative diseases (like Alzheimer's). 

 

They fit into the benzodiazaphine model in two areas:

1. The "glutamatergic to action potential dynamics" link

2. The "glutamatergic to neurogenesis " link

 

 

It's very interesting that neurodegenerative diseases represent the complete opposite of neurogenesis, i.e.,  neurodegenerative diseases are a manifestation of neuronal cell destruction, in part caused by sensitized and overly active extrasynaptic NMDARs.  As you know memantine and nitromemantine are effective at queiting down excessively active NMDARs, and in the case of physiological and pathological neurodegenerative disease, the drugs target those very receptors.  The drugs themselves bind indiscriminately to specific binding sites on the NMDARs, but are only physiologically "active" when the receptor becomes very sensitized.  This is ideal for neurodegenerative disease. Maintain normal NMDAR function, and only attenuate it when it becomes excessive.

 

In the case of neurodegenerative disease, it boils down to loss of neurons (destruction), as opposed to the stable positive  rate of neurogenesis that we see in healthy brains.  In this respect, neurodegenerative disease can be seen as a slowing of the net rate of neurogenesis, and in specific regions of the brain, the rate actually becoming negative .  Neurogenesis not only serves to replace neuronal cell loss, but also facilitates the integration of these new neurons into the neural circuit fabric, creating new connections and synapses with neighboring neurons.  This, in effect , is the brain's way of acclimating to new challenges and adapting to both positive and negative stressors in a constructive fashion.  Ultimately, neurogenesis results in a brain that is stress resilient, and adaptive to both life's challenges and joys. Neurodegenerative disease is the very opposite. 

 

Neurodegenerative diseases are particularly potent because they also manifest in areas of the brain that are not highly regenerative (i.e., not the Hippocampus/DG, SVG, SVZ, olfactory bulb, etc).  Hence the neurons cannot be replaced by new neurons.  The drugs effectively slow this rate of destruction down, preserving the remaining neurons, and interestingly allow them to normalize relative to plasticity (i.e., the neurons can experience increased spine density and dendric length, etc....)

 

We, as survivors of the benzodiazaphine onslaught, fall somewhere in the middle of this spectrum, falling short of healthy rates of neurogenesis, but not suffering from pathological neurodegeneration.....  So the effectiveness of these anti-neurodegenerative  drugs in this context, is a bit murky.

 

 

More to come.....

[[Te...]]

Very interesting, dm123!!! How wonderful to have someone on BB who is doing tireless and excellent research!!!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[[Te...]]

Hi, dm123,

 

I'm always concerned about blood pressure because that has been the most terrible of all my symptoms. It turned out that the ACV did not work. But I've always wondered about benzo buddies having terrible times with blood pressure, and then suddenly it rights itself. They're able to get off pills. What in the world flips the switch? What causes the blood pressure to just drop?

 

Also, I'd like to know why it is that when I feel a "down" feeling in my frontal lobe, I know that my blood pressure has lessened. That area is where I feel the adrenaline, also. What does the frontal lobe have to do with benzos?

 

Just wondering, and thanks so much!!

[Guest [Sk...]]

Hi, dm123,

 

I'm always concerned about blood pressure because that has been the most terrible of all my symptoms. It turned out that the ACV did not work. But I've always wondered about benzo buddies having terrible times with blood pressure, and then suddenly it rights itself. They're able to get off pills. What in the world flips the switch? What causes the blood pressure to just drop?

 

Also, I'd like to know why it is that when I feel a "down" feeling in my frontal lobe, I know that my blood pressure has lessened. That area is where I feel the adrenaline, also. What does the frontal lobe have to do with benzos?

 

Just wondering, and thanks so much!!

 

perhaps  it is connectted to this

so many things play into this withdrawal journey

and we all have very different systems and have been affected differently

just a maybe to check out or consider

 

https://healinghistamine.com/histamine-and-your-heart/

[[Te...]]

Skyblue, thanks for that information! I've started to eat about the same foods every day, trying to calm my bp down. It's really low histamine. Seeing if that helps. And also doing much less exercise. That would make my bp go up, too.

 

But I wonder, too, about others on BB who, after months or years of taking bp pills and having high bp (lostdog is one of them - his bp would shoot up to 250) suddenly went down to normal and got off all their pills. I don't know if he had a low-histamine diet or even knew of such a thing. There got to be some mechanism involved in the body.

[[Sw...]]

Terry38, I agree with you the mechanism that keeps the blood pressure stable is illusive.  Even if we could somehow capture that "what ever it is" would our body respond in the manner that we are looking for ~ stable healthy blood pressure.  Mine is nowhere near the volatility that yours is but is still troublesome, varies depending of the level of negative stimulation (whatever it may be) or "stress" and sometimes I have no idea what could make it 150/85 then 10 minutes later 120/60.

 

Right now I am looking at a combination of histamine issues and water/hydration/electrolytes as possible keys to this volatility.  Then again I could be wrong.    Still searching.

 

Sweet pea

 

[[cs...]]

Hi, dm123,

 

I'm always concerned about blood pressure because that has been the most terrible of all my symptoms. It turned out that the ACV did not work. But I've always wondered about benzo buddies having terrible times with blood pressure, and then suddenly it rights itself. They're able to get off pills. What in the world flips the switch? What causes the blood pressure to just drop?

