2012 Study: What is the difference between dependence and withdrawal reactions?

[[La...]]

It seems there's such little agreement on the facts by those who prescribe the medications. Obviously, everyone is different, i.e. DNA-wise, in terms of how they metabolize medications, but there's A LOT that's been written already about benzodiazepine withdrawal and its dangers.

 

"First Do No Harm" is an important concept to bear in mind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[[Wi...]]

Malcolm Lader was writing in 1981 about the dangers including brain damage...

 

http://www.benzo.org.uk/lader2.htm

 

This was written in 1987, I was started on Lorazepam around 2000.  They already knew.

 

"When somebody comes into my office and says that they've been trying to stop their lorazepam, my heart sinks because I know I shall have twice as much of a problem as getting them off, say, Valium: the symptoms are more severe, they're more persistent, more bizarre, and people are much more distressed by them... I feel that this compound should not now be prescribed because of the problems which may arise in some patients." Professor Malcolm Lader, member of the Committee on the Review of Medicines, Brass Tacks, BBC2, October 20, 1987."

[[La...]]

Yes, I've come across Dr. Malcolm Lader's name many times when researching this issue.

[[...]]

 

I went to see a new pdoc (I'd just moved to a new city) and he put me right back on Klonopin, Welbutrin, Trileptal, and another drug I can't remember. Never said one word about withdrawal effects. When it didn't work, he added Seroquel and I was subdued enough not to argue.

 

 

This is just heartbreaking, Mind ... "subdued enough not to argue" ... ouch, that hurt!

And you'd successfully taken yourself off everything already?  Ugh, I'm just so sorry, my friend, but you're doing it again and that's all that counts now.  NEVER AGAIN!

 

[Guest [Mi...]]

 

I went to see a new pdoc (I'd just moved to a new city) and he put me right back on Klonopin, Welbutrin, Trileptal, and another drug I can't remember. Never said one word about withdrawal effects. When it didn't work, he added Seroquel and I was subdued enough not to argue.

 

 

This is just heartbreaking, Mind ... "subdued enough not to argue" ... ouch, that hurt!

And you'd successfully taken yourself off everything already?  Ugh, I'm just so sorry, my friend, but you're doing it again and that's all that counts now.  NEVER AGAIN!

 

 

Thanks, abcd. I keep beating myself up and again and again because I was so weak and I willingly sought out a psychiatrist for my anxiety and depression. I had no idea about withdrawal effects.

 

I honestly believed there was a chemical imbalance. How messed up is that?

 

But I like your attitude, abcd - NEVER AGAIN!!!

[[...]]

Enough with the beating yourself up, what good is that doing?!  I'm working on that one too, I think we all are.

Yes, just NEVER AGAIN ... and that's all!

[[La...]]

No, Mind, you can NOT beat up on yourself about that! NO NO NO NO NO! There is NO WAY you could have known these things before you knew them. Impossible.

 

Geez, I was doing that too, so perhaps it's a benzo withdrawal effect!

[[Wi...]]

self blaming, low self confidence, low motivation, angst...and more...all a part of w/d for many.  Stress makes things more challenging.

[[La...]]

Just getting back to the original study....

 

I'm not able to put the whole text in, but what follows is the list of possible symptoms for benzodiazepine withdrawal that the researchers compiled from all the studies they compiled. In the actual study, there's a two-column list showing benzo withdrawal symptoms on the left and the corresponding symptoms for SSRI withdrawal on the right. They are very similar.

