Daily Micro-Tapering Support Group

[Guest [Ma...]]

Buddies,

Just spoke with my Pdoc and chemist.

Pdoc is not ready to script Intensol but would consider it if the chemist will confirm the details of dilution.

The chemist is concerned about the precipitation of diluting the Intensol with water. He is suggesting using almond oil or glycol to prevent the water precipitation leading to inaccurate alprazolam dosing.

For now, I am restricted to moving forward with MT capsules. He will reduce from .642 to .63.

I posted earlier, but no response, on my concern that the alprazolam raw material expired in 11/2014. The chemist feels, in his experience, that it is still stable.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Marija

 

I so sorry , I don't have anything on this..

I think it's kind of odd that you'd get something expired.

Hoping someone else will come along who knows more about this. Maybe Sg or Anne ?

 

Moodle,

I am concerned about this as well. He is a trustworthy chemist and would be willing to source a fresh batch, but at a significant increase in cost. The problem is the suppliers. They are not carrying the raw material in smaller quantities. That's why I wanted to make the switch to liquid but Pdoc is not on board.

My chemist did mention the option of grinding tables but then I would need to consider the excipients.

Hmmm,

 

Hope you are feeling better mOO.

 

M🌷

[[ga...]]

Lol you guys are amazing. Yes I'm on 2mg pills each weighing . 3

I just cut from 5.6mg to 5.4 today. But I think if I stabilize after this cut at all I want to try micro tapering I don't ever have intrrdose withdrawal I dose 3 x a day I just have withdrawal and I get no relief after dosing it's just straight up tolerance withdrawal. I know cuz I had to take 20mg of valium for wisdom teeth extraction two weeks ago and I had a window for like 3 days. But how long does it take to feel the cut and stabilize.?

1. Do you stabilize quicker cuz it's short acting?

 

I can't really switch over to valium I'm already so unstable I never stabilize but I do have occasional days where I feel ok I go through massive severe waves even when holding because of my reinstated so far out and my ct was so traumatic I spent 6 months doing ct after ct trying to get off and I think I'm just stuck on withdrawal the fear only went away for short while after reinstating. Now all the mental symptoms are back even worse but it did get rid of a lot of the nerve symptoms which I'm scared will come back during the taper

 

So that's where I'm at right now  I haven't been very active on the forum lately cuz I can't relate to many people on the degree of suffering and it scares me because I was off for 6 months and had no improvement things actually got worse.... well some things did and now I'm on methadone too which is killer!.

 

But I like this board I think this will be my home group. Everyone here seems so close and helpful and possitive.

 

2. I'm doing ok today I did ok yesterday also was able to go out on a date with my girlfriend. I don't understand how I can be so so sick and mentally insane I am convinced I'm dying for like two weeks and pulling my hair out and crying anpsychotic then I feel ok for a couple days if I'm lucky. Should have never reinstated my liver is not doing well and having all kinds of neurologic problems and teeth problems that are most likely because of gabapentin

 

Sorry for this insanely long post. Maybe I can switch to valium after I get further down on the ativan. I feel a bad bad storm brewing. Can't wait for the fear and overwhelmed hypochondriac obsession about health and pills and akathisia and sickness. I mean I get so sick I can't walk I'm so dizzy and nauseous. And start thinking I never been this bad before.....

 

Ug so anyway it's to late to micro taper this batch because I only get 10 days at a time and I already cut my pills down to .27 I wonder how long till I feel it and how long before the symptoms die back down again

Next batch I will start trying the micro if I can get it set up my scale is not super accurate and 3. I refuse to do liquid I can't with my living situation.

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris. A few things came to my mind reading this.

 

1. That's a good question and I'd like to know the answer, too.

 

2. Yay, you had a window! That's a good sign. It proves your brain can heal. The OK days (or hours or minutes) are called windows and the bad times are called waves. Benzodiazepine withdrawal is always like that. Windows and waves. You can be holding or cutting at a steady rate and still have random windows and waves. Your nervous system is trying to repair itself and can be very unpredictable. All those symptoms you describe are typical. They are your "withdrawal brain" screaming lies at you and they are overwhelming, even traumatizing. Probably my biggest battle is not worrying about the next wave, but putting my focus elsewhere.

 

Here is a link I found just the other day about how to deal with benzo lies from your withdrawal brain. It is about cultivating a "non-withdrawal brain" to help cope with your "withdrawal brain." This is something to practice when your symptoms are low so you are prepared for when they are high. http://www.recovery-road.org/acceptance (You can watch the odd little robotic video or just read the text.)

 

3. Can you tell us why you can't use a liquid? If not, that's OK.

 

I am glad you are going to hang out here and try to be as positive as possible. The scary stories just trigger your symptoms and make them worse. I spent a lot of time reading the scary stories when I was new and needed to learn. Eventually I learned that most of those threads were TMI and making me worse. I decided I had gathered enough info and it was time to stay away from them! And also time to tone down the words I used to describe my symptoms to myself and to others so I didn't actually re-traumatize myself. That recovery-road website has a helpful page called DOs and DON'Ts that I can give to family and friends to describe my problem without my having to repeat it. http://www.recovery-road.org/dos-and-donts I can just send them the link and say, "Please read this. Please don't give up on me while I try to heal. And, yes, it is really that bad!" Perhaps your girlfriend would be helped by the link. She would probably like to understand better what's going on (without reading a lot of scary stories)  and would be reassured to know that what you are going through is what everybody else having withdrawal is going through, too. And that it's not forever, even though it seems that way.

 

BTW, I have only about 6 threads I follow on Benzo Buddies now and none is super scary. Joke of the Day is a good one!

 

Gard

[[ga...]]

