Struggling :(

[[te...]]

I'm sorry in advance for how long and detailed this is! My brain works better on a timeline, and my anxiety is through the roof...and I know you all understand this feeling!

 

I've been putting off coming here and posting because I didn't want to complain or whine when I know many have it worse. And, I was on such a short-term use of benzos that my withdrawal experience is very different and I'm not exactly sure what's happening to me, but I have some ideas.

 

I was doing a LOT better... I switched to a new doctor (a PA actually, but also met with the MD who oversees her). I felt more supported by her (still do). She tapered me off zoloft which I felt was exacerbating everything. We tried some new things, mirtazapine and hydrocyzine. I began experimenting with using different sleep aids on different nights, and some nights using nothing and sleeping! I was down to taking 7.5mg mirtazapine 1-2x a week and maybe taking a unisom another night, and then either doing melatonin or nothing the other nights. I went on a business trip out of state and slept great for three nights, only needed my melatonin "knock out" thing one night and it worked within 5 minutes (never usually works that fast!).

 

But then all of a sudden another tough cycle started. The day after I came back from my conference I slept well. Then the next night, I had a tough night and I started sleeping on the futon because I couldn't sleep in bed. (This was the Monday before the election). I had a rough night but still got 5-6 hours which is livable and not bad at all. Then the election happened, which was traumatic for me. I took a 7.5 mirtazapine that night and got restless sleep, but still slept. The following night I was tired so I fell asleep without taking anything which was nice. Then, I got a cannabis card (from the above mentioned MD) after researching and thinking about this for a long time. I really wanted to try something else, and am tired of taking a medication and waiting for it to "knock me out." I hate that feeling, it actually worsens my anxiety about everything. I got some cannabis edibles and used on and off for a few nights, with a few nights of nothing - and it worked! I didn't sleep like a baby, but I fell asleep slowly and naturally and felt like a real person, I would still wake up to drink water, etc and I was happy. Then this past Monday, I got a super dry mouth from the cannabis and it made my throat so dry it felt like it was closing! Even though I had initially fallen asleep, I woke up and couldn't get comfortable because of my throat feeling, it set off a panic reaction and I was awake til 4:30am when I finally fell asleep and got 3 hours of restless sleep. The next night I took mirtazapine 7.5 and it kicked in and worked and I slept well (but still had to go out to the futon, can't actually fall asleep in bed). I tried sleeping with nothing the following night (which was wed) but couldn't, which was weird b/c usually mirtazapine works 2 nights in a row. I felt discouraged and worried, so I took the other half the pill and fell asleep. The next night I used my melatonin knock out, and while it took awhile, I did fall asleep. And then yesterday.... awake all night again! Tried taking melatonin pill. Nada. I wasn't even anxious about it, I had gone to a very good therapy session with my therapist and realized a lot of groundbreaking things... but still, here I am, stuck in this cycle. I didn't panic or freak out while awake all night. My husband is so nice, he "camps out" with me on the futon in the living room when I can't sleep in bed. I laid there for hours listening to ASMR and guided meditation videos endlessly. I finally gave in and went on my phone (I have a light blocker on it but whatever) and another friend was awake with insomnia and we texted and it was so relieving and great. Afterward, it was like 3am, my husband woke up, and he put on John Oliver on his tablet and we listened and I fell asleep sometime after that. Slept off and on with weird dreams and dry mouth, and then moved to the bed at some point and woke up at 8:30am and could no longer sleep.

 

Even though I missed out on meeting friends for a long run at 7am, I still went to the trail and ran with my husband, and ran into those friends and was good seeing then. We then ran errands, and went to a movie. I can't tolerate movies well right now, I get restless/anxious and feel like jumping out of my skin! But I got through...and then we walked around the mall and bought some xmas gifts which was a nice distraction. My anxiety starts rising in the afternoons around 2pm and goes until the evening, unless a really good conversation happens or I am distracted by people. You would think I would feel tired right now, but I am so wired and keyed up. I want to go outside and go for a walk in the dark! I am still doing everything I can to live life according to my values, and do things I enjoy. I go to work most of the time even when I don't sleep well (I have only missed work once since this started). I am seeing a therapist. I am meditating most days (could do more and longer! it's so hard to sit though). I feel like I am trying and not giving up but I am feeling so discouraged and sad and anxious and I fear night time every night. I dread it.

