Finasteride during withdrawal

[[ro...]]

Ryan, I had a significant amount of shedding one month prior to stopping finasteride.  To be honest, I havent noticed much shedding at all after stopping it.  Looks like the few months of restarting the rogaine foam has covered the ole bald spot quite a bit, but the generalized thinning on top and front remain stable so far.  DO you know how long it takes for the massive fallout to appear?

 

No dumb questions at all, Rhino.  Heck, our physicians dont even have a clue lol (that is why I havent bothered going to one since Nov 09 at only 2 months off as all they wanted to do was add more psychotropics... no thanks!).  You are right, it appears so far that supplementing with benzo antagonists during tapering is the biggest possible risk (including suicide). 

[[rh...]]

i was not really asking about the risk associated with taking pregnenolone, i was saying that if we stop the fin - then our natural levels of pregnelone would go up - would this be dangerous?

[[ro...]]

Hard to say, but my guess is no.  The quoted studies involved supplementing those who were not on fin, therefore they presumably already had normal levels of pregnenolone with supplementation placing them above normal levels.  When we stop fin, our levels should return to a normal baseline.

[[...]]

I am trying to understand the difference between pregnenelone and allopregnenaolone.  I don't think that finasteride inhibits pregnenelone, however, it definitely inhibits allopregnenaolone.  This stuff is so confusing, I cannot decide which way to go.  I know that I was feeling great in April while taking a whopping 5 mg dose of finasteride, so it seems that healing is possible even while taking the drug.  I have found a neuroendocrinologist in New York who specializes in this kind of stuff and has written some interesting stuff recently about Finasteride.  I am thinking about going to see him and maybe he can help me sort this out. 

 

This could end up being a blessing in disguise.  The more research I do, the more I am reading about long-term symptoms, connections to dementia, and on and on.  I'd hate to be taking this stuff 40 years from now and discover that it is strongly linked to Alzheimer's.

[[rh...]]

that would be awsome if you could talk to that guy in new york - dont know where you live - but that would be awsome. 

 

ryan - did you ever send me the info for those tests?

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I got a phone appointment this morning with that doctor.  I will ask him exactly which hormones he thinks we should test.  I will post that along with a full summary of our conversation.  Are there any questions you think I should ask him?

 

-Ryan

[[rh...]]

great!

 

here is a quick brain dump of questions:

 

- does he know if fin with a benzo causes problems

- if going through benzo wds - will quiting fin help or possible hurt

- if taking fin for 10 years w no problems - how likely that a problem will arise when benzo entroduces

- chemically what is the fin doing that may be creating or compunding our problems, lowering certain levels

- does he know if these problems would be permenant

- what suppliments if any can we take to help (any risks or side effects of each)

- if the fin is prossible creating problems - how long would we have to be off to notice improvement

- how "real" are the fin problems we see in the internet (keeping in mind noone belives our benzo problems)

- does the fin cause problems when using or after quiting?

- will a brain mri help show anything?

- besides hormones is there anything else we can test - what would those tests show

- any levels like cortisol that we could try and lower to help - if so how

 

that is kinda what comes to mind.  i look forward to hearing from you - the more detail the better.

 

 

if you can send us a PM after you talk to him that would be great - so that we know to come see what you found out.

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Good list.  My call is at noon, CST.  I am in Austin, TX but the doctor is in New York.  I'll update you shortly.

[[...]]

Alright, Dr. Jacobs was very insightful.  Here are the main points of our conversation:

 

- Finasteride definitely causes drops in neurohormones that are strong modulators of GABA-A receptor functionality (allopregnanolone is 100 times stronger than benzodiazepines).  A healthy brain will *usually* compensate for this, but when the receptors are compromised by chronic benzo use, the brain is being deprived of its natural mechanisms that reset normal activity (the neurosteroids).  He cannot say if this is the only cause of the more severe symptoms, but he definitely believes we should NOT continue to take them until our brains have recovered.

 

- He does not believe the problems will be permanent.  If all goes as planned, he thinks that the effects of the finasteride will subside in 30 days and the brain will go back to normal.  This does not mean that the benzo withdrawal sickness will be over, just that the neurosteroids in the brain will return to normal.  Sometimes this seems to take longer, although he has never measured allopregnanolone in a blood test.  I am going to be his first patient to have this test.

