Valium/Diazepam Support Group

[[so...]]

Thank you Kasey and Ed! I appreciate your encouraging words too! I honestly don't know if I could have done this without this little support group. It has given me so much strength to know that I have a place I can turn to when no one else understands.

 

I'm still having vertigo on standing and lying, but the fact that it's not just striking me down at random is nice. It is definitely not the same thing that I had in 2011-2013. It is the same thing I had last year with the Ativan taper. I'm taking comfort in that for now.

 

I'm shaky and tired when I stand or sit, but I'm going to try to return to at least some work tomorrow. Being in bed for too long makes you even looper if you ask me. I need to get back on my feet.

 

Can anyone chime in?

1. Should I change my dosing somehow

2. Do others have a harder time with the Valium than the previous drug (in my case, Klonipin)

3. How do you know when to chase down a symptom and when to let it go

4. How do I deal with this INSANE anxiety

 

My two cents on the above which may or may not have value for you:

 

1. Changing dosing... I was terrified to reduce my number of doses but from four per day to three to two (next up, ONE, yikes) but it was actually really freeing each time because you don't have to think about your meds all day. I'm one of those with the morning anxiety too, so I've been doing my larger dose in the AM. Have you considered trying taking your whole dose in the morning? If your body is waiting all day for that second dose to calm you, maybe getting it in one hit in the morning would work. Just a thought, but ignore it if it's not something you'd consider!

 

2. For me, the Valium switch was a godsend. The interdose WDS on Ativan were awful. I was depressed at 10 mg of V but as I began decreasing I noticed a change immediately. No increase in anxiety with V for me. Did you have an increase in anxiety right from the start or only once you started cutting it? We definitely will have a natural return of anxiety as we stop medicating it, but everyone is different and I've seen quite a few say what you're saying about V.

 

3. If it's an actual emergency of the type that I would rush to the ER for, I would get it checked. Hasn't happened yet. If it doesn't seem to be, I wait a few days and watch it fade. I've had totally different symptoms at each cut, so I have learned to treat them like an annoying coworker and ignore their bad behavior. Lol. What you give attention to expands, so I brush it off and keep it moving. I find new coping methods for each one (massage and chewing gum for jaw tension, tension tamer tea for anxiety, Tylenol and a bit of caffeine for headaches, benadryl when I can't sleep), so I do those and then I tell myself to forget about it. This may work even better for you since your family is the busy type! I'm lazy by nature though I'm a hard worker. Work has kept me sane through this.

 

4. Mindfulness. This doesn't mean being positive all the time. It means being fully in the moment even if it's a bad moment. If you are having anxiety, you feel it and ask what it's trying to tell you. If you can do something about it, take action, and if you can't, let it go. I would strongly recommend reading Claire Weekes books too. It's the simplest method but it's the only thing that ever got through to me for the anxiety.

 

 

[[fi...]]

 

 

My two cents on the above which may or may not have value for you:

 

1. Changing dosing... I was terrified to reduce my number of doses but from four per day to three to two (next up, ONE, yikes) but it was actually really freeing each time because you don't have to think about your meds all day. I'm one of those with the morning anxiety too, so I've been doing my larger dose in the AM. Have you considered trying taking your whole dose in the morning? If your body is waiting all day for that second dose to calm you, maybe getting it in one hit in the morning would work. Just a thought, but ignore it if it's not something you'd consider!

 

2. For me, the Valium switch was a godsend. The interdose WDS on Ativan were awful. I was depressed at 10 mg of V but as I began decreasing I noticed a change immediately. No increase in anxiety with V for me. Did you have an increase in anxiety right from the start or only once you started cutting it? We definitely will have a natural return of anxiety as we stop medicating it, but everyone is different and I've seen quite a few say what you're saying about V.