 

The doctor wrote me a prescription for belsomra. I've read so many reviews that it doesn't work. I think I should give it a chance, but not tonight. I'll wait until I feel less anxious to try something totally new. I have no idea what to take tonight. I have so many options but nothing is appealing because I am tired of taking something to force my body to do something it's supposed to do naturally. I guess I started this whole thing the night I took the ativan when I couldn't sleep the night before my semester started and I was in a full blown panic. Damnit!

 

I fear that things won't work on consecutive nights, which tends to happen. Not sure if this happens to you guys, too. I don't mind taking mirtazapine and unisom, but they don't always work multiple nights in a row. The cannabis was okay but now I am wary since I had that bad experience and dry mouth is gonna happen with it no matter what. I think if I had something that was calming and consistently worked, I would feel more confident and be okay. Rebound insomnia is a thing too, I know. I wonder if I'm in a strange 4 month out wave??

 

Thanks for listening. I know there are a lot of deep, underlying reasons why I'm struggling. And letting go of the struggle is key. I get it! But so much easier said than done. So sorry this was so long. Not really looking for particular answers, just vent. I am seeing a sleep doctor next week, so who knows if that will help. I am considering going back on an SSRI or SNRI because the anxiety loops make this so much harder. I have obsessive thoughts about sleep, my medication, what to take, what not to take, and I have a constant running commentary in my head underneath real life that is always about sleep. When I am actually awake at night, I am actually okay which is weird, but then the next day I am a wreck again. Even if I sleep that night! I think I am the type of person benzos were designed for, sadly.

 

Thanks so much for reading my crazy dissertation! 

~teal

[[me...]]

 

Thanks for listening. I know there are a lot of deep, underlying reasons why I'm struggling. And letting go of the struggle is key. I get it! But so much easier said than done. So sorry this was so long. Not really looking for particular answers, just vent. I am seeing a sleep doctor next week, so who knows if that will help. I am considering going back on an SSRI or SNRI because the anxiety loops make this so much harder. I have obsessive thoughts about sleep, my medication, what to take, what not to take, and I have a constant running commentary in my head underneath real life that is always about sleep. When I am actually awake at night, I am actually okay which is weird, but then the next day I am a wreck again. Even if I sleep that night! I think I am the type of person benzos were designed for, sadly.

 

Sorry to hear you are struggling, tealwater, and nobody has responded. I think the last section here is the crux of it. There aren't any great answers for effortless sleep, we just have to accept where we are, and hope for better nights ahead.

[[te...]]

Meowie, thanks so much for replying!

 

I agree, there are no answers to effortless sleep because that would imply "effort," haha, ironic right? Sleep is not something anyone can control. Even people who naturally sleep well.

 

I've been trying to focus on living life despite poor/no sleep and anxiety/worry about sleep. It helps I went away for Thanksgiving. I've also been trying to really limit when and what I take to support sleep. Taking things, no matter what, tends to increase my anxiety because it makes me believe I need it. Again, this makes it sound like I am trying. Haha, I guess I still am, but slowly trying to disconnect myself from the struggle. Easier said than done. Reading a few great books about ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) and CBT for insomnia. The ACT stuff is better I think, and probably more people here would appreciate it. It's more about acceptance and willingness to experience things versus trying to control (like stimulus control and sleep restriction of CBT plus challenging thoughts). Although, they both have their uses.

 

Anyway, this is a journey and being awake at night is forcing me to really get to know myself, something I've avoided for 34 years. I can't run away from all this anymore, it's right in my face all night long and I've no choice but to embrace it!

 

Hope all is well with you, and to anyone else reading this. 

[[Sp...]]

Hi Teawater

I am new and not fluent with using the Forum so hope this makes it through.

 

U h

live int he UK  The label on Mirtazapine says once you start it you must continue.It also warns about stopping and starting.  If I read correctly you are doing this.

 

It also says that you must taper off Mirtazapine once you want to stop- JUST like

a a Benzo (check the spelling )   (Not at you ! at the GP

 

This is serious stuff to me. I have to now go back to see him I took one 15 and slept

for England then felt so bad I cut the next night to 7.5.  Feeling quite awful I stopped the stuff.  This was 3-4 days ago. I have had one good sleep but now

I am on an all nighter.  I am taking life very slowly now. Hopes of being off by

Spring are fading but at least I am forewarned.

