Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[Le...]]

Stable is a relative word in benzo withdrawal. It doesn't necessarily mean without symptoms. For example, I experience many withdrawal symptoms, but now they are manageable. If they intensify beyond a certain point or if more severe symptoms pop up I know I'm pushing myself too much and I slow down. Long story short, stable is subjectivery.    Quote

 

I'm learning this lesson now just starting microtaper liquid. Daily  Last 2 days anxiety. Functional. Manageable but general shitty feeling.  The mind immediately goes to what action do i need  to take?  Hold?. I'm only doing .030 daily. Down .5 mg  So with the help of bb I know there are going to probably always be sensations that are not fun. But this is stable.  When it gets worse and worse. Action needs to happen. Right?

Right   You're getting the hang of this much quicker than I did!

Left 

[[Le...]]

Anyone else have trouble sleeping because of swollen feeling/numb arms and hands. My doctor suggested L-Theanine and Mag but I've heard mag is not good for w/d. I'm at a loss. Its  been worst symptom for almost a year now and I am just terrified to taper anymore. Thanks for any thoughts.

I get the numb arms and hands, and sometimes my knees swell and stiffen up. I don't know much about L-Theanine. I take 200 mgs of magnesium (in the form of malate and bioglycinate) a day. Try doing a search under alternative therapies and supplements, and you should find multiple threads on both supplements.

 

Left 

[[Le...]]

Thank you Left Behind.  I appreciate your answers.

 

A couple more questions.  As a rapid metabolizer, do you get interdose withdrawl or were you before 4 doses?  Do you notice your cuts right away? 

 

I looked up the genetic testing website and poked around.  They had a sample report and it did not have any of the benzos on it.  Did you find out by them specifically testing for Valium or was it through the CYP450 portion of the test?  I wonder if there is more than one test which is why I ask?

 

So before your long hold, were your symptoms debilitating? Did it take the 4 months to notice the improvement or was the improvement gradual?

 

Thanks, I really appreciate your continued help and support as I navigate through my own bad stuff.

Hey Sharkie, yes I was getting interdose withdrawal before I knew I was an ultrarapid metabolizer. I had been dosing 3xs a day before...once it was confirmed that I was ultrarapid I switched to 4xs a day. Yes, I notice my cuts within the first two days...then again around days 8 to 10.

 

Testing of the Cytochrome P450 liver enzymes is where genetic abnormalities of drug metabolism show up. To my knowledge, there is no specific genetic test for a particular drug. Valium is metabolized by two liver enzymes CYP 2C19 (the primary enzyme) and CYP 3A4/5 (secondary enzyme). It gets complicated... Short story, if you have genetic mutatations of either of these enzymes your body will metabolize V differently and you may need to adjust dosing accordingly.

 

Yes, before the long hold my sxs were debilitating...I won't go into detail...but it was beyond awful. The improvements were very slow and gradual during the long hold. I didn't even notice the progress I had made until someone else pointed it out to me.

 

You can PM me if you have anymore genetic questions and I will try to help out as best as I can.

 

Hang in there...it gets better...I was a total basket case when I first came here.

 

Left

[[Le...]]

Hi all

When I was at 1.5 mg Valium I was stable

I cut .25 per month and was good until last week

Now slammed

I heard this has happened to others

What are my chances of stabilizing

My sxs this week I have to say have been incredibly intense

I suddenly cannot function

 

Terror burning pain in chest and inner restlessness night sweats

Literally it seemed from one week to the next

Holding

Anyone take neurontin

Is that a preferable route to updosing

At this point I don't think updose will help but I am literally in agony in chest /terror

Hi Jackson,  I know you've started a couple of threads...did you get any advice or suggestions? I'm not a doctor, so can't give any medical advice. But, I can share my thoughts.

 

It does sounds like you are in acute... Neurontin helps many, but it takes time to build up in your system to be effective. I'd suggest trying an updose, or riding out this storm..awful choices I know. Hopefully you got some better advice from a Buddy with more experience than me. Praying you are filled with strength and perseverance to get through this night.

 

Left   

[[Ja...]]

Thank you left

Yes it's been a week one day shitty one day less shitty but all unbearable

Sorry I am posting frantically

Just trying to figure out what the heck to do.

Going to hold here for a month. Maybe two. See if I get anywhere then go down. Or if acute gets worse and worse.. Then I am not sure. My heart is crazy and I don't feel physically too safe. I have two kids and this is insanity. For all of us.

