FLUMAZENIL AND BENZO WITHDRAWAL

[Guest [Th...]]

Sorry...I would say it didn't work for me as my main symptom was and still is insomnia.  My anxiety level did go down.  But still have sleep anxiety.  I would say it's NOT worth the money.  Get the RX cream and try that first.  My doc said if I put 2 "clicks" on every six hours I would be getting the same daily amount as the IV I was given for 1 week.  It comes in a tube and your turn the dial on the bottom of the tube 360 degrees and it clicks. 

[Guest [Th...]]

On second thought, I would not do this.  They put me on lyrica and phenobarbital which both act on Gabba receptors.  Now I am back in acute hell and not sleeping at all.  Huge waste of time and $$$

[[li...]]

This is confusing.

 

So, on top of this they put you on Lyrica and pheno ?

 

IMO, the odds of flumazenil working with adjunctive medication like Lyrica or possible pheno are much greater than just flumazenil. 'flumazenil only', is the local thing. Here, everything happens 30 years later ...

[[fa...]]

I've only talked to two people (Australians) that did flumazenil via stomach infusion, but both had only positive things to say about it.

 

The infusion route would be more direct and likely to yield better results. Creams and lozenges would have to perfuse more tissue, so the active components of the medication could be lost or diluted.

 

Still, you would HAVE to be post-taper and subjectively stable.

 

This is confusing.

 

So, on top of this they put you on Lyrica and pheno ?

 

IMO, the odds of flumazenil working with adjunctive medication like Lyrica or possible pheno are much greater than just flumazenil. 'flumazenil only', is the local thing. Here, everything happens 30 years later ...

 

Lib,

            Why do you think a flumazenil trial with gabaergic adjunctive medications would be more likely to work?

[[li...]]

faultandfracture,

 

While flumazenil acts on the 'benzo receptor' it is not likely that it will just fix everything ...

I don't know the mechanism of action of gabapentin and Lyrica by heart ... if I'm not mistaken something that protects against glutamate (or boosts GABA a bit) or even works on calcium channels (!) might improve the odds !

 

'Still, you would HAVE to be post-taper and subjectively stable. ' What makes you say that ? There is a local pilot, flumazenil only 6 days, and it is supposed to be a 'detox'. (!)

[[fa...]]

faultandfracture,

 

While flumazenil acts on the 'benzo receptor' it is not likely that it will just fix everything ...

I don't know the mechanism of action of gabapentin and Lyrica by heart ... if I'm not mistaken something that protects against glutamate (or boosts GABA a bit) or even works on calcium channels (!) might improve the odds !

 

'Still, you would HAVE to be post-taper and subjectively stable. ' What makes you say that ? There is a local pilot, flumazenil only 6 days, and it is supposed to be a 'detox'. (!)

 

Gabapentin and Lyrica increase glutamate decarboxylase - which is the enzyme that converts glutamate into GABA with the help of co-factors like B12, Calcium, etc. By increasing the enzyme, the pre-synaptic cell releases more GABA into the cleft making more of the neurotransmitter available for binding.

 

These two meds have a down-regulatory effect, even though their mechanism of action is different from that of a benzodiazepine. The worst cases of withdrawal I've seen often involve one of these two while tapering. I'm not sure, however, how things would fair if these meds were used during a flumazenil trial - which is why I asked. 

 

I only mentioned being stable because of the risk of breakthrough seizures, which can be life threatening; and this was within the context of being post-taper. Sorry, should have mentioned that. One of the American toxicology organizations issued a statement about these risks.

 

Flumazenil as a detox during benzo dosing could be an interesting study to follow.

[[Ir...]]

I did Flumazenil treatment at the Coleman clinic in August of 2015.  At the time I was three months out from a cold turkey off of 10+mg Xanax, 40mg Valium and 10 Ambien.  I honestly don't think anything could have helped me in that state.  I was still really suffering.  I did the week long Flumazenil and after 7 days I can report that I had every single symptom I went there with. 

 

Just a month later I reinstated under Doctors direction that reinstating and tapering was the only way I was gonna make it. 