 

It you on on Mirtazapine and using it systematically it is going to most likely be

quite confusing for your body.

 

Hope this helps and when I get to the surgery for appt I will hopefully ave something more to report.  I am so Fed up with the dodgy way this is taken so lightly. Lawsuits and backhanders I suspect.  I am sticking with tapering...not brilliantly but hope to improve. This Forum is Great - but it takes a lot of reading togged the big whole picture

[[te...]]

Hi Teawater

I am new and not fluent with using the Forum so hope this makes it through.

 

U h

live int he UK  The label on Mirtazapine says once you start it you must continue.It also warns about stopping and starting.  If I read correctly you are doing this.

 

It also says that you must taper off Mirtazapine once you want to stop- JUST like

a a Benzo (check the spelling )   (Not at you ! at the GP

 

This is serious stuff to me. I have to now go back to see him I took one 15 and slept

for England then felt so bad I cut the next night to 7.5.  Feeling quite awful I stopped the stuff.  This was 3-4 days ago. I have had one good sleep but now

I am on an all nighter.  I am taking life very slowly now. Hopes of being off by

Spring are fading but at least I am forewarned.

 

It you on on Mirtazapine and using it systematically it is going to most likely be

quite confusing for your body.

 

Hope this helps and when I get to the surgery for appt I will hopefully ave something more to report.  I am so Fed up with the dodgy way this is taken so lightly. Lawsuits and backhanders I suspect.  I am sticking with tapering...not brilliantly but hope to improve. This Forum is Great - but it takes a lot of reading togged the big whole picture

 

Thanks Sparky, for your kind words and thoughts! I definitely saw that about mirtazapine, when you take it regularly like that, it needs to be tapered. I never took it regularly, though, and as far as I was told (by doctors, and people on here too!) that it is okay to take as needed.  I pretty much took it once a week for awhile. I am trying to not take anything and just let my body re-figure out how to sleep. I also am toying with CBT-I/ACT for insomnia (both are great, they are different). Some of the components of CBT-I are daunting, but I believe they will work if I really stick to it! I am with you, I was pretty much up all night last night... at first I laid in bed with my husband, then I moved to the living room, tried reading, watching videos, etc.. eventually walked my dog at 3am because that calms me down! Then my husband woke up because he was worried about me. I got maybe 1-2 hours of real sleep max. I stayed calm the whole night though, and am strangely calm though tired right now. My thing is my old PCP threw a lot of meds at me when this first started, he re-started me on beta blockers and sertraline to try and quell anxiety, and I think it made the insomnia worse. My new doctor is the one who has tried prescribing different sleep meds (bless her soul, she really listens) and she took me off sertraline (with a proper taper of course). Now she is having me taper off beta blockers. I am almost done the taper. Although sleep isn't much improved, my anxiety IS getting better! We thought maybe they were making anxiety worse, even though in theory they "treat" it, but everyone is different.

 

Some people in my life don't get it, they tell me to "just take drugs and take control." Taking drugs makes me feel LESS in control! My anxiety gets worse whenever I take anything and it revs me up more.

 

I have been off benzos for 4 months now, so I would say I'm like 80% recovered or more since I was only using them for a week and a half for sleep. But the insomnia cycle continued because of my anxiety, worry, behaviors, and switching up sleep aids (probably confusing my system). Anyway sorry this was so long! Your advice on the mirtazapine is helpful. I hated the next day feeling on that med, too. I suspect my  random use of stuff also exacerbated my anxiety. I am going to keep doing what I can to get this right in a way that makes sense to me. Keep in touch!

[[MT...]]

Tealwater,

 

I've been finding ACT extremely helpful during wd and with coping with insomnia. Focusing on acceptance and observing thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. instead of struggling with them is oddly powerful and provides some peace. As for CBT-i, if you are able to sleep on your own I think it can be effective during benzo wd. It doesn't work if you have many zero nights though. It's worth a try but keep up  the ACT too.

 

MT

[[te...]]