 

Also, I'd like to know why it is that when I feel a "down" feeling in my frontal lobe, I know that my blood pressure has lessened. That area is where I feel the adrenaline, also. What does the frontal lobe have to do with benzos?

 

Just wondering, and thanks so much!!

 

Hi Terry,

 

As some of the previous posters mentioned, High BP can be due to a number of different things .

We do know that during withdrawal or taper, we expect pulse and/or diastolic BP readings to rise up as the body acclimates to the new dosage.  Since you are long past that acute wd,and tapering phase, it's most not likely due to this.    This type of BP anomaly  is due to transient overactivity in the sympathetic nervous system. 

 

 

A.About your frontal lobe sensation:

 

In the neural circuits paper we will learn that inhibitory signaling plays a large part in maintaining the physiological functional output of the circuit.  Many of these circuits are involuntary circuits like those that control respiration/breathing,  I haven't analyzed the neural circuits that control other autonomic functions like BP, but I would guess that they are also highly dependent on a properly functioning inhibitory control system (ie, GABAergic signaling).  Many of these neural circuits originate in the cortex , pass through the striatal regions, go through the basal ganglia , and then hit the ventral or dorsal thalamus and brainstem,  to control downstream physiological functions.  As we will see in the neural circuits paper, a lot of this physiological function depends on a proper working inhibitory system.  The striatal tissue is loaded with medium spiny neurons or MSNs, which were Introduced in module 3 of the neural circuits paper (see earlier post).  These are important because they are hub neurons that collect inputs from many different brain regions, and sum up all the inputs out their projections into deeper (lower) parts of the brain.  The projections of MSNs are inhibitory and release GABA.  My point of all of this is that the sensation in your frontal lobe (cortex) might be a part of a larger autonomic neural circuit that's modulating your sympathetic nervous system and BP, and all neural circuits are heavily dependent on inhibitory signaling.  We don't know if your inhibitory signaling is still nonoptimal. 

 

We did discuss the autonomic nervous system in an earlier post, when we discussed ACV, etc.. As you know, the brainstem controls blood pressure, and things like stress (perceived in higher regions of the brain like the cortex and amygdala) provide signals to the brain stem so that blood pressure is acclimated to the stress.  So just because you have high BP, it doesn't necessarily mean there is autonomic dysfunction in the brain stem.  Perceived stress by the higher regions of the brain, like the cortex can affect BP, and it could be the inhibitory signaling along the neural circuit is not working optimally.

 

 

B. Aging:

 

The other area to consider is aging in general reduces the elasticity and responsiveness of the endothelial smooth muscle of the arteries.  In effect the arteries become less elastic, and therefore less adaptable to modulating BP in the events like stress, drastic temperature change, and as you've mentioned vigorous exercise.  Eventually, as we get much older, the arteries and vascular tissue becomes less and less flexible and even at rest BP remains elevated.  Moderate  exercise, providing your MD has given you clearance, is actually beneficial in reducing blood pressure because over time the blood vessels become more resilient to stress,,and at rest (i.e., no physiological stress) BP drops.  This is a physiological adaptability response to moderate exercise.

 

 

C. Diet:

 

In addition, the earlier poster mentioned diet as well.  I could post several clinical papers on this, but I think a personal experience of mine will help you much more.

 

I had high BP long before Benzodiazaphines.  I haven't had high BP in many years.  What changed??

 

We don't have high BP in our family, and given my young age back then, I knew something wasn't right.  Something was causing my high BP

I decided to try a drastic radical change in diet.

 

1. I went from a high carb , high everything diet, to a low carb , high protein diet.  I was and have never been overweight, but over the course of 6 months I lost about 30 lbs.  My BP completely normalized.  I must mention that this was a radical experiment, and I don't recommend doing it without a dietician.  I also cut out all gluten.  I mean all gluten.  And back then they did not have gluten free processed foods, so this meant all processed foods were stopped.

 

2. I attributed the normalized BP at this point to the radical weight loss.  Weight loss will drop both resting and nonresting BP.  To be honest, the diet in point 1 above was brutal.  After 6 months I was wiped out.  The lack of carbs was draining me.  So I decided to add carbs back in, but only healthy carbs, still no processed food, and most importantly NO gluten.  I expected the BP to start going up again, because I gained about 15 lbs back pretty quickly.

 

3. The amazing thing was the BP stayed completely normal.  For me I was gluten intolerant.  I felt much better off the gluten, and the BP to this day runs a bit on the low side at around 115/70 ish. 

 

I've never gone back on gluten again.  Never. None.

 

I tell a lot of people this story, and to be honest none of them have been able to give up gluten.  It's a radical change in lifestyle, but for me it worked.  I got off all the BP meds a long long time ago.

 

 

I just have one question:

Is the problem with resting BP, or spiking BP during stress, or both?

[Guest [Sk...]]

dm123.

 

well done on the gluten free.

 

I have been gluten free or about 9 years and initially lost a lot of weight too,

amazing and felt so well.