[[bl...]]

Thanks, Left. I appreciate response. Sometimes it helps to know I'm not alone and that it is w/d and not something else.

[[Le...]]

Thank you left

Yes it's been a week one day shitty one day less shitty but all unbearable

Sorry I am posting frantically

Just trying to figure out what the heck to do.

Going to hold here for a month. Maybe two. See if I get anywhere then go down. Or if acute gets worse and worse.. Then I am not sure. My heart is crazy and I don't feel physically too safe. I have two kids and this is insanity. For all of us.

Jackson, please don't apologize, you are in a hellish place, I understand, I've been there. Holding is a wise choice. The hard part is trying to stay calm while waiting to stabilize. Do not think that acute will get worse don't give it that power, don't give in to those thoughts. Don't fight the sxs, observe them, let them be..

 

Breathe, focus on your breath, it has a naturally calming effect on the body. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

 

Left 

[[Ja...]]

Thank you left

Good words and I know if i panic they get worse...

so ultimate surrender

i used to have a sense of humor! jeez

[[Le...]]

Thanks, Left. I appreciate response. Sometimes it helps to know I'm not alone and that it is w/d and not something else.

Bluepill, you're never alone at BB...there's always someone here who can relate to what you're going through. I'm sorry, I can't remember, are you terrified to taper because your sxs are so bad or are you holding and worrying about when you start to taper again

... sorry my brain goes on strike frequently...and this is one of those times.

 

Left 

[[Le...]]

Thank you left

Good words and I know if i panic they get worse...

so ultimate surrender

i used to have a sense of humor! jeez

Now if I could only follow my own advice I'd be golden  Don't worry Jackson, your sense of humor will return...it's just taking a vacation

[[bl...]]

Hi left,

Scared to taper b/c I don't want s/x to get worse. It's been well over a year. Started by tapering from 1 mg klonopin down to .25. Foot and hand problems so bad I lost it--crossed over from .25 k to 10 mg v (updosed)--stabalized and have been slowly tapering since about May. Am now at 6.5 v but every time I make a cut I start to feel really badly in extremeties again. It's just hard- I really want off but I have so little faith I will ever feel normal again. Sorry to such a bummer first thing Monday. Sigh. Kids off to school--work---stiff hands. Thanks for listening and responding!

Blue

[[Le...]]

Hi left,

Scared to taper b/c I don't want s/x to get worse. It's been well over a year. Started by tapering from 1 mg klonopin down to .25. Foot and hand problems so bad I lost it--crossed over from .25 k to 10 mg v (updosed)--stabalized and have been slowly tapering since about May. Am now at 6.5 v but every time I make a cut I start to feel really badly in extremeties again. It's just hard- I really want off but I have so little faith I will ever feel normal again. Sorry to such a bummer first thing Monday. Sigh. Kids off to school--work---stiff hands. Thanks for listening and responding!

Blue

Blue, is there any way you could try smaller cuts? Im sorry you feel so discouraged today. V is notorious for causing those low moods and apathy. Have you read any of the Success Stories?

 

Left 

[[bl...]]

No. Maybe I should. It feels like a far way off--getting off totally---And then, of course, there will be the issue of insomnia which is why I started in the first place. But one step at a time I guess. Thank you, Left.

[[Le...]]

Blue, please don't be so hard on yourself. You have made wonderful progress. Those distressing sxs in your extremities are signs that you're body is trying to heal. Don't fear the sxs, acknowledge them, remind yourself you are healing, then move on and try to distract yourself.

 

Acceptance, distraction, patience, and time. 

[[bl...]]

You are great, Left. Thanks!

[[cr...]]

So, Builder, you just mixed your liquid Valium and water, used for two weeks and then mixed another two week batch?  I am so concerned about this.  Should I try to get another RX of liquid Valium and just make 2 weeks at a time?  Will using it for weeks (maybe months) like I have been doing harm me in any way?  Thank you. Cross

 

Yikes, the diluted Valium can only last a week?  I have been using the diluted Valium for months. My husband diluted the RX liquid Valium with water, put it in a large brown bottle and I take it every night.  So, he should only make a weeks worth at a time?  Been doing it like this for a long time, what kind of problems could that create?  Thank you. Cross

Cross, I didn't mean to give you a scare...so sorry. I was trying to help another Buddy and was going by my personal experience.