Tealwater,

 

I've been finding ACT extremely helpful during wd and with coping with insomnia. Focusing on acceptance and observing thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. instead of struggling with them is oddly powerful and provides some peace. As for CBT-i, if you are able to sleep on your own I think it can be effective during benzo wd. It doesn't work if you have many zero nights though. It's worth a try but keep up  the ACT too.

 

MT

 

Thanks, MT! ACT is the bomb. I am reading several books about both ACT and CBT for insomnia, as well as mindfulness. They have all been helpful in different ways. My therapist I see is also a practitioner of ACT. I'm practicing more regular mindfulness meditation and definitely observing thoughts/feelings/sensations like you said! One of the books I got (called the sleep school by guy meadows) had a great suggestion for looking at thoughts differently to get some separation, and treating them as little characters or singing happy birthday to them. It's definitely helpful sometimes for sure! I need to keep at it. I feel like the CBT-I WOULD work for me, as I do have drug free sleep (some weeks more than others) and I believe it would work, but the sleep restriction is so intimidating. I'm trying to decide when to start trying this, I might actually on my vacation in December/Jan. I'm also toying with going on another/different SSRI. I know many on here would disagree, but I feel like I'm trapped in a negative thought cycle which is feeding the sleep difficulty cycle and I really need help. I've tried so hard on my own. We'll see what happens. I appreciate all of your kind comments! Last night was a rough night (~2 hrs sleep)...and anxiety was off the chain today, but I reached out to people, had many great conversations, managed to teach the one class I teach on Mondays, and took my dog on several long walks. If I need to tonight, it will be a mirtazapine night. Take care all!

[[Sl...]]

Hi Tealwater,

 

I don't know if this will help at all but you are not alone. I was doing better my first 3 months off Klonepin, getting about 2-4 hours of very broken sleep. But in the 4th month, I began to have several nights a week with 0 hours of sleep, usually followed by 1 hour the next night, with 4 hours never happening in 6 weeks.  I am now well  into my 5th month and am back to 2-4 hours broken sleep. I don't sleep more than an hour or 90 minutes without waking up. I am guessing I wake as I should be going into REM sleep.  I don't know what is going to help but I hope time will, at least that is what veterans say.  I also am relatively calm during my sleepless nights, but I dread nighttime. I wonder if I will ever sleep normally again. I'm saying a little prayer for you, hoping tonight is a good on.

 

Sleepless

[[MT...]]

Tealwater,

 

I've been finding ACT extremely helpful during wd and with coping with insomnia. Focusing on acceptance and observing thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. instead of struggling with them is oddly powerful and provides some peace. As for CBT-i, if you are able to sleep on your own I think it can be effective during benzo wd. It doesn't work if you have many zero nights though. It's worth a try but keep up  the ACT too.

 

MT

 

Thanks, MT! ACT is the bomb. I am reading several books about both ACT and CBT for insomnia, as well as mindfulness. They have all been helpful in different ways. My therapist I see is also a practitioner of ACT. I'm practicing more regular mindfulness meditation and definitely observing thoughts/feelings/sensations like you said! One of the books I got (called the sleep school by guy meadows) had a great suggestion for looking at thoughts differently to get some separation, and treating them as little characters or singing happy birthday to them. It's definitely helpful sometimes for sure! I need to keep at it. I feel like the CBT-I WOULD work for me, as I do have drug free sleep (some weeks more than others) and I believe it would work, but the sleep restriction is so intimidating. I'm trying to decide when to start trying this, I might actually on my vacation in December/Jan. I'm also toying with going on another/different SSRI. I know many on here would disagree, but I feel like I'm trapped in a negative thought cycle which is feeding the sleep difficulty cycle and I really need help. I've tried so hard on my own. We'll see what happens. I appreciate all of your kind comments! Last night was a rough night (~2 hrs sleep)...and anxiety was off the chain today, but I reached out to people, had many great conversations, managed to teach the one class I teach on Mondays, and took my dog on several long walks. If I need to tonight, it will be a mirtazapine night. Take care all!

 

I understand the sleep restriction sounds scary but it's also the most powerful, effective aspect of CBT-i. It's actually not as awful as you expect. The first couple of days are the hardest and then sleep starts to consolidate. I did it a few years ago so that the first two weeks were over my Christmas break. Once you make the adjustment of staying out of your bedroom and planning other things until your assigned bedtime it's not so bad.