 

Now it's almost two years later and I'm 103 days off Klonopin.  I did taper through 2016 and it is much better.  I am still suffering a few very troublesome symptoms like terrible insomnia. It's ruining my life.  So believe it or not, I got my local doctor, who is AWESOME, to set me up with the fulmazenil again.  I'm gonna give it another shot.  This time maybe try it for 10 or even 15 days.  I don't know. I am hopeful that it may push me over the finish line here.  Because at 103 days I'm feeling way better than I ever did in almost five months free in 2015.  Tapering is definitely the way to go.

 

If you read the full article on Flumazenil it does present evidence for Flumazenils role in Benzo recovery.  I'm hoping that this time I'm not beyond help, and maybe with so much progress made, it will help me a little.  And in this battle a little healing is A LOT of healing. 

 

I'll report back after I finish the treatment.

[[hi...]]

I saw a doctor yesterday who said I am suffering so much during taper I should do detox

He does sublingual flumenazil after the benzo is out of your system

Pheno taper then gabapentin and flumenazil

Thoughts?

I have already kindled

On 2.80 Valium and remeron

Struggling

 

So how did you make out with your withdrawal?  Did you use the Flumenazil?  I'm researching options for my BF who is struggling with Benzos. Thanks

[[hi...]]

I got a 6 day offer, infusion.

 

On clonazepam 2 mg, does anyone think it could work ? I don't see how.

 

What did you do?  That's what my BF is on now, med and dose.  Curious to know.

 

[[li...]]

After doing research I decided not to apply.

[[fa...]]

I did Flumazenil treatment at the Coleman clinic in August of 2015.  At the time I was three months out from a cold turkey off of 10+mg Xanax, 40mg Valium and 10 Ambien.  I honestly don't think anything could have helped me in that state.  I was still really suffering.  I did the week long Flumazenil and after 7 days I can report that I had every single symptom I went there with. 

 

Just a month later I reinstated under Doctors direction that reinstating and tapering was the only way I was gonna make it. 

 

Now it's almost two years later and I'm 103 days off Klonopin.  I did taper through 2016 and it is much better.  I am still suffering a few very troublesome symptoms like terrible insomnia. It's ruining my life.  So believe it or not, I got my local doctor, who is AWESOME, to set me up with the fulmazenil again.  I'm gonna give it another shot.  This time maybe try it for 10 or even 15 days.  I don't know. I am hopeful that it may push me over the finish line here.  Because at 103 days I'm feeling way better than I ever did in almost five months free in 2015.  Tapering is definitely the way to go.

 

If you read the full article on Flumazenil it does present evidence for Flumazenils role in Benzo recovery.  I'm hoping that this time I'm not beyond help, and maybe with so much progress made, it will help me a little.  And in this battle a little healing is A LOT of healing. 

 

I'll report back after I finish the treatment.

 

Irish,

 

          It's entirely possible that only being 3 months off the benzo/Z-drug combo presented as quite a tall order for something experimental like flumazenil to successfully address. How was the flumazenil given? (Ie. subcutaneous injection, lozenge, stomach infusion, etc.)

Even though some patients experience immediate results after the trial, I'd say flumazenil largely re-directs the brain's attention back to GABA and the need for upregulation, regeneration, healing, etc. Even though you only did 7-days, it may have helped more than you realize.

 

 

The reason I've heard so many positive testimonials regarding the 30-day flumazenil stomach pump infusion may be because chronic dosing of a med with such a short half-life would be required to spark anything.  Continuous abdominal infusion would help to ensure the patient had a steady, consistent level of flumazenil in the blood stream at all times.

 

If anyone has any information on flumazenil and its role in detox, please post. Supposedly, some areas in Australia are trying this.

 

[[Am...]]

A doctor friend got 32 flumazenil shots for me in Mexico. I¨m just too bad to fly now, but maybe next week I will and try it. I¨ll let you know what happens. Now, the fact that there is no protocol for us doesn´t mean it doesn´t work. We´ll see. I¨ll be, once more, a ratlab. Anything´s better than this shit. And don´t lose hope. Ramcon, have you tried gingko? I healed me 90% for many months until I relapsed due  to somemedicines I had to take for a physical problem, and since thenit has helped me a lot, but each time less and less. Now it doesn´t seem to help much.  :'(

 

I think it´s a sort of natural flumazenil, so I would deffinitely give it a try.