 

3. If it's an actual emergency of the type that I would rush to the ER for, I would get it checked. Hasn't happened yet. If it doesn't seem to be, I wait a few days and watch it fade. I've had totally different symptoms at each cut, so I have learned to treat them like an annoying coworker and ignore their bad behavior. Lol. What you give attention to expands, so I brush it off and keep it moving. I find new coping methods for each one (massage and chewing gum for jaw tension, tension tamer tea for anxiety, Tylenol and a bit of caffeine for headaches, benadryl when I can't sleep), so I do those and then I tell myself to forget about it. This may work even better for you since your family is the busy type! I'm lazy by nature though I'm a hard worker. Work has kept me sane through this.

 

4. Mindfulness. This doesn't mean being positive all the time. It means being fully in the moment even if it's a bad moment. If you are having anxiety, you feel it and ask what it's trying to tell you. If you can do something about it, take action, and if you can't, let it go. I would strongly recommend reading Claire Weekes books too. It's the simplest method but it's the only thing that ever got through to me for the anxiety.

 

Thank you! I've been trying to do some Mindfulness Meditation but I've gotten away from it as of late - I'm scared to switch to one dose a day...... bc I'm wondering if I metabolize the V more quickly (I know its supposedly longer acting but I just wonder if my body is metabolizing faster since my failed K taper.......I fear I would be committed by the end of the first day! But its a thought and I'll chew on it. Yes, I noticed right away on the Valium that I was depressed - it was a dark yucky uncomfortable feeling that I never had on Klonipin......The Anxiety has def. gotten worse as I cut and also I'm having Thyroid problems that we haven't been able to fix yet - Very frustrating - I've been on Thyroid Medication for 15 years (long before the Benzo) and my thyroid has been perfect all that time until late....

 

I wish I had words of encouragement about the Vertigo - I had horrific Vertigo when I tapered last time - both during that taper and then so bad afterwards that I really had no business driving.....but I did - This time its been intermittent and mostly when I'm on the freeway......having that dizzy feeling when standing (although a little different than vertigo) can be related to blood pressure - I do know that - but you probably know if you have a blood pressure problem.......

 

I have a new appt with a new internist - my old one is the pitts and she wrote me off as a hypochondriac last time I went through this -  so for now I'll try and stay calm and then ask the new Dr to check out the lumps in the back of my neck - pretty sure they are lymph nodes since they are on either side of my neck......

 

Thank you! Thank you all!

[[Kg...]]

Fightformylife:  In addition to what you have already been told the one thing that worked for me is yoga stretches. I too found the 'mindfulness'  hard to do but doing the yoga stretches with the breathing at least worked while I was doing it. I also did hypnosis you tubes for anxiety and they usually put me to sleep which also helped.  Remember the panic/anxiety is chemical and is not you - so if you know this and try to tell yourself it is a chemical reaction it also helps.  Real anxiety just feels different and as we all know the chemical anxiety is much much worse!!!

[[Ma...]]

Solaceandpeace.

 

I follow your posts because they soothe my fears. Your positive outlook is an inspiration to me. You seem to find positive within symptoms. I hope you will feel better soon.

[[bu...]]

Builder,

 

Since you're floating around and are one of the math gurus here, I have a question at your leisure.

 

If a person were to taper off Valium at .01mg per day all the way down to zero, how much valium would be left in the system on the final cut? We'll just assume the half life is 48 hours.

 

If anyone else wants to give it a shot, please feel free.

 

Many thanks,

Ed

 

There is a lot of misunderstanding about how diazepam accumulates (and depletes) in the body over time.  The actual accumulation will be approx 8X the daily dose (there is some math that supports that)  Note that accumulated med is "in storage", and not having any significant effect on physical or emotional performance. So your effective dose is still just the amount of your daily dose. If you take 5mg a day, your effective dose/dependency is 5mg, not 40mg.

 

When you begin to taper, the fat tissue will begin to release that stored med at about the same rate as is accumulated it.  That's why many folks don't feel a diazepam cut until about the 8th day...the body has been releasing some of the stored med to cover the deficiency.