 

- He has theories about people who claim to have long-term problems.  Most of them complain of sexual dysfunction.  Others complain of "brain fog" that started when they began taking propecia.  He does not seem to think that we fall in this category if we did not have those side effects, but it's difficult to know for sure. 

 

- He said that he would consider reinstating the finasteride after recovery, but that it should be done carefully.  He does not have issues with other remedies (rogaine, nizoral, saw palmetto, etc) but he said that we should be very careful and introduce them one at a time to make sure we are not hurting ourselves.

 

He is sending me a prescription for the hormones he wants to test.  I will post all of them as soon as I get it.  The list was too long to write down.

 

-Ryan

[[rh...]]

Ryan - thanks for the info.  i am not so sure how to think about it. 

 

Fin reduces our Allopregnanolone - right?  So that coupled with our use of Benzos possibly screwed things up.  Did he confirm that when we stop our Allopreg levels will go back to normal?  i think this is what you meant when you wrote that the neurosteriods in the brain would go back to normal.  Did he seem confident about this?

 

I have brain fog - but did not have it till after stopping the benzo.  Have either of you had brain fog?  Still have it?  Did it go away? 

 

Is he sending you a prescription for hormones to take - or a list of hormones to have tested. 

 

How did you find this guy?  Did you have to pay him for this call?  Think he would want another patient?

 

Would you be willing to talk about this more via e-mail or phone call.  I am in Texas too.

[[ro...]]

Thx so much for the details Ryan.  I am sure that it was hard to stay calm and focus on remembering the conversation with the specialist while w/d sx's are in full bloom.  Rhino, you supplied a great list of questions indeed.  I also developed brain fog with w/d but it mainly lasted for about 3 months or so.  Now it returns occasionally, but not as severely; really only experience it after taking a nap, therefore I avoid them if possible.  Returning to work early in recovery forced many one on one social interactions, which seemed to have helped clear my mind, allowing the old Rob to start coming back.

[[...]]

rhino -

 

Send me a PM with your phone number in it.  I will give you a call in a bit.

 

-Ryan

[[rh...]]

it is nice to have two others to discuss this with.

 

i wish i had thought to ask this earlier - but i wonder his opinion on taking asprin or similar

 

Roman - i am happy to hear that your cog fog went away at three months.  it is drinking me crazy.  i feel like i am walking around in a daze half the time.  did you do anything to help with this or did it just get better w time?  you have been off fin for a month now - so theoretically you should start to feel better.  i hope for your sake and ours that this happens.  can you give us an idea of how much you have improved over the past months - was it better than previous months?

 

[[ro...]]

Same here Rhino, good not to be alone in this.  Cog fog made me feel stoned 24/7 but decreased after I gradually resumed working and having to use my professional knowledge (while working through the ever-present anxiety and waves of panic).  I also played a lot of games(electronic yahtzee and deal or no deal) and easy puzzles (crossword, word jumbles, etc).  It was so hard to comprehend reading for the first few months off that I literally checked out children's books with the big pictures on each page for practice.  I love self-help titles, but could only listen to those on CD as their reading level was too much for me for quite a while.  Engaging in daily conversation whether on the phone or in person also helps.  Realize that I merely pushed to the edge, but never forced it.  Hope some of these help!

 

As for being 1 month off fin, I have seen definite improvements over the past month, including decrease in anxiety, headache frequency, excessive thirst and constant need for food to prevent dizziness/vibrations.  Improvements started about 2 weeks after stopping the med.  I would be remiss if I failed to comment that a rare wave of panic did return at 30 days off, lasting about 2 days (pretty short for my w/d history).  It was weird because the anxiety was noticeably decreased all the while.  I tried to imagine my GABA receptors resetting themselves and rearranging the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle, searching for a perfect fit!  I am feeling better today, thank the Lord.  I really feel that the next month will bring a lot of needed healing and I am ready for it

 

[[rh...]]

thanks for the reply -

 

your cog fog sounded really bad.  reading is a bit challenging depending on what it is.  work has been very hard for me. 

 

i hope that the three of us have found the root of our problems - we need to stay in touch and work through this.

[[...]]

Hey Guys,

 

For those interested, here are the hormones Dr. Jacobs is testing me for:

 

androstanediol

IGF-1

FSH

LH

DHT

TSH

Bioavailable Testosterone

prolactin

ultrasensitive estradiol

allopregnanolone

cortisol

DHEAS

ACTH

free t4

 

If any of these are low, we are going to retest in a few weeks to see if things come back online post-finasteride.  We will also have the option of supplementation, if necessary. 