Buddies,

Just spoke with my Pdoc and chemist.

Pdoc is not ready to script Intensol but would consider it if the chemist will confirm the details of dilution.

The chemist is concerned about the precipitation of diluting the Intensol with water. He is suggesting using almond oil or glycol to prevent the water precipitation leading to inaccurate alprazolam dosing.

For now, I am restricted to moving forward with MT capsules. He will reduce from .642 to .63.

I posted earlier, but no response, on my concern that the alprazolam raw material expired in 11/2014. The chemist feels, in his experience, that it is still stable.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Marija

 

Hi Marija. Couple of questions.

 

1. Are you trying to get the liquid Xanax or the liquid Valium?

2. A chemist is what we call a pharmacist in the US, right?

3. Did the chemist say why he thought the almond oil or the glycol would be OK?

 

And I'd sure like to hear from Anne or somebody if the pharmacist is correct about the water not holding the alprazolam in solution, because that's how I'm diluting! I confess I do stir before I pull my dose out of the dilution. Well, when I remember.

[[ga...]]

When I look at it, it's not rotated....

Weird.

 

That is weird. Yours looks upside down and SG's looks right side up on my computer.

 

Both of them are right side up on my end. 

 

Gremlins!!!

[Guest [Ma...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

1.  I'm trying to get the liquid Xanax (alprazolam)

2.  Yes, chemist the same as pharmacist.

3.  The issue with diluting the Intensol with water is with "precipitation". He explained, and shared his experience with other clients using Intensol lorazepam (same list of ingredients but lorazeoam instead of alprazolam) that adding water disrupted the suspension of the drug, producing a cloudy product with inaccurate amounts of the drug in the liquid per draw. That is why he is suggesting diluting with almond oil or another oil. He said he would contact other labs, chemists etc to confirm.

 

Gardener, I questioned him on stirring to prior dosing. He felt that it was too inaccurate when working with such tiny dosages. His preference is oil. At this time, however, a mute point in that my Pdoc is not on board. I wanted to share this information, however, knowing that others, like you, are diluting with water.

 

Anne, do you have thoughts on this issue?

 

Marija

[[ga...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

1.  I'm trying to get the liquid Xanax (alprazolam)

2.  Yes, chemist the same as pharmacist.

3.  The issue with diluting the Intensol with water is with "precipitation". He explained, and shared his experience with other clients using Intensol lorazepam (same list of ingredients but lorazeoam instead of alprazolam) that adding water disrupted the suspension of the drug, producing a cloudy product with inaccurate amounts of the drug in the liquid per draw. That is why he is suggesting diluting with almond oil or another oil. He said he would contact other labs, chemists etc to confirm.

 

Gardener, I questioned him on stirring to prior dosing. He felt that it was too inaccurate when working with such tiny dosages. His preference is oil. At this time, however, a mute point in that my Pdoc is not on board. I wanted to share this information, however, knowing that others, like you, are diluting with water.

 

Anne, do you have thoughts on this issue?

 

Marija

 

That's interesting. My dilution is not cloudy. I would be curious to know what he finds out. Tell him my diluted alprazolam intensol has not turned cloudy, at least not yet. This is my second batch. I could easily use glycol instead of water. Oil sounds hard to work with. It clings to everything. I would think you would have trouble with the oil clinging to the container and part of the dose clinging, too. Has this guy ever washed greasy dishes?

[[an...]]

Buddies,

Just spoke with my Pdoc and chemist.

Pdoc is not ready to script Intensol but would consider it if the chemist will confirm the details of dilution.

The chemist is concerned about the precipitation of diluting the Intensol with water. He is suggesting using almond oil or glycol to prevent the water precipitation leading to inaccurate alprazolam dosing.

For now, I am restricted to moving forward with MT capsules. He will reduce from .642 to .63.

I posted earlier, but no response, on my concern that the alprazolam raw material expired in 11/2014. The chemist feels, in his experience, that it is still stable.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Marija

Hi Marija,

 

Many drugs are still stable years after the expiration date. The expiration date is the last date that the drug manufacturer will guarantee full potency of the drug.  Full potency can be down to 90% of the original.  The potency will also depend on how the drug is stored. Light, fluctuations in temperature, moisture can cause a drug to lose potency more quickly.

 

I read your other post from today, and I do not understand why it would cost you more money for the pharmacy to order in more of the drug to replace the expired drug.  A pharmacy should not be dispensing expired drugs.  At the same time, I have taken lorazepam well after its expiration date (a couple of years in one case) and had no problems.  It just depends on the drug.  I know that nitroglycerin decomposes very quickly and should never be used after the expiration date.  My father, who has a heart condition, found that out the hard way.

 

As far as the worry of precipitation of the drug if water is added, that is possibility.  From what I have read, the directions say that the intensol can be mixed with water and other liquids like juices. I would think the intensol can be diluted to a certain extent (there is probably a limit as to how much water can be added) without having to worry about precipitation of the active ingredient.  Again, precipitation is possible and is dependent on many factors.  Temperature is a big one.  Does the intensol need to be refrigerated? 

 

Your pharmacist says he has observed precipitation with the intensol when mixed with water? Cloudiness does indicate that something is precipitating out of solution.

 

 

 

[[ga...]]

Buddies,

Just spoke with my Pdoc and chemist.

Pdoc is not ready to script Intensol but would consider it if the chemist will confirm the details of dilution.

The chemist is concerned about the precipitation of diluting the Intensol with water. He is suggesting using almond oil or glycol to prevent the water precipitation leading to inaccurate alprazolam dosing.

For now, I am restricted to moving forward with MT capsules. He will reduce from .642 to .63.