 

I don't think you're doing anything wrong, especially if your system works for you. Please don't worry If your diluted Valium solution lasts for months and works for you please don't change what you're doing because of what I said.

 

Builder, please clarify how long diluted RX Valium lasts.

 

Thanks, Left

 

As far as stability and potency, it will probably last several years.  The only risk is possible bacterialogical or fungal growth since it probably not prepared and handled in perfectly sterile conditions.  During my 2 year taper there were 2 occasions where there was a slight "icky" consistency that appeared near the end of a 2 week batch.  But I used it anyway, and there was no apparent change in potency.

 

Remember, the Rx liquid, which is basically Valium, PG, and water, has a shelf life of 3 years.  Adding a little more water is not going to decrease the shelf life.

[[bu...]]

So, Builder, you just mixed your liquid Valium and water, used for two weeks and then mixed another two week batch?  I am so concerned about this.  Should I try to get another RX of liquid Valium and just make 2 weeks at a time?  Will using it for weeks (maybe months) like I have been doing harm me in any way?  Thank you. Cross

 

 

 

So what are you concerned about? 

 

The mfgr actually recommends diluting the Rx liquid.  Diluting it in no way will change the potency, and dilution will not make it perishable. 

 

Yes, I typically made a dilute batch to last 10-14 days.  I stored it a room temp and protected from light.  I did this for 2 years and it worked fine.

[[cr...]]

So, Builder, let me ask it this way.  Why did you make small batches at a time instead of making large batches at a time?  Cross

 

So, Builder, you just mixed your liquid Valium and water, used for two weeks and then mixed another two week batch?  I am so concerned about this.  Should I try to get another RX of liquid Valium and just make 2 weeks at a time?  Will using it for weeks (maybe months) like I have been doing harm me in any way?  Thank you. Cross

 

 

 

So what are you concerned about? 

 

The mfgr actually recommends diluting the Rx liquid.  Diluting it in no way will change the potency, and dilution will not make it perishable. 

 

Yes, I typically made a dilute batch to last 10-14 days.  I stored it a room temp and protected from light.  I did this for 2 years and it worked fine.

[[bu...]]

So, Builder, let me ask it this way.  Why did you make small batches at a time instead of making large batches at a time?  Cross

 

 

10-14 days just seemed like a reasonable interval.  And it meant I could periodically  make any changes to my procedure, if I wanted too. 

 

Folks that  plan to do a liquid microtaper really should not obsess over procedural details...within some pretty broad parameters, it really doesn't make much difference how you do it. 

 

If you just start with a dilute solution that makes it possible to measure out your dose increments, and follow a consistent procedure, you will not have any problems. 

 

Some folks make a new batch daily. Like I said, I made a batch every 10-14 days.  If you want to make a 3 month (or whatever) batch, it won't make any difference.

 

Just reduce your dose a little every day.  That's about all there is to it.

 

 

[[cr...]]

Ok, thanks. Cross

 

So, Builder, let me ask it this way.  Why did you make small batches at a time instead of making large batches at a time?  Cross

 

 

10-14 days just seemed like a reasonable interval.  And it meant I could periodically  make any changes to my procedure, if I wanted too. 

 

Folks that  plan to do a liquid microtaper really should not obsess over procedural details...within some pretty broad parameters, it really doesn't make much difference how you do it. 

 

If you just start with a dilute solution that makes it possible to measure out your dose increments, and follow a consistent procedure, you will not have any problems. 

 

Some folks make a new batch daily. Like I said, I made a batch every 10-14 days.  If you want to make a 3 month (or whatever) batch, it won't make any difference.

 

Just reduce your dose a little every day.  That's about all there is to it.

 

 

[[...]]

Thank you Left Behind.  I appreciate your answers.

 

A couple more questions.  As a rapid metabolizer, do you get interdose withdrawl or were you before 4 doses?  Do you notice your cuts right away? 

 

I looked up the genetic testing website and poked around.  They had a sample report and it did not have any of the benzos on it.  Did you find out by them specifically testing for Valium or was it through the CYP450 portion of the test?  I wonder if there is more than one test which is why I ask?

 

So before your long hold, were your symptoms debilitating? Did it take the 4 months to notice the improvement or was the improvement gradual?

 

Thanks, I really appreciate your continued help and support as I navigate through my own bad stuff.

Hey Sharkie, yes I was getting interdose withdrawal before I knew I was an ultrarapid metabolizer. I had been dosing 3xs a day before...once it was confirmed that I was ultrarapid I switched to 4xs a day. Yes, I notice my cuts within the first two days...then again around days 8 to 10.