[[Ba...]]

I have heard there are several treatment centers giving this treatment. The Coleman Institute among others,

But also a clinic in Italy.

 

Does anyone know where to get this treatment other than the The Coleman Institute?

[[fa...]]

I have heard there are several treatment centers giving this treatment. The Coleman Institute among others,

But also a clinic in Italy.

 

Does anyone know where to get this treatment other than the The Coleman Institute?

 

If you're in The States, I guess Google would be the best place to start. You could also email the doctors at these various clinics, both domestically and internationally and ask if they know about other locations. Finding researchers and doing the same could also be beneficial.

 

Australia has been spearheading the flumazenil movement for sometime now. It's definitely available there.

 

I've read some negative testimonies regarding The Coleman Institute therapy. It's good you're asking these questions.

[[Ba...]]

Any more news on this as possible treatment?

[[Dt...]]

I’m visiting a clinic here in Australia next week for further info on thisctreatmrnt as the doctor here is the one who started it I believe. I’m just interested at options, as when I felt this bad on Ativan previously I was ct’d in hospital with addition of Remeron and I felt better within a few weeks. So I know the benzos after a period make my anxiety much worse! I’ll let you know what I find out!

[[Ba...]]

Ok, good.

Where in Oz are you?

[[Dt...]]

I’m in Perth

[[Ba...]]

Have a friend in SA.

 

Remeron caused all my probs...  don't think can handle any ADs so will be interested what you find out.

[[fa...]]

Flumazenil would likely only work if GABA-A receptors were in the proposed 'inverse agonist state.'

 

If effects of flumazenil administration are independent of glutamate conformation and function and vice versa, it may not matter whether LTD or LTP was at play.

In contrast to other antagonists - like ginkgo biloba - that have similar actions with glutamate, risks (except seizures) with flumazenil are fewer in type and intensity.

 

However, given the hypersensitive nature of all things glutamate, if the repair process had begun and glutamate was targeted for dismantle (ie. LTD; uncoupling, etc.), attempts at GABA reconfiguration via antagonism could thwart repair and result in recoil or kindling. This is unlikely, since glutamate is thought to be unaffected.

 

The reason a lot of people still struggle with symptoms like insomnia or sleep anxiety is because the GABA-A receptors are last to be addressed. It does make some sense that the body would first make alterations with glutamate, since that system was the primary counter-mechanism for accommodation.

 

 

[[Dt...]]

Faultandfracture thanks for the info!

 

I just read your sig... I’ve beeb trying to work out why now I’m getting shakes, heart racing and hypo when I take my dose... been over a week. Don’t feel mentally anxious nor like I’m ‘losing my mind’ which I’d expect from tolerance or WD, I have had Ativan turn paradoxical / have the same reaction after 3 weeks this year, what is it that you’re talking about and what should I do?

[[Cr...]]

This is my opinion of the benzo antagonist, Flumazenil.

 

Flumazenil is only ever useful in emergency benzo overdose, or high-dose use, greater than 100mg per day. It's a shame that Flumazenil only works on a "binge" basis. Not only this, multiple doses may be required due to Flumazenil's short half-life. It can induce seizures, so medical care is always needed.

 

Flumazenil is useless in benzo dependency because although it antagonises GABA-A receptors, Flumazenil does not reverse the multiple cell, nerve, muscle and genetic damage already done by the benzo. Natural healing still needs to occur. Also, there is a big risk that an addicted user will relapse after treatment. For this, CBT is always recommended after weaning off benzos or receiving Flumazenil treatment.

Dave.

[[kr...]]