I posted earlier, but no response, on my concern that the alprazolam raw material expired in 11/2014. The chemist feels, in his experience, that it is still stable.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Marija

Hi Marija,

 

Many drugs are still stable years after the expiration date. The expiration date is the last date that the drug manufacturer will guarantee full potency of the drug.  Full potency can be down to 90% of the original.  The potency will also depend on how the drug is stored. Light, fluctuations in temperature, moisture can cause a drug to lose potency more quickly.

 

I read your other post from today, and I do not understand why it would cost you more money for the pharmacy to order in more of the drug to replace the expired drug.  A pharmacy should not be dispensing expired drugs.  At the same time, I have taken lorazepam well after its expiration date (a couple of years in one case) and had no problems.  It just depends on the drug.  I know that nitroglycerin decomposes very quickly and should never be used after the expiration date.  My father, who has a heart condition, found that out the hard way.

 

As far as the worry of precipitation of the drug if water is added, that is possibility.  From what I have read, the directions say that the intensol can be mixed with water and other liquids like juices. I would think the intensol can be diluted to a certain extent (there is probably a limit as to how much water can be added) without having to worry about precipitation of the active ingredient.  Again, precipitation is possible and is dependent on many factors.  Temperature is a big one.  Does the intensol need to be refrigerated? 

 

Your pharmacist says he has observed precipitation with the intensol when mixed with water? Cloudiness does indicate that something is precipitating out of solution.

 

Anne, The intensol must be kept at room temperature 59-86 degrees F. The directions say it can be mixed and then must be consumed immediately. The drug company would not deviate from that. Is the pharmacist correct that propylene glycol would be a better diluter than water? If my dilution is clear does that mean it has not precipitated? Thanks.

[[an...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

1.  I'm trying to get the liquid Xanax (alprazolam)

2.  Yes, chemist the same as pharmacist.

3.  The issue with diluting the Intensol with water is with "precipitation". He explained, and shared his experience with other clients using Intensol lorazepam (same list of ingredients but lorazeoam instead of alprazolam) that adding water disrupted the suspension of the drug, producing a cloudy product with inaccurate amounts of the drug in the liquid per draw. That is why he is suggesting diluting with almond oil or another oil. He said he would contact other labs, chemists etc to confirm.

 

Gardener, I questioned him on stirring to prior dosing. He felt that it was too inaccurate when working with such tiny dosages. His preference is oil. At this time, however, a mute point in that my Pdoc is not on board. I wanted to share this information, however, knowing that others, like you, are diluting with water.

 

Anne, do you have thoughts on this issue?

 

Marija

 

That's interesting. My dilution is not cloudy. I would be curious to know what he finds out. Tell him my diluted alprazolam intensol has not turned cloudy, at least not yet. This is my second batch. I could easily use glycol instead of water. Oil sounds hard to work with. It clings to everything. I would think you would have trouble with the oil clinging to the container and part of the dose clinging, too. Has this guy ever washed greasy dishes?

 

Hi Gardner,

 

Can you tell me how you make a batch, starting with the intensol,  and how much you make and how many doses you get from each batch?  I know that you have written this out somewhere on this thread, but I cannot find it.  Sorry.

 

Thanks

 

Anne

[[ga...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

1.  I'm trying to get the liquid Xanax (alprazolam)

2.  Yes, chemist the same as pharmacist.

3.  The issue with diluting the Intensol with water is with "precipitation". He explained, and shared his experience with other clients using Intensol lorazepam (same list of ingredients but lorazeoam instead of alprazolam) that adding water disrupted the suspension of the drug, producing a cloudy product with inaccurate amounts of the drug in the liquid per draw. That is why he is suggesting diluting with almond oil or another oil. He said he would contact other labs, chemists etc to confirm.

 

Gardener, I questioned him on stirring to prior dosing. He felt that it was too inaccurate when working with such tiny dosages. His preference is oil. At this time, however, a mute point in that my Pdoc is not on board. I wanted to share this information, however, knowing that others, like you, are diluting with water.

 

Anne, do you have thoughts on this issue?

 

Marija

 

That's interesting. My dilution is not cloudy. I would be curious to know what he finds out. Tell him my diluted alprazolam intensol has not turned cloudy, at least not yet. This is my second batch. I could easily use glycol instead of water. Oil sounds hard to work with. It clings to everything. I would think you would have trouble with the oil clinging to the container and part of the dose clinging, too. Has this guy ever washed greasy dishes?

 

Hi Gardner,

 

Can you tell me how you make a batch, starting with the intensol,  and how much you make and how many doses you get from each batch?  I know that you have written this out somewhere on this thread, but I cannot find it.  Sorry.

 

Thanks

 

Anne

 

I put 45 ml of tap water into a graduated cylinder and add 5 ml of intensol using a syringe. Then I pour it into an amber jar and store it at room temperature. Is this OK? Thanks.

 

continued…

[[ga...]]

Let's see, if I have 50 ml and I dose 1.8ml 6 times a day that would mean….getting my calculator!

 

I get about 28 doses and that lasts me about 5 days.

 

Except last time I made two batches, so that will last me 10 days.

[Guest [Ma...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

1.  I'm trying to get the liquid Xanax (alprazolam)

2.  Yes, chemist the same as pharmacist.

3.  The issue with diluting the Intensol with water is with "precipitation". He explained, and shared his experience with other clients using Intensol lorazepam (same list of ingredients but lorazeoam instead of alprazolam) that adding water disrupted the suspension of the drug, producing a cloudy product with inaccurate amounts of the drug in the liquid per draw. That is why he is suggesting diluting with almond oil or another oil. He said he would contact other labs, chemists etc to confirm.