( didnt do the low carb though) 

I actually think my allergy to gluten created inflammation and histamine

and giving it up, lowered the histamine and inflammation,

and the benzos being slightly anti histamanic kept what histamine I was ingesting via food

under wraps in some fashion.however once of the benzos it just escalated from there, and I guess comfort foods

in benzo withdrawal didnt help, as I guess I thought  I was off the allergic food so I was I was okay

 

However now it seems to have transitioned into histamine intolerance

since going of the benzos, and as the drugs  were anti histamanic  in effect as are antidepressants

I guess now the histamine flooded my system, it seems building up over time Causing massive inflammation etc.

 

Some Common symptoms of histamine intolerance include:

Headaches/migraines

Difficulty falling asleep, easily arousal

Hypertension

Vertigo or dizziness

Arrhythmia, or accelerated heart rate

Difficulty regulating body temperature

Anxiety

Nausea, vomiting

Abdominal cramps and diarrhea/constipation

Flushing

Dry skin

Nasal congestion, sneezing, difficulty breathing

Abnormal menstrual cycle

Hives and Itching skin

Fatigue

Tissue swelling and inflammation

 

And dont worry you need several of the above not just one

they can relate to many things often so its several together that count.

 

It sometimes come from poorly broken down proteins  and food and

the inflammation this causes often, and lack of Dao enzyme to break down histamine

in the  histamine containing foods  :'( :'(

 

 

Bit like going gluten free actually in the beginning

gradually getting it under control again with the low histamine diet and the DAO enzyme

 

Our bodies are a mystery at times and parts fail to work properly often

especially after being assaulted  by drugs  :'( 

Its like a jigsaw puzzle fitting all the pieces together to see the whole puzzle

of this healing process.

 

Your research is valuable to many dm123

as we all need to research what is required for our own healing

and your research gives us much info to draw on

 

Enjoy your many posts dm123 so thanks for all your work. 

 

[[Te...]]

Hi, dm123,

 

I'm always concerned about blood pressure because that has been the most terrible of all my symptoms. It turned out that the ACV did not work. But I've always wondered about benzo buddies having terrible times with blood pressure, and then suddenly it rights itself. They're able to get off pills. What in the world flips the switch? What causes the blood pressure to just drop?

 

Also, I'd like to know why it is that when I feel a "down" feeling in my frontal lobe, I know that my blood pressure has lessened. That area is where I feel the adrenaline, also. What does the frontal lobe have to do with benzos?

 

Just wondering, and thanks so much!!

 

Hi Terry,

 

As some of the previous posters mentioned, High BP can be due to a number of different things .

We do know that during withdrawal or taper, we expect pulse and/or diastolic BP readings to rise up as the body acclimates to the new dosage.  Since you are long past that acute wd,and tapering phase, it's most not likely due to this.    This type of BP anomaly  is due to transient overactivity in the sympathetic nervous system. 

 

 

A.About your frontal lobe sensation:

 

In the neural circuits paper we will learn that inhibitory signaling plays a large part in maintaining the physiological functional output of the circuit.  Many of these circuits are involuntary circuits like those that control respiration/breathing,  I haven't analyzed the neural circuits that control other autonomic functions like BP, but I would guess that they are also highly dependent on a properly functioning inhibitory control system (ie, GABAergic signaling).  Many of these neural circuits originate in the cortex , pass through the striatal regions, go through the basal ganglia , and then hit the ventral or dorsal thalamus and brainstem,  to control downstream physiological functions.  As we will see in the neural circuits paper, a lot of this physiological function depends on a proper working inhibitory system.  The striatal tissue is loaded with medium spiny neurons or MSNs, which were Introduced in module 3 of the neural circuits paper (see earlier post).  These are important because they are hub neurons that collect inputs from many different brain regions, and sum up all the inputs out their projections into deeper (lower) parts of the brain.  The projections of MSNs are inhibitory and release GABA.  My point of all of this is that the sensation in your frontal lobe (cortex) might be a part of a larger autonomic neural circuit that's modulating your sympathetic nervous system and BP, and all neural circuits are heavily dependent on inhibitory signaling.  We don't know if your inhibitory signaling is still nonoptimal. 

 

We did discuss the autonomic nervous system in an earlier post, when we discussed ACV, etc.. As you know, the brainstem controls blood pressure, and things like stress (perceived in higher regions of the brain like the cortex and amygdala) provide signals to the brain stem so that blood pressure is acclimated to the stress.  So just because you have high BP, it doesn't necessarily mean there is autonomic dysfunction in the brain stem.  Perceived stress by the higher regions of the brain, like the cortex can affect BP, and it could be the inhibitory signaling along the neural circuit is not working optimally.

 

 

B. Aging:

 

The other area to consider is aging in general reduces the elasticity and responsiveness of the endothelial smooth muscle of the arteries.  In effect the arteries become less elastic, and therefore less adaptable to modulating BP in the events like stress, drastic temperature change, and as you've mentioned vigorous exercise.  Eventually, as we get much older, the arteries and vascular tissue becomes less and less flexible and even at rest BP remains elevated.  Moderate  exercise, providing your MD has given you clearance, is actually beneficial in reducing blood pressure because over time the blood vessels become more resilient to stress,,and at rest (i.e., no physiological stress) BP drops.  This is a physiological adaptability response to moderate exercise.