 

So as you taper, the amount of stored diazepam falls in proportion to your dose reduction.  As your total dose falls, so does the amount of stored med.  So if you jumped at .1mg, you might still have .8mg stored.  But that does not mean you are CTing .8mg.  The body still slowly "self-tapers" that remaining accumulated med.  And the to zero, the closer you taper to zero, the closer to zero the stored med goes.

[[fi...]]

This is interesting Builder. I seem to have intra dose withdrawal - I've lost a horrific amount of weight and so the part about being stored in fat cells makes me wonder if I'm metabolizing quicker than most. I'm bone thin - great at 25. Not so attractive at 47!

[[bu...]]

This is interesting Builder. I seem to have intra dose withdrawal - I've lost a horrific amount of weight and so the part about being stored in fat cells makes me wonder if I'm metabolizing quicker than most. I'm bone thin - great at 25. Not so attractive at 47!

  No...that's another common understanding about body weight and diazepam accumulation.  The amount of body fat, or body type has no influence over how, or how much, the diazepam accumulates, or is stored.  And weight changes, even rapid or significant, doesn't effect the storage or release of the med.  Very lean folks  absorb and store diazepam just the same as heavy folks.

 

And while there can be significant differences  metabolic rates from one person to another, metabolizing the diazepam really has nothing to do with the rate at which it is stored, or released.

[[fi...]]

Ok - good info - thank you

[[ed...]]

Builder,

 

Since you're floating around and are one of the math gurus here, I have a question at your leisure.

 

If a person were to taper off Valium at .01mg per day all the way down to zero, how much valium would be left in the system on the final cut? We'll just assume the half life is 48 hours.

 

If anyone else wants to give it a shot, please feel free.

 

Many thanks,

Ed

 

There is a lot of misunderstanding about how diazepam accumulates (and depletes) in the body over time.  The actual accumulation will be approx 8X the daily dose (there is some math that supports that)  Note that accumulated med is "in storage", and not having any significant effect on physical or emotional performance. So your effective dose is still just the amount of your daily dose. If you take 5mg a day, your effective dose/dependency is 5mg, not 40mg.

 

When you begin to taper, the fat tissue will begin to release that stored med at about the same rate as is accumulated it.  That's why many folks don't feel a diazepam cut until about the 8th day...the body has been releasing some of the stored med to cover the deficiency.

 

So as you taper, the amount of stored diazepam falls in proportion to your dose reduction.  As your total dose falls, so does the amount of stored med.  So if you jumped at .1mg, you might still have .8mg stored.  But that does not mean you are CTing .8mg.  The body still slowly "self-tapers" that remaining accumulated med.  And the to zero, the closer you taper to zero, the closer to zero the stored med goes.

 

First off, thank you for taking the time for your thoughtful response.

 

Just a follow up question:

 

I know you slid off quietly into the night upon jumping, but many of us have/will go into an acute period after jumping.

 

Do you think acute sets in more quickly or is "less" acute if one jumps with only .08mg (from .01 x 8 days) stored in their body versus, say, jumping at .25mg and having 2mg stored in the body?

 

Thanks,

Ed

[[bu...]]

 

 

First off, thank you for taking the time for your thoughtful response.

 

Just a follow up question:

 

I know you slid off quietly into the night upon jumping, but many of us have/will go into an acute period after jumping.

 

Do you think acute sets in more quickly or is "less" acute if one jumps with only .08mg (from .01 x 8 days) stored in their body versus, say, jumping at .25mg and having 2mg stored in the body?

 

Thanks,

Ed

 

Well, I guess that I really don't know what "acute period" really means.  A moderator on another thread recently posted that  everyone went through an acute period, and that the acute period was just the period immediately following stopping the benzo.