 

Gardener, I questioned him on stirring to prior dosing. He felt that it was too inaccurate when working with such tiny dosages. His preference is oil. At this time, however, a mute point in that my Pdoc is not on board. I wanted to share this information, however, knowing that others, like you, are diluting with water.

 

Anne, do you have thoughts on this issue?

 

Marija

 

That's interesting. My dilution is not cloudy. I would be curious to know what he finds out. Tell him my diluted alprazolam intensol has not turned cloudy, at least not yet. This is my second batch. I could easily use glycol instead of water. Oil sounds hard to work with. It clings to everything. I would think you would have trouble with the oil clinging to the container and part of the dose clinging, too. Has this guy ever washed greasy dishes?

 

I will ask about the cloudiness.

Almond oil does not stick per say. It holds the suspension from what he should me.

 

 

[[an...]]

Buddies,

Just spoke with my Pdoc and chemist.

Pdoc is not ready to script Intensol but would consider it if the chemist will confirm the details of dilution.

The chemist is concerned about the precipitation of diluting the Intensol with water. He is suggesting using almond oil or glycol to prevent the water precipitation leading to inaccurate alprazolam dosing.

For now, I am restricted to moving forward with MT capsules. He will reduce from .642 to .63.

I posted earlier, but no response, on my concern that the alprazolam raw material expired in 11/2014. The chemist feels, in his experience, that it is still stable.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Marija

Hi Marija,

 

Many drugs are still stable years after the expiration date. The expiration date is the last date that the drug manufacturer will guarantee full potency of the drug.  Full potency can be down to 90% of the original.  The potency will also depend on how the drug is stored. Light, fluctuations in temperature, moisture can cause a drug to lose potency more quickly.

 

I read your other post from today, and I do not understand why it would cost you more money for the pharmacy to order in more of the drug to replace the expired drug.  A pharmacy should not be dispensing expired drugs.  At the same time, I have taken lorazepam well after its expiration date (a couple of years in one case) and had no problems.  It just depends on the drug.  I know that nitroglycerin decomposes very quickly and should never be used after the expiration date.  My father, who has a heart condition, found that out the hard way.

 

As far as the worry of precipitation of the drug if water is added, that is possibility.  From what I have read, the directions say that the intensol can be mixed with water and other liquids like juices. I would think the intensol can be diluted to a certain extent (there is probably a limit as to how much water can be added) without having to worry about precipitation of the active ingredient.  Again, precipitation is possible and is dependent on many factors.  Temperature is a big one.  Does the intensol need to be refrigerated? 

 

Your pharmacist says he has observed precipitation with the intensol when mixed with water? Cloudiness does indicate that something is precipitating out of solution.

 

Anne, The intensol must be kept at room temperature 59-86 degrees F. The directions say it can be mixed and then must be consumed immediately. The drug company would not deviate from that. Is the pharmacist correct that propylene glycol would be a better diluter than water? If my dilution is clear does that mean it has not precipitated? Thanks.

 

Thanks Gardner.  So, temperature should not be a problem. Propylene glycol is used in the intensol as a solvent, so yes it is a possibility.  If you see now particles and your solution is not cloudy, the drug has not precipitated out of solution.

 

Anne

[[ga...]]

Buddies,

Just spoke with my Pdoc and chemist.

Pdoc is not ready to script Intensol but would consider it if the chemist will confirm the details of dilution.

The chemist is concerned about the precipitation of diluting the Intensol with water. He is suggesting using almond oil or glycol to prevent the water precipitation leading to inaccurate alprazolam dosing.

For now, I am restricted to moving forward with MT capsules. He will reduce from .642 to .63.

I posted earlier, but no response, on my concern that the alprazolam raw material expired in 11/2014. The chemist feels, in his experience, that it is still stable.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Marija

Hi Marija,

 

Many drugs are still stable years after the expiration date. The expiration date is the last date that the drug manufacturer will guarantee full potency of the drug.  Full potency can be down to 90% of the original.  The potency will also depend on how the drug is stored. Light, fluctuations in temperature, moisture can cause a drug to lose potency more quickly.

 

I read your other post from today, and I do not understand why it would cost you more money for the pharmacy to order in more of the drug to replace the expired drug.  A pharmacy should not be dispensing expired drugs.  At the same time, I have taken lorazepam well after its expiration date (a couple of years in one case) and had no problems.  It just depends on the drug.  I know that nitroglycerin decomposes very quickly and should never be used after the expiration date.  My father, who has a heart condition, found that out the hard way.

 

As far as the worry of precipitation of the drug if water is added, that is possibility.  From what I have read, the directions say that the intensol can be mixed with water and other liquids like juices. I would think the intensol can be diluted to a certain extent (there is probably a limit as to how much water can be added) without having to worry about precipitation of the active ingredient.  Again, precipitation is possible and is dependent on many factors.  Temperature is a big one.  Does the intensol need to be refrigerated? 

 

Your pharmacist says he has observed precipitation with the intensol when mixed with water? Cloudiness does indicate that something is precipitating out of solution.

 

Anne, The intensol must be kept at room temperature 59-86 degrees F. The directions say it can be mixed and then must be consumed immediately. The drug company would not deviate from that. Is the pharmacist correct that propylene glycol would be a better diluter than water? If my dilution is clear does that mean it has not precipitated? Thanks.

 

Thanks Gardner.  So, temperature should not be a problem. Propylene glycol is used in the intensol as a solvent, so yes it is a possibility.  If you see now particles and your solution is not cloudy, the drug has not precipitated out of solution.

 

Anne

 

Would you say that propylene glycol would be a better safe than sorry option?

So far I have not felt any worse or any better since I have been diluting.