 

 

Benzodiazepines

 

Influenza-like symptoms

Diaphoresis, sweating, flushing

Headache

Fits, convulsions, seizure

Muscle aches, muscular pains

Fatigue, lack of energy, lethargy

Stiffness

Palpitations

Skin rash, itching

Abdominal pain, abdominal cramps

Nausea, vomiting, dry retchings

Loss of appetite, weight loss, anorexia

Diarrhoea, constipation

Sleep disturbance

Nightmares

Ataxia

Dizziness

Lightheadedness

Vertigo

Blurrred vision, difficulty in focusing

Sore eyes

Feeling of electric shocks, pins and needles

Numbness

Parasthesia, muscle twitches, tingling, altered sensation, fasciculation

Increased acuity to sound, smell, touch, pain, tinnitus, hyperosmia, photophobia, hyperaccusis

Altered taste, metallic taste in mouth

Jerks, myoclonic jerks, jumpiness

Tremor, tremulousness, shakiness

Incoordination, impaired perception of movement Imbalance, unsteady gait

Agitation

Aggression

Irritability, restlessness

Mental tension

Anxiety, panic attacks, agoraphobia, dysphoria

Depressed mood, depression

Nervousness

Depersonalization

Derealization, perceptual disturbance, paranoid reaction, delirium

Confusion

Poor concentration

Poor memory

Hallucination

Delirium

Psychosis

[Guest [Mi...]]

Just getting back to the original study....

 

I'm not able to put the whole text in, but what follows is the list of possible symptoms for benzodiazepine withdrawal that the researchers compiled from all the studies they compiled. In the actual study, there's a two-column list showing benzo withdrawal symptoms on the left and the corresponding symptoms for SSRI withdrawal on the right. They are very similar.

 

 

Benzodiazepines

 

Influenza-like symptoms

Diaphoresis, sweating, flushing

Headache

Fits, convulsions, seizure

Muscle aches, muscular pains

Fatigue, lack of energy, lethargy

Stiffness

Palpitations

Skin rash, itching

Abdominal pain, abdominal cramps

Nausea, vomiting, dry retchings

Loss of appetite, weight loss, anorexia

Diarrhoea, constipation

Sleep disturbance

Nightmares

Ataxia

Dizziness

Lightheadedness

Vertigo

Blurrred vision, difficulty in focusing

Sore eyes

Feeling of electric shocks, pins and needles

Numbness

Parasthesia, muscle twitches, tingling, altered sensation, fasciculation

Increased acuity to sound, smell, touch, pain, tinnitus, hyperosmia, photophobia, hyperaccusis

Altered taste, metallic taste in mouth

Jerks, myoclonic jerks, jumpiness

Tremor, tremulousness, shakiness

Incoordination, impaired perception of movement Imbalance, unsteady gait

Agitation

Aggression

Irritability, restlessness

Mental tension

Anxiety, panic attacks, agoraphobia, dysphoria

Depressed mood, depression

Nervousness

Depersonalization

Derealization, perceptual disturbance, paranoid reaction, delirium

Confusion

Poor concentration

Poor memory

Hallucination

Delirium

Psychosis

 

Hi, Lapis. I'm confused. So SSRI withdrawal also has the above symptoms?

[[La...]]

Almost all of the symptoms are the same in the two-column section. Quite unbelievable! Having lived through both, I can say, yes, the experiences have been quite similar --- similarly horrible. But I think this dizziness that I have is still from the benzos, which preceded the SSRI. The hyper-sensitivity occurs with benzos but not SSRIs. And there are a couple things that happen with SSRIs but not benzos. But for the most part, it looks like twin columns of symptoms.

 

I would put both columns up, but the copy-and-paste function doesn't work like that.

[Guest [Mi...]]

Almost all of the symptoms are the same in the two-column section. Quite unbelievable! Having lived through both, I can say, yes, the experiences have been quite similar --- similarly horrible. But I think this dizziness that I have is still from the benzos, which preceded the SSRI. The hyper-sensitivity occurs with benzos but not SSRIs. And there are a couple things that happen with SSRIs but not benzos. But for the most part, it looks like twin columns of symptoms.

 

I would put both columns up, but the copy-and-paste function doesn't work like that.

 

Unbelievable. Dr. David Healy has stated that the SSRI's are a bigger problem than anyone ever knew. Guess this is what he was talking about.

[[La...]]