 

Testing of the Cytochrome P450 liver enzymes is where genetic abnormalities of drug metabolism show up. To my knowledge, there is no specific genetic test for a particular drug. Valium is metabolized by two liver enzymes CYP 2C19 (the primary enzyme) and CYP 3A4/5 (secondary enzyme). It gets complicated... Short story, if you have genetic mutatations of either of these enzymes your body will metabolize V differently and you may need to adjust dosing accordingly.

 

Yes, before the long hold my sxs were debilitating...I won't go into detail...but it was beyond awful. The improvements were very slow and gradual during the long hold. I didn't even notice the progress I had made until someone else pointed it out to me.

 

You can PM me if you have anymore genetic questions and I will try to help out as best as I can.

 

Hang in there...it gets better...I was a total basket case when I first came here.

 

Left

 

HI Leftbehind, you don't know me ,but I mostly post in the long hold support group. I wanted to ask you relative to your long hold..... How many months did it take befor you started to feel better? I'm in the basket case department right now, a month into a hold after a 1/4 mg cut of V . I'm just getting worse this last week and don't know what to do. I've barely started my taper , but was never really stable on the 10 mg V I started out on after my cross from K. I don't want to up dose, not at this early stage. I guess cutting is not an option right now, I just feel so doubtful that I will get better holding...

Thank you for any encouragement !

MiYu

[[sh...]]

Thank you Left Behind.  I appreciate your answers.

 

A couple more questions.  As a rapid metabolizer, do you get interdose withdrawl or were you before 4 doses?  Do you notice your cuts right away? 

 

I looked up the genetic testing website and poked around.  They had a sample report and it did not have any of the benzos on it.  Did you find out by them specifically testing for Valium or was it through the CYP450 portion of the test?  I wonder if there is more than one test which is why I ask?

 

So before your long hold, were your symptoms debilitating? Did it take the 4 months to notice the improvement or was the improvement gradual?

 

Thanks, I really appreciate your continued help and support as I navigate through my own bad stuff.

Hey Sharkie, yes I was getting interdose withdrawal before I knew I was an ultrarapid metabolizer. I had been dosing 3xs a day before...once it was confirmed that I was ultrarapid I switched to 4xs a day. Yes, I notice my cuts within the first two days...then again around days 8 to 10.

 

Testing of the Cytochrome P450 liver enzymes is where genetic abnormalities of drug metabolism show up. To my knowledge, there is no specific genetic test for a particular drug. Valium is metabolized by two liver enzymes CYP 2C19 (the primary enzyme) and CYP 3A4/5 (secondary enzyme). It gets complicated... Short story, if you have genetic mutatations of either of these enzymes your body will metabolize V differently and you may need to adjust dosing accordingly.

 

Yes, before the long hold my sxs were debilitating...I won't go into detail...but it was beyond awful. The improvements were very slow and gradual during the long hold. I didn't even notice the progress I had made until someone else pointed it out to me.

 

You can PM me if you have anymore genetic questions and I will try to help out as best as I can.

 

Hang in there...it gets better...I was a total basket case when I first came here.

 

Left

 

HI Leftbehind, you don't know me ,but I mostly post in the long hold support group. I wanted to ask you relative to your long hold..... How many months did it take befor you started to feel better? I'm in the basket case department right now, a month into a hold after a 1/4 mg cut of V . I'm just getting worse this last week and don't know what to do. I've barely started my taper , but was never really stable on the 10 mg V I started out on after my cross from K. I don't want to up dose, not at this early stage. I guess cutting is not an option right now, I just feel so doubtful that I will get better holding...

Thank you for any encouragement !

MiYu

 

Hello MIYu

I am very sorry for your suffering.  I am in a similar situation and have posted a few times about it.  Much like you I was not stable after crossing over to V from Ativan.  My doc did not cross over at an equivalent.  It looks like your doc did, but if you were in withdrawl prior to crossing, maybe you needed more valium.  Not sure.  For me, my crossover was not withdrawl hell like yours even though my equivalanet was low.    I actually felt way better than I did on the Ativan, but looking back I realize I was still in some amount of withdrawl which made every cut difficult.  I did not wait the 2 weeks to stabalize.  Pdoc wanted me to start cutting right away.  It finallly all caught up to me after too many cuts too fast (per her instructions) and a bizarre interaction with 2 OTC meds that messed up my taper as well.