Can you understand why the Valium Ativan would be precipitating and the Xanax not?

Or might it be that people are refrigerating it or something?

This is mysterious.

[[Ul...]]

Does anyone know if detox or inpatient psychiatric facilities take patients who are micro tapering? I feel like i have lost my mind and in too of that having medical issues from what i believe to be the tapering.

 

I'm sorry to say that I have never heard of a psych facility or detox facility in the US that will help with tapering of any kind except rapid. One of our members has been looking for weeks for someone who will help him because his primary doctor cut off his script. The slowest taper any facility would do was all the way to zero in 6 weeks.

 

I have one suggestion that may or may not work. If you really feel you need to go inpatient, just try to stay there to stabilize at the dose you are on. Do not say you are trying to taper. I made the mistake of saying I was trying to taper and they took my med away and tried to c/t me. I asked to be discharged and was discharged AMA. After that, I called several other hospitals after that to ask what the h*** happened and if all hospitals would do that to me. They said it was a roll of the dice whenever you went inpatient. The suggestion I got from one hospital administrator is what I told you. Don't even mention tapering or they may try to rapid taper you. I suggest you try telling them you can't do self care, you can't think straight, you think you messed up your meds and you're losing your mind. You need someone to make sure you take your meds properly and take care of yourself until you feel better. Some psych wards require you to make a direct threat to be admitted, but that has the consequence of making it harder to get back out again.

 

Sorry that I didn't have better news. You are better off finding someone to be of support to you at home. I also recommend the resources on recovery-road.org. There's stuff on there about how a friend or family member can be supportive of someone going through withdrawal. http://www.recovery-road.org/dos-and-donts  I think it is important to get someone like that on board with you. I hope you have someone like that.

 

Wishing you a better tomorrow!

 

Man, that's EXACTLY what I have learned, Gardener. Those places are hard core!!! Cold turkey and then throw you on a couple other drugs in huge amounts to ward off seizures. I've done TONS of research on these places lately while trying to find someone to write my scripts so I can continue my taper. The LAST thing I would do is tell them about my MT. Obviously, my experience with these detox places has been horrible, at best. I've looked into many in the surrounding areas of Savannah, Ga and Charleston, SC along with areas around Hilton Head Island, SC. I'd tell anybody trying to get off a benzo to stay away from those places. I don't care how pretty their brochures are!! Just an opinion, of course.

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

Hi Gardner,

 

1.  I'm trying to get the liquid Xanax (alprazolam)

2.  Yes, chemist the same as pharmacist.

3.  The issue with diluting the Intensol with water is with "precipitation". He explained, and shared his experience with other clients using Intensol lorazepam (same list of ingredients but lorazeoam instead of alprazolam) that adding water disrupted the suspension of the drug, producing a cloudy product with inaccurate amounts of the drug in the liquid per draw. That is why he is suggesting diluting with almond oil or another oil. He said he would contact other labs, chemists etc to confirm.

 

Gardener, I questioned him on stirring to prior dosing. He felt that it was too inaccurate when working with such tiny dosages. His preference is oil. At this time, however, a mute point in that my Pdoc is not on board. I wanted to share this information, however, knowing that others, like you, are diluting with water.

 

Anne, do you have thoughts on this issue?

 

Marija

 

That's interesting. My dilution is not cloudy. I would be curious to know what he finds out. Tell him my diluted alprazolam intensol has not turned cloudy, at least not yet. This is my second batch. I could easily use glycol instead of water. Oil sounds hard to work with. It clings to everything. I would think you would have trouble with the oil clinging to the container and part of the dose clinging, too. Has this guy ever washed greasy dishes?

 

I will ask about the cloudiness.

Almond oil does not stick per say. It holds the suspension from what he should me.

 

Yes, please tell him my alprazolam intensol diluted to 10% with water is not cloudy and I have kept it at room temperature, about 75 degrees F for at least 5 days.

[[an...]]

Buddies,

Just spoke with my Pdoc and chemist.

Pdoc is not ready to script Intensol but would consider it if the chemist will confirm the details of dilution.

The chemist is concerned about the precipitation of diluting the Intensol with water. He is suggesting using almond oil or glycol to prevent the water precipitation leading to inaccurate alprazolam dosing.

For now, I am restricted to moving forward with MT capsules. He will reduce from .642 to .63.

I posted earlier, but no response, on my concern that the alprazolam raw material expired in 11/2014. The chemist feels, in his experience, that it is still stable.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Marija

Hi Marija,

 

Many drugs are still stable years after the expiration date. The expiration date is the last date that the drug manufacturer will guarantee full potency of the drug.  Full potency can be down to 90% of the original.  The potency will also depend on how the drug is stored. Light, fluctuations in temperature, moisture can cause a drug to lose potency more quickly.

 

I read your other post from today, and I do not understand why it would cost you more money for the pharmacy to order in more of the drug to replace the expired drug.  A pharmacy should not be dispensing expired drugs.  At the same time, I have taken lorazepam well after its expiration date (a couple of years in one case) and had no problems.  It just depends on the drug.  I know that nitroglycerin decomposes very quickly and should never be used after the expiration date.  My father, who has a heart condition, found that out the hard way.

 

As far as the worry of precipitation of the drug if water is added, that is possibility.  From what I have read, the directions say that the intensol can be mixed with water and other liquids like juices. I would think the intensol can be diluted to a certain extent (there is probably a limit as to how much water can be added) without having to worry about precipitation of the active ingredient.  Again, precipitation is possible and is dependent on many factors.  Temperature is a big one.  Does the intensol need to be refrigerated? 