I'm not sure about the possible time frame for each of the withdrawals, though. It seems -- at least, for me -- that the benzo withdrawal can go on longer, but I'm not sure if there's documentation for that in the literature. Because I was on two medications, and because they can interact, things are a little fuzzy as to what's causing what. I have a feeling it's the same for others too. We're not petri dishes, we're people! So each person's metabolism and DNA and particular sensitivity plays into medication reactions and interactions.

 

Here are the two last sections of the study:

 

Limitations of the study

There are few studies that report on the frequency and

severity of the symptoms after withdrawal of SSRIs and

benzodiazepines, and we could therefore only compare

the type of symptoms. When comparing the two drug

classes, it should be borne in mind that the individual

drugs have different half-lives. For example, lorazepam

has a short half-life compared to diazepam, and fluoxetine

has a long half-life compared to paroxetine,which has

the consequence that patients experience fewer withdrawal

symptoms from interrupted fluoxetine treatment

than for interrupted paroxetine treatment, as shown by

Rosenbaum et al. [54].We did not include ICD-9 in our

analysis because drug dependence is vaguely defined and

could not add any value to our study.

Different scales and questionnaires focus on different

symptoms. The findings seem to be somewhat robust, as

so many studies describe very similar symptoms. For

example, the typical SSRI withdrawal syndrome as

described by Haddad [6] is quite similar to the typical

benzodiazepine dependence syndrome described by

Lader [55]. Althoughwe performed a thorough literature

search, including scrutinizing reference lists in identified

papers, literature searches always have limitations, e.g.

due to limitations in databases, limitations in search

terms and access to documents. Hence, we cannot preclude

that we have missed relevant references.

 

 

CONCLUSION

 

The withdrawal reactions to SSRIs were very similar to

those for benzodiazepines. It therefore makes no sense to

describe only the latter as dependence symptoms.

[[...]]

Here's another really good one featuring a whole bunch of experts.

 

"Psychiatry Exposed" (full length) "Experts Speak"

 

 

FYI, my w/d experiences with AD and benzos have been very different.  The AD was mainly mental and this time it's physical sxs.  Some overlap for sure but for the most part a very different experience!

[[...]]

Wow, listen to this one.  More of the same, except this is the first time I've heard any direct talk of holding individual company executives to task!

 

People & Power - Drug Money

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TwdsYVHjGA

[[Mo...]]

Wow, listen to this one.  More of the same, except this is the first time I've heard any direct talk of holding individual company executives to task!

 

People & Power - Drug Money

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TwdsYVHjGA

 

Wow, Wow, Wow abc, what an eye opener, FRAUD ,  FRAUD, FRAUD, worse than the MAFIA.

Pharma has corrupted Healthcare, makes me wanna vomit.

 

I found out that Seroquel (Quetiapine) can be a killer drug, overhere they give it to

old folks in nursing homes. 

 

All you got to do , prescribe them Seroquel in high doses XR for a few months, stop the medication,

and you get a free bed in the nursing home , criminal. it happens here all the time,

one journalist has done research and brought it to public attention !

 

This has to stop, those Pharma Bosses ought to be castrated, period. >

thanks abc, I'm fuming.

[Guest [Mi...]]

 

Another informative video on how broken the system is. 

[[Mo...]]

 

Another informative video on how broken the system is. 

 

mindseeker thanks, thats a good video, I'm going to make my GP watch it ......unbelievable ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[[...]]

I won't watch that , because i will start murdering all those MF in my head....

i dont wanna mess more with my Karma :idiot:

[[Mo...]]

I wish there was a way how to find out if the GP, who is well known overhere

for prescribing Benzos and other junk, wish i could spy on him, if he does get

an handshake from Big Pharma.

 

he owns a couple of luxury houses, cars and has plenty of cash, the bastard.

surely not from running a GP office. He's family wasn't rich, so no inheritage.

 

He is a womanizer, so once i have recovered i might look for a pretty chick

to play an evil game in order to find out, hahahahahah  what a thought. :laugh: 

[Guest [Mi...]]

I wish there was a way how to find out if the GP, who is well known overhere

for prescribing Benzos and other junk, wish i could spy on him, if he does get

an handshake from Big Pharma.