 

 

C. Diet:

 

In addition, the earlier poster mentioned diet as well.  I could post several clinical papers on this, but I think a personal experience of mine will help you much more.

 

I had high BP long before Benzodiazaphines.  I haven't had high BP in many years.  What changed??

 

We don't have high BP in our family, and given my young age back then, I knew something wasn't right.  Something was causing my high BP

I decided to try a drastic radical change in diet.

 

1. I went from a high carb , high everything diet, to a low carb , high protein diet.  I was and have never been overweight, but over the course of 6 months I lost about 30 lbs.  My BP completely normalized.  I must mention that this was a radical experiment, and I don't recommend doing it without a dietician.  I also cut out all gluten.  I mean all gluten.  And back then they did not have gluten free processed foods, so this meant all processed foods were stopped.

 

2. I attributed the normalized BP at this point to the radical weight loss.  Weight loss will drop both resting and nonresting BP.  To be honest, the diet in point 1 above was brutal.  After 6 months I was wiped out.  The lack of carbs was draining me.  So I decided to add carbs back in, but only healthy carbs, still no processed food, and most importantly NO gluten.  I expected the BP to start going up again, because I gained about 15 lbs back pretty quickly.

 

3. The amazing thing was the BP stayed completely normal.  For me I was gluten intolerant.  I felt much better off the gluten, and the BP to this day runs a bit on the low side at around 115/70 ish. 

 

I've never gone back on gluten again.  Never. None.

 

I tell a lot of people this story, and to be honest none of them have been able to give up gluten.  It's a radical change in lifestyle, but for me it worked.  I got off all the BP meds a long long time ago.

 

 

I just have one question:

Is the problem with resting BP, or spiking BP during stress, or both?

 

Thank you for this, dm123!!!

 

I think my problem is extreme stress about TAKING my blood pressure and having it taken. I have a lot of PTSD issues surrounding bp, and I'm going to start seeing a therapist soon.

 

When I'm comfortable, I still have to take my bp a couple of times to get a true reading. It used to be all over the place, but it's seemed to have stabilized a little the lower my anxiety goes.

 

I haven't been able to give up gluten, which calms me down during extreme stress.

 

There's a feeling I get in my head when stressed. I can't explain it, and I never had it before benzos. Even thinking hard about something causes it to happen because I guess that activates the frontal lobe? I just have to stop what I'm doing and calm down. Then again, the pills I'm taking, many of which are beta blockers, might be giving me anxiety, too. The stress affects my stomach, too. And so do the pills.

 

There's also a feeling I get in the frontal lobe when I know my bp is down, sort of a tired, "down" feeling. Again, I can't explain it.

 

I just did a 24-hour urinalysis in order to test my catecholamines. I'm also going to have a fasting blood test tomorrow. I've been reading a lot about catecholamines and even thought for awhile that I had pheochromocytoma.

 

Just writing this, it feels like my bp is rising!!

 

I've never been overweight. When my bp soared to 260 because of NSAIDS, I weighed 116 at 5'5". And I haven't strayed far. I weighed 123 the last time I was at the doctor's office with my shoes on.

 

I was exercising quite a bit, was walking 20 miles one week, more than the usual, and noticed that my bp got up to 175. It stayed in the 160s after that for most of the day. It finally went down the next day. So I stopped doing a lot of exercise, and my bp is much more stable. It seems that my bp is quite volatile.

 

The low-histamine diet is good, and I follow that mostly, eating the same things so that there is less volatility.

 

But above all, I think that relieving myself of the PTSD issues surrounding bp is important. The PTSD keeps getting reinforced by the volatility of my bp. I tend to think that when that strange feeling in my head stops, it'll quit being so volatile.

 

The ACV caused problems in that I cannot tolerate tangy foods. I started eating some salad dressing from Trader Joe's, and every day I noticed my bp was getting higher and higher. I had to quit it. Last night I ate some artichokes in vinegar, going off my diet, and ate some bran cereal, and this morning I could feel that "motor" running inside. Very uncomfortable. I'll get back to the straight and narrow today.

 

Of course,  when I go to the doctor, which I have a phobia about because of all the things I've experienced, my bp goes sky high. So I have taken my Omron with me and show them the numbers. Numerous comments about my bp by medical personnel have reinforced the PTSD.

 

Just wish I could get back to the bp I used to have!

 

But I still wonder why BB people's bp drops. This happens many times in the benzo mess. lostdog is no longer taking any pills at all. My bp dropped for about 3 months, and I have no idea why, but I began drinking coffee, and that ruined it. I was able to reduce some pills while it was low. I have looked in nitric oxide. It seems to have something to do with the benzo stuff.

 

Sorry for the long post, dm123.

 

 

[[In...]]

Has anyone considered what used to be called, “white coat syndrome?”

 

That means that a person going to the doctor and knowing that their blood pressure would be taken would get themselves “all worked up and worried” as they sat in the waiting room.

 

This used to happen to me all the time when I became an adult. The doctor would often express surprise and then ask if I was nervous, and when I said “yes,” proceed to calm me a bit and then take several readings to get a normal one.