 

Your pharmacist says he has observed precipitation with the intensol when mixed with water? Cloudiness does indicate that something is precipitating out of solution.

 

Anne, The intensol must be kept at room temperature 59-86 degrees F. The directions say it can be mixed and then must be consumed immediately. The drug company would not deviate from that. Is the pharmacist correct that propylene glycol would be a better diluter than water? If my dilution is clear does that mean it has not precipitated? Thanks.

 

Thanks Gardner.  So, temperature should not be a problem. Propylene glycol is used in the intensol as a solvent, so yes it is a possibility.  If you see now particles and your solution is not cloudy, the drug has not precipitated out of solution.

 

Anne

 

I meant to say that if you see no particles (not now particles) and there is no cloudiness, there should be no problem with precipitation.  I would also shake the liquid before removing doses. Just a precaution. I know the company says to take the dose right away when mixed with water, but I would assume it is safe up to about a week. I am a bit confused, because I do not know about the solubility of Xanax. I assumed it was soluble in the propylene glycol, but Marija's pharmacist said it is a suspension?  This would mean that is not dissolved and just suspended in the mixture.  Sorry, but I am not familiar with the intensol. Maybe SG or someone else can chime in here.

[[ga...]]

Does anyone know if detox or inpatient psychiatric facilities take patients who are micro tapering? I feel like i have lost my mind and in too of that having medical issues from what i believe to be the tapering.

 

I'm sorry to say that I have never heard of a psych facility or detox facility in the US that will help with tapering of any kind except rapid. One of our members has been looking for weeks for someone who will help him because his primary doctor cut off his script. The slowest taper any facility would do was all the way to zero in 6 weeks.

 

I have one suggestion that may or may not work. If you really feel you need to go inpatient, just try to stay there to stabilize at the dose you are on. Do not say you are trying to taper. I made the mistake of saying I was trying to taper and they took my med away and tried to c/t me. I asked to be discharged and was discharged AMA. After that, I called several other hospitals after that to ask what the h*** happened and if all hospitals would do that to me. They said it was a roll of the dice whenever you went inpatient. The suggestion I got from one hospital administrator is what I told you. Don't even mention tapering or they may try to rapid taper you. I suggest you try telling them you can't do self care, you can't think straight, you think you messed up your meds and you're losing your mind. You need someone to make sure you take your meds properly and take care of yourself until you feel better. Some psych wards require you to make a direct threat to be admitted, but that has the consequence of making it harder to get back out again.

 

Sorry that I didn't have better news. You are better off finding someone to be of support to you at home. I also recommend the resources on recovery-road.org. There's stuff on there about how a friend or family member can be supportive of someone going through withdrawal. http://www.recovery-road.org/dos-and-donts  I think it is important to get someone like that on board with you. I hope you have someone like that.

 

Wishing you a better tomorrow!

 

Man, that's EXACTLY what I have learned, Gardener. Those places are hard core!!! Cold turkey and then throw you on a couple other drugs in huge amounts to ward off seizures. I've done TONS of research on these places lately while trying to find someone to write my scripts so I can continue my taper. The LAST thing I would do is tell them about my MT. Obviously, my experience with these detox places has been horrible, at best. I've looked into many in the surrounding areas of Savannah, Ga and Charleston, SC along with areas around Hilton Head Island, SC. I'd tell anybody trying to get off a benzo to stay away from those places. I don't care how pretty their brochures are!! Just an opinion, of course.

 

Jeff

 

Check out Benzos in the News: Big Benzo Payout. Guy got huge award for being damaged by c/t detox in UK! We need more of these pay outs!

[[an...]]

Buddies,

Just spoke with my Pdoc and chemist.

Pdoc is not ready to script Intensol but would consider it if the chemist will confirm the details of dilution.

The chemist is concerned about the precipitation of diluting the Intensol with water. He is suggesting using almond oil or glycol to prevent the water precipitation leading to inaccurate alprazolam dosing.

For now, I am restricted to moving forward with MT capsules. He will reduce from .642 to .63.

I posted earlier, but no response, on my concern that the alprazolam raw material expired in 11/2014. The chemist feels, in his experience, that it is still stable.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Marija

Hi Marija,

 

Many drugs are still stable years after the expiration date. The expiration date is the last date that the drug manufacturer will guarantee full potency of the drug.  Full potency can be down to 90% of the original.  The potency will also depend on how the drug is stored. Light, fluctuations in temperature, moisture can cause a drug to lose potency more quickly.

 

I read your other post from today, and I do not understand why it would cost you more money for the pharmacy to order in more of the drug to replace the expired drug.  A pharmacy should not be dispensing expired drugs.  At the same time, I have taken lorazepam well after its expiration date (a couple of years in one case) and had no problems.  It just depends on the drug.  I know that nitroglycerin decomposes very quickly and should never be used after the expiration date.  My father, who has a heart condition, found that out the hard way.

 

As far as the worry of precipitation of the drug if water is added, that is possibility.  From what I have read, the directions say that the intensol can be mixed with water and other liquids like juices. I would think the intensol can be diluted to a certain extent (there is probably a limit as to how much water can be added) without having to worry about precipitation of the active ingredient.  Again, precipitation is possible and is dependent on many factors.  Temperature is a big one.  Does the intensol need to be refrigerated? 

 

Your pharmacist says he has observed precipitation with the intensol when mixed with water? Cloudiness does indicate that something is precipitating out of solution.

 

Anne, The intensol must be kept at room temperature 59-86 degrees F. The directions say it can be mixed and then must be consumed immediately. The drug company would not deviate from that. Is the pharmacist correct that propylene glycol would be a better diluter than water? If my dilution is clear does that mean it has not precipitated? Thanks.