 

he owns a couple of luxury houses, cars and has plenty of cash, the bastard.

surely not from running a GP office. He's family wasn't rich, so no inheritage.

 

He is a womanizer, so once i have recovered i might look for a pretty chick

to play an evil game in order to find out, hahahahahah  what a thought. :laugh: 

 

In the states, you actually can find out. Due to recent changes in the healthcare laws, doctors and pharma co's now have to disclose.

 

You can check on the ProPublica website's Dollars for Docs:

 

http://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

 

The moronic pdoc who put me back on my bipolar meds due to insomnia (including benzos) was "bought off" by Eli Lilly and Forest Lab. According to this website, he made about $50,000 during the couple of years I saw him.

 

Chemical imbalance? That's the most profitable "theory" out there.

[[co...]]

What I want to know is this: once you've been labelled with a psych diagnosis, how do you escape it?  You can't just 'undiagnose' yourself; it follows you wherever you go via your medical record.  Anywhere you go to get care, the practitioner will see right away that you're a ''head case" and dismisses anything you have to say.  There was a recent article on MiA that says those with a DSM diagnosis get even worse care than the 'normal' population-and that ain't sayin' much.

 

Having a very hard time with all this.  I've lost everything..it's the middle of the night and I'm not sleeping AGAIN because I can't believe my life has turned out the way it has, partly thanks to the pills and diagnosis that marginalized me and made me *other*. 

[[Mo...]]

I wish there was a way how to find out if the GP, who is well known overhere

for prescribing Benzos and other junk, wish i could spy on him, if he does get

an handshake from Big Pharma.

 

he owns a couple of luxury houses, cars and has plenty of cash, the bastard.

surely not from running a GP office. He's family wasn't rich, so no inheritage.

 

He is a womanizer, so once i have recovered i might look for a pretty chick

to play an evil game in order to find out, hahahahahah  what a thought. :laugh: 

 

In the states, you actually can find out. Due to recent changes in the healthcare laws, doctors and pharma co's now have to disclose.

 

You can check on the ProPublica website's Dollars for Docs:

 

http://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

 

The moronic pdoc who put me back on my bipolar meds due to insomnia (including benzos) was "bought off" by Eli Lilly and Forest Lab. According to this website, he made about $50,000 during the couple of years I saw him.

 

Chemical imbalance? That's the most profitable "theory" out there.

 

To my knowledge, there will be a change of healthcare law in 2016 overhere and

we will be able to check our Doctors too , takes a bloody long time for changes,

except for putting up taxes, then it goes fast.

 

$50.000 doesn't sound bad for a couple of years, nice pocket money for a

legal medical drug pusher ! no risk, no jail, nothing !

[[Mo...]]

What I want to know is this: once you've been labelled with a psych diagnosis, how do you escape it?  You can't just 'undiagnose' yourself; it follows you wherever you go via your medical record.  Anywhere you go to get care, the practitioner will see right away that you're a ''head case" and dismisses anything you have to say.  There was a recent article on MiA that says those with a DSM diagnosis get even worse care than the 'normal' population-and that ain't sayin' much.

 

Having a very hard time with all this.  I've lost everything..it's the middle of the night and I'm not sleeping AGAIN because I can't believe my life has turned out the way it has, partly thanks to the pills and diagnosis that marginalized me and made me *other*.

 

This is true but there is a way i am sure. I think best thing is to engage

a lawyer , he should know and one must apply in order to get your records removed.

A BB friend of mine had this done and was successful.

 

cookienose, i wouldn't worry and get stressed about it now, wait till you

have recovered . I can understand, it is a big deal i think.

[[Sw...]]

Wow, listen to this one.  More of the same, except this is the first time I've heard any direct talk of holding individual company executives to task!

 

People & Power - Drug Money

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TwdsYVHjGA

Can't view this video you tube says "The uploader has not made this video available in you country, sorry about that".  Hmmm I wonder why?