 

My hubby never had this “syndrome” himself, but one day, out of the blue, his BP was way higher than 6 months before. It turned out he had what is called atrial flutter, had to have surgery, and now takes BP meds. He does get a bit nervous now, but BP has been well within normal range.

 

Seems like some of this BP aspect could be attributed to plain old nerves and personality.

 

I was never on a benzo at the times I’m referring to, and my hubby has never taken a benzo.

[[Te...]]

Yes, of course, Intend. I know what white coat syndrome is, and that plus bp has created PTSD that gets reinforced every time someone even mentions blood pressure. I think getting a new doctor has really helped.

 

But I'm wondering why people on BB in withdrawal suddenly have a drop in their blood pressure. I'm sure they don't question it. They're just happy to get off their pills. I also had this for almost three months, and I have no idea what happened. I certainly wasn't following any special diet.

[[In...]]

Terry,

 

There is no question in my mind that benzos change so many body functions, and after taking them and tapering or fully withdrawn, many people have numerous sx and problems during and after.

 

I’m definitely not discounting the “Benzo factor” here. And I surely see why you’d want to investigate and understand as much as possible.

[[Te...]]

Thank you, Intend!! Yes, I've had this ever since I was on Ativan (was dependent right away), and it's been driving me crazy ever since!!

[[cs...]]

Hi Terry can you go through these links and let us know if you are on any herbs or nsaids, or hormone therapy.  These can also cause HBP

 

Any herbs like ginger, any hormones like estrogens or progestins, and decongestants or allergy meds, any caffeine, any antidepressants, any calcineurin inhibitors, and VEGF inhibitors?  Any NSAIDs or arthritis meds?

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5599270/

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1524-6175.2003.01923.x/asset/j.1524-6175.2003.01923.x.pdf;jsessionid=5A484A6E8489D085DBB1D423D5E713D5.f01t03?v=1&t=jesrab9x&s=63edc3859dcdc288f9007e0c033cd35cc2c8e19d

 

 

Quote

A59-year-old woman was evaluated in the hyper- tension clinic in December, 2001, for persistent stage 3 hypertension. She had a 12-year history of hypertension controlled on hydrochlorothiazide monotherapy. However, blood pressure had increased, progressing for approximately 6 months prior to her consultation visit and was refractory to the addition of clonidine and felodipine to her regimen. Some leg swelling and a few episodes of rapid heart beat had been noted. Home and clinic pressures of 180–200/80–110 mm Hg were observed Her primary physician had prescribed acetamino- phen for osteoarthritic knee discomfort, but the patient’s brother, a physician, had also prescribed celecoxib 200 μg q.d. Furthermore, the patient admitted to taking various herbal products for her arthritic condition and to enhance her well-being. Physical examination revealed an overweight female with a blood pressure of 182/94 mm Hg and a heart rate of 100 beats/min. Heart and lung examinations were normal except for some tachy- cardia; there were no bruits. Additionally, 1–2+ ankle edema was noted. Urinalysis revealed no proteinuria, and serum creatinine was 1.2 mg/dL. It had not been apparent that the patient was taking celecoxib along with herbal remedies, but when requested to bring in all of her prescription medica- tions, and questioned about herbal products, the extent of her polypharmacy was realized. One of the herbal concoctions contained ginger root. On stopping the celecoxib and herbal formula, a followup blood pres- sure 3 weeks later was 138/86 mm Hg. Removal of felodipine led to resolution of her edema and palpita- tions, and she no longer required clonidine

 

End quote

 

 

http://www.sld.cu/galerias/pdf/servicios/hta/hipertension_secundaria_drogas_y_toxinas.pdf

Quote

Abstract: This review summarizes the current state of knowledge about drugs, other chemical substances, and toxins on blood pres- sure. Many classes of drugs, such as steroids, sympathomimetic amines, immunosuppressive agents, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory agents, antidepressants, erythropoietin, substances of abuse and other agents can induce transient or sustained hypertension, exacerbate well-controlled hypertension, antagonize the effects of antihyperten- sive therapy, or precipitate hypertensive emergencies. Heightened awareness on the part of the physician is important to avoid unnec- essary tests in search for other etiologies, and to reduce antihyper- tensive medication prescriptions by eliminating contributing agents whenever possible. These agents represent an important modifiable cause of secondary or resistant hypertension.

End quote

 

 

https://www.empr.com/features/htn-hypertension-blood-pressure-medications-induced/article/668117/

 

 

See this table

 

https://www.empr.com/features/htn-hypertension-blood-pressure-medications-induced/article/668117/2/

 

 

[[Te...]]

Yes, dm123. I was taking NSAIDS (for back pain) and drinking coffee besides for about 2 years. When I tried to get off the NSAIDS, I had such bad itching all night and insomnia that it took about 3 times to get off the stuff. I didn't even realize how high my bp was getting! I thought OTC drugs would be okay (very naive back then), and since I had no stomach problems at all, just had swelling, I thought it was because of a foot pain I had.

 

I wasn't on herbs or hormones at that time. I stopped them all.

 

I don't drink much, so it wasn't the alcohol. One thing I've found is that coffee profoundly affects me adversely. It can raise my bp very high. That's why I was researching nitric oxide (the neurotransmitter). Maybe the NSAIDS and benzos pummeled this? I used to be able to drink coffee.