 

Thanks Gardner.  So, temperature should not be a problem. Propylene glycol is used in the intensol as a solvent, so yes it is a possibility.  If you see now particles and your solution is not cloudy, the drug has not precipitated out of solution.

 

Anne

 

Would you say that propylene glycol would be a better safe than sorry option?

So far I have not felt any worse or any better since I have been diluting.

Can you understand why the Valium would be precipitating and the Xanax not?

Or might it be that people are refrigerating it or something?

This is mysterious.

 

I thought we were talking about Xanax.  The liquid form.  The valium should be okay. It is soluble in both the alcohol and the propylene glycol. I believe Builder used a liquid valium.

Gardner, I think you should be okay diluting with water. Again, you are not seeing any signs of precipitation. 

[[ga...]]

 

Hi Marija,

 

Many drugs are still stable years after the expiration date. The expiration date is the last date that the drug manufacturer will guarantee full potency of the drug.  Full potency can be down to 90% of the original.  The potency will also depend on how the drug is stored. Light, fluctuations in temperature, moisture can cause a drug to lose potency more quickly.

 

I read your other post from today, and I do not understand why it would cost you more money for the pharmacy to order in more of the drug to replace the expired drug.  A pharmacy should not be dispensing expired drugs.  At the same time, I have taken lorazepam well after its expiration date (a couple of years in one case) and had no problems.  It just depends on the drug.  I know that nitroglycerin decomposes very quickly and should never be used after the expiration date.  My father, who has a heart condition, found that out the hard way.

 

As far as the worry of precipitation of the drug if water is added, that is possibility.  From what I have read, the directions say that the intensol can be mixed with water and other liquids like juices. I would think the intensol can be diluted to a certain extent (there is probably a limit as to how much water can be added) without having to worry about precipitation of the active ingredient.  Again, precipitation is possible and is dependent on many factors.  Temperature is a big one.  Does the intensol need to be refrigerated? 

 

Your pharmacist says he has observed precipitation with the intensol when mixed with water? Cloudiness does indicate that something is precipitating out of solution.

 

Anne, The intensol must be kept at room temperature 59-86 degrees F. The directions say it can be mixed and then must be consumed immediately. The drug company would not deviate from that. Is the pharmacist correct that propylene glycol would be a better diluter than water? If my dilution is clear does that mean it has not precipitated? Thanks.

 

Thanks Gardner.  So, temperature should not be a problem. Propylene glycol is used in the intensol as a solvent, so yes it is a possibility.  If you see now particles and your solution is not cloudy, the drug has not precipitated out of solution.

 

Anne

 

I meant to say that if you see no particles (not now particles) and there is no cloudiness, there should be no problem with precipitation.  I would also shake the liquid before removing doses. Just a precaution. I know the company says to take the dose right away when mixed with water, but I would assume it is safe up to about a week. I am a bit confused, because I do not know about the solubility of Xanax. I assumed it was soluble in the propylene glycol, but Marija's pharmacist said it is a suspension?  This would mean that is not dissolved and just suspended in the mixture.  Sorry, but I am not familiar with the intensol. Maybe SG or someone else can chime in here.

 

I knew that! Those auto-corrects are awful!

 

Is Marija's pharmacist talking about a Valium intensol? I have to double check that. EDIT: ATIVAN  By the way, the alprazolam intensol is NOT a suspension. The box says solution. The Xanax is in solution.

 

What I can't understand is why adding more water would make it precipitate? Is this something a layperson could understand?

[[ga...]]

 

I thought we were talking about Xanax.  The liquid form.  The valium should be okay. It is soluble in both the alcohol and the propylene glycol. I believe Builder used a liquid valium.

Gardner, I think you should be okay diluting with water. Again, you are not seeing any signs of precipitation.

 

Yes, I am taking liquid Xanax. I wasn't sure if M's pharmacist was talking about his experience with the liquid X or the liquid V. I believe they are the only 2 intensols. Need to double check that….

 

Oops. He is talking about lorazepam (Ativan). I get my -pams mixed up!

 

From M: He explained, and shared his experience with other clients using Intensol lorazepam (same list of ingredients but lorazeoam instead of alprazolam) that adding water disrupted the suspension of the drug, producing a cloudy product with inaccurate amounts of the drug in the liquid per draw. That is why he is suggesting diluting with almond oil or another oil. He said he would contact other labs, chemists etc to confirm.

[[Ul...]]

1)  O.K., I know Sharkey answered this for me once before, but my brain is on a permanent vacation with no intention of returning.  Anyway, he told me that he often put his pill in 2ml of vodka and let it sit overnight. I've done that twice now. One time, I had no problems...I've fixed my dose and off I went. I did it another time (since I'm traveling some and have to take my dose with me...have dose, will travel  ), and when I went into the kitchen the next morning, the little cup I've used since starting all of this, was empty. Everything had evaporated. Really weird. Any thoughts?

 

2)  That's one thing. Here's the other: If I only need to put one or two mL's in a jar and take with me, is it really O.K. to put that tiny little amount in the jar and THEN add some water before putting the top on? Am I messing with the solubility or anything by doing this? I ask because if you put a milliliter of the prepared dose in a small jar...that's just not much stuff in there! How do you drink THAT?? Is it O.K. for me to put the 1mL dose in the jar, add a little water, and then cap the jar and take off (and drink my dose later in the day as needed)? How does ANYBODY deal with such a tiny dose when you have to take it with you for later use? It's not realistic to put 1mL of the solution/dose in a small jar and actually "drink" it later. How do you do it?

 

I'll be in Savannah all day tomorrow knocking on doors and doing what I can to find someone to write scripts for me. I look forward to seeing your answers to the above when I get home tomorrow night.