 

The choice as to whether to try an SSRI is a tricky one. You feel stuck in your current head space but you're also learning and practicing new skills. To some extent, as long as you have severe insomnia you're going to find your thinking is negative. It's just plain a symptom of insomnia for which I haven't seen meds be effective. Then there's the problem of how antidepressants fragment sleep and suppress REM. So many impossible choices during wd. Good luck with this!

[[te...]]

Thanks guys. I'm wide awake again tonight. Last night I passed out at like 8pm (this was after being awake pretty much all the night before until 4am!) and slept like 9 hours. I got up at 5:30am with my husband, which is earlier than I normally do, so I wouldn't "oversleep." I was pretty fine all day at work, but I did dread nighttime again, and here we are. I teach night classes during the week, and it is SO hard to wind down after that. My husband and I have a new tradition of walking our dog at night before bed, it's really calming and I look forward to it now. We did that, watched a view education videos, and even had sex (sorry, TMI).. this can sometimes help with sleep. It did help relax me, and I felt very comfortable in the blankets, but I was still awake and felt myself get more and more worked up once he fell asleep, so I eventually got up to try and break the chain (the cycle of associating the bed with being hyperaroused). I took one of my herbal melatonin knock out things, but I don't think it's going to do anything. Anyone else have this every other night craziness?

 

MT, thanks for the CBT-I info! I have heard it does help a lot. What was your experience with it? Did you have several days of awful nights before it started to kick in? What drives me nuts is when I get less than 4 hours, my anxiety rages the next day and the nighttime dread is worse than ever. I was surprised I could fall asleep Monday night after the day I had all day.I am doing the best I can to plan life activities, fulfill obligations, and NOT limit things because of this. it is so hard, not because I am tired, but because I get so anxious and restless. I can manage things like walking my dog, talking to friends, eating, etc, but when I try to sit on a computer and do work or teach (i'm a college professor) it's SOOO hard.

 

I know I shouldn't be on the computer, but I just gave in because it helps to just write things out. I might take my dog for another walk (it's 12:15am where I am). The cold night air is comforting and I like looking at christmas lights. Plus (this might sound crazy) when I see other people have lights on, I feel less alone.

 

I really want to cut myself a break. I only have called out of work ONCE since this mess started. I know it isn't a good habit to get into, but I might let myself off the hook. I only have a few weeks left of the semester and I get a break, but I am so effing tired of this and dreading night time, and now also dreading day time because of the anxiety surge that follows!

[[MT...]]

Tealwater, the insomnia of benzo wd is brutal and you're doing pretty well if you're still working, engaging in activities, walking, etc. You have exactly the right attitude of trying to carry on with your life despite your symptoms and insomnia. I too find it really hard to think and have more anxiety with sleep deprivation but I've learned how to roll with it a little more easily. My work days (two/week) can feel like hell and I worry about screwing someone up but I'm doing a passing job.

 

When I did CBT-i (it was before all of this) I had a couple of rough nights but then some response. I go long periods without more than minutes of sleep at a time of a few days to a couple of weeks so I'm an extreme case. I'm delighted when I get any sleep at all although I always crave more. Someday that will happen.

 

Try downloading f.lux for your computer so the blue light doesn't mess with your sleep.

[[te...]]

Thanks again MT. I have that f.lux on my work computer. This one is a strange bird (it's more like one of those tiny computers, like a chromebook) and it's hard to me to download crap on it.

 

Do you remember more about the CBT-I process? Feel free to PM me or send here. I'm curious about details and about how the whole situation went for you.

 

Thanks so much for all the encouragement. Yesterday I had the thought "I am a warrior!" Because of how I'm managing. It doesn't make it any easier, though. I still am confused about whether or not I'm still in withdrawal or if this is rebound from trying lots of sleep aids, or if this is just the original insomnia cycle. I guess at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.

[[MT...]]

Tealwater, you are definitely a warrior. It takes courage to do what you're doing and tolerate the discomfort/misery involved.

 

The insomnia you're experiencing is probably primarily wd from the benzo, leaving you with an extra sensitive nervous system for now. Siggy had a terrible time with insomnia and was a short-term user like you but now he almost always sleeps well. Lorazapam and Klonopin seem to cause more sleep problems from what I see. Regardless of the cause, what you have to do is the same: patience, acceptance, practice decent sleep hygiene, and seriously consider the CBT-i.