 

I finally stopped NSAIDS, but my brother-in-law came over and offered me some Advil, since I still had the foot pain. He said he "took them like candy." I thought they'd be okay to take. After that, all hell broke loose and I ended up in the hospital with two back-to-back visits for five days. I was given Ativan there, but I don't know how much. I was given drugs IV to lower my bp. I don't know what they were. When I got out of the hospital I started developing anxiety, probably from all the drugs in the hospital. I asked for something to relieve it and was given Ativan. I became dependent very quickly. Unfortunately, I didn't watch my bp.

 

Since that time I've had low salt. Nothing seems to bring it up. I eat a whole bunch of salt, and I've only gotten to the lowest number. I was hospitalized for it in 2014. Do benzos add to the low-salt problem?

 

I think my kidneys are shot more from the pills than anything else. My liver has been compromised by the Labetalol I take.

 

Another thing, which I'm embarrassed about, is that I stupidly got off my bp pills (tapering them but going too fast) in 2016. So now I'm obsessed with taking my bp, since I didn't at that time. I really think the pills altered my brain because I would NEVER do something like that now.

 

I'm allergic to any medication with the COX 2 in it, and that includes aspirin. My platelets have been sky high before, even reaching 1.8 million. That was after hospitalization for the TIA after I got off pills.

 

The adrenaline issue has always been with me. The only way to combat it is to remain as calm as I can. My life is highly orchestrated to avoid stress. In other words, I don't do much.

 

A doctor told me I had "highly reactive blood." It certainly seems like it. I notice anything going through my bloodstream can cause problems with my bp.

 

Maybe this has something to do with my vagus nerve. The body is so complicated, with everything flowing into one another, that something can go wrong, leading to a domino effect very easily.

 

Sorry I hijacked this thread, but if you can figure out something, I will be eternally grateful!!!

[[cs...]]

Yes, dm123. I was taking NSAIDS (for back pain) and drinking coffee besides for about 2 years. When I tried to get off the NSAIDS, I had such bad itching all night and insomnia that it took about 3 times to get off the stuff. I didn't even realize how high my bp was getting! I thought OTC drugs would be okay (very naive back then), and since I had no stomach problems at all, just had swelling, I thought it was because of a foot pain I had.

 

I wasn't on herbs or hormones at that time. I stopped them all.

 

I don't drink much, so it wasn't the alcohol. One thing I've found is that coffee profoundly affects me adversely. It can raise my bp very high. That's why I was researching nitric oxide (the neurotransmitter). Maybe the NSAIDS and benzos pummeled this? I used to be able to drink coffee.

 

I finally stopped NSAIDS, but my brother-in-law came over and offered me some Advil, since I still had the foot pain. He said he "took them like candy." I thought they'd be okay to take. After that, all hell broke loose and I ended up in the hospital with two back-to-back visits for five days. I was given Ativan there, but I don't know how much. I was given drugs IV to lower my bp. I don't know what they were. When I got out of the hospital I started developing anxiety, probably from all the drugs in the hospital. I asked for something to relieve it and was given Ativan. I became dependent very quickly. Unfortunately, I didn't watch my bp.

 

Since that time I've had low salt. Nothing seems to bring it up. I eat a whole bunch of salt, and I've only gotten to the lowest number. I was hospitalized for it in 2014. Do benzos add to the low-salt problem?

 

I think my kidneys are shot more from the pills than anything else. My liver has been compromised by the Labetalol I take.

 

Another thing, which I'm embarrassed about, is that I stupidly got off my bp pills (tapering them but going too fast) in 2016. So now I'm obsessed with taking my bp, since I didn't at that time. I really think the pills altered my brain because I would NEVER do something like that now.

 

I'm allergic to any medication with the COX 2 in it, and that includes aspirin. My platelets have been sky high before, even reaching 1.8 million. That was after hospitalization for the TIA after I got off pills.

 

The adrenaline issue has always been with me. The only way to combat it is to remain as calm as I can. My life is highly orchestrated to avoid stress. In other words, I don't do much.

 

A doctor told me I had "highly reactive blood." It certainly seems like it. I notice anything going through my bloodstream can cause problems with my bp.

 

Maybe this has something to do with my vagus nerve. The body is so complicated, with everything flowing into one another, that something can go wrong, leading to a domino effect very easily.

 

Sorry I hijacked this thread, but if you can figure out something, I will be eternally grateful!!!

 

Hi Terry,

 

You said

"I think my kidneys are shot more from the pills than anything else. My liver has been compromised by the Labetalol I take."

 

Have they done any tests beyond the standard BUN and creatinine blood work for your kidneys?

Can you read the full article below.  (I pulled some quotes , but you should read the whole thing).

Have you been checked out for renovascular hypertension?  It's pretty rare.  1/20.    Most HBP, as the article states, has unknown origin and etiology.

 

They use ultrasonography, magnetic resonance angiography (MRA), or radionuclide imaging to image and diagnose the blockage of the artery.

 

I don't want to play doctor, but I assume you can ask your nephrologist about this?

 

Renovascular hypertension doesn't always show up in BUN and creatinine.