 

Well, by that definition, everyone goes through an "acute period"...everyone has timespan that immediately follows discontinuation.  By that definition, I guess I had an "acute period", but I certainly was not in any way symptomatic after I jumped.

 

I think most folks consider "acute  period" to be a time of significant symptoms after stopping.  Frankly, if you do a slow taper, I'm not sure why there should be an acute period.  We all reach a point where we no longer are dependent, so at that point, I don't know why you would have withdrawal sxs?

 

But having said that, it is pretty apparent that many folks do continue to be symptomatic, even after stopping completely, so I'm not saying its not real.  Withdrawal sxs simply means you your body has not adjusted to to the reduced presence of the drug.  So I guess some folks just recover (heal) more slowly than others.  It  really has nothing to do with this "stored" benzo.  As your dose declines, the fat releases a proportional amount from the fat.  (This is why some sources say diazepam is a "self-tapering" benzo) But the stored benzo being released is pretty insignificant as you near the end your taper

 

To answer your question, and to emphasize my point about recovering from the dependency, at some point everyone will recover from the dependency, everyone's body will return to a state of normalcy through homeostasis.  Once you have recovered from that dependency, there should not be any  further withdrawal sxs.  If you get down to, say, 1,5, 1.0, .5, whatever, and are no longer symptomatic, then it doesn't make sense that withdrawal sxs will re-occur. By definition, if you are not dependent, there is no withdrawal.*  But if you taper down to tenth, or even hundredths, and still have sxs, then yeah, you will probably have an "acute period" with significant sxs even after you are completely off.

 

FWIW, during my microtaper, my worst sxs occurred at 3.5mg.  I did a  hold, updosed, then continued at a lower cut rate.  But once I successfully got down to3mg, all of my sxs stopped.  At 1mg, I even increased my cut rate, and had no sxs.  So it was pretty obvious to me that 1) 3.5 was the "last hurdle", and 2) at 3mg, I had overcome (healed, recovered, whatever) my dependency.  But if you are still symptomatic and jump at .25, you very probably will have sxs after your jump. 

 

* There is obvious tendency here on BB to assume every problem, discomfort, symptom, they ever have is benzo related.  We tend to forget that 1) each of us had some underlying condition that led us to be Rx'd a benzo, 2) benzos only relieve symptoms, they don't cure anything, so 3) it would not  be unusual for folks to still suffer from their underlying condition once they stop benzo therapy.

[[Ju...]]

I recall reading a signature where a BB'er tapered down to 5 mg, after which time not only had no

more s/x but also felt better from 5 mg down to zero, and jumping was a non-event.

-J

 

[[ed...]]

I recall reading a signature where a BB'er tapered down to 5 mg, after which time not only had no

more s/x but also felt better from 5 mg down to zero, and jumping was a non-event.

-J

 

Personally, I feel this is the case for the majority of those who taper off benzos. It's mostly just the hard luck cases like many of us who end up on these boards.

 

--Ed

[[so...]]

I wish I had words of encouragement about the Vertigo - I had horrific Vertigo when I tapered last time - both during that taper and then so bad afterwards that I really had no business driving.....but I did - This time its been intermittent and mostly when I'm on the freeway......having that dizzy feeling when standing (although a little different than vertigo) can be related to blood pressure - I do know that - but you probably know if you have a blood pressure problem.......

 

I've completely given up freeway driving since having vertigo. If it had been this type which is triggered by head movement, I might not have gone to such extremes, but it was always so random before (a click in my ear followed by violent cartwheeling, basically). I figured I'd kill myself and others if it happened on the freeway so I just don't do it. I probably will someday if enough years go by without an attack. I recently read that most people only suffer vertigo for a certain number of years and that has been true for everyone that I know who has it. Well, I'm coming up on five years so maybe it will all be over soon. Fingers crossed! Good luck with your new doc and with everything!

 

Solaceandpeace.

 

I follow your posts because they soothe my fears. Your positive outlook is an inspiration to me. You seem to find positive within symptoms. I hope you will feel better soon.