I've tried to research this topic. It is of interest to me because I tapered off of diazepam very quickly and now 80 days after the taper I'm having major problems. With my understanding of drugs and pharmacokinetics it's apparent that the mode of administration (IV) is very impractical. Taking it orally, at half life or more often, would be safer and easier, much more practical. Taking it per mouth will add an hour or more to the half life. It doesn't matter if it's mostly (75%?) destroyed in the liver, it just means that the dosages need to be higher. In my country it's only available as a liquid infusion though, and it's expensive. If it was available in pill form it wouldn't be too hard to talk a doctor into trying it. But the IV thing makes it very complicated. It would be very hard to find a doctor willing to let me try it. It's very interesting though, as it could one possible way of resetting the GABA receptors and speeding up recovery.

[[wo...]]

I've tried to research this topic. It is of interest to me because I tapered off of diazepam very quickly and now 80 days after the taper I'm having major problems. With my understanding of drugs and pharmacokinetics it's apparent that the mode of administration (IV) is very impractical. Taking it orally, at half life or more often, would be safer and easier, much more practical. Taking it per mouth will add an hour or more to the half life. It doesn't matter if it's mostly (75%?) destroyed in the liver, it just means that the dosages need to be higher. In my country it's only available as a liquid infusion though, and it's expensive. If it was available in pill form it wouldn't be too hard to talk a doctor into trying it. But the IV thing makes it very complicated. It would be very hard to find a doctor willing to let me try it. It's very interesting though, as it could one possible way of resetting the GABA receptors and speeding up recovery.

 

I made a post in another forum for post withdrawal symtpoms, i think i put in wrong place should be here in other medications or alternative therapy and most people there don't talk about medications to stop post withdrawal symptoms:

http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php?topic=241802.msg3091952#msg3091952

 

Anyway I am getting my infusion as we speak now, my doc gave me a bolus injection of .2mg and is doing a 2mg infusion over 3 hours... She is also my ketamine provider, i have a pretty serious mood disorder, if it works and there's no adverse symptoms (i already feel better i am 1 hour in, my tinnutis stopped and i feel much more awake, lethargy is disappearing, foggy mind, etc as wek speak), she might offer it commercially she is in Florida and I will share info.

 

I am originally from Serbia, i found a doctor there, i can't travel at the time and I will visit him for an infusion once I can go home again, but he advised me to do 3 hour infusion on a monthly basis until all symptoms subsided. He did some of the inital studies in Flumazenil, if your in europe http://www.ramahordinacija.rs/. He published this article:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e49f/4784c6a51e9ef86f194f5af374901f57b582.pdf

I'm not sure he speaks good english though... 

 

In Serbia its much cheaper he asked me for 200-300 (dose dependant as flumazenil is expensive) euros for 3 hour infusion, my doc here in US didnt formulate price yet, she gave me special rate as i've done 20 ketamine infusions but i would imagine it would be $1200 based on her ketamine pricing. Thats 9x less than Coleman institute as they will only do a 4 day infusion program and won't consider a 1 off treatment. I'm seven months benzo free, but the articles in my other post (Lader Artcile) he did it 1month after. As it is coronavirus, I cannot travel there, so I guess local options are only ones available and i would do anything to end this nightmare.

 

Rgds

[[4M...]]

Maybe use a natural gabaA BZD receptor antagonist, like INCARVILLEA SINENSIS.

 

"..Two-electrode voltage clamp recordings of α1β3γ2, α2β3γ2, α3β3γ2 and α5β3γ2 subtypes expressed in Xenopus oocytes revealed that incarvillateine inhibited the GABAA currents with IC50 of 25.1 μM, 43.1 μM, 105.1 μM and 93.7 μM, respectively. Whole-cell patch clamp recordings of hippocampal slices confirmed that incarvillateine inhibited spontaneous inhibitory postsynaptic currents (IPSCs), and miniature IPSCs and tonic currents. Moreover, inhibition of GABAA currents and spontaneous IPSCs by incarvillateine persisted even in the presence of blockers of adenosine receptors."

 

INCARVILLEA SINENSIS also activates the adenosine receptors which make you sedated. So you will be relaxed and antagonizing the Benzo receptors at the same time.

 

 

 

I ordered some a couple days ago. Ill report back with how it goes.

 

 

 

 

Tony