 

 

----------

 

https://hypertension.gumc.georgetown.edu/patientcare/hypertension/secondary

 

 

Quote

Kidney disease is usually accompanied by high blood pressure. Kidney disease is suggested if you have a raised blood urea nitrogen (BUN) or blood creatinine (Cr), or your kidneys are leaking protein into your urine. However, special types of kidney problems can lead to high blood pressure even in the absence of a raised BUN or creatinine or any abnormality in the urine test. These are conditions that cause a narrowing of the artery to your kidney and a decrease in its perfusion with blood, renovascular hypertension. About one patient in 20 with high blood pressure has renovascular hypertension as the underlying cause.

 

 

There are two conditions that can lead to a narrowing of the artery to the kidney and give rise to renovascular hypertension. One is termed fibromuscular dysplasia, which, although uncommon, is found especially in young women. The second cause of a narrowed renal artery is atherosclerotic renal artery stenosis, or hardening of the artery to one or both kidneys. This usually occurs later in life.

 

End quote

 

We already discussed aldosterone a while back on this thread, but I think you are on a BP med that lowers aldosterone(?), so I don't know if a test would help.

 

Quote

Other causes of secondary hypertension relates to glandular (endocrine) abnormalities. The most important is an excessive secretion of a hormone called aldosterone from one or both of your adrenal glands. You have an adrenal gland on top of each of wach of your kidneys. If you have high blood pressure, you have about one chance in 20 that it is caused by an excessive secretion of aldosterone into your blood.

 

There are two major causes of an excess of aldosterone secretion. Both cause an increase in blood pressure and an excessive loss of potassium in the urine which can give rise to low blood potassium. If both adrenal glands are overactive, this is treated by drugs that block aldosterone that include spironolactone [Aldactone] or eplerenone [inspra]. The second cause is a benign tumor of the adrenal glands. This tumor can sometimes be detected by the radiologist from a CAT scan and removed by a surgeon using a laparoscopic procedure. This usually improves the blood pressure. A benign adrenal tumor is the cause of high blood pressure in only about five patients in every 100.

End quote

 

 

 

 

Also, if caffeine causes BP to spike you have an overactive sympathetic nervous system, because caffeine is a stimulant.  I'm guessing certain allergy meds and decongestants probably make your BP spike as well.

 

[[Te...]]

Thank you for this, dm123!!!

 

I haven't thought about renovascular hypertension. I just got an ultrasound of my kidneys and bladder, and am going to discuss that when I see my doctor in one week. I also had the test to see if I have pheochromocytoma, a tumor on my kidney. The BUN and creatinine are usually out of whack. Yesterday I did a blood test to see how it's doing and everything else.

 

I've been tested for aldosterone, but that was in 2012. It was okay then. My problem is that I have too much potassium and not enough sodium, and that seems opposite of what aldosterone does.

 

I'll have to see what my doctor says, if she'll refer me to a nephrologist and endocrinologist.

 

There's a lot to think about, and thank you so much for all your research, dm123!!! I'm very determined to get to the bottom of this. It's been on my mind for years...

 

 

[[fr...]]

  Terry,  I also have HBP and take 20 mg. Lisinopril.  My potassium has crept up to 5.5 and my sodium is always low also.  My liver and kidney function are normal.  I often wonder if its this med causing a lot of grief in my body.  I started it around the same time as I crossed over to Valium.  Maybe I should ask Dr. about it and switch. Just don't know what to do, I know I can't ssurvive this burning horrible neuropathy and muscular pain everywhere.  Its slowly killing me.  Many thanks for your help and DM is a gem. 

[Guest [Sk...]]

  Terry,  I also have HBP and take 20 mg. Lisinopril.  My potassium has crept up to 5.5 and my sodium is always low also.  My liver and kidney function are normal.  I often wonder if its this med causing a lot of grief in my body.  I started it around the same time as I crossed over to Valium.  Maybe I should ask Dr. about it and switch. Just don't know what to do, I know I can't ssurvive this burning horrible neuropathy and muscular pain everywhere.  Its slowly killing me.  Many thanks for your help and DM is a gem.

 

some info re this...Lisinopril and potassium  and maybe might help

 

https://www.livestrong.com/article/524824-lisinopril-and-potassium/

 

Lisinopril and Potassium 

 

ACE inhibitors like lisinopril can increase your blood potassium levels, particularly if you have kidney disease. If you take lisinopril with potassium supplements, potassium-containing salt substitutes or large amounts of food that are high in potassium, you can develop hyperkalemia. A report describing severe potentially life-threatening hyperkalaemia resulting from taking salt substitutes and ACE inhibitors was published in the “Journal of Human Hypertension” in October 1999. Consult with your doctor before taking supplemental potassium with lisinopril, and have your potassium blood levels checked occasionally.

 

 

[[fr...]]

  Thanks, don't use any salt substitutes.  I don't think I eat an excessive amount of food with potassium either.  Just such a mystery, all this. 

[[Te...]]

  Terry,  I also have HBP and take 20 mg. Lisinopril.  My potassium has crept up to 5.5 and my sodium is always low also.  My liver and kidney function are normal.  I often wonder if its this med causing a lot of grief in my body.  I started it around the same time as I crossed over to Valium.  Maybe I should ask Dr. about it and switch. Just don't know what to do, I know I can't ssurvive this burning horrible neuropathy and muscular pain everywhere.  Its slowly killing me.  Many thanks for your help and DM is a gem.