 

This completely made my night. Thank you. I did in fact have a better day today! Only two minor "spins" upon sitting up from a lying position. I think I'm on my way back. I don't know for how long, but I feel more equipped to handle it even if it returns.

 

There is a lot of misunderstanding about how diazepam accumulates (and depletes) in the body over time.  The actual accumulation will be approx 8X the daily dose (there is some math that supports that)  Note that accumulated med is "in storage", and not having any significant effect on physical or emotional performance.

 

Super helpful info, builder! I really enjoyed reading that and it helped me understand that in a way I couldn't grasp before. Thank you for taking the time to write it!

[[bu...]]

I recall reading a signature where a BB'er tapered down to 5 mg, after which time not only had no

more s/x but also felt better from 5 mg down to zero, and jumping was a non-event.

-J

  As I said, everyone during a taper reaches a dose where they are no longer dependent.  When there is no dependency, there will be no withdrawal.

[[He...]]

Thank you all

Yes I will hold

I had pneumonia and now slammed w a virus. This is getting scary. So far docs don't think it's a recurrence of the pneumonia just bad virus or something but omg I feel so so sick

I think benzo accentuates the illness and I am so bummed as I hoped to ride the end of this on a high note.  I feel scared and beaten down.

I am at 1.15 and will hold that tonight. I can't handle any withdrawal on top of this. It feels so unmanageable with looping thoughts fear and just plain sickness feeling

I keep wondering should I go to ER? Should I stay put? Went to doc and did xray. Yesterday my xray was normal so he just said you got a bad cold or virus and did a culture. Ugh. Sorry to complain

So glad chess you are doing so well. Gives me hope!!

 

Hi don't know if you read my posts. It's part of a detox. Try to think of it as your body throwing off rubbish as you are getting down to the last. For me, I'm at a higher dose but did some diet changes. It's a GOOD sign. Yes, even though we feel like s__t.  HM

[Guest [ch...]]

BTW Valium's long half life is not due to it being stored in body fat. It is due to the fact that it is metabolized into other benzos. A negligible amount is stored.

 

I agree with builder. If you taper slow enough and/or heal fast enough, then one can heal even before the end of your taper and thus suffer no acute period when you get to the end. My symptoms have been minimal since going below 1mg/day. While I do plan to taper slowly from 1 to 0 (cutting .1mg per week) just to be on the safe side, I don't expect an acute period when I reach zero.

[[ed...]]

BTW Valium's long half life is not due to it being stored in body fat. It is due to the fact that it is metabolized into other benzos. A negligible amount is stored.

 

I agree with builder. If you taper slow enough and/or heal fast enough, then one can heal even before the end of your taper and thus suffer no acute period when you get to the end. My symptoms have been minimal since going below 1mg/day. While I do plan to taper slowly from 1 to 0 (cutting .1mg per week) just to be on the safe side, I don't expect an acute period when I reach zero.

 

How were your symptoms from, say, 3mg to 1mg?  BTW, I really do hope for you that you're right and experience 0 discomfort once you're off.

 

Best,

Ed

[[bu...]]

BTW Valium's long half life is not due to it being stored in body fat. It is due to the fact that it is metabolized into other benzos. A negligible amount is stored.

 

I agree with builder. If you taper slow enough and/or heal fast enough, then one can heal even before the end of your taper and thus suffer no acute period when you get to the end. My symptoms have been minimal since going below 1mg/day. While I do plan to taper slowly from 1 to 0 (cutting .1mg per week) just to be on the safe side, I don't expect an acute period when I reach zero.

 

 

Again, the "storage" process is basically unrelated to the metabolic process. At the risk of grossly oversimplifying, when you take a dose of diazepam, the body puts some of it work immediately, and saves the rest for later.

[[Ja...]]