 

I don't know what else to tell you about CBT-i. I did it through the University of Virginia's online "shuti" program. It cost around $130 for around 6 weeks. Each week there was a video with stuff to learn and practice and a daily sleep log. They made adjustments to my sleep schedule based on my sleep journal. Despite knowing some things about CBT and sleep, I still found it helpful until I was in full wd. Like I've said, if you have lots of zero nights it can't work its magic and without meds I mostly have nights with zero sleep or a few minutes at a time with occasional good nights of 90 minutes to three hours of very light, broken sleep. I liked all of the examples of real people they used to teach you the process. I've recommended it to clients too and they've had excellent results IF they follow the program. Just knowing you're doing something to help yourself can be therapeutic.

 

Are you thinking of doing it on your own, using an online program, a book or with a therapist?

[[te...]]

Hi MT,

It still boggles my mind that I used it for literally 6 days and I'm 4 months out...and makes me wonder if this really is still withdrawal. I will say there has been a gradual improvement in things, even when they are still bad. It would actually be comforting to know for sure if it was withdrawal, because then one would know it will keep getting better and eventually really improve. I do get used to the bad nights, and find I can actually function better the next day than I used to. I also am rarely taking anything for sleep anymore. I really do not want to.

 

For the CBT-I, I am probably going to follow books that I've gotten, and maybe utilize my therapist for support. She's not an expert in this, but she is trained in evidence based practices and would be a resource if nothing else. I don't really want to pay for yet another thing! LOL. I'm not sure when I'll start, but I am sorta semi keeping a sleep log now so I have some data for it. It's so weird taking the average of the nights when every night is so extremely different!

 

Thanks so much for your support and posts, it means a lot!

[[MT...]]

Good luck with it. Let me know how it goes.

[[po...]]

I'm in the same boat right now

 

I'm having a lot of zero sleep nights, and dreading night time. I did a bit of switching around with Benadryl, NyQuil, valerian. 

 

I'm debating whether to just take the stupid xanax I was prescribed by my doc until I get in to see a counselor this weekend. But I'm also in the "taking meds gives me anxiety". My doc keeps trying to reassure me that it's ok to take the xanax for a bit, but I still freak out.

 

This all started with a bad reaction to Zoloft for anxiety. I wish I would have never touched a pill in the first place!

[[te...]]

I'm in the same boat right now

 

I'm having a lot of zero sleep nights, and dreading night time. I did a bit of switching around with Benadryl, NyQuil, valerian. 

 

I'm debating whether to just take the stupid xanax I was prescribed by my doc until I get in to see a counselor this weekend. But I'm also in the "taking meds gives me anxiety". My doc keeps trying to reassure me that it's ok to take the xanax for a bit, but I still freak out.

 

This all started with a bad reaction to Zoloft for anxiety. I wish I would have never touched a pill in the first place!

 

Potpiepants (btw I love that name!), I'm so sorry to hear you are in the insomnia vortex too. Know you are not alone! If only we all had some kind of batman signal and we could all connect with each other when we were awake at night, I think it would be so helpful!

 

My night time dread has slowly, gradually, slightly, improved... I am not sure if it is because I started getting a little more sleep, or because I was functioning okay on very little sleep, or because I found friends I could call late at night if I needed to...and I also recently started taking celexa. It has only been 4 days so it's way too soon to tell, but my anxiety during the day has gotten a bit better.

 

I also had a terrible reaction to zoloft! My story is a little complicated but zoloft made my anxiety and mood swings a lot worse. I was very afraid to take another SSRI after that! I currently rotate unisom and mirtazapine for sleep, and I want to try melatonin again but a lot of time it doesn't work.

 

I won't tell you to not take the xanax or take the xanax. As you know, most of us are here because of trying to get off benzos. I know lots of people in my life who are prescribed benzos and supposedly use them as needed and are fine, but I am too scared to ever go down the road again. And that goes for z drugs, too. However, it might not be a problem for you, and it might actually help you. You never know. But i can't give medical advice.

 

Thanks for responding to my post. It means a lot! May you see my bat signal