 

Thanks, gang!

 

Jeff

[[ga...]]

1)  O.K., I know Sharkey answered this for me once before, but my brain is on a permanent vacation with no intention of returning.  Anyway, he told me that he often put his pill in 2ml of vodka and let it sit overnight. I've done that twice now. One time, I had no problems...I've fixed my dose and off I went. I did it another time (since I'm traveling some and have to take my dose with me...have dose, will travel  ), and when I went into the kitchen the next morning, the little cup I've used since starting all of this, was empty. Everything had evaporated. Really weird. Any thoughts?

 

2)  That's one thing. Here's the other: If I only need to put one or two mL's in a jar and take with me, is it really O.K. to put that tiny little amount in the jar and THEN add some water before putting the top on? Am I messing with the solubility or anything by doing this? I ask because if you put a milliliter of the prepared dose in a small jar...that's just not much stuff in there! How do you drink THAT?? Is it O.K. for me to put the 1mL dose in the jar, add a little water, and then cap the jar and take off (and drink my dose later in the day as needed)? How does ANYBODY deal with such a tiny dose when you have to take it with you for later use? It's not realistic to put 1mL of the solution/dose in a small jar and actually "drink" it later. How do you do it?

 

I'll be in Savannah all day tomorrow knocking on doors and doing what I can to find someone to write scripts for me. I look forward to seeing your answers to the above when I get home tomorrow night.

 

Thanks, gang!

 

Jeff

 

1. No lid on the container? Alcohol evaporates really easily but where the drug went….  I think after that discussion, somebody said overnight was not necessary. Anybody remember?

 

2. I put my diluted intensol in the little bottle. If I have to carry it with me, I sometimes add a little water before I leave. I don't add cold water, just room temp or tap (and it's summer here). Sometimes I add the water right before I drink the dose. I always drink, add more water, drink again. I am female so can carry a little plastic bottle of water in my purse so I don't have to go looking for water. You could also carry water in a syringe with a cap. You do want to add more water and drink again so that you are sure nothing is left behind in the tiny bottle.

 

Syringes I have used to carry water:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00OABXLOM?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

 

[[ga...]]

 

I thought we were talking about Xanax.  The liquid form.  The valium should be okay. It is soluble in both the alcohol and the propylene glycol. I believe Builder used a liquid valium.

Gardner, I think you should be okay diluting with water. Again, you are not seeing any signs of precipitation.

 

Ah, maybe it was builder I was thinking of. At any rate, we are talking about Xanax but M's pharmacist is talking about his experience with Ativan, even though she is asking him about Xanax.

[Guest [Ma...]]

Buddies,

Just spoke with my Pdoc and chemist.

Pdoc is not ready to script Intensol but would consider it if the chemist will confirm the details of dilution.

The chemist is concerned about the precipitation of diluting the Intensol with water. He is suggesting using almond oil or glycol to prevent the water precipitation leading to inaccurate alprazolam dosing.

For now, I am restricted to moving forward with MT capsules. He will reduce from .642 to .63.

I posted earlier, but no response, on my concern that the alprazolam raw material expired in 11/2014. The chemist feels, in his experience, that it is still stable.

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Marija

Hi Marija,

 

Many drugs are still stable years after the expiration date. The expiration date is the last date that the drug manufacturer will guarantee full potency of the drug.  Full potency can be down to 90% of the original.  The potency will also depend on how the drug is stored. Light, fluctuations in temperature, moisture can cause a drug to lose potency more quickly.

 

I read your other post from today, and I do not understand why it would cost you more money for the pharmacy to order in more of the drug to replace the expired drug.  A pharmacy should not be dispensing expired drugs.  At the same time, I have taken lorazepam well after its expiration date (a couple of years in one case) and had no problems.  It just depends on the drug.  I know that nitroglycerin decomposes very quickly and should never be used after the expiration date.  My father, who has a heart condition, found that out the hard way.

 

As far as the worry of precipitation of the drug if water is added, that is possibility.  From what I have read, the directions say that the intensol can be mixed with water and other liquids like juices. I would think the intensol can be diluted to a certain extent (there is probably a limit as to how much water can be added) without having to worry about precipitation of the active ingredient.  Again, precipitation is possible and is dependent on many factors.  Temperature is a big one.  Does the intensol need to be refrigerated? 

 

Your pharmacist says he has observed precipitation with the intensol when mixed with water? Cloudiness does indicate that something is precipitating out of solution.

 

Anne, The intensol must be kept at room temperature 59-86 degrees F. The directions say it can be mixed and then must be consumed immediately. The drug company would not deviate from that. Is the pharmacist correct that propylene glycol would be a better diluter than water? If my dilution is clear does that mean it has not precipitated? Thanks.

 

Thanks Gardner.  So, temperature should not be a problem. Propylene glycol is used in the intensol as a solvent, so yes it is a possibility.  If you see now particles and your solution is not cloudy, the drug has not precipitated out of solution.

 

Anne

 

Would you say that propylene glycol would be a better safe than sorry option?

So far I have not felt any worse or any better since I have been diluting.

Can you understand why the Valium Ativan would be precipitating and the Xanax not?

Or might it be that people are refrigerating it or something?

This is mysterious.

 

Anne,

The chemist I work with is a compounder, able to purchase bulk raw chemicals from specific vendors. I am told that as of last year, all but 1 of his vendors carry bulk alprazolam. The one that carries it has increased his prices substantially. My compounder has shared with me his purchasing options and prices.

Thank you for your thoughts on the above questions. If/when my Pdoc agrees with using a liquid, I will ask to have the batch tested for stability & potency.

Thank you.

Marija