 

Anyway, I have been holding  a little over 6 weeks now.  See signature.  My symptoms are not as intense as the first 4 weeks (which was almost constant withdrawl - I think acute).  At the 4-6 week mark, I had some days that were better with 3-4 hour windows.  Then back to withdrawl.  Other days, sx were still pretty constant.  Symptoms started shifting to other symptoms.  I am exhausted from the ordeal.  The last 2 days, have been better.  Thanking God for that!  Longer periods of relief and milder symptoms.  In fact, tonight is the first night, my head has not been feeling like a blown up balloon all fuzzy with blurry vision.  Had that for over a month.  So I'm seeing improvement, but I would say I am far from stable and ready to cut again.  I would need to feel like I did today or better for at least another couple of weeks.  Then I'm cutting tiny.  I still think of updosing, when I can't take it anymore, but really want off this drug sooner than later.  Now with 6 weeks into holding, I wouldn't even know what to updose to and if I did and it did nothing to help, then I'd have to go up more and well .... I'm sure you have thought of all of that.  It's maddening!

 

I have determined that there are some supplements I was taking that caused some problems throughout.  Are you taking anything other than the Valium?  I am also super sensitive so feel everything and have had lots of interactions with the Valium.  It seems, for me, I easily get up or down regulated by supplements or OTC med which makes tapering harder.  It crosses the same liver pathways as many other meds and supps.  from what I have learned.

 

All in all, it is very rough to cut when you were never stable to start.  In hindsight, I wish I would have updosed at the 2 week point when I was first considering doing so and avoided the suffering.  But what's done is done.  I never thought it would be this long of an ordeal.

 

It is a hard decision whether to updose after a long hold.  Most pdocs don't know how to advise on that.  Mine sure doesn't. 

She left me hanging with, "It's impossiple to be in withdrawl longer than a month.  You are the only patient I've had that hasn't been able to keep cutting and be off by now.  I don't know what to tell you.  Maybe you should see an addiction specialist."  Then she goes on vacation while i'm still suffering.  I go to see an addiction specialist.  Old school who runs the hospital in and out treatment program.  12 step and all.  Says Ashton Method is a nice thought, but doesn't believe in it.  He could have cared less about my withdrawl.  When I told him, it was debilitating for me, he said, "You're not debilitated.  You have two legs and you can walk can't you?"  Said I could cut the whole .8 today and nothing serious would happen.    Just a window into what the detox program is like. 

 

Stay in touch and let us know how things go. 

 

Sharkie

[[...]]

Woah, sharkie, the doc sounds like a real jerk, both of them! I'm sorry . They just don't understand how some people are so sensitive . Can you just do it at your own pace and not ask their advice? I hope you can continue to get your script filled.

I'm glad you feel a little better at 6 weeks holding.... It's so hard to keep holding isn't it. I know I'm not ready though. I won't updose. I just feel scared about not getting off , but the suffering is too awful to not keep holding .

So , yes , let's stay in touch and we can compare notes . You're not being forced to cut are you with the detox program? I hope not .

Take care , MiYu

Ps , I have my PMs turned off right now

[[bl...]]

Hi Miyu:

I think I need to check out Long Hold support group as I am in your boat. Taper off K was hell and once I got down to .25 I just lost it. Crossover from 1 mg k to 10 mg v was okay but as I've been cutting down on V my symptoms won't let up--aching feet and hands--blurry vision---no matter how long I hold. Last few days I've had a few windows (am now at 6.5 v) so fingers crossed. I'd say don't rush it. For whatever it's worth--

Blue

[[Ja...]]

Sharkie I relate

I am at 1mg v

Was ok two weeks ago

But kindled from last year

Now holding in agony and also debilitated

Doctor wants to get rid of me and said he's never seen this before

I'm the worst case he's seen and he has nothing to tell me

Said I might not make it through what? What does that mean

I have to make it

My heart is pounding and I am in full blown terror. I am in acute like feeling

You?? Do u have the chest pain burning terror

Fatigue?

Those are my symptoms

I think I will need something like neurontin to endure this

It's unmanageable

I can't drive or go out of do anything

I was active and quite normal just two weeks ago. This thing slams you out of the blue. I know ppl say hold but this whole taper was a waste

I should have let me GABA heal last year after cold turkey. Or fast taper. I should have just done it

Now I feel 100 times worse