 

-Ryan

 

 

 

 

[[...]]

Hey Guys,

 

My research has led me to a number of people who seem to be using topical finasteride solutions because they cannot tolerate side effects of oral fin.  There are many claims that the drug does work topically without changing the body's systemic hormonal balances.  Interestingly, Merck have recently applied for a patent on topical propecia so someone there must believe it works.  It was also stated in there initial research for oral propecia that it does work when applied directly to the scalp.  I am going to continue to research this and I will run it by Dr. Jacobs.  This could be a decent solution for us...

 

-Ryan

[[...]]

Found this tidbit on the FDA studies of finasteride 5 mg:

 

"Other Concomitant Therapy: Although specific interaction studies were not performed, Proscar was concomitantly used in clinical studies with acetaminophen, acetylsalicylic acid, α-blockers, angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors, analgesics, anti-convulsants, beta-adrenergic blocking agents, diuretics, calcium channel blockers, cardiac nitrates, HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), benzodiazepines, H2 antagonists and quinolone anti-infectives without evidence of clinically significant adverse interactions."

 

That is somewhat reassuring.  Of course, this did not study how long-term usage of the drug would effect benzodiazepine withdrawal, but at least we know they can be used concurrently without significant issues.

 

-Ryan

[[ro...]]

Thx for posting Ryan.  Is this reassurance provided by the same FDA that says that it is safe to use benzos for extended periods, need minimal tapering and that withdrawal lasts less than 30 days?  Sorry, but I am not comforted lol

[[...]]

Thx for posting Ryan.  Is this reassurance provided by the same FDA that says that it is safe to use benzos for extended periods, need minimal tapering and that withdrawal lasts less than 30 days?  Sorry, but I am not comforted lol

 

Good point.  Although, I am just reading the results of the study.  They didn't say it was OK to take the two together, just that the test subjects did not report adverse reactions.

[[ro...]]

Ryan, Have you stopped taking fin or did you just skip a few doses?  The topical sounds ideal, but I will even wait on that for a while after this w/d has worked its way through.  Are guys using it topically now by just crushing the tabs and adding a bit of water? 

[[...]]

Ryan, Have you stopped taking fin or did you just skip a few doses?  The topical sounds ideal, but I will even wait on that for a while after this w/d has worked its way through.  Are guys using it topically now by just crushing the tabs and adding a bit of water? 

 

I stopped completely about 2 weeks ago.  I also realized that the minoxidil I have been using is making my heart palpitations and tremors worse, so I am using nothing at all right now.  I think I *may* try finasteride topically after a couple of months have past if I can get some reassurance that the systemic effects are minimal.  You can buy a topical solution online or you can make it yourself by crushing pills.  Right now, I feel like just forgetting about my hair.  I'd rather be bald and healed than to deal with this insanity any longer.

 

By the way, are you still feeling improvement after stopping the fin?

[[ro...]]

Congrats on dropping the finasteride.  I know that it is a big step to take for those of us trying to hang on to all the hair we have.  Perhaps image is a bit vain, but I think that it is natural to want to look and feel our best.  I do agree, however,  that healing is more important than having the locks of a romance novel cover model lol.  It has now been 5 weeks since I dropped fin.  The first month off really was a time of much improvement.  Not that you or anyone else will have the same experience, but at one month off I then experienced a wave of symptoms worse than any in several months.  It has lasted about a week so far, but today has given me hope once again that everything is starting to lighten up.  Dont let this scare you as we are all different.  At the same time, I have had several new stressors in my life and the relapse could solely be due to those... or related to nothing at all!  How can you not love the ambiguity of withdrawal? lol.  Nevertheless, I am grateful to be drug-free and will live one day at a time until my full healing is complete.

 

[[rh...]]

roman - glad your sxs have lightened up a bit.  hope that it comtnues.  btw - i quit finasteride too.  about 10 days ago.  i have been feeling a bit better since then.  still have anxiety at 6am and cog fog with blurry vision most of the day - but it does seem like it has been getting better.

 

keep in touch

[[ro...]]

That is awesome Rhino, glad to hear of your improvement.  We are all three now benzo-free and fin-free!  I am sure that we have made the right decisions in stopping any unessential oral medications.  Now that we are totally free, let the healing accelerate.  I am doing much better today than the past week and once again have hope for total recovery.