I pray for no acute

I just think there are some that are hit- baylissa Frederick is one of them

I asked her if she thought that a slower taper would have helped and maybe she wouldn't have hit acute and she said no.. It was what it was

I especially think those that have not cold turkeyed or fast tapered before (like me) and those with healthy strong bodies have a good chance of not hitting acute

That is the million dollar question.. Why did someone like baylissa who had a very reasonable taper hit acute at the End? And take 3 years to recover completely?

Idk..

My immune system is taking a hit big time.

I am so glad you are doing well Richard.

I am holding right now until my virus or whatever is gone.

Good luck. So happy for you Richard.

[[Ma...]]

Sunday I complete my crossover from 30mg temaz to 10 mg valium.  I want to do a daily micro taper.  Do I do cut and hold to a point? Can someone help me get started with a spreadsheet.  I used the liquid titration daily spreadsheet for the crossover.  Is there another spreadsheet for this?,How will i know at what rate to microtaper? Thanks

[[jj...]]

I pray for no acute

I just think there are some that are hit- baylissa Frederick is one of them

I asked her if she thought that a slower taper would have helped and maybe she wouldn't have hit acute and she said no.. It was what it was

I especially think those that have not cold turkeyed or fast tapered before (like me) and those with healthy strong bodies have a good chance of not hitting acute

That is the million dollar question.. Why did someone like baylissa who had a very reasonable taper hit acute at the End? And take 3 years to recover completely?

Idk..

My immune system is taking a hit big time.

I am so glad you are doing well Richard.

I am holding right now until my virus or whatever is gone.

Good luck. So happy for you Richard.

 

Baylissa had a few "unsuccessful" tapers before she decided that she was done no matter what. They call that kindling, each botched taper makes the next one more likely bring on more withdrawal symptoms. It's a good reminder that once you're off, it's far far better to accept your lumps and not reinstate under any circumstances - unless you are willing either to chase tolerance the rest of your life or have it be worse the next time.

 

[[bu...]]

Sunday I complete my crossover from 30mg temaz to 10 mg valium.  I want to do a daily micro taper.  Do I do cut and hold to a point? Can someone help me get started with a spreadsheet.  I used the liquid titration daily spreadsheet for the crossover.  Is there another spreadsheet for this?,How will i know at what rate to microtaper? Thanks

 

Do you have Rx liquid, or are you going to "roll your own".  Are you planning to use a combo of pills and liquid (that's the best idea)?

 

I would suggest starting a .025mg/day reduction.  This is a really conservative cut rate (its where I started) and can be increased of things seem to be going really well.

 

Once you choose a cut rate, you can can make your own spreadsheet (it really doesn't need to be software-generated).  Remember, the spreadsheet is only a plan, not a rigid schedule.  You can make changes anytime.

[[Ma...]]

I have been following your posts and you seem to know the most about this. Do you feel I should do a cut and hold to possibly 5 and then begin with the titration.?  I would like to use valium pills mixed with a tiny bit of vodka and suspend in water. Thank you.

[[bu...]]

I have been following your posts and you seem to know the most about this. Do you feel I should do a cut and hold to possibly 5 and then begin with the titration.?  I would like to use valium pills mixed with a tiny bit of vodka and suspend in water. Thank you.

 

I would NOT start with C&H!  A daily taper will always be more gentle than a C&H, that's why we do daily tapers.

 

I would start by taking 9mg from tablets and 1mg from liquid for about 10 days, both to stabilize on the valium dose, and to begin to acclimate to liquid.

 

BTW, your diluted vodka mix will be a true solution, not a suspension.  Be sure to use at least 2ml vodka for each mg of valium that you liquify.

[[Ma...]]

I would so appreciate a sample spreadsheet with your recommended rate of decrease . Also titration liquid info.  I'm foggy and anxiety filled. There isn't enough info for me to proceed.  I dont fully understand and dont want to screw up.  This method seems to make the most sense. Thank you.