 

I think a lot of bp pills cause high potassium. I always had high potassium when I was on Valsartan. No doctor ever mentioned that the Valsartan caused it, but I looked it up, and sure enough, it did. I no longer take that drug. Labetalol, which I do take, causes higher potassium. At first I thought it was because the people who manufacture these drugs think that people who need bp pills must not be eating enough foods that contain potassium, so they added it in. I was also thinking that those pills are a natural diuretic, to take salt out, and they cause a lot of going to the bathroom. But my electrolytes were all screwed up because of that, too.

 

Maybe it would be a good idea to talk with your doctor. Has he mentioned that Lisinopril causes high potassium?

[[fr...]]

  No he hasn't.  Maybe since now my potassium has reached the upper limit of normal he will change it who knows.  My top number is still high esp. after I take the pill.  Morning pressure is usually good but then goes up a little.  Really might think about going off that med if its going to cause these issues but not really sure since I'm on other meds.  Thanks and hope you get some answers. 

[[Sw...]]

I have been taking 10 mg Lisinopril for at least 15 years.  It was recently increased to 20 mg of which I slowly titrated up from 10 to 20 mg.  I am now taking the 20 mg, not happy about it but my reduced stress BPs are 120 to 135 systolic and 60 to 75 diastolic. 

 

The last CBC showed a potassium level smack dab it the middle of the range and a sodium on the cusp of being low from the range (the lab value says 136 - 135 for sodium) it was 136.

 

My biggest deal worrying at the moment is normalizing my blood fat numbers.  They are slightly elevated and the PCP wants me to go on a statin.  No way, the only good things I know about a statin are written by the pharmaceutical compnay that produces it, everywhere else, everyone else says avoid at all costs.  My last A1C was 6.6 which is a disastrous number to me but the Medical Group I have the insurance with calls it "well controlled diabetic".  No that 6.6 is unacceptable to me, I am trying to do what I can to reduce it.  My father's family is loaded with diabetics so I have that to contend with as well.  I know that the blood glucose regulation will have an impact on the cholesterol et al circulating in my body.  My BMI as of today is 27.

 

I do not eat sugar, honey only cutting this out as well.  Studying how else I can tweak my diet know that I have been eating too much rice and sometimes gluten  as well.  All in all I do try to eat reasonably healthy none of the bakery stuff, drink only water and herbal tea, lots of vegetables and fruits.  Exercise is a key factor as well, don't do enough of it. 

 

And no I am NOT blaming psych drugs for the continued blood glucose/blood fats issue this time.  This is all on me and not paying stricter attention to it.

 

Sweet pea

[[cs...]]

Hi all,

 

Yes.  We discussed the same on this thread around 2 months ago.

 

These drugs are either ACE inhibitors or angiotensin II antagonists.

 

 

In general they lower aldosterone, and this is why serum Na drops and potassium rises.  So if you are on these drugs, it's not really useful to measure aldosterone, because that is one of the intended mechanisms of action.  When aldosterone drops, BP drops.(fludrocortisone does just the opposite as it's a mineralocorticoid substance and mimics the effects of aldosterone, even though it's not aldosterone .  So fludrocortisone will raise Na and lower K)

 

With these drugs, in general , exercise induced increases in renin are suppressed and angiotensin II levels drop as well.

 

So it's "normal" to have slightly elevated K and slightly low Na on these drugs.  They indirectly affect these levels partly via the drug's affects on aldosterone.

 

I'm not a doctor, but taking a salt substitute or salt to increase serum Na would seem to be working against the drug.  It would be difficult to raise Na while taking these drugs due to the effects above.  Also taking salt and raising serum Na will cause your BP to go higher, and you will end up having to take more of the drug. A vicious circle

 

The good thing is that these "abnormal" Na and K levels don't indicate that there is anything wrong with your kidneys, assuming your MD and nephrologist have given you a full workup.

 

 

If I had BP, I would stay on the drugs. I'm glad I don't, but I would take them if I did.

I think these types of drugs do benefit mankind, and we are lucky to have them.  They prevent so many HBP related secondary diseases , including kidney failure itself, strokes, etc. Sometimes HBP can be simply age related, and these drugs extend our lives.

 

 

This link  explains the various effects of  aldosterone, and how it helps reabsorb Na and excrete K.  Given that the drugs lower  aldosterone, the opposite happens: lower Na, and higher K.  Less  reabsorbtion of Na, back into the body. 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldosterone

 

 

Once again, I think we are lucky to have these types of drugs, as well as beta blockers, etc.

 

P.S.  Both of my parents are on BP meds, one is on a beta blocker (low dose) and the other I think on one of these ACE inhibitors.  The are vibrant, active and healthy.....

 

[[Sw...]]

Thanks dm123 for this simple explanation of why the sodium is low taking the ACE inhibitor and not to eat too much salt.  I have been wondering about this, sometimes I overdo the salt which in the future I will be more cognizant of "don't overdo."  In my case restraint is the key.

 

Thanks again.

 

Sweet pea